YES OR NO? Floyd Mayweather Is THE BEST EVER

BY Michael Woods ON September 17, 2013
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MayweatherAlvarez Hogan90 ad115Did you all catch what was emblazoned on Floyd Mayweather's ballcap plopped on his head as he was waiting for the decision to be announced after he showed Canelo Alvarez that he is--join the club--not in the same league as a prizefighter as Floyd?

"TBE."

Stands for "The Best Ever."

Mayweather has now and again offered this self-assessment, that he is THE BEST ever, slotted ahead of Sugar Ray Robinson, Henry Armstrong, all the usual pugilists who take residence on lists of the brightest lights to ever lace on the leather and horsehair mitts. But following his tutorial of Alvarez, who entered with a 42-0-1 mark, a few more naysayers, folks unwilling, unable or uninclined to tab Floyd as the best of the best, re-assessed.

Current boxer, two-division champion and TV analyst Paul Malignaggi went public with his contention that Floyd is the all-time all-star. That means that in his mind, if we had a time machine, with all things being equal, Floyd would beat those Sugar Rays, and yes, handle Thomas Hearns, and Roberto Duran, and Shane Mosley at his tip top prime.

"The people who say that Floyd isn't the best all-time, I bet most or all never took a single punch in the face," Malignaggi told me, after I asked for a bit more to clarify material in a Monday ESPNNewYork.com post. "When you do, especially when you do it for a living, you understand just how difficult it is to do what Floyd Mayweather does. No one in history would beat him, he's the greatest of all time, bar none."

So, when the "haters" say that Mayweather ducked Antonio Margarito at his most fearsome, or Kostya Tszyu at his apex, and that he would have lost to them....?

"He would have beat them," Malignaggi said. "Every generation has fights that don't happen, that includes Sugar Ray Robinson. No one should ever be penalized because they are in this era and not in the era of 50 years ago."

Readers, weigh in, in Our Forum. Let's discuss. This is provocative stuff, but I think even if you don't agree, there is merit in the thesis, because Malignaggi is a damned fine ring general, and yes, does deserve extra attention being paid to his declaration, because he has and does toil in the arena. Is Floyd truly "TBE?" Has Mayweather convinced you? Moved a step closer to being No. 1, but isn't there yet? What would he have to do to get there? Your three cents, please.

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Comment on this article

puncher says:

Best ever! Sugar ray was fast, but not a good defender. Hearnes could box and hit with power, but ran out of gas and had no legs. Duran was good at 140...could punch and hold a punch, but Sugar frustrtaed him the second time...just think what MM would have done. Can go on and on.

Radam G says:

YES! Money May is the best defense boxer EVER! Willie Pep is the best offensive boxer EVER! Holla!

Hop says:

Absolutely NOT! -- and this current foot-licking craze of hero worship with such little historical perspective bugs me.

SouthPawFlo says:

Overall skill set, longevity at the highest level, offensive accuracy, defensive effectiveness, chin, & conditioning you gotta look at him as ONE of the best ever, I can't say he's the best because I'm not old enough to say I've saw any fights before the late 80's....

Grimm says:

No one should ever be penalized because they are in this era and not in the era of 50 years ago."


Sorry Paulie, but yes - live in the wrong era, and "if" will forever be attached to thy name.

The Shadow says:

Mayweather is a fraud. If pay close attention, he only faces Mexicans, Latinos, Africans and the occasional African American. TALK ABOUT CHERRYPICKING!

What a fraud!

He hasn't faced a prime, ready, motivated Caucasian with punching power since Jerry Cooper. And that fight was clearly a FIX! Come on, it's IMPOSSIBLE to go down from a jab to the belly unless you do so willingly (and transactionally).

Think about it! When was the last time he faced a hungry (but not too hungry -- he has to make weight safely), ready, primed white man who was poised to send his *** back to slavery.

His dad fought one recently. We all saw the outcome. The same would happen to Jr. He would no longer be Joy Junior -- he would be Misery Mayweather.

His worst fear is staring into the eyes of an opponent who 50 years ago would've lynched him.

The infamous sparring session with the White Assassin Paul Spadafora only confirmed this nightmare.

Let's keep it real. The guy is fooling you all right before your eyes for Christ's sakes!! He's avoiding white fighters like the plague. Everyone knows Black vs. White is the commercial wet dream.

Fighting Spadafora would do 1.5-2 million buys with a finger snap.

Then why is he avoiding it???? Instead he fights Mexicans who everyone knows can't fight for s***. The only quality one he fought was JMM and that was clearly a fix.

Watch him fight a stud like Mikkel Kessler, GGG or Carl Froch. They won't really count because they're not American but it'd be a start!

Floyd's a freakin' fraudulent fighter.

The Shadow says:

He also avoids Cubans! Floyd walks around at 145-150, just like Nonito Donaire. This means he can easily go to featherweight and take on Da Jackal Rigondeaux -- a proficient scavenger who would surely prey on the rigor mortis that would be Floyd after the surgical elimination that would take place inside THAT SQUARED CIRCLE!!!!!!!!!

He'll face any black man from any country but Cuba. Notice how they call themselves the Can Man because AfriCans, MexiCans Can get it (or something).

HE's telling you the truth before your eyes! THEY ONLY FIGHT CANS -- especially tomato CANS.

Notice there's no "CAN" in Cuban. He'd be the BAN Man -- because like Evan Fields, he wold be BANNED from competition from sudden deterioration in skill.

But don't mistake exposé/revelation for deterioration!

Once he becomes the BAN MAN or the 'Sian Man (Cauca-sian), then I will give him props. But surely the fraud will buy them off should he ever beat them....

SouthPawFlo says:

Can we judge Floyd on what he has done in the ring and not shoulda coulda woulda situations....

Radam G says:

Hold your horses, The Shadow! Those bytches are bucking you. And both the late, great John Arthur Johnson [boxing name Jack Johnson] and the late, great Walker (George) Smith [boxing name Sugar Ray Robinson] are turning in their graves about what you said about Money May being a "fraud." No WAY! No HOW! It is all about da hurt bitnezz prizefighting. And there are optical illusion everywhere. Straight-up magical jive. But once you know how the trick is done, you KNOW!

Every great fighter -- black, white, Latino or Asian -- get down with the ducky duck and cherry picking. And those optical illusions to the know nothing eyes would may them "fraud."

More than a 100 years ago, after "Unforgivable Blackness" Jack Johnson chased around three-different reigning [white] heavyweight kings, and finally got the shot against Canadian Tommy Burns in Down Under, Ole Jackie Boy refused to give Black Canadian Sam Langford and black U.S. Southerner Joe Jeanette a shot because of their ethnicity and color.

UB JJ, proudly announced that he was "drawing the colorline" against fighting blacks [and foreigners]." Holla at Youtube and get a peep and listen to UB JJ video biographies.

And take Sugar Ray Robinson. He ducked the whole "Black Murder Row," and singled out mostly short-in-height Italian for his most famous beatdowns. He clearly noted that he didn't want to fight Coloreds "because ain't no [sic] money in fighting hard-headed ______. These dumb _____ will fight for you 10 penny [sic]."

The Shadow, you are good at finding the truth, and the whole truth. So I know that you can find the above with no problem. Don't knock Money May. He's business first -- prizefighting biz. Not an iota of pridefighting. That pridefighting syet will betray you.

Not too long ago, almost everybody and dey momma told Da Manny to double fudge Marquez and ride into the sunset of history having whupped his arse three times in actually -- two times officially and a bad-decision draw, because one judge didn't know how to flicking count knockdowns because the judge was on the take and fix.

Double Money-Money May is super legit, because everyone in da game is full of syet. It comes with the territory. C.J. Roth is a fraudulent judge who fixes fights with her draw scoring to shake up the bets and give the down-low in da know da BIG-BETTING-MOOLAH WINS. Retired -- thank's to heaven -- Joe Cortez was a fraudulent "fair, but firm" referee because he'd fixed bouts with convenient stoppages while allegedly collecting betting money post fights.

There are no conspiracies everywhere in boxing. There are just natural, designed-that-way optical illusions. Holla!

The Shadow says:

Hold your horses, The Shadow! Those bytches are bucking you. And both the late, great John Arthur Johnson [boxing name Jack Johnson] and the late, great Walker (George) Smith [boxing name Sugar Ray Robinson] are turning in their graves about what you said about Money May being a "fraud." No WAY! No HOW! It is all about da hurt bitnezz prizefighting. And there are optical illusion everywhere. Straight-up magical jive. But once you know how the trick is done, you KNOW!

Every great fighter -- black, white, Latino or Asian -- get down with the ducky duck and cherry picking. And those optical illusions to the know nothing eyes would may them "fraud."

More than a 100 years ago, after "Unforgivable Blackness" Jack Johnson chased around three-different reigning [white] heavyweight kings, and finally got the shot against Canadian Tommy Burns in Down Under, Ole Jackie Boy refused to give Black Canadian Sam Langford and black U.S. Southerner Joe Jeanette a shot because of their ethnicity and color.

UB JJ, proudly announced that he was "drawing the colorline" against fighting blacks [and foreigners]." Holla at Youtube and get a peep and listen to UB JJ video biographies.

And take Sugar Ray Robinson. He ducked the whole "Black Murder Row," and singled out mostly short-in-height Italian for his most famous beatdowns. He clearly noted that he didn't want to fight Coloreds "because ain't no [sic] money in fighting hard-headed ______. These dumb _____ will fight for you 10 penny [sic]."

The Shadow, you are good at finding the truth, and the whole truth. So I know that you can find the above with no problem. Don't knock Money May. He's business first -- prizefighting biz. Not an iota of pridefighting. That pridefighting syet will betray you.

Not too long ago, almost everybody and dey momma told Da Manny to double fudge Marquez and ride into the sunset of history having whupped his arse three times in actually -- two times officially and a bad-decision draw, because one judge didn't know how to flicking count knockdowns because the judge was on the take and fix.

Double Money-Money May is super legit, because everyone in da game is full of syet. It comes with the territory. C.J. Roth is a fraudulent judge who fixes fights with her draw scoring to shake up the bets and give the down-low in da know da BIG-BETTING-MOOLAH WINS. Retired -- thank's to heaven -- Joe Cortez was a fraudulent "fair, but firm" referee because he'd fixed bouts with convenient stoppages while allegedly collecting betting money post fights.

There are no conspiracies everywhere in boxing. There are just natural, designed-that-way optical illusions. Holla!


Always informative, Radam! As for the wrong score in the first Manny-Marquez fight, that has been blown out of proportion.

According to Harold Lederman, in a round with more than two knockdowns, "most judges will NOT go below 10-7 because it puts the other guy too far out of the fight."

(54:10 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cW7oj7QosjA)

It wasn't really an error. It was a judgment call.

As for Floyd, do you really not agree that he hasn't fought a real white threat since power punching boxing savant Jerry Cooper??

And come on Radam, du ved jeg laver sjov, ikke? Jeg elsker Floyd hehehehe...Ako sa pagiging lubos palabiro!!

Hop says:

Questionable whether Mayweather could have beaten [I]any[/I] of 'The Four Kings', let alone all of them. There is no comparison in terms of level of competition. That was back in those wonderful days of boxing when the best truly did fight the best. On nine different terrific nights of boxing Leonard, Hagler, Hearns, & Duran mixed it up, and they all fought each other at least once. Floyd belongs in their class (which I think is a HUGE compliment to pay him), but I'll not go beyond that.

amayseng says:

agreed Hop, floyd has the skills to compete with the four kings, but he doesnt beat any of them...

imho that is.

the Roast says:

No.

The Shadow says:

BTW, did you know Evan Fields actually has a son named EVAN??? HAHAHAHAHA that killed me!!

DaveB says:

Best ducker. YES

kidcanvas says:

i disagree with paulie..styles make the fight and no way he would beat hearns especially... he dont throew enough shots to beat those kind of guys like hearns duran leonard etc.. they were great and threw tons . its just different today regardless of malinaggis thoughts .. you have to compare to come up with a thought on it

Grimm says:

[QUOTE=The Shadow;36841]...du ved jeg laver sjov, ikke? Jeg elsker Floyd hehehehe...[/QUOTE]

You danish, Shadow, or just google translation?

fightscorecollector says:

NO, could be possible top 10, at 147 i wuld bet my house on Tommy Hearns beating Floyd.

Radam G says:

One does not have to be able to beat everybodee and dey momma to be the best ever. Willie Pep was the best ever P4P. But he could not beat Sandy Sadler with an army. And GOAT ALI was the best heavyweight ever, but he could beat with Doug Jones and Ken Norton with nukes.

My point is Money May is/was beatable but smart enough not to fight the Pittsburg Kid, late, great Vernon "The Viper" Forrest, the prime, dangerous Tony Margarito and younger Da Manny. Don't hate, RELATE!

I don't believe he could've beat Hitman Hearns, but I think he could beat the late, great Sugar Ray Robinson who ducked the whole Black Murder Row and whupped up on a finished Homicide Hank Armstrong and a light-punching Kid Galavan. Holla!

Hop says:

Thomas Hearns is my favorite boxer of all-time, yet I think Mayweather would have stood a chance against him, mainly for two reasons, working in combination: 1) I'm not sure I've seen a fighter better at not getting hit cleanly than Floyd, and 2) One of Tommy's susceptible areas (though it was not as poor as many make out) was his stamina.

If Mayweather was able to avoid The Hit-man's fearsome power for enough rounds, Hearns would begin to tire as the water grew deeper. Then, in his artful fashion, Floyd could begin to connect with his sharpshooting more and more. And then ... who knows? Like every mythical match up it's filled with "ifs" and "buts". I would love to have seen it, however. I'd be pulling for Hearns all the way, and I'm not picking a winner, but my objective side forces me to allow for the [U]possibility[/U] of a Mayweather win not dissimilar to Leonard-Hearns I.

The Shadow says:

[QUOTE=Radam G;36880]One does not have to be able to beat everybodee and dey momma to be the best ever. Willie Pep was the best ever P4P. But he could not beat Sandy Sadler with an army. And GOAT ALI was the best heavyweight ever, but he could beat with Doug Jones and Ken Norton with nukes.

My point is Money May is/was beatable but smart enough not to fight the Pittsburg Kid, late, great Vernon "The Viper" Forrest, the prime, dangerous Tony Margarito and younger Da Manny. Don't hate, RELATE!

I don't believe he could've beat Hitman Hearns, but I think he could beat the late, great Sugar Ray Robinson who ducked the whole Black Murder Row and whupped up on a finished Homicide Hank Armstrong and a light-punching Kid Galavan. Holla![/QUOTE]

He ducked a Jerry Cooper rematch.

Carmine Cas says:

Paulie has always been on Floyd's d**k, no but he builds a strong case for greatest defensive fighter of all time.

During the era of the 4 Kings, Mayweather would have had tough time as we all can agree. He would get beat up, especially by Leonard who already made him his son.

Damn Shadow take it easy lol, I don't see Floyd beating SRR either

dino da vinci says:

[QUOTE=Radam G;36880]One does not have to be able to beat everybodee and dey momma to be the best ever. Willie Pep was the best ever P4P. But he could not beat Sandy Sadler with an army. And GOAT ALI was the best heavyweight ever, but he could beat with Doug Jones and Ken Norton with nukes.

My point is Money May is/was beatable but smart enough not to fight the Pittsburg Kid, late, great Vernon "The Viper" Forrest, the prime, dangerous Tony Margarito and younger Da Manny. Don't hate, RELATE!

I don't believe he could've beat Hitman Hearns, but I think he could beat the late, great Sugar Ray Robinson who ducked the whole Black Murder Row and whupped up on a finished Homicide Hank Armstrong and a light-punching Kid Galavan. Holla![/QUOTE]

The usual great work by the master. Radam is correct. You must look at the body of work produced by the fighter. This is the beauty and intrigue of match ups. I love Ken Norton. Norton gave Ali trouble in all three outings. Does that make him the better heavyweight? The answer is no. Is Iran Barkley, who holds a KO win and a Spt Dec win over Tommy Hearns in their two go's the better of the two? Most people would tell you no, me included. Radam does state that the legendary Willie Pep could not beat Sandy Saddler with an army in tow. That's what the films tell us. What they don't tell us is Pep was involved in a plane crash that experienced loss of lives, Willie having his back broken in the crash, and being told not only would he not be fighting again, he may not be walking either. He declined a large (for the time) cash settlement and returned to the ring. Because, in his words, that's what I love to do. While never the same fighter, he added many victories to his record post crash. Two final points: as I believed I've told this story in this space before, I'm at Vinny Pazienza's amateur debut, held in a ballpark. I'm in the grandstands. I glance to my left at the gentleman closest to me sitting alone and notice it's Pep. We made eye contact and I smiled and said Hello, Champ. He smiled back and said You know who I am? I replied as an Italian I was required to by law. We sat through the entire card talking boxing through the ages. And as anyone who has ever sat through what can be a marathon of amateur bouts, we covered a lot of ground and I must say he really (really, really, really) knew the sport. I think I impressed him as well. I last spoke to him shortly before he passed. We discussed his good friend Rocky Marciano at length, how there was no doubt Marciano would have beaten Tyson. Two things in this one thing. I thought enough of both Pep and Marciano to name my sons after them and if ever a super computer is built and determined either man was the best ever, I wouldn't be surprised. Of course we could add another two dozen names and I wouldn't be surprised if one of those topped the list. Second point: I've always had a problem writing about people I know and met. I can never seem to strike the right balance so I usually just avoid the topic completely. Problem is, it can sometimes weaken a point I'm trying to make. An example. I'm writing the introductory letter to a boxing record book that was published back in the '90's. I'm mentioning up and coming talent and in my draft right before we print it I change Shane Mosley's name and insert another fighter's because I see Shane every day at LA Boxing and don't wish to come across as a cheerleader. I despise hidden agendas, con artists, wanna-be-gangsta's, weasels, etc., so when I do take the time to type something, it's mportant to me that it passes several tests that matter to me, and probably only me.

Grimm says:

Life is unfair - one can only be judged by who and how one fights & wins, not by how it could've went in mythical matchups.

Mayweather have defeated all men in front of him. Not much more he could've done, except the ones he's guilty of not having met. The question, then, is: where do these fighters on his resumé stand in a historical comparison, as they were when he met them? I'd say not many of them were even close to anything resembling great. Good, yeah, but that's a given.

Mosley was 39 when they met, in the middle of a 8-fight-span that saw him win 3 times. Where do that version of Sugar Shane rate historically in that particular weight division? Not high, for sure. How good, historically, was ODLH anno 2007? It goes on and on. Need not mention where three of the latest quartet - Ortiz, Guerrero, Alvarez - rate historically. They don't, at all.

Point is comparisons from resumé can't be made. King Wladimir K suffers the same dilemma: too historically weak opposition for relevant comparisons to be made. We can only judge Mayweather from the qualities that are obvious, and guess he would've fared well.

Another way to put it: how many of the men Mayweather beat would have, in the same shape/age/division as when he did it, defeated a prime Leonard, a prime Hearns, a prime Hagler? I can't think of a single one. But I can imagine a whole lot of the men that lost to Leonard/Hearns/Hagler putting a bad beating on Mayweathers parade of defeated opponents.

Truly appreciate the art of Mayweather - and I do believe we've become so accustomed to these athletes-gone-fighters of today (using more physical tools than brain, less technique & real Basilio-like tougness than false macho-attitudes) that we overreact with awe when we watch him display his immense skills.

Radam G says:

Money May would have done to SRL what Roberto Duran did, what the late, great Hector Camacho did and Terry Norris did. Whipped his arse! Just as SRR had a serious problem with fighting short black fighters, SRL has a serious problem with fighting short Latinos and black ones.

Styles make fights. And everybodee and dey momma in da know of da game know the style and size of fighters to stay away from until dey get on dat cocaine syet and dump their high-gun trainer. SRL woulda, coulda, shoulda retired undefeated if he would not have been on dat cocaine syet that will mess up your neurons and make you think that you are a Superman that cyptonite want even beat.

There is always an inside story about great fighters that the outsiders and know nothing don't know. There is even a story behind the downfall and Parkinson-like syndrome of GOAT Ali. And the "Fight Doctor" has told that story tons of times about what the old "Nation of Islam[">'s quack did to the GOAT. Holla!

Radam G says:

WOW! Dino, You MADE MY POINT! You told the inside story of why Sandy Saddler couldn't handle Willie Pep. My BAD! I was going to mention the broken back in the plane crash just as I mention the NOI's quacks around GOAT Ali, but I bytched out. Hehehe! Half of the haters here woulda call me petty and an excuse maker, and the other half would called me every bad name that they could think of, into addition to an evil stepson of Satan.

In the words of Uncle Roger May: "Most people don't kno' sh*t 'bout boksin!'" And they get mad at 80,000 bytches because they don't know diz or dat or "sh*t!" Hahaha! Holla!

amayseng says:

great page of posts all together!!


radam , what happened to ali that caused his parkinsons?

im curious, i have been treating parkinsons patients for eight years now

Hop says:

[QUOTE=dino da vinci;36904]Is Iran Barkley, who holds a KO win and a Spt Dec win over Tommy Hearns in their two go's the better of the two? Most people would tell you no ...[/QUOTE]

[B][I]Most?![/I][/B]

[QUOTE=dino da vinci;36904]I'm at Vinny Pazienza's amateur debut, held in a ballpark. I'm in the grandstands. I glance to my left at the gentleman closest to me sitting alone and notice it's Pep. We made eye contact and I smiled and said Hello, Champ. He smiled back and said You know who I am? I replied as an Italian I was required to by law. We sat through the entire card talking boxing through the ages. And as anyone who has ever sat through what can be a marathon of amateur bouts, we covered a lot of ground and I must say he really (really, really, really) knew the sport.[/QUOTE]

[B]Terrific[/B] anecdote, da Vinci! As a relative newcomer to the site, let me say [U]thanks[/U] for sharing! (applause)

Hop says:

@ Dino:

Sir, may I ask a follow-on question about Pep, since you had personal contact with him. Just read that supposedly he suffered from [I]dementia pugilistica[/I] before his death, yet you said you spoke with him "shortly before he passed", right? So my question is, [I]"Did he indeed exhibit the symptoms of DP when you knew him? Was he still able to function fairly normally in a conversation?,[/I] etc." Would really appreciate hearing your firsthand observations. Thank you!

Radam G says:

@A-seng, holla at some of the fight Dr. Freddie Pacheco's interviews. [He may have a book out about quackery in professional sports.] None-and-self accredited doctors [straight-up, hardcore superquacks] -- who dropped out of the "white man's medical schools" -- from the Nation of Islam gave the GOAT Ali various type of experiential pharmaceutical drugs, cocktails of self-made drugs and herb and psychological drugs to "keep him young and energetic."

See, you can see a lot of people walking around nowadays shaking, trembling and grinding their teeth from -- especially -- psychological experiential drugs that they are getting settlements for. Doing the GOAT Ali's late-career time, drugs regulations were not enforced. So all type of dangerous drugging stuff was going on. [Matter of fact, against Larry Holmes, gave the GOAT some type of pills -- I don't recall what type -- that caused him a major reaction. This is what help LH to easily beatdown the GOAT.]

As I said. A lot of people don't know the inside story of a lot of athletes -- especially boxers -- given all types of jive by so-called supporters, self-declared doctors and leeches.

It is a small world with BIG BULLJIVE and double ____ _____ _____ in it. And the seedy, shady game of boxing is full of optical illusion. Nothing may be what you think and thought. Holla!

brownsugar says:

Any other welter who rehydrates at 146.5 on the day of the fight would be considered a natural junior welterweight. What Floyd has been able to accomplish using his compact frame against naturally bigger opposition is phenomenal. Fighters like Hearns.. The ultra Great Sugar Ray Robinson, Leonard, and Duran were rehydrating between 158 and167 before fights yet Floyds one-size-fits-all I'll-your-best-weapon-away-from-style would be perfectly suited to disrupt...frustrate and handcuff even the best of them. In fact I believe Floyd's negative energy style of boxing would reduce Paul Williams and Aaron Pryor's punch rate to a sub 42 total punches per round thrown. Not saying he wins each fight but he certainly can't be excluded from the possbility. He's that good. Like a burglar who steals from his victims without waking them from their sleep.

TotoyBato says:

When he beats Pacquiao. TBE no doubt.

amayseng says:

[QUOTE=TotoyBato;36929]When he beats Pacquiao. TBE no doubt.[/QUOTE]

ummm no

brownsugar says:

All Floyd needs to beat PAC is the same ring generalship he uses against every one else. Paq is a killer against any stationary target. Against Floyd he'd be out of his depth. Blinded, Befuddled and confused...dazed and amazed.........up the creek without a ....... But I give Paq credit for being in possession of a serious on-board equalizer(the straight left).

stormcentre says:

I think Floyd is one of the best boxers there is now, but his ability to fight guys that are not really as good as advertised and/or coming in with some disadvantage and/or past their prime; is second to none. He is a fighter blessed with superior skills than the majority of the competition.

Not in the least as almost none of his competition have learnt and practiced defense; so there goes half (at least) of the game.

Floyd rarely fights guys that possess the amateur and other pedigree, and the (genuine) experience and/or toughness required to deal with what he brings.

He is brilliant just by the fact alone that not many other guys out there can deal with his skills. But there was no way Canelo was going to beat Mayweather and that was why I stated such in my earlier posts and stayed out of the hype and posts in the lead up to the fight, after that.

I think a prime Kostya Tszyu would have given him troubles. No doubt about. So would some of the other middleweights out there now that are mentioned here.

Floyd is an exceptionally good fighter whom fights guys that are, at best, for one reason or another, very good. Floyd, wont be “TBE”, in my opinion, in this era, until he fights/beats GGG or another really good welterweight or middleweight with an excellent amateur and other pedigree.

However, anyway you look at it the guy is a brilliant boxer, with a brilliant management team, operating in a manner that makes him (and others) millions; in an era where most spectators don’t know how he is doing what he is doing, and just how unlikely it is that the chose competition will not win.

That in itself is actually very clever.

I bet Bob Arum is frustrated every time he sees Floyd joking around before big fights on 24/7 or All Access; effectively laughing at how easy it is to expose (to his own financial gain) just what some of the larger boxing-promotion companies do, as they make it appear that a great risk is being undertaken when in fact, almost magically, none is really there.

It’s called misdirection.

The Shadow says:

[QUOTE=brownsugar;36928]Any other welter who rehydrates at 146.5 on the day of the fight would be considered a natural junior welterweight. What Floyd has been able to accomplish using his compact frame against naturally bigger opposition is phenomenal. Fighters like Hearns.. The ultra Great Sugar Ray Robinson, Leonard, and Duran were rehydrating between 158 and167 before fights yet Floyds one-size-fits-all ......I'll-take-your-best-weapon-away style of boxing would be perfectly suited to disrupt...frustrate and handcuff even the best of them. In fact I believe Floyd's negative energy style of boxing would reduce Paul Williams and Aaron Pryor's punch rate to a sub 42 total punches per round thrown. Not saying he wins each fight but he certainly can't be excluded from the possbility. He's that good. Like a burglar who steals from his victims without waking them from their sleep.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely true! Junior welterweights nowadays rehydrate up to 160+! Floyd is really a lightweight on fight night.

And as usual, you make your point oh-so clear with poetic eloquence.

And yes, he would absolutely stymy the volume punching of Paul Williams. He's fought volume punchers before. Guerrero, for instance, throws 1000+ per fight. Yet, just like any other Floyd opponent, they're limited to 500 or less.

SHould he win a middleweight title, which would be insane -- I actually think welterweight with manipulated/rehydrated 164 fight night weights is pushing it for him. You could see how skinny his frame was compared to Canelo's.

If you put into perspective what he did vs. Canelo, it is essentially comparable to when SRR challenged Joey Maxim for the light heavyweight crown.

As weigh-ins were conducted on fight night with Maxim outweighing the smaller Robinson by 15 pounds. Unlike Robinson, Mayweather prevailed.

Should he beat Martinez for the legitimate, linear middleweight crown, he is definitely in that stratosphere with SRR without question.

The Shadow says:

This is what his peers -- guys much smarter than we (me, anyway) -- say about him:

[url]http://www.boxingscene.com/david-haye-inspired-by-mayweathers-win-over-canelo--69749

[url]http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/boxing/post/_/id/4758/malignaggi-floyd-mayweather-is-best-ever

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpvKCIXXXIY

We can't discount the opinions of experts who live this life. And they all seem to marvel at his skill.

Sidebar: It's kinda like when I heard a two-time Olympic gold medalist call Guillermo Rigondeaux the greatest fighter in history and hear Freddie Roach call him the most talented guy he's even laid his eyes on. At that moment, I knew he would box the brakes off Nonito Donaire. I expected him to deflate Donaire with a body shot. It's just a testament to his greatness that he lived to tell about it, I suppose.

brownsugar says:

Thanks for your generous comments Shadow. Actually.....posting in response to the excellent TSS forum helps keep my mind lubricated for the weekly open mic at the Written Word Poetry Slams in my hometown. Its just like an old school Lorenz Tate movie lol....

Regarding Floyd ....few people remember that he beat a Cuban at the Olympics who was favored to win gold... Even when Floyd lost the silver...the ref raised Floyd's hand in victory automatically and had to be told by a ringside official that the other guy won.(its on YouTube) Floyd is so graceful he appears to win rounds when he does nothing at all.

I have a 41 fight DvD collection of Floyds fights... Early in his career he can be seen calling out the likes of ODLH, Mosley, Kostya Tzu, and others when he was just 130 pounds. Nobody answered the call. Floyd learned from that experience to fight whomever puts butts in seats.

Speaking of the Olympics ...are there any Olympians from 96' still boxing professionally who still have a title ( with the exception of the excellent W Klitschko?)

Floyd use of geometry in the ring and ability to preserve himself physically is second to none.

The Shadow says:

Floyd needs to stop ducking Cubans and white fighters!!!!!

He needs to fight studs like Kessler, Froch and GGG! Although I won't give him too much credit if he wins those (they're not Americans), but it's still a start!

He only fights fighters who aren't better than him. He needs to fight GGG and Martinez in a handicap match before I give him any credit at all.

Ali challenged Foreman and Frazier in one night. Why can't Floyd do the same?

And no, he doesn't fight people with amateur pedigrees either!!! OK, Oscar De La Hoya had an Olympic gold medal but anyone can get one of those. Just look at Henry Tillman!!

Even though Cotto was an Olympian doesn't mean he was a good amateur. He should fight Rigo! THEN we will see how good he is.

bigstinkybug says:

[COLOR="#B22222">I agree... the greatest EVER would never run from a fight.. hate to say it, he has never wanted anything to do with Pac.[/COLOR]

Carmine Cas says:

[QUOTE=Radam G;36906]Money May would have done to SRL what Roberto Duran did, what the late, great Hector Camacho did and Terry Norris did. Whipped his arse! Just as SRR had a serious problem with fighting short black fighters, SRL has a serious problem with fighting short Latinos and black ones.

Styles make fights. And everybodee and dey momma in da know of da game know the style and size of fighters to stay away from until dey get on dat cocaine syet and dump their high-gun trainer. SRL woulda, coulda, shoulda retired undefeated if he would not have been on dat cocaine syet that will mess up your neurons and make you think that you are a Superman that kyptonite will not even bother.

There is always an inside story about great fighters that the outsiders and know nothings don't know. There is even a story behind the downfall and Parkinson-like syndrome of GOAT Ali. And the "Fight Doctor" has told that story tons of times about what the old "Nation of Islam[">'s quacks did to the GOAT. Holla![/QUOTE]

SRL ended up beating Duran in their next two encounters, Terry Norris and Hector Camacho fought SRL way past his prime "everybody and dey momma in da know of the game" know that. He also defeated Kevin Howard, Marvin Hagler, Adolfo Viruet whom are all shorter than him. It's funny though cuz you never mentioned that as a reason of why SRL "avoided" Hawk Time. But I agree styles do make fights and so does size, but SRL whoop Money's arse.

There are inside stories about everyone but there is also some proof in the ring

The Shadow says:

[QUOTE=bigstinkybug;36969][COLOR="#B22222">I agree... the greatest EVER would never run from a fight.. hate to say it, he has never wanted anything to do with Pac.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Then why do you think he called him personally? And the consensus greatest ever SRR DID run from fights. And a lot of 'em.

Radam G says:

Even the short fighters that SRL beat, he had problems with them. Hagler bout could've gone either way. Kevin Howard knocked SRL on his arse. And not in his prime syet oughta stop. There are ton of fighters didn't lose when they were not in the so-called prime. Prime is like height, it is different for everybodee and dey momma. So use it for an alibi not.

Money May is outta his prime and his nut riders are not making excuses for him. Besides I name tons of fighters who didn't even win title until outta their bullsyet. Outta prime talk is for the bullspitters. Fighters fights. Excusers EXCUSE! Holla!

Radam G says:

Size is an excuse for weak fighters like USS Cunningham and for fanfaronades. It is prizefighting not sizefighting, or even primefighting. Money is the drinking force for great fighters. You have clubfighting for da weakling and low-budget _______ ______!

Canelo was worth big money for Money May. And MM made cash with a lot class and dash. Holla!

Radam G says:

My BAD! I meant to post that MONEY is the driving force for great fighters. But we be drinking from that bottle. Hehehe! You know the one that trainer Panama Lewis mixed and gave Aaron "Hawk Time" Pryor a sip of it. It TURNED him into a straight-up KILLA, THRILLA, BLOOD SPILLA, a human GORILLA! OMFG! Panamanian PEDs and roids are almost as good as Pinoy ones.

We be "walkin' through bullet and syet!"

"Dey be bouncin' off (our) @ss [sic]," Uncle Roger May told you guys that. Hahaha! Holla!

Hop says:

[QUOTE=Radam G;36995]You know the one that trainer Panama Lewis mixed and gave Aaron "Hawk Time" Pryor a sip of it. It TURNED him into a straight-up KILLA, THRILLA, BLOOD SPILLA, a human GORILLA![/QUOTE]

Maybe -- [I]"... the one that I mixed"[/I] certainly sounds about as suspicious as you can get, agreed. However, I'm in the minority, I think, in liking Pryor-Arguello [B]II[/B] even better than its predecessor. No black bottle in evidence there, and AP was an animal.

Radam G says:

The little "black bottle" was in the Leon Spinks-GOAT Ali Bout I. "The one I mixed," in the words of Panama Lewis, was in Hawk Time's fight with Arguello. That bottle was whitish clear-like colored. Holla at on Daily Motion or Youtube. Holla!

Hop says:

[QUOTE=Radam G;37008]The little "black bottle" was in the Leon Spinks-GOAT Ali Bout I. "The one I mixed," in the words of Panama Lewis, was in Hawk Time's fight with Arguello. That bottle was whitish clear-like colored. Holla at it on Daily Motion or Youtube. Holla![/QUOTE]

Ah. Thank you. I almost didn't post that b/c of my uncertainty on the color, but read another article that referenced it as black and unwisely went with it. Ok, whitish, then.

Carmine Cas says:

Every fighter is different, SRL was old in last few fights everyone saw that. The taller Tommy Hearns put him on arse too, so what? He came back and knocked out Kevin Howard. Prime is at the peak of your powers, clearly SRL was on the downside of his peak. Timing is also very important as well, it's when you fight your opponent. Money, B-Hop, Marquez lol....all have stayed ahead of father time. Every fighter ages differently. SRL beats Money in their primes

stormcentre says:

[QUOTE=Radam G;36995]My BAD! I meant to post that MONEY is the driving force for great fighters. But we be drinking from that bottle. Hehehe! You know the one that trainer Panama Lewis mixed and gave Aaron "Hawk Time" Pryor a sip of it. It TURNED him into a straight-up KILLA, THRILLA, BLOOD SPILLA, a human GORILLA! OMFG! Panamanian PEDs and roids are almost as good as Pinoy ones.

We be "walkin' through bullet and syet!"

"Dey be bouncin' off (our) @ss [sic]," Uncle Roger May told you guys that. Hahaha! Holla![/QUOTE]

Hi There RG. So, straight up, are you saying that MM is TBE or not.

I say no, but still believe he is one of the best ever.

Radam G says:

I said just like height is different, so is so-alleged prime. I saw the live SRL from as far as the amateurs as a rugrat. He had problems with shorter fighters in sparring and in fighting. No way that he would have walked over Money May. He would ducked him, as he did a few fighters. Ducking is a wonderful, smart part of prizefighting. Holla!

Radam G says:

Money May is at the top of the list of TBE. Holla!

Radam G says:

Fighers fight! Double fudge a prime. That jive talk of fanfaronades and fanboys is BUNK! It is about not seeking abilis. Holla!

stormcentre says:

OK, so (interpreting your cool jive) RG you're saying MM is not the best ever, but one of the best.

I agree that SRL may have had issues with MM, but I am not sure whether SRL’s style would have presented problems for MM as well. As MM seems most comfortable with those that are not good practitioners of his own or similar USA African/negro, technician, slip/slide style. That’s why he feasts on Mexicans.

Also, I don’t know whether SRL’s work-rate, speed and thinking would’ve have given MM something to think about; particularly after he realized (if it did happen) that SRL was not spooked by his defence and speed.

It would be a good fight though.

Anyway, in summary it seems you agree with me. MM is not the best ever - but he is up there.

Carmine Cas says:

Even if SRL did face difficulty with shorter boxers, the attributes of SRL listed by stormcentre would pose a huge problem for Mayweather. His speed, timing, work rate, killer instinct, IQ, heart, slickness would all be HUGE problems for Floyd. Floyd does primarily feast on mexicans on their national holidays. I agree SRL might not roll over Mayweather, especially with Floyd's defensive wizardry but he would eventually conquer him

Radam G says:

The best ever is the late, great Willie Pep, who beat half of his opponents after he broke his back in a plane crash. WP was da BOMB! KaBOOM! Hehehe!

Money May is da BOOP-POP-BANG-BANG! Holla!

Carmine Cas says:

[QUOTE=Radam G;37075]The best ever is the late, great Willie Pep, who beat half of his opponents after he broke his back in a plane crash. WP was da BOMB! KaBOOM! Hehehe!

Money May is da BOOP-POP-BANG-BANG! Holla![/QUOTE]

Yup I am with you on that one

dino da vinci says:

This is a tremendous post. And as I'm on a bit of a mini-vacation, the first in a bit, between trips to the beach I promised myself some posting time. I was going to comment on every single post but now may spend a lot of my time on this one. Great work from a great group of guys.

The Shadow says:

[QUOTE=brownsugar;36954]Thanks for your generous comments Shadow. Actually.....posting in response to the excellent TSS forum helps keep my mind lubricated for the weekly open mic at the Written Word Poetry Slams in my hometown. Its just like an old school Lorenz Tate movie lol....

Regarding Floyd ....few people remember that he beat a Cuban at the Olympics who was favored to win gold... Even when Floyd lost the silver...the ref raised Floyd's hand in victory automatically and had to be told by a ringside official that the other guy won.(its on YouTube) Floyd is so graceful he appears to win rounds when he does nothing at all.

I have a 41 fight DvD collection of Floyds fights... Early in his career he can be seen calling out the likes of ODLH, Mosley, Kostya Tzu, and others when he was just 130 pounds. Nobody answered the call. Floyd learned from that experience to fight whomever puts butts in seats.

Speaking of the Olympics ...are there any Olympians from 96' still boxing professionally who still have a title ( with the exception of the excellent W Klitschko?)

Floyd use of geometry in the ring and ability to preserve himself physically is second to none.[/QUOTE]

I'd love to hear some of your slams! When I was living in Hawaii, we used to have a weekly one out there. (I believe it's the biggest in the country?)

It was awesome. Post a thread! Upload a video! And I can see how you stay sharp lol

brownsugar says:

[QUOTE=The Shadow;37092]I'd love to hear some of your slams! When I was living in Hawaii, we used to have a weekly one out there. (I believe it's the biggest in the country?)

It was awesome. Post a thread! Upload a video! And I can see how you stay sharp lol[/QUOTE]

Thanks Carmine...what's so great is anybody can participate...its a very supportive hobby.
I'll see if I can post my Michael Buffer poem where he announces a sexual encounter between two hetero sexual contestants ... Its not raunchy or obscene at all and It usually generates some laughs because you have to announce the couple like Buffer announcing a fight...which is always fun.

amayseng says:

willie pep was truly amazing....

floyd is a phenom but he doesnt have that killer instinct that SRL did....srl could box but when hearns was

out boxing him he adjusted and out fought and slugged hearns and got him out of there...

floyd would lose to SRL at WW. at 130/135 maybe a different outcome...

and no way on heaven or earth can floyd beat the prime top of his game duran......

duran is one of the greatest fighters of all times.....he is a top 5

amayseng says:

look what castillo did to floyd in their first fight. most everyone feels he beat floyd....

castillo is 3 levels below duran...duran would have beat him to a pulp as he did srl in their first encounter...

make no mistake, many people feel srl fought the wrong fight, i implore you to rewatch the fight and see

duran hurt leonard to the body in the first few rounds and srl had no legs...


he was incapable of moving away...

brownsugar says:

By what metrics do we measure the "Best"ever?
I grew up watching fights in an era where punches caused damage. .....There I said it........ I grew up in an Era where fighters performed more facial alterations than a contingent of Certfied Cosmetic Surgeons.
If a guy landed 50% of his jabs it was a given that blood would flow like crimson wine at a wedding reception.
The announcers would casually announce ....."I'll give it 2 more rounds before that eye is completely shut and the fight is called". because they saw this level of intensity every week.

There was a certain inevitability to the outcome ....and there was always evidence that a war was taking place.
The understanding between the two principles was that the taking of prisioners was not permitted.
Captives were summarily shot on the spot.

In today's era... Most fights don't reach their inevitable conclusion.
More often than not boxers leave the ring without any physical sign that a fight had even taken place.
If you passed these guys in a hallway after the fight you would quietly wonder wonder what these guys had been doing for the past half hour....playing basketball? Ping-pong?

Today there are too many fights that resemble scrappy affairs....mere cat fights where slapping punches are thrown ....solid punched don't land, with a lot of fights not even baring a resemblance of a violent activity. (Bradley vs Alexander or Smith vs Molina for example) too many fights have become ugly scrappy affairs ...an ambiguous expository treatise on how to reach the finish line first instead of how to finish your opponent.

So I don't feel I am qualified to name THE BEST EVER.
You can visit the primordial days of boxing and watch herky jerky films of Armstrong, Dempsey and others fighting out of impossibly rigid stances and wonder how Armstrong could have competed with Pernell Whitaker who comes from an era where lowering your head and flailng wildly didnt constitute boxing.

But if you match those turn of century guys with today's recent crop of boxers....the ancient dudes might all be champions.
So who knows?... I don't have any protected Icons.... For all I know, Joe Calzaghe might have beaten Gerald McClellan without a drop of blood being spilt....or Marciano could have dropped Klitschko in the first round.

All I can speak on is today.
But I do know this .... If Mayweather can finish his contract undefeated while facing highly rated and popular opposition like Canelo. You'll have a hard time keeping him from being unanimously nominated for the top spot.

During the Golden Era... If two boxers met at the top level, it was a given that only one fighter was leaving the ring unaided.

dino da vinci says:

[QUOTE=Hop;36913][B][I]Most?![/I][/B] BTW, IMO the second Barkley fight [I]clearly[/I] marked the beginning of the end for the great Thomas Hearns. Though I would not go so far as to say that Tommy fought a 'bad' fight, it's the closest he ever came to doing so.

[B]Terrific[/B] anecdote, da Vinci! As a relative newcomer to the site, let me say [U]thanks[/U] for sharing! (applause)[/QUOTE]

Thank you Hop.

I last spoke to Willie in late '99, and he passed in late '06. If I had it to lose, I would have lost millions of dollars that Willie passed in the year 2000. Wikipedia states otherwise, and I'm sure they're correct. Hop, when I last spoke to him he was as sharp as a tack. I do recall New England matchmaker 'Chick' Ciccarone telling me Willie's wife took great care of him but there came a point it became to much for her and Willie was put in a home.
Going back to the ballpark, Willie had written a book entitled Willie Pep Remembers 'Friday Night Fights'. He had some in the trunk of his car and he personalized one for me and stated 'guys today fight 3-4 times a year.' His boxing record was in the back of the book and he pointed out he had fought four Fridays in a row. (Now I'm questioning everything. Was it four Saturday's?)
He also told me a joke I remember him enjoy telling. He said I'm from a long line of boxers. I was a boxer. My father was a boxer. His father was a boxer. My uncle was a boxer... But my other uncle was a cocker spaniel. He had very good
comedic timing.

I once asked Hank Kaplan where he ranked Pep. Hank said Pep was the greatest boxer of all-time. But gave the greatest fighter of all-time trophy to Harry Greb.

Boxing has an obscene plethora of all-time greats. Is Floyd the greatest fighter of all-time? No. He is, however, the best practitioner of the sport today.

The Good Doctor says:

I think Floyd is almost easily the best defensive fighter ever (utmost respect to Sweet Pea & Pep). However, I don't have him in my top 5 of best ever and depending on the day he may not crack my top 10. Floyd is easily the best of the last 20 years though. I would rank him above B-Hop and the I would have a cluster of guys (Lennox, Vlad, Sweet Pea, Pac, RJJ, etc,) following that.

Hop says:

[QUOTE=The Good Doctor;37137]I think Floyd is almost easily the best defensive fighter ever (utmost respect to Sweet Pea & Pep). However, I don't have him in my top 5 of best ever and depending on the day he may not crack my top 10. Floyd is easily the best of the last 20 years though. I would rank him above B-Hop and the I would have a cluster of guys (Lennox, Vlad, Sweet Pea, Pac, RJJ, etc,) following that.[/QUOTE]

A high-quality, solid comment, even though brief. Instant boxing respect, Good Doc. I may not rate Lennox Lewis quite as highly as do you, but the obvious intelligence reflected in your post makes me open to reconsider. Will be looking for more of your insights on the forum.

louisvillelip2 says:

Floyd had the chance to prove to himself and everyone else that he was the best of his generation. By sidestepping difficult fighters in their prime- Pacquiao, Williams, Mosley, Tszyu, etc he damaged his own legacy. He reminds me of Roy Jones, in that the business side of boxing mattered more to him than it should have. With the size of his entourage, it may not be all Floyd's fault that he didn't face a lot of dangerous fighters. Perhaps his handlers didn't want to see their fighter damaged and his PPV potential erased. Give him credit, he has the drive to beat almost anyone put in front of him, and the skills to back up his trash talk. Where does Showtime go from here to find opponents for him that are worth PPV cash? He can't fight above 154, and he probably won't go below 147 again.
P.S He would have lost to Leonard, Hearns, Pryor,and Duran. He would not have been able to make middleweight, so including his name in the same sentence as Marvin Hagler is ludicrous.

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