I Humbly Offer Some Advice To Consider For Andre Ward

BY Michael Woods ON March 04, 2014
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Laywers.

I like some of them. Got a few of them in my family.

I certainly like them.

They get a bad wrap. They can be overly opportunistic, piranhic and parasitic, exploitative and counterproductive. Not as much as conventional wisdom says, though, I don't think.

But in the boxing realm, I have to say, their presence can tend to gum up the works, and their presence in a room, in a situation, oftentimes portends ill things. Ill things, like big bills for the people using their services, at the very least.

Now, I don't know any of the folks tasked with sorting out Andre Ward's promotional situation, I'm guessing they don't kick their dog, and read to their kids before bed, and are good for a healthy donation to the collection plate on Sundays...but as someone who wants the biggest and best matches to be made, I do sort of wish they'd not be involved in Ward's life.

Of course, Ward plots his own course, and has his reasons for enlisting them, and attempting to dis-engage himself from a promotional deal with Goossen-Tutor.

I'm not privy to the inner working of Ward's thinking, it goes without saying, but I was scratching my head on Saturday night, after watching Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. serve notice than Bryan Vera hadn't leaped onto a new level of competence last year. I heard Junior talk post-fight about wanting a scrap with Gennady Golovkin, and I saw the buzz uptick on Twitter, and it got me wondering what the heck is up with Ward.

We saw him in action three months ago, winning a UD12 from Edwin Rodriguez, but as someone who appreciates his exemplary skill in the ring, I have to say he hasn't been active enough the last couple years. Part of that is his body rebelling, injuries...but a large element is also his case to disentangle with Dan Goossen, so he can latch on to another promotional driver, or, perhaps, more so steer his own ship. The Ward deal will play out, and who knows how much longer it will take, but as of today, the lawyers are the ones winning. Instead of fights with Chavez Jr., or Gennady Golovkin, or Bernard Hopkins or even Carl Froch again, the now 30-year-old Ward (27-0) is more focused, it looks like, on the legal calendar, than the fight calendar. I mean, some serious buzz could be manufactured if Ward found a bullhorn and announced that he's tabling his legal beef, and wants a fight with Adonis Stevenson, or Sergey Kovalev, ASAP, to prove he, not Floyd Mayweather, is the best pugilist on the planet. Am I wrong, people?

Two fights in 2011, one in 2012, one in 2013. I'm sorry, but time's a wastin.

Floyd Mayweather can do the two and out schedule and make it work for him, at $33 to $80 million per bout. But for everyone else, frequency of fighting has to, in my opinion, be aimed for.

Now, I do see the potential value in severing a deal, and hashing out a new deal with someone who perhaps can offer a bigger platter of gold. But what about the gold that has been left on the table the last couple years, especially in the last year or so, since Ward has actively tried to dislodge himself from the Goosen stable? You'll recall that in June 2013, the California Commission rebuffed Ward's attempt to break from Goossen. Then, in December 2013, Ward filed suit against Goossen to break the contractual bind. The grapevine says the wheels of justice are grinding slowly for another court date, while the stopwatch for hours billed by attorneys keeps ticking. Hey, maybe it's all worth it for Ward whenever this thing gets settled. But I do wonder if he will look back on this period and just wished he'd played his hand differently.

We never know how a man's body ages, if his vessel will cooperate with him. It would be a tough break to have his fighting infrequency coat him with rust, leave him prone to more injuries, and have him irked, in a few years, that he wasted time on a task that didn't need to be embraced.

Hey, I'm no lawyer, but the advisory part of me can't help but offer this counsel to the pound for pound ace--that Ward finishes the legal wranglings, and gets back to doing what he does best, in the arena best suited for him, the prize fight ring.

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Comment on this article

deepwater2 says:

He already has lawyers and unless they can erase the original contract ward has no case . Ward got $550,000 signing bonus , ward had training expenses and travel expenses paid for , goosen has paved his entire career , got him into the super six and ward was happy with each payday . Ward is on the shelf because of his injuries not goosen . Goosen got him 2 million to fight that b level guy in the last fight . Ward might be best boxer but he is not a good moneymaker . The Cali commission sided with goosen for a reason . Ward needs to stay healthy and get in the ring against top guys . Chavez Froch ggg Stevenson Sergei k are all more popular . Get in the ring or dancing with the stars but shut it until the contract expires .

amayseng says:

There are MANY great fights for Ward, I did not realize he has been that inactive the last few years.

I enjoy watching him, hope to see him step up his activity.

brownsugar says:

I read up on the dispute about 8months ago after Ward stated his case on the jim lampleys show.
And I wondered why he would want to kick against the pricks.... So I read a few articles. Everything I read said the contract with Goosen was iron-clad.
And signing with James Prince didnt invalidate his original contract.

boxing promoters have never been known to be a sympathetic lot when comes to losing revenue.
.. You can't just divorce your promoter for psychological pain and suffering.
Wards ability to fight and earn a profit in the ring is a tangible product that is at least on a tempoarary basis,..the current property of Goosen.

But its understandable that a fighter would want to cut out the middleman and be his own boss. Or at least be able to alter his own course.

Even though Mayweather is a free agent he is still dependant upon GB Promotions vast infrastructure to distribute and market his fights. But Floyd also single handedly injected Showtime with $75mil in cash while raising their subscription viewedshp to the point to where the cable giant has suddenly become a serious competitor to HBO.
Ward lived up to his potential of becoming an elite fighter. But no promoter worth his weight in front row tickets would allow a catch like Ward to just walk away like a jilted lover.
Well I guess all that has already been said several times over
Nothing personal just business.
After GGG takes care of Chavez Jr...I can sense a Ward /GGG clash brewing in the future.

The Shadow says:

I read up on the dispute about 8months ago after Ward stated his case on the jim lampleys show.
And I wondered why he would want to kick against the pricks.... So I read a few articles. Everything I read said the contract with Goosen was iron-clad.
And signing with James Prince didnt invalidate his original contract.

boxing promoters have never been known to be a sympathetic lot when comes to losing revenue.
.. You can't just divorce your promoter for psychological pain and suffering.
Wards ability to fight and earn a profit in the ring is a tangible product that is at least on a tempoarary basis,..the current property of Goosen.

But its understandable that a fighter would want to cut out the middleman and be his own boss. Or at least be able to alter his own course.

Even though Mayweather is a free agent he is still dependant upon GB Promotions vast infrastructure to distribute and market his fights. But Floyd also single handedly injected Showtime with $75mil in cash while raising their subscription viewedshp to the point to where the cable giant has suddenly become a serious competitor to HBO.
Ward lived up to his potential of becoming an elite fighter. But no promoter worth his weight in front row tickets would allow a catch like Ward to just walk away like a jilted lover.
Well I guess all that has already been said several times over
Nothing personal just business.
After GGG takes care of Chavez Jr...I can sense a Ward /GGG clash brewing in the future.


You're inspired today, aren't you?! Man, you're on fire! Lol, "like a jilted lover." Everything was on point.

On a totally different note, what's the over/under on Haymon signing a) Bradley, b) Pacquiao or c) both by 2015?

I wouldn't be shocked to see that happen. Despite what RG says, Michael Koncz quite simply "concz" Manny too much. Pacquiao with Al Haymon becomes President of the Philippines. A new religion will be named after him. Haymon and the pack of lil Pacquiaos will be collecting tax free church dough for generations to come.

Like Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard said, if you really wanna get rich, start a religion. Haymon will be his first prophet. RG can be his first caliph. (Just kidding, lol...)

MannyPak, while gullible followers preach thy name for centuries to come, not even you on your most epic gambling binges will be able to put a dent in the family fortune.

And you know what Swizzy says: "Fighters thank Al Haymon, THEN they thank God." So too shall your disciples.

There's only one question. Will his cultural loyalty allow it?

Radam G says:

Hehehehe! The Shadow, you are a funny dude. Holla at "Random Topics" and smell Bradley. Al Ha€¥€m would paid him to wash his arse at least a couple of days before a bout. Have ever smell Big Foot coming down that aisle? Holla!

brownsugar says:

You're inspired today, aren't you?! Man, you're on fire! Lol, "like a jilted lover." Everything was on point.

On a totally different note, what's the over/under on Haymon signing a) Bradley, b) Pacquiao or c) both by 2015?

I wouldn't be shocked to see that happen. Despite what RG says, Michael Koncz quite simply "concz" Manny too much. Pacquiao with Al Haymon becomes President of the Philippines. A new religion will be named after him. Haymon and the pack of lil Pacquiaos will be collecting tax free church dough for generations to come.

Like Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard said, if you really wanna get rich, start a religion. Haymon will be his first prophet. RG can be his first caliph. (Just kidding, lol...)

MannyPak, while gullible followers preach thy name for centuries to come, not even you on your most epic gambling binges will be able to put a dent in the family fortune.

And you know what Swizzy says: "Fighters thank Al Haymon, THEN they thank God." So too shall your disciples.

There's only one question. Will his cultural loyalty allow it?



Hey you've got a good sense of humor Shadow LOL>..

The Shadow says:

Hey you've got a good sense of humor Shadow LOL>..


Hey, you can't spell "Allah" without "Al." Notice how Erislandy Lara says it. Almost sounds like "God."

AL-HAYMU AKBAR!!!

The Shadow says:

Hehehehe! The Shadow, you are a funny dude. Holla at "Random Topics" and smell Bradley. Al Ha€¥€m would paid him to wash his arse at least a couple of days before a bout. Have you ever smell Big Foot coming down that aisle? Holla!


LOL smell Bradley? He doesn't wash his arse or something? I'll be heading over there now!

gibola says:

Agree totally - there is only Kovalev or Stevenson for him to fight unless he goes for the Froch-Groves winner. Perhaps the fact that he might have to go to Canada or England is the real reason. Ward is a helluva fighter but remember when a whole host of guys lost their titles and unbeaten records in the Super 6 travelling across Europe and the Atlantic. Ward had home advantage every time and he's maintained it since. Perhaps like PBF his 0 means more than his legacy?

Carmine Cas says:

He already has lawyers and unless they can erase the original contract ward has no case . Ward got $550,000 signing bonus , ward had training expenses and travel expenses paid for , goosen has paved his entire career , got him into the super six and ward was happy with each payday . Ward is on the shelf because of his injuries not goosen . Goosen got him 2 million to fight that b level guy in the last fight . Ward might be best boxer but he is not a good moneymaker . The Cali commission sided with goosen for a reason . Ward needs to stay healthy and get in the ring against top guys . Chavez Froch ggg Stevenson Sergei k are all more popular . Get in the ring or dancing with the stars but shut it until the contract expires .


I completely agree, although if he is unhappy it could affect his performance. But if he looks at the big picture it would make sense to suck it up till expiration and then do your own thing.

Carmine Cas says:

He already has lawyers and unless they can erase the original contract ward has no case . Ward got $550,000 signing bonus , ward had training expenses and travel expenses paid for , goosen has paved his entire career , got him into the super six and ward was happy with each payday . Ward is on the shelf because of his injuries not goosen . Goosen got him 2 million to fight that b level guy in the last fight . Ward might be best boxer but he is not a good moneymaker . The Cali commission sided with goosen for a reason . Ward needs to stay healthy and get in the ring against top guys . Chavez Froch ggg Stevenson Sergei k are all more popular . Get in the ring or dancing with the stars but shut it until the contract expires .


I completely agree, although if he is unhappy it could affect his performance. But if he looks at the big picture it would make sense to suck it up till expiration and then do your own thing.

Carmine Cas says:

You're inspired today, aren't you?! Man, you're on fire! Lol, "like a jilted lover." Everything was on point.

On a totally different note, what's the over/under on Haymon signing a) Bradley, b) Pacquiao or c) both by 2015?

I wouldn't be shocked to see that happen. Despite what RG says, Michael Koncz quite simply "concz" Manny too much. Pacquiao with Al Haymon becomes President of the Philippines. A new religion will be named after him. Haymon and the pack of lil Pacquiaos will be collecting tax free church dough for generations to come.

Like Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard said, if you really wanna get rich, start a religion. Haymon will be his first prophet. RG can be his first caliph. (Just kidding, lol...)

MannyPak, while gullible followers preach thy name for centuries to come, not even you on your most epic gambling binges will be able to put a dent in the family fortune.

And you know what Swizzy says: "Fighters thank Al Haymon, THEN they thank God." So too shall your disciples.

There's only one question. Will his cultural loyalty allow it?


I can totally see big Al getting Bradley, that would make GB's WW stable that much more interesting. It seems like everyone is conning poor Manny.

The Shadow says:

I can totally see big Al getting Bradley, that would make GB's WW stable that much more interesting. It seems like everyone is conning poor Manny.


He'll still be TR but it could get GBP guys back on HBO. Really, this whole freeze-out is hurting HBO more than it hurts GBP. Ken Hershman, the perennial runner up, due to his thinking, is destined to never be number one in his life.

Carmine Cas says:

Yeah he could, but I thought HBO was not working with GB? Unless they're softening on that stance. If Al Haymon signs Manny that would probably severe his relationship with TR.

The Shadow says:

Yeah he could, but I thought HBO was not working with GB? Unless they're softening on that stance. If Al Haymon signs Manny that would probably severe his relationship with TR.


1) that's my point. If Haymon gets Bradley, an HBO fighter, like they just did Stevenson, it could be a step in the direction of getting GBP guys back on HBO airwaves.

2) If Manny signs with Haymon, it likely happens once his promotional contract expires by the end of the year.

brownsugar says:

I like your rationale Shadow ... Near flawless as always... Only Bradley signed the rest of his boxing youth away to fight Paq... And would Paq leave his cozy nest at TR to become a target on the firing squad of a group of fresh hungrey young lions...your thoughts?

amayseng says:

Back to Ward, he and his trainer have been verbally critical of a few fighters as of late.

They have been slandering GGG for possibly moving up to fight Chavez Jr saying he is scared to fight Ward at 168. However, two things, one, Ward said he would come down to 160 to fight Floyd, but wont to fight GGG, and secondly GGG's trainer clearly stated that team GGG want to win ALL belts at MW first before moving up...however, if these fights can not be made then they would consider a jump up.

and lets be honest, JR is a cash cow, Ward is not.

I am a fan of Ward but he has been verbally hurting himself the last few months.

He needs to get back in the ring.

The Shadow says:

I like your rationale Shadow ... Near flawless as always... Only Bradley signed the rest of his boxing youth away to fight Paq... And would Paq leave his cozy nest at TR to become a target on the firing squad of a group of fresh hungrey young lions...your thoughts?


He's not going to make it that far. But yeah, why wouldn't he leave?! Not saying he will but logic dictates that he should.

Under that hypothetical scenario, he's going to get at least two fights with Floyd -- something they discussed behind the scenes in 2011 (Jeff M. And M. Concz led talks, I believe) -- then receive a couple of tailor made global paydays before riding off into the sunset.

Dd you guys hear Leo Santa Cruz' speech about Big Al?? He says the only time Al says "no" is when Leo tries to pay money back he owes. He even bailed out Tarver, a guy who has no marketibility, no future, no earning potential. That's a good dude man.

Amayseng, as for Ward, I actually understand where he's coming from. GGG's team has said "anyone from 54-68." Then when Ward wants to fight, Loeffler and Sanchez say "we gotta clean out 160."

Next thing you know, word comes out K2's negotiating with TWO 168-pounders.

I understand both sides, it's all business, marketing and promoting. GGG would fight him in heartbeat (he's a straight killer after all).

His team has no desire to. Why?

As you say, Ward is not a cash cow. And it's only natural for his team to want to transition him into a new weight class. Chavez and Froch couldn't be any better gradual steps up in competition -- along with the add bonus of getting big money -- before risking a loss to the real champion, who isn't really a draw.

It makes sense on both ends. No one is wrong. But if we gotta call bullsh!t, that will no doubt have to go to GGG's team.

Carmine Cas says:

He's not going to make it that far. But yeah, why wouldn't he leave?! Not saying he will but logic dictates that he should.

Under that hypothetical scenario, he's going to get at least two fights with Floyd -- something they discussed behind the scenes in 2011 (Jeff M. And M. Concz led talks, I believe) -- then receive a couple of tailor made global paydays before riding off into the sunset.

Dd you guys hear Leo Santa Cruz' speech about Big Al?? He says the only time Al says "no" is when Leo tries to pay money back he owes. He even bailed out Tarver, a guy who has no marketibility, no future, no earning potential. That's a good dude man.

Amayseng, as for Ward, I actually understand where he's coming from. GGG's team has said "anyone from 54-68." Then when Ward wants to fight, Loeffler and Sanchez say "we gotta clean out 160."

Next thing you know, word comes out K2's negotiating with TWO 168-pounders.

I understand both sides, it's all business, marketing and promoting. GGG would fight him in heartbeat (he's a straight killer after all).

His team has no desire to. Why?

As you say, Ward is not a cash cow. And it's only natural for his team to want to transition him into a new weight class. Chavez and Froch couldn't be any better gradual steps up in competition -- along with the add bonus of getting big money -- before risking a loss to the real champion, who isn't really a draw.

It makes sense on both ends. No one is wrong. But if we gotta call bullsh!t, that will no doubt have to go to GGG's team.


Floyd is the cash cow of boxing, anyone with in 3 weight classes is calling him out lol just like De La Hoya. And when Ward said Floyd's the only one he'd go down to 160 to fight I think he was letting his emotions get the best of him because Mayweather was criticizing his marketability as a fighter when Andre was supporting his NorCal brethren Robert Guerrero. But I think Ward to still attempt to drop down to 160 to fight Floyd, it's worth the pay day, GGG not yet. Virgil Hunter has been a bit vocal the last couple months, but about all of his fighters.

I guess if you take care of your clients, it goes a long way. When does Bradley's extension expire?

brownsugar says:

No crime there Shadow...

Also regarding GGG, There are at least 4 Top fighters between 160 and 175 Who want Chavez Jr ... A fighter who gets the highest non PPV ratings on HBO...not only will GGG get scene....he will get PAID... Ward can wait... And when they do fight GGG will be selling the lions share of the tickets ...but its a fight the world will watch.

deepwater2 says:

Floyd is the cash cow of boxing, anyone with in 3 weight classes is calling him out lol just like De La Hoya. And when Ward said Floyd's the only one he'd go down to 160 to fight I think he was letting his emotions get the best of him because Mayweather was criticizing his marketability as a fighter when Andre was supporting his NorCal brethren Robert Guerrero. But I think Ward to still attempt to drop down to 160 to fight Floyd, it's worth the pay day, GGG not yet. Virgil Hunter has been a bit vocal the last couple months, but about all of his fighters.

I guess if you take care of your clients, it goes a long way. When does Bradley's extension expire?

I don't think Bradley is going anywhere , he has said time and time again he is satisfied with top rank. He is fighting PAC again and has been matched against top guys time and time again. The arum contract is probably iron clad. I think Virgil would do better for his fighters to let their fights speak for themselves.

The Shadow says:

Floyd is the cash cow of boxing, anyone with in 3 weight classes is calling him out lol just like De La Hoya. And when Ward said Floyd's the only one he'd go down to 160 to fight I think he was letting his emotions get the best of him because Mayweather was criticizing his marketability as a fighter when Andre was supporting his NorCal brethren Robert Guerrero. But I think Ward to still attempt to drop down to 160 to fight Floyd, it's worth the pay day, GGG not yet. Virgil Hunter has been a bit vocal the last couple months, but about all of his fighters.

I guess if you take care of your clients, it goes a long way. When does Bradley's extension expire?


You nailed it. He wasn't serious. And they have talked since on the phone, he would not fight Floyd. I would even go as far as to say they are borderline friends. Floyd called him right before his fight with Kessler and gave him a pep talk. Ward idolizes and emulates Floyd like you wouldn't believe. He and Hunter incorporate so much of Floyd into their training, they even have a play they call named after him.

Realistically, he wouldn't go to 160 for anyone. Ward doesn't play his hand publicly. He keeps his hands close. He would go to 164 for Martinez but he's not telling anyone that. He also doesn't reveal what he walks around at. He's pretty shrewd and strategic.

The Shadow says:

No crime there Shadow...

Also regarding GGG, There are at least 4 Top fighters between 160 and 175 Who want Chavez Jr ... A fighter who gets the highest non PPV ratings on HBO...not only will GGG get scene....he will get PAID... Ward can wait... And when they do fight GGG will be selling the lions share of the tickets ...but its a fight the world will watch.


Exactly.

kenhissner says:

Intersting article. I was not aware that Ward was not busier. I believe he is one of the best P4P and hope he and my personal P4P best Gennady Golovkin do not clash at this time. GGG will probably never get Mayweather to come in at 154 like Canelo but there is always hope. Mayweather has 5 fights left on his HBO contract and probably hopes to finish at 50-0 surpassing Rocky Marciano's 49-0. Ward could easily move up to 175 where more exciting matches could be had since he fought that high in the amateurs.

Maybe his TV work means more to him than boxing. It may be part of the problem but who knows? His promoter isn't the best known to handle a super champion but they certainly have the vehicle in Ward. Let's hope he can at least fight 2x per year.

brownsugar says:

Good points kenhissner... Ward and his trainer Hunter have also predicted that Ward would eventually compete at Heavyweight.
But at this point in Time Ward looks like a medium sized super middleweight.
And I doubt he goes up to cruiserweight.
I think he feels confident calling out GGG and Chavez Jr... But he's not mentioning having any potential fights with Kovalev or Shumenov. I think his silence says a lot.

The Shadow says:

Good points kenhissner... Ward and his trainer Hunter have also predicted that Ward would eventually compete at Heavyweight.
But at this point in Time Ward looks like a medium sized super middleweight.
And I doubt he goes up to cruiserweight.
I think he feels confident calling out GGG and Chavez Jr... But he's not mentioning having any potential fights with Kovalev or Shumenov. I think his silence says a lot.


Top guys don't like to give free publicity or call others out. They feel its beneath them. Notice how Floyd pretends not to know names. Like his interview before his fighter Badou got jacked.

Despite having mentioned him many times before and having had the guy train out his gym, he pretended not to remember Augustus' name so the interviewer could say it. When the interviewer had no idea who he was talking about, he suddenly remembered his name, his previous name and how he had changed his name from Burton to Augustus.

For two years, he refused to even acknowledge Manny Pacquiao or say his name because TR was using Floyd to promote fights so he didn't even wanna give them anything.

Ward doesn't like to mention guys either unless the perception is that they're way below him in terms of stature and accomplishments. Ward had made it clear, "I'll fight any fighter. Ay fighter," with emphasis on "any." And I believe him. Including a Klitschko.

The Good Doctor says:

Good points kenhissner... Ward and his trainer Hunter have also predicted that Ward would eventually compete at Heavyweight.
But at this point in Time Ward looks like a medium sized super middleweight.
And I doubt he goes up to cruiserweight.
I think he feels confident calling out GGG and Chavez Jr... But he's not mentioning having any potential fights with Kovalev or Shumenov. I think his silence says a lot.




Couldn't I argue that him mentioning GGG and Chavez Jr and not Kovalev or Shumenov is more about money than anything else. Ward is 30 years old, a supremely dominant fighter, multiple time champion with a ridiculous resume but has yet to have a big payday. Combine that with the fact that he has said he only wants to fight for so long, has had a significant injury, and has a burgeoning broadcasting career, I think the "money clock" is ticking for Ward. I love Kovalev and Shumenov as fighters, but they would not bring the cash or publicity that a fight with GGG or Chavez Jr bring.

Radam G says:

And it is prizefighting for the BIG bucks. Not pride fighting for the muck-a-mucks. Holla!

brownsugar says:

Good Doc.. I think you all make an excellent point (RG and Shadow too).
Not guts and glory but cash flow.

brownsugar says:

Good Doc.. I think you all make an excellent point (RG and Shadow too).
Not guts and glory but cash flow.

The Good Doctor says:

Good Doc.. I think you all make an excellent point (RG and Shadow too).
Not guts and glory but cash flow.


You are right. I understand it but it does make you long for the days when boxers fought for guts, glory, and even more flat out hatred. Anybody remember when Larry Holmes tried to drop kick Berbick? That was a mix of all three especially hatred. Larry then kicked his tail in a title fight not long after that. Good ol' unadulterated violence. Love it. LOL

brownsugar says:

Lol...that's true about Hagler , Duran or Holmes versus anybody. Bad intentions

The Shadow says:

You are right. I understand it but it does make you long for the days when boxers fought for guts, glory, and even more flat out hatred. Anybody remember when Larry Holmes tried to drop kick Berbick? That was a mix of all three especially hatred. Larry then kicked his tail in a title fight not long after that. Good ol' unadulterated violence. Love it. LOL


Doc believe it or not, that was actually an OLD Larry Holmes doing that! He was like 41 doing drop kicks. Berwick wanted a rematch. I think he called Larry's wife a call girl or something? Lol Larry will drop kick for his woman's honor

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