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Mayweather and Pacquiao Against the Greats: Part One

BY Thomas Hauser ON July 11, 2013
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010 Mayweather starting chantIn recent years, there has been a lot of commentary regarding the place that Floyd Mayweather and Manny Pacquiao hold among the all-time greats. Pacquiao’s admirers concede that Manny has passed his peak. Mayweather’s partisans maintain that Floyd is as good as ever and mention him in the same breath as Sugar Ray Robinson. Each man is scheduled to appear in a major pay-per-view fight later this year. As those fights draw near, historical comparisons are expected to fill the air.

How good are Mayweather and Pacquiao? Or to rephrase the question the way their admirers would like it to be, “How great are they?”

To put their considerable skills in context, I chose eight fighters for a “fantasy” round-robin tournament at 147-pounds.

The fighters, in alphabetical order, are Roberto Duran, Emile Griffith, Thomas Hearns, Sugar Ray Leonard, Floyd Mayweather, Manny Pacquiao, Aaron Pryor, and Sugar Ray Robinson.

The list is limited to welterweights from Sugar Ray Robinson’s championship reign to date. It doesn’t include earlier champions like Mickey Walker, Barney Ross, and Henry Armstrong (each of whom competed successfully at 147 pounds).

All of the fighters chosen for the tournament fought at one time or another at weights other than welterweight. Roberto Duran was at his most dominating as a lightweight, although he handed Sugar Ray Leonard his first loss at 147 pounds. Aaron Pryor’s peak performances were at 140. But Teddy Atlas offered his take on that recently, saying, “I don’t think anyone was too big for Aaron Pryor.”

Issues such as same-day weigh-ins versus day-before weigh-ins might also be considered by purists.

But at the end of the day, either a fighter is very good, great, or the greatest.

Twenty-eight experts participated in the rankings process. Listed alphabetically, the panelists are:

Trainers: Teddy Atlas, Dan Birmingham, Pat Burns, Naazim Richardson, and Don Turner.

Media: Al Bernstein, Steve Farhood, Jerry Izenberg, Dan Rafael, Michael Rosenthal, and Jeremy Schaap.

Matchmakers: Jerry Alfano, Eric Bottjer, Don Elbaum, Bobby Goodman, Brad Goodman, Charles Jay, Ron Katz, Mike Marchionte , Chris Middendorf, Russell Peltz, and Bruce Trampler.

Historians: Craig Hamilton, Bob Mee, Clay Moyle, Adam Pollack, Randy Roberts, and Mike Silver.

The panelists were asked to assume for each hypothetical fight that both fighters were at the point in their career when they were the best they could be and still able to make 147 pounds.

If each of the eight fighters listed above had fought the other seven, there would have been 28 fights. And there were 28 panelists. Thus, 784 fights were entered in the data base.

Every fight on this list would have been a MEGA-event.

Fighters were awarded one point for each predicted win and a half-point for each predicted draw (too close to call).

A perfect score (each voter predicting that the same fighter would win every one of his fights) would have been 196 points.

The results have been tabulated. The rankings are:

Sugar Ray Robinson 189.5 points

Sugar Ray Leonard 156.0

Thomas Hearns 112.5

Roberto Duran 93.5

Floyd Mayweather 79.0

Emile Griffith 60.5

Aaron Pryor 59.5

Manny Pacquiao 33.5

PART TWO, analyzing the underlying data, will be posted tomorrow.

Thomas Hauser can be reached by e-mail at thauser@rcn.com.  His most recent book (Thomas Hauser on Sports: Remembering the Journey) was published by the University of Arkansas Press.

Comment on this article

mrblackmagicj says:

This was an awesome idea. I cant wait to read the underlying data tomorrow. One thing Pacquiao fans should consider before bashing this article is that this scenario only took the WELTERWEIGHT version of all the fighters into consideration. Pacquiao's achievments are spread out amongst other divisions.

Carmine Cas says:

Intriguing article, the level of competition both Mayweather and Pacquiao faced at WW was not the same as the preceding fighters

Radam G says:

WOW! I'm staying outta diz, became I'm down wif O-P-P! And being a GOAT Ali-ite, TH knows where I am going. Like my G-Daddy, I'm full of being jivy. And I know that all the haters are going throw out nonsense that I'm a racist. I say to 'em as G-Daddy GOAT Ali would say: "Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Man, you CRAZY!

Well, let me get to it, TH. Bitting off the GOAT Ali: "TH, how da Asians "Hawk Time" and "PacMan" are at da bottom of your list? Hehehehe! But that is okay, because it is more of us on da planet. I guess that we are maying process, though. Latin Jose Napoles and Irish Mickey Walker should've been somewhere there IMHO! I'm going to enjoy part two. More O-P-P for certain. Holla!

Carmine Cas says:

that is true, I give pac credit for wiping out the Mexican greats at the lower weights. I agree with that list for the most part. Who knows what would of happened if Pac fought Mayweather at 135. The boxers today have easy matchmaking compared to fighters of the past.


Def agree, Pac was great at featherweight. If they fought at 135 that would have been an interesting fight. I'd give it to Mayweather, but I don't want to upset others on here

brownsugar says:

Good list....Hearns a little too high ...PAC a little too low....Floyd would have killed Pryor at 135...too much movement...too technical...he would have kept his elbow in Pryors throat up close and blasted him with accurate lefts and rights from a distance. PAC vs Pryor.... a dead even bloody brawl.

Radam G says:

Wow! Only two boxers -- James Kenty and Howard Davis in the amateurs -- ever beat "Hawk Time" Pryor. One of those boxers got a gift decision in the second fight with Pryor for sure, and probably the first one. Politics were against Pryor because of his style and partying after major amateur tournaments. Davis had the preferred Olympic-style fighting.

BTW, Money May had problems with JL Castillo at lightweight. Hawk Time would've been too much for Money May at any weight. Nobody could elbow Pryor. Dude was all over the place. and could do it all -- box, slug, fight, get down and dirty. [Holla at "The Tale of Aaron Pryor vs Alexis Arguello. It is funny as heck how his tells the story about his Asian moms.] And Hawk Time was super not passive. Maybe the only way that Money May could get a win would've DQ!

Money May would've had an easier time with Tommy Hearns than Pryor. In the amateurs and pros, the "Hitman" had a problem with short boxers.

Wow! Again. I can wait for part two. It is going to be fun. Yall know me! Holla!

Radam G says:

Besides, B-Sug, don't forget that "Hawk Time" Pryor would have had water -- the one dat Panama Lewis "mixed." Panama is a great mixer of legit water. The greatest of all times. Hehehehehe! Holla!

The Good Doctor says:

Good list....Hearns a little too high ...PAC a little too low....Floyd would have killed Pryor at 135...too much movement...too technical...he would have kept his elbow in Pryors throat up close and blasted him with accurate lefts and rights from a distance. PAC vs Pryor.... a dead even bloody brawl.


I am with you on your assessment. I believe Pac and Pryor would have both left the ring on stretchers. Imagine if they went 15 too. Ouch. I also think Floyd would have beaten Duran. I know Duran could thud but Floyd has a decent beard on him and I think he may have been a little to quick for him.

Radam G says:

TGD! WOW! Hehehehehe! You are one funny doc. Have you been drinking some Scotch wine! -- just jivin!' Pryor would've upset Sugar Ray Robinson as the late, great Carmen Basilio did. If they would have fought outside in the heat, SRR would've wuzzied out like he did against Joey Maxim. Hehehe! Holla!

Carmine Cas says:

Aaron Pyror and Pacquiao would be a great fight, I think Floyd pot shots Pyror coming in, he has the hand and foot speed to do it. Arguello was having success with Pyror in their first fight.

brownsugar says:

Besides, B-Sug, don't forget that "Hawk Time" Pryor would have had water -- the one dat Panama Lewis "mixed." Panama is a great mixer of legit water. The greatest of all times. Hehehehehe! Holla!


I knew Pryor was good RG but I didn't think he was that good! dang!

Radam G says:

He was that good. And some. Holla!

bigstinkybug says:

Good list....Hearns a little too high ...PAC a little too low....Floyd would have killed Pryor at 135...too much movement...too technical...he would have kept his elbow in Pryors throat up close and blasted him with accurate lefts and rights from a distance. PAC vs Pryor.... a dead even bloody brawl.


[COLOR="#B22222">no one was killing Pryor... the guy was a monster... but it would've been a great fight... people leave out DeLaHoya at 130...DeLaHoya was one of the greatest at that weight...his hands were extrmily heavy.

teaser says:

yup Pryor beat Tommy in the amateurs...and the hawk only lost one fight in the pros...his last one ...15 rounds of nonstop would give him at least a decision over Floyd...Tommy with that long jab going like he did against Leonard would be hard to beat....probably ko's manny ...Duran at his best beast at light weight could cut off the ring with the best of them and cause major body damage...not to mention deceptively fast ...again a decision on volume and and sheer ferocity...all these fights would be boxing heaven

kidcanvas says:

this is the fighters at their best @ 147 ? then duran clobbers them all ...at his suger ray leonard fight 1 best ... especially pacquiao and mayweather ... i mean comparing competition hahahaha it ridiculous

amayseng says:

147 men 147.

The Duran that beat Leonard would beat Floyd and PAC.
PAC at 147 explosive but Duran had a beard of stone.

Until a later age when hearns almost knocked him in half.

Also I don't see Floyd beating Leonard. Or PAC beSting Leonard.

This is at their very best 147.

What a great conversation.

I'm better at just reading it. Ha.

Radam G says:

Wow! Everything is coming out now. @Teaser, Texan Mike Ayala -- a right-handed like Pacquiao, with the shocking speed and all, but not the discipline -- chopped down Tommy Hearns in the semi-finals of the 1975 National Golden Gloves. I saw that bout on film. It was also on Youtube a few years. But a lot of boxing action in the amateurs has been knocked down by powers that be because of copyrights infringements. NBC, CBS and ABC have a stronghold on television fight films of the 1950s to the 1990s. Holla!

amayseng says:

Radam the amateurs are legit but not each fighters peak at 147.

If have to believe the prime came in the pros at 147. Not amateurs.

Radam G says:

The pros is always the peak. Old-skool amateurs is the foundation and indication that good and or great can come. Holla!

amayseng says:

Yep.
So who is the best ever at 147?

Radam G says:

Don't forget, amayseng! Amateurs and pros will now be competing against each other in the O games. Amateurs and pros spar every day in the gyms of the world. The only difference in the two was that great amateurs got paid under the table. Now everything is in the open with the WSB.

The reason that some amateurs stayed amateur for so long, is that they would be taking a pay cut to go pro. Hehehe! Holla!

Radam G says:

It will always be subjective as to who the best is/was. To me Tito Trinidad should have made the list too. He and Money May are the only modern-period undefeated ones at welterweight. Holla!

amayseng says:

Except that dlh schooled Tito.

Ya I know he blew it and coasted but **** he bagged 7 rounds and boxed his ears off.

Radam G says:

I agree, amayseng. But even Sugar Ray Robinson got a couple of gift decisions. As even Money May got one against JL Castillo, Big Money O got one against Sweet Pea Whitaker. That happens. The only modern-day super p4p that didn't ever get a gift is Marvelous Marvin Hagler. Holla!

Radam G says:

I agree, amayseng. But even Sugar Ray Robinson got a couple of gift decisions. As even Money May got one against JL Castillo, Big Money O got one against Sweet Pea Whitaker. That happens. The only modern-day super p4p that didn't ever get a gift is Marvelous Marvin Hagler. Holla!

amayseng says:

True true.

amayseng says:

Hagler God bless him.

No wonder he left the country.

JoeKidd says:

I was about to say the same thing, except I don't believe Hagler fought at Welterweight, he was stricly a Middleweight.

stormcentre says:

that is true, I give pac credit for wiping out the Mexican greats at the lower weights. I agree with that list for the most part. Who knows what would of happened if Pac fought Mayweather at 135. The boxers today have easy matchmaking compared to fighters of the past.


Agreed. The MM is very easy by comparison

gibola says:

Great idea, but I would have included a peak Don Curry and not SRR. We saw all the other guys fight, we can compare and speculate. With SRR we are simply repeating the mantra that everyone has to follow the 'peak 147lb SRR beats everybody, ever, no debate.' While that may well be true how many of these guys saw SRR at 147? It's easier to take it as a given SRR is no.1, put him to one side and have a debate about the others.
That said, the position of Hearns is the fascinating one. I think Hearns could have outboxed PBF and KO'd Manny, but equally he could have caved if hit with the right shot, or been worn down by Manny's pressure.
PBF is a massive threat to SRL. SRL is the best fighter of my time as a boxing fan but I'm not sure PBF couldn't have nicked a close decision. Benitez gave SRL fits, PBF is better than Benitez - it's a toss up. I actually think style-wise Hearns beats PBF far more comfortably than SRL.
I agree with the list again in that I like Pryor's chances against Pacman but no-one else. These are big, strong welters who can box and bang and I think they would have held off Pryor's charge. I give Griffith and PBF a decent shot at Duran, even the 1980 Duran. SRL fought the wrong fight, PBF wouldn't stand and trade, however Duran was so good he'd probably still win.
If the peak Don Curry was put in this list I'd have him between Duran and Mayweather - his peak was brief, but he was that good. His style would even trouble those above him.

Carmine Cas says:

Tommy Hearns' durability and china is suspect, Idk if he should be that high

Radam G says:

@Gibola, you are real G! I was gonna holla "Don Curry" myself, but that point five percent of wuzzy in me got to me. Hahaha! I want a great discussion and debate to go down, but haters are looking to go blitzkrieg. Holla!

Matthew says:

A very interesting idea, and I'm looking forward to reading part two. The results are about what I would have expected. I think Pryor would have beaten Mayweather. The unpredictability of Pryor's punches and the sheer volume would have been a nightmare for Mayweather to deal with. Curry and Mayweather would have been interesting to have in the mix as well.

Matthew says:

Sorry, I meant Curry and Whitaker.

dino da vinci says:

Yep.
So who is the best ever at 147?


Have all the polls you want. It's not even a discussion. Sweet as Sugar, Ray Robinson.

Radam G says:

I agree ddv that "Sweet as Sugar, Ray Robinson" was the greatest at match making, and that made him look great to those ear witnesses who don't know the whole nasty nine about his ducking-the-"Black Murder Row" behind. I'm down with O-P-P! You know me. Hehehe! Holla!

dino da vinci says:

Great idea, but I would have included a peak Don Curry and not SRR. We saw all the other guys fight, we can compare and speculate. With SRR we are simply repeating the mantra that everyone has to follow the 'peak 147lb SRR beats everybody, ever, no debate.' While that may well be true how many of these guys saw SRR at 147? It's easier to take it as a given SRR is no.1, put him to one side and have a debate about the others.
That said, the position of Hearns is the fascinating one. I think Hearns could have outboxed PBF and KO'd Manny, but equally he could have caved if hit with the right shot, or been worn down by Manny's pressure.
PBF is a massive threat to SRL. SRL is the best fighter of my time as a boxing fan but I'm not sure PBF couldn't have nicked a close decision. Benitez gave SRL fits, PBF is better than Benitez - it's a toss up. I actually think style-wise Hearns beats PBF far more comfortably than SRL.
I agree with the list again in that I like Pryor's chances against Pacman but no-one else. These are big, strong welters who can box and bang and I think they would have held off Pryor's charge. I give Griffith and PBF a decent shot at
Duran, even the 1980 Duran. SRL fought the wrong fight, PBF wouldn't stand and trade, however Duran was so good he'd probably still win.
If the peak Don Curry was put in this list I'd have him between Duran and Mayweather - his peak was brief, but he was that good. His style would even trouble those above him.


Gibola, while I'm not firmly entrenched in the Sugar Ray Robinson is the greatest fighter ever camp, I am the President of the Sugar Man standing atop the 147 pound heap. First off, he'd be favored to win against anyone named as the opponent at 147. And interestingly enough, I believe our other Sugar Ray would be the next best representative of the welterweight class.

Now, do I believe Floyd Mayweather could beat Sugar Ray Robinson? Absolutely. But it may take him a number of outings to accomplish this. Just as I believe any of those men on that list could defeat another name on that list, it would just be a question of with what type of regularity could they continue to win. When all is said and done, I think that the guy ending up with the least amount of losses would be Robinson.

Carmine Cas says:

i agree that SSR was the best but the toughest welter goes to this fellow= The man nicknamed "The Toy Bulldog" was a welterweight and middleweight champion but
ultimately won the hearts of boxing fans by fearlessly taking on heavyweights and light
heavyweights.
In 1922, Walker dethroned welterweight champion Jack Britton and made successful title
defenses against Pete Latzo, Jimmy Jones, Lew Tendler and Bobby Barrett.

Even as a welterweight the 5-foot 7-inch Walker began thinking big. With manager Jack
"Doc" Kearns handling his career, nearly any opponent at nearly any time could be produced.

In 1925, fought to a no decision with light heavyweight champion Mike McTigue in a title
bout and lost a 15-round decision to middleweight king Harry Greb. The Greb fight was a
thrilling affair and legend has it that the two warriors went at it again in the streets
of New York City after arguing the result of the fight in a saloon.

Walker lossed the welterweight crown to Latzo in 1926 but he wouldn't be without a title
for long. Before the year ended, he defeated middleweight champion Tiger Flowers.

Again, he sought bigger challenges and knocked out McTigue, then an ex-champ, and
decisioned future light heavyweight champion Paul Berlanbach.

In 1929, he challenged 175-pound champion Tommy Loughran but lost a 10-round split
decision. By 1931, Walker was fighting heavyweights and decided to relinquish his
middleweight throne
after beating top big men such as Johnny Risko and Bearcat Wright. Also in '31, Walker
battled future heavyweight champion Jack Sharkey to a draw.

Heavyweight contenders King Levinsky, Paulino Uzcudun and Arthur DeKuh fell victim to
Walker in 1932 but former heavyweight champ Max Schmeling knocked him out in eight rounds
the same year. One more try at the light heavyweight crown came in 1933 but Maxie Rosenbloom
scored a decision over Walker. A year later, Walker avenged the loss to Rosenbloom in a
non-title fight.

After scoring a second-round knockout over Red Bush in 1939, Walker retired.

Walker is rated among the greatest "pound-for-pound" fighters who ever entered the ring; He
was strong, rugged, and durable; He fought everyone -- even much heavier men and held his
own. Nat Fleischer ranked Walker as the #4 All-Time Middleweight; Charley Rose ranked him
as the #3 All-Time Middleweight. Walker was elected to the International Boxing Hall of Fame
in 1990.

BORN : Edward Patrick Walker,
July 13 1901; Elizabeth, New Jersey
DIED : April 28 1981; Freehold, New Jersey

HEIGHT : 5-7 WEIGHT : 140-170 lbs RACE : White

MANAGERS : Johnny Anthes (1919-1920), Jack Bulger (1920-1923), Joe Diegnan (1923-1925),
Jack Kearns (1925-1934), Bill Duffy (1934-1935)



Great info DW, very insightful I will look him up, how about Harry Greb?

dino da vinci says:

You could certainly argue Greb as the greatest of all time. I know the late great Hank Kaplan did.

dino da vinci says:

Let me reword that. Mr Kaplan was as classy a man as I've ever met. Hank never really argued anything, be it boxing or otherwise. I asked him and he told me his opinion. I will add this: Only historian who could tell me anything about my cousin Chet Vinci. Actually all three brothers fought but only Chet had any real success.
HK: Yeah, Chet Vinci, from upstate New York. Not a bad boxer, fought at light heavyweight.

Also add. I'd call Hank from all over the world, he'd get a kick out of that. (Yet in reality, I'm not all that well-traveled). Two guarantees:

1. There was always someone at his home somehow connected with boxing and he'd almost always put me on the phone with them.
2. Even though he was very much advanced in age, you could ask him anything and he'd respond clearly and accurately.

For those of you who didn't know the man, his best friend was Angelo Dundee and he was with Angie the first day a young Cassius Clay, Jr walked in the door. A great bit of his insight and photo collection went into the making of the monstrous tribute to Ali, GOAT. (Greatest Of All Time)

Coxs Corner says:

Robinson and Leonard # 1 and # 2 on the list.

Mickey Walker should be on the list.

Should Aaron Pryor be considered among elite 8 at welterweight considering he never won the 147 pound title?

I would rate Emile Griffith over Mayweather. I would rate Luis Rodriguez over Mayweather who had career wins over the likes of Griffith, Benny Paret, Hurricane Carter, Curtis Cokes, Georgie Benton and Bennie Briscoe. Mayweathers resume is absent legit competition, nothing to compare to that.

Shoulder Roll Defense says:

Contrary to some of the opinions on this thread, Sugar Ray Robinson at welterweight is the greatest pugilist to ever grace the earth. Floyd is great, but he would have his hands full with the welterweight version of Ray Robinson. Ray was 5'11 with a granite chin and was the epitome of a boxer/puncher. Pac-Man would be lucky if he lasted 5 rounds and Mayweather is a defensive genius, but would struggle to keep Sugar off of him for 12 or 15 rounds. Roger Mayweather is obviously biased towards his nephew, but is on record as stating that Sugar Ray Robinson is the G.O.A.T. Holla!

dino da vinci says:

Now that is a nice story. I have two favorite boxing memories. One is knocking down Eric Harding with a straight right during sparring when Al Gavin had him for the big Roy Jones fight. The other is after one of the shows at the Garden, heading over to the bar across the street where the fight crowd goes, The Affinia or something . After saying hello to mark breland and Iran Barkley and zab's dad, in walks Angelo Dundee with a big smile, Holy Sh7t its Dundee! I'm thinking, anyway I'm nervous and can't think of something to say. So I say Hi, shake his hand and get in close and ask him, of all things, so are you still training David Estrada? He gives me a look like what the hell kind of question was that but I must of caught him off guard and I sound like I know something. He talked for about 2 minutes and I felt like I knew him for a while. I asked ,you want a beer? and he said sure. We talked about everything and he empties his beer , so I ask him another question.. You want another? He said sure and talked with him another 15 minutes.No one interrupted us and Ugly Lou Dibella was trying to weasel in but Dundee wouldn't let him. That is my greatest memory involving boxing.


No doubt, Angie was special and was a great ambassador for the sport.
Harding could fight! Nice work.

dino da vinci says:

Contrary to some of the opinions on this thread, Sugar Ray Robinson at welterweight is the greatest pugilist to ever grace the earth. Floyd is great, but he would have his hands full with the welterweight version of Ray Robinson. Ray was 5'11 with a granite chin and was the epitome of a boxer/puncher. Pac-Man would be lucky if he lasted 5 rounds and Mayweather is a defensive genius, but would struggle to keep Sugar off of him for 12 or 15 rounds. Roger Mayweather is obviously biased towards his nephew, but is on record as stating that Sugar Ray Robinson is the G.O.A.T. Holla!


It's true. An absolutely complete fighter. they would have thought they were in the ring with an octopus.

amayseng says:

The one very important thing Floyd lacks is firepower.
These top guys Robinson, Leornard, hearns, Duran, all were offensive machines with fantastic knockout power.
Floyd is a buzzing puncher with great defense but the above mentioned just may have had too much firepower for him.
I think Floyd was a better fighter at 135 than 147. Not much power at 147 or activity, doesn't throw enough.


More importantly great great conversation and stories on this thread.
Much appreciated.

The Good Doctor says:

The one very important thing Floyd lacks is firepower.
These top guys Robinson, Leornard, hearns, Duran, all were offensive machines with fantastic knockout power.
Floyd is a buzzing puncher with great defense but the above mentioned just may have had too much firepower for him.
I think Floyd was a better fighter at 135 than 147. Not much power at 147 or activity, doesn't throw enough.


More importantly great great conversation and stories on this thread.
Much appreciated.



No right or wrong answer on this, but do you think Floyd lacks firepower or does he have firepower but does not want to sit down and throw a bomb because it may open himself up to get hit?

Looking at him early, say pre-Chico fights, I thought he had some heat. (not Duran type heat, but some heat) It seems to me as he climbed weight classes and became more of a defensive whiz he chose not to throw bombs.

Radam G says:

Ditto TGD! Money May has awesome power. But does not use it because no one has been fast enough to force him to use it, with the exceptions of "Chico" and Redcoat Ricky. That is right! Ricky Hatton? Dude was fast with the hands and feet until he ran into Money May and Da Manny.

Because Sugar Ray Robinson was fast and aggressive, a super relaxed Money May would use all the sweetness of the Sugarman against him and easily kicked his @$$, as 5-foot-6 Ralph "Tiger" Jones did. And the Sugarman never wanted a rematch. Holla at the bout on Youtube. Ralph Dupas kicked the Sugarman's arse, but the Sugarman got a Bradley-type verdict. I guess the Sugarman couldn't fight fighters named "Ralph." Hehehehe!

As 92-year-old ex-fighter Mr. Ackerson -- an eyewitness and sparring mate of SRR -- is buying the hype about SRR. Nyet! I to! Nyet! Holla!

amayseng says:

Well obviously when u don't sit down on your punches you are taking away your own power.
I think above 135 Floyd's power leveled off.
Radam jlc forced Floyd the opportunity to use it taking him to hell and back.
It would have been easier if Floyd had power to get him out of there. He was not able to.
Against jmm Floyd put on the most impressive performance I think of his life and had one flash knock down with nothin else hurting jmm. And Floyd landed a high number of clean, clean shots.
PAC knocked jmm down 126 times. Ha.
With today's competition Floyd can use skill stamina timing and spacing to out box his opponents.
But stains that list of killers Floyd would need power from time to time to slow them down. At 147 he doesn't have it.
It's of course all speculation.

Take into account would you the srl and hearns fight. Hearns was out boxing Leonard and Leonard had to fight and use power to come back for the KO and win.
Do u see Floyd doing that to hearns?

Shoulder Roll Defense says:

Ditto TGD! Money May has awesome power. But does not use it because no one has been fast enough to force him to use it, with the exceptions of "Chico" and Redcoat Ricky. That is right! Ricky Hatton? Dude was fast with the hands and feet until he ran into Money May and Da Manny.

Because Sugar Ray Robinson was fast and aggressive, a super relaxed Money May would use all the sweetness of the Sugarman against him and easily kicked his @$$, as 5-foot-6 Ralph "Tiger" Jones did. And the Sugarman never wanted a rematch. Holla at the bout on Youtube. Ralph Dupas kicked the Sugarman's arse, but the Sugarman got a Bradley-type verdict. I guess the Sugarman couldn't fight fighters named "Ralph." Hehehehe!

As 92-year-old ex-fighter Mr. Ackerson -- an eyewitness and sparring mate of SRR -- is buying the hype about SRR. Nyet! I to! Nyet! Holla!


If I'm not mistaken, the Ralph Tiger Jones and the Ralph Dupas fight were at middleweight? My point is that at WELTERWEIGHT, Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest. Numbers don't lie. He had already seen his best days when he was fighting as a middleweight. You have analyze his whole body of work to be fair. Holla!

Radam G says:

They were small middleweights. Now, I'm not saying that Sugar Ray Robinson was not superbad. But he was a prizefighter, not pridefighter. No one know how great that he could have been because he was a fudge-you ducker of low-budget fights and he was stupidsitious (sic). If he didn't like how the moon look that night, he would pull of the fight at welterweight. There were tons of good and great welterweight that SRR didn't fight, because his "Big Momma" in Alabama told he that her "big toe (was) acting up, so don'tf fight tonight."

C'Mon, SRD! SRR had all types of spiritually mishaps that got into his head. Dude had a dwarf in his entourage that he would use as a bowling ball, and if the dwarf did roll up and knock down all the bowl, the SRR would not rumble that night. And wha about SRR not fighting because a cricket that he found in his hotel room was sounding suspicious.

I'm not making this up. Dude didn't fight once because his wife counter punched when he was whuppin' her arse and his toddler son hit him. I'm gonna like you chew on that for a minute, SRD. Holla!

gibola says:

" I would watch SRL vs Mayweather Sr to give you an idea about how SRL would deal with the style the daddy taught Floyd. Also Roger Mayweather is no great but watch Pete whitiker against him to get the same look how pernell would do against the mayweather style."

Hi Deepwater, thanks for the reply. I've seen that fight (SRL v Floyd Sr) but I don't feel it gives us that many pointers because PBF is a vastly superior fighter to his father and his uncle, he's taken that style on and perfected it. Marlon Starling beat Floyd Sr twice, completely conquered the style but we don't pick Starling over PBF. Truth is PBF does it better than the rest of his family and beating Roger or big Floyd means very little to me when considering how someone would do against PBF. I maintain PBF gives SRL fits, win or lose - but I've been wrong before.

Carmine Cas says:

The one very important thing Floyd lacks is firepower.
These top guys Robinson, Leornard, hearns, Duran, all were offensive machines with fantastic knockout power.
Floyd is a buzzing puncher with great defense but the above mentioned just may have had too much firepower for him.
I think Floyd was a better fighter at 135 than 147. Not much power at 147 or activity, doesn't throw enough.


More importantly great great conversation and stories on this thread.
Much appreciated.


Mayweather's power is not up to par with the preceding fighters, but also his intent was different. The former fighters usually threw with the intent of hurting their man, they looked to knock out their opponents. Even if it meant putting them in harms way, Floyd approaches the ring in a calculated manner. He analyzes, discovers flaws, and exposes them while simultaneously absorbing as little damage as possible. If the knockout is convenient, then he'll take it, if not he'll just outbox his man for 12 rounds. He's in it purely for $$$$ not glory and legacy.

And back to his power, it is at least buzzing but he could have broke down more of his opponents if he wanted and stopped them (not all of them obviously lol). But he'd rather not deviate from his strategy and box to safe decision

amayseng says:

True.
He mentioned in an interview he was trying to get Cotto out of there

He said it many times he tried to knock him out and it didn't happen.
Possibly why he gassed more than usual putting more energy into his punches.
Yes a buzzing puncher.

But by no means would he have held Duran off.
Or hearns.
Or PAC.

Radam G says:

In this tournament, "Hawk Time" Pryor and Da Manny would've been the only ones to fudge up Money May. "Hand of Stone" Duran would've fought Money May to draw in the first bout, but in the second bout, Duran would've cramps as he did as SRL and quit! Holla!

amayseng says:

I believe if Floyd fought his style back in the 70s and 80s he would have lost on points to Duran an hearns.
With those guys so active and offensive he wouldn't have even gotten a draw against Duran.

bigstinkybug says:

147 men 147.



.


[COLOR="#B22222">sorry..for some reason I thought lightweight... the one guy that sticks out in my head..and many will disagree, that's fine'..BUT, at his best..Donald Curry was as good as any welter I ever saw... he was the perfect fighter for a short time in his career.

the Roast says:

Putting Donald Curry in with the ATG welters is kinda like putting Buster Douglas in with the ATG heavys if you ask me.

Radam G says:

As a welterweight, Don Curry were no Buster Douglas. Welterweight DC was da man! Diet is what kicked his arse, not a single boxers at that weight. Holla!

brownsugar says:

I heard rumors of Curry using ex-laxx and diuretics to cut weight before getting destroyed by a Britton named Lloyd Honnigan. I cannot attest to the truth of this rumor, but after Curry's delicate bio-balance was disrupted, he was never the same. But until the time of his downfall Curry boxed like he was aided by a supernatural force ( like the kind you get when you sell your soul to the devil)

gibola says:

Most of the great fighters hold a consistent 'peak' for the majority of their careers. Don Curry only had a 2/3 year peak, he wasn't an all-time great, but during that 'peak' time he was competitive with any welterweight I've ever seen. Career-wise Don Curry doesn't belong in the mix, but if we're talking about how good he was at his best, he certainly does.

Radam G says:

@B-Sug, Ditto everything that you heard about DC in cutting weight. Also add sitting in and shadow boxing in the sauna a lot of times on the morning of the fight. DC was a natural, pure boxer, but had new people around him that didn't know Jack about training and dieting of boxing.

Paul Reyes -- his trainer from eight old -- had never boxed of being around until he got DC and his older brother Grayland. The oldest brother started off boxing for an old-skool boxing guy named "Parker." Holla!

brownsugar says:

@B-Sug, Ditto everything that you heard about DC in cutting weight. Also add sitting in and shadow boxing in the sauna a lot of times on the morning of the fight. DC was a natural, pure boxer, but had new people around him that didn't know Jack about training and dieting of boxing.

Paul Reyes -- his trainer from eight-years old -- had never boxed or been around it until he got DC and his older brother Grayland. The oldest brother Bruce started off boxing for an old-skool boxing guy named "Parker." Holla!


Interesting side notes RG

Carmine Cas says:

What I forgot to mention is that Mayweather's buzzing power would have been enough to keep off a lot of his opponents, Duran not so much lol. Pyror would be able to render Mayweather a loss, he is a more complete fighter than Pacquiao. I don't see Pacquiao beating Money too much. Leonard on the other hand would whoop that arse, not because he beat his daddy but because he has the speed power finesse to when he does take Mayweather in the later rounds he will break his will. When you look at the fighters the have pressured Mayweather in the later rounds their prowess did not match Leonard's. De La Hoya was overhill and gassed, Cotto had been through wars, but Ray Leonard was still above them in terms of skill. Leonard handles Floyd

Carmine Cas says:

True.
He mentioned in an interview he was trying to get Cotto out of there

He said it many times he tried to knock him out and it didn't happen.
Possibly why he gassed more than usual putting more energy into his punches.
Yes a buzzing puncher.

But by no means would he have held Duran off.
Or hearns.
Or PAC.


Maybe he couldn't get Cotto out of there or maybe he didn't want to risk opening up for further punishment. Attempting depict his win over Cotto as more of a challenge

Radam G says:

Amayseng, since you believe that it works, and it does for the reason that Money May uses it, put on your thinking cap as to why Money May probably didn't get Cotto outta there. Holla!

amayseng says:

He had Cotto wobble in the 12 alon with another time earlier in the fight. He tried to get him out of there and just didn't have the pop to do it.
Nothing shameful about it. Floyd is a pure boxer but he isn't genetically a hitter.
Ggg is a hitter.
PAC is a hitter.
Duran is a hitter.
Hearns is a hitter.
Dlh a hitter.
Floyd not a hitter.
Against great competition Floyd doesn't need that power.
But against the best ever at ww without it he would struggle and lose.

Radam G says:

Just so you know, Amayseng, when Money May had Cotto wobbling, he could not take Cotto out because Money May brittled hands were in pain and injuried.

When he was getting ready to go to jail, he had to get off his hands' protection of roids of "Xylocaine." See it is illegal to turn yourself into a Sin City jail "on dat syet," as Pops Joy May calls roids. Against the Cali Ghost, Money May and his pops decided not to go back on xylocaine. But you can bet that Money May will be back on that Sin-City-legal roids against the red-headed hype.

So just watch Money May's pop and power against the r-h h. I predict a Money May's KAYO. Holla!

Radam G says:

Oh, YUP! "Floyd" too is a hitter. He has just prolonged his career by not using his bang, crack and power. But by using xylocaine and not using his honey shots -- knockout punches -- have kept him in the game and in da money for so long. In the old days, boxers use gimmicks and dirt to last. Money May is lasting the legit old-skool way -- prizefighting and cherry picking. I ain't hatin' him. Holla!

amayseng says:

I thought xylocaine masked pain.
Not strengthens bones.
Am I wrong?
Ill research.

Radam G says:

You are right. Xylocaine masses the pain in Money May's brittle hands, so that he can fire, instead of sticking and picking. And jive _icking around. Money May can crack and pop. Hard that may sound. On this list of greats, he should be at the top. Holla!

Radam G says:

When it was not against the rules yet, back in da day both GOAT Ali and Sugar Ray Leonard used numbing roids in their hands so that they could not feel the pain during a bout. Xylocaine in Sin City is not illegal. I believe Doc Pachecko deaden GOAT Ali's hands with novocaine, though.

See, to me it is hard to compare today's pugilists to those of yesteryears because of rules changes -- stuff found in a boxer's system, thumbless gloves, penalty for clinching. And a whole of other stuff. Holla!

amayseng says:

I just yesterday watched Ali Frazier 2.
Ali held soooo much he should have been penalized 136 times.

Radam G says:

Clinched, amayseng, CLINCHED! A beautiful thing that is nearly extinct in boxing. Go to youtube and holla at the oldtimers. Holla!

the Roast says:

Donald Curry. In our minds eye we can see him blasting out Milt McCrory. One of the most spectacular KO's in boxing history. He beat Marlon Starling twice by decision, thats good. Beside that not much else. No weight cutting excuses please. Lloyd Honeyghan whipped Curry's *** and he quit on his stool after six one sided rounds. Curry's career fizzled after that. Yes he did beat my good friend Nino LaRocca but at 147 Don was no ATG.

amayseng says:

Ha.
I'm down with clinching as part if a strategy ala Shane's phenomenal performance against margacheato.
But Ali was Holding, a lot. More than clinching.

Radam G says:

Wow! Hehehehehe! The Roast, you are such a hinny-luvin' cat of da dames, damsels and dolls. Your wifey is going to kick your butt. OOPS! I musta' fo'got! You are single in cyberspace. Lucky dude. Holla!

Radam G says:

There was something esle about DC, the Roast. He also kayoed Colin Jones, Roger Stafford, Pablo Baez and James "Hard Rock" Green. They were a murder row of welterweights in the 1980s. They all would have won alphabet title belts nowadays. When they danced with Curry, it was only two -- the WBC and WBA -- and then three, the super-corrupted, Robert Lee's IBF!

Did I ever tell you about my BIG-MOOLA-WINNING lawsuit against the IBF? Hehehehe! My winning even put Bobby Lee's arse in jail. He was a handwashing-the-drawers-of-Big Bubba he bytch. Hahahaha! I showed dat muthasucka how to jive with "Manos de Rapido" -- I mean the Kid Radam. [BIG GIGGLES!] Holla!

gibola says:

Agree Radam. History hasn't been kind to Don Curry but he was second best p4p behind an ageing Hagler back in 85/6. He was never the same after Honeyghan but I remember him at his best and he was a helluva fighter. He didn't beat legends but perhaps his two wins over Starling and the McCrory and Colin Jones KOs should get him more respect. It was the way he won that was so special. A complete fighter.

the Roast says:

There was something esle about DC, the Roast. He also kayoed Colin Jones, Roger Stafford, Pablo Baez and James "Hard Rock" Green. They were a murder row of welterweights in the 1980s. They all would have won alphabet title belts nowadays. When they danced with Curry, it was only two -- the WBC and WBA -- and then three, the super-corrupted, Robert Lee's IBF!

Did I ever tell you about my BIG-MOOLA-WINNING lawsuit against the IBF? Hehehehe! My winning even put Bobby Lee's arse in jail. He was a handwashing-the-drawers-of-Big Bubba he bytch. Hahahaha! I showed dat muthasucka how to jive with "Manos de Rapido" -- I mean the Kid Radam. [BIG GIGGLES!] Holla!


Yes you have told me about that RG, I mean Fists Rapido. Those guys you mentioned were no murderers row. Baez was a journeyman at best. Joan Baez was a better fighter. Hard Rock Green was good at punching bubbles but bad at winning the big fight. Colin Jones I only remember that fight where the bridge of his nose was split open and he cried very hard. Every era has fighters that came close but no cigar to that title belt. I do miss those days, only two belts, WBC/WBA.

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