Arum in Danger of Mis-Handling Pacquiao

BY Aaron Lowinger ON June 17, 2014
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For better or worse, the business of boxing has settled in on making only two fights a year for its biggest stars. There are a few outliers, like the Mexican junior middleweight, Canelo Alvarez, who is on pace to fight three times this year and the American super-middleweight Andre Ward, who is on pace to never fight again to spite his promoter. For the most part though, it's two fights, which give the promoter and PPV network a shot at drumming up mega-events with a weeks-long promotional campaign, an accompanying reality mini-series and trivial lead-up moments captured on YouTube all because on fight night, both men will enter into the theater of the unexpected and reveal their destinies.

But if an elite boxer is only going to fight twice a year, those fights have to be good. The promoters owe it to their fighters, the fighters owe it to their fans, and they both owe it to the competitive spirit of that foregrounds all athletics.

So excuse me for feeling rather underwhelmed at the prospect of Bob Arum matching Manny Pacquiao this coming fall with Chris Algieri, the newly-crowned junior welter from Long Island who wrested the belt by decision from Ruslan Provodnikov last Saturday. Arum had already disclosed his desire to bring Pacquiao back to Macau again in 2014, and he doubled down by weakly committing to give the Algieri-Provodnikov winner “first dibs” against Pacquiao. No offense to Algieri, who gave the boxing world a new lesson about heart, but . . . thanks but no thanks.

There's a whole host of guys who don't have the initials FM or JMM who could form a more compelling, let alone more lucrative fight, with Filipino sensation than a light-punching boxer with no name and a limited game. Marcos Maidana, anyone? Danny Garcia? Amir Khan? Shawn Porter, Keith Thurman, hell even Lucas Matthysse and Adrien Broner all offer more interesting fights than with the Pacman than Chris Algieri.

Even at this point, the 82-year old Arum is still trying to tap into new business and more money and sees Pacquiao as his golden goose to bridge boxing interest into the emerging middle class of the world's most populous country. I understand that Top Rank is investing heavily in the still unrealized potential of flyweight Zou Shiming, but for the sake of the entire sport, should it come at the expense Pacquiao's blood and sweat?

(Catering to the low-wage Chinese common man, Arum has suggested selling the fight card with Shiming and Pacquiao for $4. Can I take this opportunity to point out that boxing fans all over the world are having a hard time shelling out $60-$80 per fight and would love to buy the fight for $4 too? PPV buy numbers are trending down, which is due to a variety of factors, but the cost is certainly prohibitive to the casual fan.)

Pacquiao, god willing and the creek don't rise, is looking at five more fights before calling it a career. Arum's top consideration should be making these fights a series of movements that continue to rise towards to grand crescendo, giving Pacquiao a shot at the late-career glory that Arum's former charge Roberto Duran enjoyed in the late 80's. Even at 35 years old, he’s an elite athlete and the Bradley fight showed he’s got plenty in the tank.

As always with Manny Pacquiao, you have to wonder who is really looking out for him. It's possible that Pacquiao feels a strong pull of fealty towards Bob Arum and may just rather blindly trust him than analyze it more deeply. It’s been a mutually beneficial relationship. It has always been hard to tell if Pacquiao's right-hand man Buboy Fernandez can play the role of advisor in protecting his friend's best interests, but someone should.

Last year it made sense for Manny to fight the one-dimensional slugger Brandon Rios in Macau, 10 months after his devastating knockout to Juan Manuel Marquez. It remains to be seen whether Arum can lure any of the aforementioned name fighters to Southeast Asia to fight Pacquiao, most of them would greatly prefer the more neutral and convenient location in the United States. It may be a smart business decision in the long-run for Arum, but it just doesn’t make sense for Pacquiao right now.

Certainly Freddie Roach did his part in throwing some cold water on Arum's Macau gambit, http://www.thesweetscience.com/news/articles-frontpage/18779-freddie-says-mannys-next-being-in-macau-isnt-set-in-stone telling TSS's Michael Woods earlier this month, “They talk about fighting in China, if these big fights happen, they gotta move the location, because Marquez, Ruslan, those are big fights in America . . . if a China fight does come off, with a high quality tough-tough fight like against Ruslan, they don't know who Ruslan is over there . . . some of those opponents are not gonna go to Macau.”

Whoever is looking out for him better do their best to keep their man interested. He lives a kind of charmed life of a boy who never grew up, is constantly surrounded by a large entourage of friends and hangers-on and is wonderfully impulsive and charismatic. He's a man of many hobbies and distractions, whether it be politics, show business, gambling, charity work, or coaching basketball.

Being and staying a champion in boxing requires near-constant routine, discipline and focus. Twenty years into a career, the roadwork, sparring and rope-jumping has to become mentally rather monotonous. When Pacquiao wants something in the ring, he gets it. When he's bored and unfocused, he's just not the same guy.

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Comment on this article

The Shadow says:

OK, Ward is not trying to sit out his contract to "spite his promoter..." We established that already, it's not fair that continually gets this rep.

"But if an elite boxer is only going to fight twice a year, those fights have to be good. The promoters owe it to their fighters, the fighters owe it to their fans, and they both owe it to the competitive spirit of that foregrounds all athletics."

Wonderful statement.

Hmmm, perhaps TSS needs a weekly segment/commentary as boxing business counterpart to Forbes. No one on the boxing beat is covering the business dealings with that type of legitimacy.

Shoot, I see respected reporters from the hugest of outlets (Bayless, Skip) routinely butcher the most basic of concepts and thereby not informing the public adequately.

Business dealings are a major part of any entertainment sub genre. And let's face it: it has to be explained why the two best fighters can't just get in there ring and fight.

For the casual fans who don't understand, it has to turn them off.

That would be cool.

thegreyman says:

OK, Ward is not trying to sit out his contract to "spite his promoter..." We established that already, it's not fair that continually gets this rep.

"But if an elite boxer is only going to fight twice a year, those fights have to be good. The promoters owe it to their fighters, the fighters owe it to their fans, and they both owe it to the competitive spirit of that foregrounds all athletics."

Wonderful statement.

Hmmm, perhaps TSS needs a weekly segment/commentary as boxing business counterpart to Forbes. No one on the boxing beat is covering the business dealings with that type of legitimacy.

Shoot, I see respected reporters from the hugest of outlets (Bayless, Skip) routinely butcher the most basic of concepts and thereby not informing the public adequately.

And let's face it: business dealings are a major part of any entertainment sub genre.

That would be cool.


I think you'd be the man for the job Shadow. You really seem to know your stuff when it comes to the business side of this shady sport, better than anyone I know.

Personally, I have no interest whatsoever in the business side of boxing.

As far as I'm concerned, if you're not a fighter or a writer, and you're involved in boxing, then you're probably a crook in it for the money, and you're probably not only in the way of big fights, but actively exploiting fighters. And that's not something that entertains me one iota.

oubobcat says:

OK, Ward is not trying to sit out his contract to "spite his promoter..." We established that already, it's not fair that continually gets this rep.

"But if an elite boxer is only going to fight twice a year, those fights have to be good. The promoters owe it to their fighters, the fighters owe it to their fans, and they both owe it to the competitive spirit of that foregrounds all athletics."

Wonderful statement.

Hmmm, perhaps TSS needs a weekly segment/commentary as boxing business counterpart to Forbes. No one on the boxing beat is covering the business dealings with that type of legitimacy.

Shoot, I see respected reporters from the hugest of outlets (Bayless, Skip) routinely butcher the most basic of concepts and thereby not informing the public adequately.

Business dealings are a major part of any entertainment sub genre. And let's face it: it has to be explained why the two best fighters can't just get in there ring and fight.

For the casual fans who don't understand, it has to turn them off.

That would be cool.


Shadow, I know we discussed about the Ward contract situation before and you opened my eyes a little as to what's going on.

One thing though I still don't understand...Why did Ward sign the extension with Goosen in the first place prior to the Dawson fight? Less than a year later, Ward wanted out. That's what's very odd and strange to me given the fact they worked with each other for a considerable amount of time prior.

Its not like Ward signed with a brand new promoter and then didn't like what he saw when they first started working together. Ward worked with Goosen for a long time. Ward did not see signs that maybe he should be thinking about going a different direction prior to signing that extension?

The Shadow says:

I think you'd be the man for the job Shadow. You really seem to know your stuff when it comes to the business side of this shady sport, better than anyone I know.

Personally, I have no interest whatsoever in the business side of boxing.

As far as I'm concerned, if you're not a fighter or a writer, and you're involved in boxing, then you're probably a crook in it for the money, and you're probably not only in the way of big fights, but actively exploiting fighters. And that's not something that entertains me one iota.


Reason I say it is because it must be really, really hard for a casual fan to decipher how the heck the sport can't get the best together and fight.

Realistically, or maybe ideally speaking, it would be the best if the fans said we want Fighter A vs. Fighter B -- now fight! Unfortunately it's not that simple.

If people aren't up-to-date on what goes on on the business end, then I can see why they'd be pi$$ed off. And in a perfect world, guys should just get together and match up.

But even in basketball, fans understand that the salary cap prevents the biggest superstars from getting together and forming super teams (except Heat). Or why guys don't stay loyal to one team.

For that reason, I think it's important that casual fans understand things a bit more so they also don't attribute certain things to popular assumptions such as "boxing is corrupt."

It should never be the biggest story; the athletes are. However in basketball, most fans still understand the limitations of the salary cap, they understand "mid-level exception" and "veteran minimum."

But do casual boxing fans understand "promoter options" (which explains why Arum is adamant about matching Cotto and JCC with Golovkin), percentage splits, A-side/B-side and things of that nature? I'm not sure.

Again, it shouldn't be the focus. But I definitely think it would help to educate the casual boxing fan a lot more.

The Shadow says:

Shadow, I know we discussed about the Ward contract situation before and you opened my eyes a little as to what's going on.

One thing though I still don't understand...Why did Ward sign the extension with Goosen in the first place prior to the Dawson fight? Less than a year later, Ward wanted out. That's what's very odd and strange to me given the fact they worked with each other for a considerable amount of time prior.

Its not like Ward signed with a brand new promoter and then didn't like what he saw when they first started working together. Ward worked with Goosen for a long time. Ward did not see signs that maybe he should be thinking about going a different direction prior to signing that extension?


Not completely sure but according to the one complaint, it's because he didn't honor the new agreement. It's not that they were unhappy before. They became unhappy when he didn't honor the new deal, supposedly.

According to a lawyer I asked, enforcing an oral agreement in court is like "a Hail Mary pass in the fourth quarter." It's a last resort that usually never wins.

They had an oral agreement that was met. However, Goosen may have seen the writing on the wall and reneged on something that wasn't -- for whatever odd reason -- in writing.

Also, at the time of the contract, they were happy with the direction of his career. He was about to go to the SS final. Ten he fought Dawson. After that, he got injured. This seems to be where the issues really started.

So in short, I think they were happy when they signed the new deal. It seems like they just don't feel he's honoring that new deal.

dino da vinci says:

OK, Ward is not trying to sit out his contract to "spite his promoter..." We established that already, it's not fair that continually gets this rep.

"But if an elite boxer is only going to fight twice a year, those fights have to be good. The promoters owe it to their fighters, the fighters owe it to their fans, and they both owe it to the competitive spirit of that foregrounds all athletics."

Wonderful statement.

Hmmm, perhaps TSS needs a weekly segment/commentary as boxing business counterpart to Forbes. No one on the boxing beat is covering the business dealings with that type of legitimacy.

Shoot, I see respected reporters from the hugest of outlets (Bayless, Skip) routinely butcher the most basic of concepts and thereby not informing the public adequately.

Business dealings are a major part of any entertainment sub genre. And let's face it: it has to be explained why the two best fighters can't just get in there ring and fight.

For the casual fans who don't understand, it has to turn them off.

That would be cool.


Skip Bayless? How about Stephen A. Smith! I felt he was on the fast track to being the best ever at his craft. I assumed he was that rare guy who just gets it and happens to be deeply insightful in more than one sport. While I admit I'm still a huge fan of the man, he clearly dropped a notch or three following his rant after the Pacquiao vs Bradley I bout. His comments, and I hope I'm accurate with this, called for a boycott of sorts. It became evident that Stephen A. wasn't aware that the ineptness of the scoring was not Arum/Top Rank based, but defective judging by appointees of state government. Arum, Trampler & Co. are about as good of a cast as can be assembled. They control one half of what will be the greatest generating fight in boxing history. And by quite a bit. Can you fathom a scenario where they would want to see Pacman get knocked off?

The Shadow says:

Skip Bayless? How about Stephen A. Smith! I felt he was on the fast track to being the best ever at his craft. I assumed he was that rare guy who just gets it and happens to be deeply insightful in more than one sport. While I admit I'm still a huge fan of the man, he clearly dropped a notch or three following his rant after the Pacquiao vs Bradley I bout. His comments, and I hope I'm accurate with this, called for a boycott of sorts. It became evident that Stephen A. wasn't aware that the ineptness of the scoring was not Arum/Top Rank based, but defective judging by appointees of state government. Arum, Trampler & Co. are about as good of a cast as can be assembled. They control one half of what will be the greatest generating fight in boxing history. And by quite a bit. Can you fathom a scenario where they would want to see Pacman get knocked off?


Yeah, I remember him talking about this. But I think the boycott was just as much to influence the decision makers behind Mayweather and Pacquiao to finally figure it out.

And yes, Stephen A. Smith did seem like that cat who had some knowledge because Bayless clearly has little. He always likes to talk about how he used to cover Sugar Leonard but what the heck does that matter? I once covered volleyball because I had to. I know NOTHING of it.

But that's an interesting question you pose... I don't think Arum, DuBoef and Trampler truly want that mega fight. Even though it could be the greatest generating fight in history, the real breadwinner is the one who controls the promotion.

Right now, Mayweather has that leverage. And Arum, being the superb businessman that he is, likes to control the whole pie.

If TR only gets a percentage of that pie, he makes more doing Manny vs Cheap Opponent. A source told me he makes $30m or maybe more on just two Manny fights.

They won't see that versus Mayweather. The margins just aren't there. Arum makes more doing Manny-Rios than taking a 27-33% cut of Manny's $40m. Add that to the fact that Mayweather is a stylistic nightmare for Manny, they're better off holding off that fight for as long as they can.

It's reached ridiculous mythical proportions anyway; I think the fight might do regret numbers regardless.

Anyway, I think you bring up something crucial that lots of people know nothing about or even halfway understand. Te fact that judges are chosen by government and not promoter.

You promote too from what I understand right? How is it that the hometown fighter will consistently win a fight, earned or not, on smaller shows? Where does the influence come from? Or are the judges on smaller shows how's appointed by promoters in this case?

Radam G says:

Yeah, I remember him talking about this. But I think the boycott was just as much to influence the decision makers behind Mayweather and Pacquiao to finally figure it out.

And yes, Stephen A. Smith did seem like that cat who had some knowledge because Bayless clearly has little. He always likes to talk about how he used to cover Sugar Leonard but what the heck does that matter? I once covered volleyball because I had to. I know NOTHING of it.

But that's an interesting question you pose... I don't think Arum, DuBoef and Trampler truly want that mega fight. Even though it could be the greatest generating fight in history, the real breadwinner is the one who controls the promotion.

Right now, Mayweather has that leverage. And Arum, being the superb businessman that he is, likes to control the whole pie.

If TR only gets a percentage of that pie, he makes more doing Manny vs Cheap Opponent. A source told me he makes $30m or maybe more on just two Manny fights.

They won't see that versus Mayweather. The margins just aren't there. Arum makes more doing Manny-Rios than taking a 27-33% cut of Manny's $40m. Add that to the fact that Mayweather is a stylistic nightmare for Manny, they're better off holding off that fight for as long as they can.

It's reached ridiculous mythical proportions anyway; I think the fight might do regret numbers regardless.

Anyway, I think you bring up something crucial that lots of people know nothing about or even halfway understand. Te fact that judges are chosen by government and not promoter.

You promote too from what I understand right? How is it that the hometown fighter will consistently win a fight, earned or not, on smaller shows? Where does the influence come from? Or are the judges on smaller shows how's appointed by promoters in this case?


Sorry, The Shadow. But Da Manny will kayo "Lil' Floyd's arse early. The whole Mayweather fam know da haps. Holla!

The Shadow says:

Sorry, The Shadow. But Da Manny will kayo "Lil' Floyd's arse early. The whole Mayweather fam know da haps. Holla!


Even if that were to happen, Bob Arum doesn't believe this. He (or should I say Bruce, who is Bob's filter) doesn't even feel fully confident matching him with AB.

Radam G says:

Even if that were to happen, Bob Arum doesn't believe this. He (or should I say Bruce, who is Bob's filter) doesn't even feel fully confident matching him with AB.


Because there is no hook for Da Manny slaughtering AB. This is a terrible copycat of Money May. AB blind himself with his bad imitation of the fam May's shoulder roll.

Da Manny would kayo AB in a round or two, reminiscent of Ricky Hatton getting PacKTFO. Holla!

dino da vinci says:

@The Shadow. There are judges who are very aware of where the promoter's interests lie, and are unashamed to do their very best in helping the promoter meet his expectations. Simple logic really. Promoter's fighters keep winning, more good things will happen for the promoter, usually resulting in more shows, resulting in more work for said judge. Vulgar, really.

We had a show Saturday night. Before the first bout it was I who was reinforcing 'Get it right. It's vital the winner gets his hand raised. A fighter earns it, it's imperative he's awarded the victory.'

The Shadow says:

Because there is no hook for Da Manny slaughtering AB. This AB joke-a-poke is a terrible copycat of Money May. AB blind himself with his bad imitation of the fam May's shoulder roll.

Da Manny would kayo AB in a round or two, reminiscent of Ricky Hatton getting PacKTFO. Holla!


Maybe with Ariza in his corner. Keep in mind, this supposedly destructive puncher hasn't had a KO in FIVE years. He has had only one knockdown since facing Cotto (Marquez was off-balance more than anything).

He doesn't punch harder than Marcos Maidana, at least I don't think he does (haven't been hit by either and I certainly don't intend to lol).

I don't see Pacquiao stopping AB or any other top welter at this moment. He couldn't even finish Rios, a guy he would've pummeled into a coma four or five years ago.

He might stop Jesus Soto-Krash or Andre Berto, if he can connect.

Also, I think AB beats JMM rather handily. And for the record, JMM is one of my favorite fighters. Like him far more than AB who's not even in my Top 25 of fighters I root for. (TBH I don't root for him at all.)

But let's keep it real, Pacquiao's not stopping anybody anymore.

The Shadow says:

@The Shadow. There are judges who are very aware of where the promoter's interests lie, and are unashamed to do their very best in helping the promoter meet his expectations. Simple logic really. Promoter's fighters keep winning, more good things will happen for the promoter, usually resulting in more shows, resulting in more work for said judge. Vulgar, really.

We had a show Saturday night. Before the first bout it was I who was reinforcing 'Get it right. It's vital the winner gets his hand raised. A fighter earns it, it's imperative he's awarded the victory.'


Yes, I imagined something like that. It is vulgar. But the logic, sadly, makes sense. I'm happy you operate like that. I applaud you.

I've heard that in some cases, the judges will be wined and dined by promoters, basically leaving them with the impression that if they want perks like that, the promoter's guy obviously has to win. Have you seen this?

How did the show go? Nice turnout? Did your men perform well?

thegreyman says:

Maybe with Ariza in his corner. Keep in mind, this supposedly destructive puncher hasn't had a KO in FIVE years. He has had only one knockdown since facing Cotto (Marquez was off-balance more than anything).

He doesn't punch harder than Marcos Maidana, at least I don't think he does (haven't been hit by either and I certainly don't intend to lol).

I don't see Pacquiao stopping AB or any other top welter at this moment. He couldn't even finish Rios, a guy he would've pummeled into a coma four or five years ago.

He might stop Jesus Soto-Krash or Andre Berto, if he can connect.

Also, I think AB beats JMM rather handily. And for the record, JMM is one of my favorite fighters. Like him far more than AB who's not even in my Top 25 of fighters I root for. (TBH I don't root for him at all.)

But let's keep it real, Pacquiao's not stopping anybody anymore.



I think you're coming down too hard on the Congressman, Shadow.

Everyone keeps saying Pac has no 'snap' or 'pop' or even power in his punches any more. I think that's flat out not true.

He destroyed Cotto, and after him fought a string of tough guys with solid chins. Let's not forget that Pac is fighting well above his comfort zone at 147/54.

Clottey had a SOLID chin. The guy's head was made of wood or something. There was nothing wrong with Pacquiao's punches, though Pac was considerably smaller in that fight. It's tough to stop a guy bigger than you, with a great chin. Let's not forget that Clottey has never been stopped either- even by Cotto, when Cotto was knocking guys out left right and centre.

Margarito could easily have been stopped by Pacquiao, but Pacquiao chose not to. He was looking at the ref waiting for him to stop the fight. Pac had no desire to possibly kill the guy, so he let him finish.

Marquaez and Bradley are both great boxers, and its a testament to their skill that they can both prevent Pac from planting himself long enough to land too many big power shots. Good boxers like those two can keep their opponent off balance just enough to stop the biggest punches coming their way. Not to mention the great defence of both guys.

Bradley is also another one of these wooden headed guys that can seem to take unlimited amounts of punishment, and still keep going. Provodnikov turned Bradley's brains to jelly, and STILL never managed to completely stop the cogs from turning, so I don't look down on Pac for not being able to KO the guy. Provo punches like a middleweight and couldn't do it.

Brandon Rios, again, a guy with a great chin, who's never been stopped. The guy actually ENJOYS taking punishment, so I don't think it reflects badly on Pac that he didn't get the KO.

You can make what you want of the Ariza situation, but until it can be proven, it's all just speculation, and I'd rather stick to the facts. Besides, I don't personally subscribe to the theory of a magic pill giving and taking away knock-out power. A punch is a transfer of weight more than a contraction of muscles.

Skibbz says:

I think you're coming down too hard on the Congressman, Shadow.

Everyone keeps saying Pac has no 'snap' or 'pop' or even power in his punches any more. I think that's flat out not true.

He destroyed Cotto, and after him fought a string of tough guys with solid chins. Let's not forget that Pac is fighting well above his comfort zone at 147/54.

Clottey had a SOLID chin. The guy's head was made of wood or something. There was nothing wrong with Pacquiao's punches, though Pac was considerably smaller in that fight. It's tough to stop a guy bigger than you, with a great chin. Let's not forget that Clottey has never been stopped either- even by Cotto, when Cotto was knocking guys out left right and centre.

Margarito could easily have been stopped by Pacquiao, but Pacquiao chose not to. He was looking at the ref waiting for him to stop the fight. Pac had no desire to possibly kill the guy, so he let him finish.

Marquaez and Bradley are both great boxers, and its a testament to their skill that they can both prevent Pac from planting himself long enough to land too many big power shots. Good boxers like those two can keep their opponent off balance just enough to stop the biggest punches coming their way. Not to mention the great defence of both guys.

Bradley is also another one of these wooden headed guys that can seem to take unlimited amounts of punishment, and still keep going. Provodnikov turned Bradley's brains to jelly, and STILL never managed to completely stop the cogs from turning, so I don't look down on Pac for not being able to KO the guy. Provo punches like a middleweight and couldn't do it.

Brandon Rios, again, a guy with a great chin, who's never been stopped. The guy actually ENJOYS taking punishment, so I don't think it reflects badly on Pac that he didn't get the KO.

You can make what you want of the Ariza situation, but until it can be proven, it's all just speculation, and I'd rather stick to the facts. Besides, I don't personally subscribe to the theory of a magic pill giving and taking away knock-out power. A punch is a transfer of weight more than a contraction of muscles.


Very well said Greyman. I do agree that Pac hasn't scored a knock out and perhaps the sting has left his punches but that's to be expected. He can't possibly be fighting with the same zeal he had in his youth. Even Duran toward the tail end of his career when he was fighting in weights he was not suited to wasn't knocking every one out. He got a few guys but their wills were broken long before they faced him and the stoppages looked inevitable from the opening bell.

With age comes experience, and you know you don't have to take a lot of punishment to deal out a relatively consistent amount of punishment to your opponent. Before when Pac was knocking his opponents out, he too was getting hit and even dropped. Now he's taking less damage and arguably battering his opponents even worse, even if his punches aren't as electrifying as they used to be.

And alluding to Ariza and the use of PED's is nothing but unfounded claims. When we receive facts with real evidence to prove them then we can really get into that debate. For now, it is nothing but a claim and there are a million more where they came from.

The Shadow says:

I think you're coming down too hard on the Congressman, Shadow.

Everyone keeps saying Pac has no 'snap' or 'pop' or even power in his punches any more. I think that's flat out not true.

He destroyed Cotto, and after him fought a string of tough guys with solid chins. Let's not forget that Pac is fighting well above his comfort zone at 147/54.

Clottey had a SOLID chin. The guy's head was made of wood or something. There was nothing wrong with Pacquiao's punches, though Pac was considerably smaller in that fight. It's tough to stop a guy bigger than you, with a great chin. Let's not forget that Clottey has never been stopped either- even by Cotto, when Cotto was knocking guys out left right and centre.

Margarito could easily have been stopped by Pacquiao, but Pacquiao chose not to. He was looking at the ref waiting for him to stop the fight. Pac had no desire to possibly kill the guy, so he let him finish.

Marquaez and Bradley are both great boxers, and its a testament to their skill that they can both prevent Pac from planting himself long enough to land too many big power shots. Good boxers like those two can keep their opponent off balance just enough to stop the biggest punches coming their way. Not to mention the great defence of both guys.

Bradley is also another one of these wooden headed guys that can seem to take unlimited amounts of punishment, and still keep going. Provodnikov turned Bradley's brains to jelly, and STILL never managed to completely stop the cogs from turning, so I don't look down on Pac for not being able to KO the guy. Provo punches like a middleweight and couldn't do it.

Brandon Rios, again, a guy with a great chin, who's never been stopped. The guy actually ENJOYS taking punishment, so I don't think it reflects badly on Pac that he didn't get the KO.

You can make what you want of the Ariza situation, but until it can be proven, it's all just speculation, and I'd rather stick to the facts. Besides, I don't personally subscribe to the theory of a magic pill giving and taking away knock-out power. A punch is a transfer of weight more than a contraction of muscles.

And AB would stand no chance if you ask me. No chance at all.


I am sticking to the the facts. And the fact is since Ariza left, he hasn't shown the same explosiveness.

I didn't say anything at all about drugs (though we should know by now not to put that past anyone). I'm just saying he was far more explosive with him there, starting with the David Diaz fight. Maybe it's the plyometrics. You can clearly see the wonders the regimen has done for Maidana.

You're right about those guys. But before he faced those other guys he just beat near to death, they were known to be pretty sturdy guys themselves. In fact, I don't see his competition having gotten better since.

And keep in mind -- Bradley HIMSELF has said that the same power isn't there. That he doesn't punch as hard as he did two years ago. That happened to be his last fight with Ariza. The first fight without Ariza, he was flatlined.

Also, it's just not a stoppage; it's no knockdowns. And it's based on this fact that I see no evidence that Manny Pacquiao will stop the greatest defensive fighter in history in a few rounds.

Regarding AB, you can think that and that's cool; we don't know. I didn't say whether he did or not; I just know that the people who run things aren't anxious to find out.

I do think AB beats Marquez handily, potentially by stoppage.

The Shadow says:



And alluding to Ariza and the use of PED's is nothing but unfounded claims. When we receive facts with real evidence to prove them then we can really get into that debate. For now, it is nothing but a claim and there are a million more where they came from.


I don't know where the PED thing came from. I simply said that his results with Ariza as opposed to without are dramatic. And you can see the effects he has had on Maidana.

Based on him not knocking anyone cold in over FIVE years and especially how he looks now, I see no evidence he can KO the greatest defensive fighter in history in a few rounds. That's ludicrous.

That said, at no point did I infuse PED use into the debate. I simply said that Ariza has been the one constant during his reign of terror. And that is true after all.

Skibbz says:

I am sticking to the the facts. And the fact is since Ariza left, he hasn't shown the same explosiveness.

I didn't say anything at all about drugs (though we should know by now not to put that past anyone). I'm just saying he was far more explosive with him there, starting with the David Diaz fight. Maybe it's the plyometrics. You can clearly see the wonders the regimen has done for Maidana.

You're right about those guys. But before he faced those other guys he just beat near to death, they were known to be pretty sturdy guys themselves. In fact, I don't see his competition having gotten better since.

And keep in mind -- Bradley HIMSELF has said that the same power isn't there. That he doesn't punch as hard as he did two years ago. That happened to be his last fight with Ariza. The first fight without Ariza, he was flatlined.

Also, it's just not a stoppage; it's no knockdowns. And it's based on this fact that I see no evidence that Manny Pacquiao will stop the greatest defensive fighter in history in a few rounds.

Regarding AB, you can think that and that's cool; we don't know. I didn't say whether he did or not; I just know that the people who run things aren't anxious to find out.

I do think AB beats Marquez handily, potentially by stoppage.


I think you have forgotten that Pacquiao floored Marquez in their last fight.

At which weight do you foresee Adrien "Problem Solved" Broner stopping the 40 year old veteran? I'm sorry but if Bradley couldn't do it, Alvarado couldn't do it and Pacquiao in his latest attempt couldn't do it although he put him down with a beautiful left hand.

Adrien Broner, who in his last two performances has been C level at BEST, would certainly not do it. I fail to see why you rate this guy so highly.

Skibbz says:

I am sticking to the the facts. And the fact is since Ariza left, he hasn't shown the same explosiveness.

I didn't say anything at all about drugs (though we should know by now not to put that past anyone). I'm just saying he was far more explosive with him there, starting with the David Diaz fight. Maybe it's the plyometrics. You can clearly see the wonders the regimen has done for Maidana.

You're right about those guys. But before he faced those other guys he just beat near to death, they were known to be pretty sturdy guys themselves. In fact, I don't see his competition having gotten better since.

And keep in mind -- Bradley HIMSELF has said that the same power isn't there. That he doesn't punch as hard as he did two years ago. That happened to be his last fight with Ariza. The first fight without Ariza, he was flatlined.

Also, it's just not a stoppage; it's no knockdowns. And it's based on this fact that I see no evidence that Manny Pacquiao will stop the greatest defensive fighter in history in a few rounds.

Regarding AB, you can think that and that's cool; we don't know. I didn't say whether he did or not; I just know that the people who run things aren't anxious to find out.

I do think AB beats Marquez handily, potentially by stoppage.


I think you have forgotten that Pacquiao floored Marquez in their last fight.

At which weight do you foresee Adrien "Problem Solved" Broner stopping the 40 year old veteran? I'm sorry but if Bradley couldn't do it, Alvarado couldn't do it and Pacquiao in his latest attempt couldn't do it although he put him down with a beautiful left hand.

Adrien Broner, who in his last two performances has been C level at BEST, would certainly not do it. I fail to see why you rate this guy so highly.

Skibbz says:

I don't know where the PED thing came from. I simply said that his results with Ariza as opposed to without are dramatic. And you can see the effects he has had on Maidana.

Based on him not knocking anyone cold in over FIVE years and especially how he looks now, I see no evidence he can KO the greatest defensive fighter in history in a few rounds. That's ludicrous.

That said, at no point did I infuse PED use into the debate. I simply said that Ariza has been the one constant during his reign of terror. And that is true after all.


Well Maidana's always had a punch, and with his improved diet and training his ability to find the right punch has improved. Ariza is not a peddler in my opinion. He is a solid nutritionist, and nutrition is the key to success. PED's don't give you a punch, and will only worsen your power in any case. Once you stop taking PED's, your physicality will diminish at an astonishing fast pace and you will find it even harder to improve your conditioning than before. The natural world has all the answers a boxer needs.

Ariza has not been the one constant in his 'reign of terror'. Pacquiao has been knocking guys out since he first punched a guy when he was small. He has a punch and there's no disputing it. Now he's more experienced he's less likely to leave himself vulnerable to a punch (he's no defensive wizard) so he will rather get you with 5 or 6 punches in good combinations than go for that one sledgehammer blow that pulverises his opponent.. Should it land. should he miss he leaves himself open. Too many times in his career he has left himself open and been caught. He has simply learned from his mistakes and improved himself as a fighter.

KO's don't determine anything, taking home the W is all that matters.

The Shadow says:

I think you have forgotten that Pacquiao floored Marquez in their last fight.

At which weight do you foresee Adrien "Problem Solved" Broner stopping the 40 year old veteran? I'm sorry but if Bradley couldn't do it, Alvarado couldn't do it and Pacquiao in his latest attempt couldn't do it although he put him down with a beautiful left hand.

Adrien Broner, who in his last two performances has been C level at BEST, would certainly not do it. I fail to see why you rate this guy so highly.


I did mention Marquez in my initial post. I don't recall a left hand flooring Marquez, it was more of a balance thing from a right hook, if I remember correctly? (I could be wrong.)

I think those new deltoids on that little frame might make his balance a little shaky. LOL.

They're not going to fight so no need to get into all that. I do think he beats him handily, though, based on styles and certain other factors that I'm not trying to get into.

I don't think I'm overrating him at all. It's a matchup between two three-division champions with one guy in his 20's having the stylistic edge over the veteran guy in his 40's.

I think one way, you think another and that's fair enough. Time will tell. If he returns to form, I'll be reminding you of this convo though!

The Shadow says:

KO's don't determine anything, taking home the W is all that matters.


True, but that wasn't the point of the discussion. At least not for me. I was just stating why I didn't think a guy who hasn't had a stoppage in five years would KO the greatest defensive fighter alive.

Skibbz says:

I did mention Marquez in my initial post. I don't recall a left hand flooring Marquez, it was more of a balance thing from a right hook, if I remember correctly? (I could be wrong.)

I think those new deltoids on that little frame might make his balance a little shaky. LOL.

They're not going to fight so no need to get into all that. I do think he beats him handily, though, based on styles and certain other factors that I'm not trying to get into.

I don't think I'm overrating him at all. It's a matchup between two three-division champions with one guy in his 20's having the stylistic edge over the veteran guy in his 40's.

I think one way, you think another and that's fair enough. Time will tell. If he returns to form, I'll be reminding you of this convo though!


Hahaha you're right and the fact is Broner is 3 div champ. That gives him a certain standing in the record books. But the reality - the pudding - is that AB is not worth those 3 belts! We shall see where he is in 2 years time. Care to make a prediction?

The Shadow says:

Hahaha you're right and the fact is Broner is 3 div champ. That gives him a certain standing in the record books. But the reality - the pudding - is that AB is not worth those 3 belts! We shall see where he is in 2 years time. Care to make a prediction?


Hmmm....give me few minutes to think about that one. I have to look at the landscape a little to see how they might match him.

And for sure, JMM's three titles are FAR more legit to me (then add the sketchy 140 WBO interim belt that was elevated to full title by stripping Bradley once he "won" the 147 version). He's a badass. Real lightweight champ, featherweight, super feather...

Let me get back to you on that. But I like that idea, give me yours too!

The Shadow says:

Hahaha you're right and the fact is Broner is 3 div champ. That gives him a certain standing in the record books. But the reality - the pudding - is that AB is not worth those 3 belts! We shall see where he is in 2 years time. Care to make a prediction?


Hmmm....give me few minutes to think about that one. I have to look at the landscape a little to see how they might match him.

And for sure, JMM's three titles are FAR more legit to me (then add the sketchy 140 WBO interim belt that was elevated to full title by stripping Bradley once he "won" the 147 version). He's a badass. Real lightweight champ, featherweight, super feather...

Let me get back to you on that. But I like that idea, give me yours too!

The Commish says:

I have been dealing with boxing fans for over 40 years. The most common words I hear are them telling me "I can't stand the business side of boxing. I can't stand hearing about it, I can't stand reading about it. It's boring." With that in mind, I do my best not to either talk or write about boxing business--the whys and hows of the sport. Like you, I prefer watching the fighters in action, not thinking, talking and writing about money, percentages, PPV numbers, contractual issues the merits of Macua over Las Vegas, PED issues and commission-issued suspensions.

Bob Arum knows what he's doing. Over in China, he has an audience that is around 1.5 billion. That's BILLION. He has been in this sport long enough to know what sells and what doesn't. He also knows what he can sell and what he can't. If he feels Pacquiao-Algieri can be sold, he'll sell it. Hey, he could put on Pacquiao against a hot dog vender and sell it. All he has to do over there is simple: put on Zou Shiming. Zou has more fans over there than Floyd Mayweather and Justin Bieber have over here--combined.

Leave it to Bob Arum and Top Rank. I'm sure that the business-savvy Manny Pacquiao will not say he's being mis-handled by the time Bob Arum announces who he will be fighting next.

-Randy G.

thegreyman says:

I say he'll be fighting chumps and nobodies in 2 years. He's not got the skills to mix it up with the elites. You can only cherry pick a guy like Broner's opponents for so long before he has to fight someone with a little skill.

It all depends on his lifestyle and attitude too. Unless he cuts out the crappy eating and drinking, and starts training seriously for fights, he'll go nowhere fast.

Who did he fight last? A nobody, and he couldn't even get a nobody out of the ring. I haven't bothered to watch his fight, but I hear it was boring, and you don't go far by beating nobodies in boring fashion. There's much bigger names at 140 and 147 than AB, and there's more quickly rising. Broner will be swept under the rug to fight other people's leftovers, where he belongs.

He'd stand a better chance in the music industry: at least you don't seem to need any skill to go far in that world.

The Shadow says:

While I drop a lot here, certain things I don't divulge. That said, y'all are about to see what time it is. Just watch the rematch. Talk about a déjà vu. Mayweather TKO10. VIOLENTLY!

Radam G says:

Maybe with Ariza in his corner. Keep in mind, this supposedly destructive puncher hasn't had a KO in FIVE years. He has had only one knockdown since facing Cotto (Marquez was off-balance more than anything).

He doesn't punch harder than Marcos Maidana, at least I don't think he does (haven't been hit by either and I certainly don't intend to lol).

I don't see Pacquiao stopping AB or any other top welter at this moment. He couldn't even finish Rios, a guy he would've pummeled into a coma four or five years ago.

He might stop Jesus Soto-Krash or Andre Berto, if he can connect.

Also, I think AB beats JMM rather handily. And for the record, JMM is one of my favorite fighters. Like him far more than AB who's not even in my Top 25 of fighters I root for. (TBH I don't root for him at all.)

But let's keep it real, Pacquiao's not stopping anybody anymore.


Da Manny can blast. It is just that he has fought fighters that virtually nobody kayos. Alex Aria was glorified water boy. Holla!

Radam G says:

Maybe with Ariza in his corner. Keep in mind, this supposedly destructive puncher hasn't had a KO in FIVE years. He has had only one knockdown since facing Cotto (Marquez was off-balance more than anything).

He doesn't punch harder than Marcos Maidana, at least I don't think he does (haven't been hit by either and I certainly don't intend to lol).

I don't see Pacquiao stopping AB or any other top welter at this moment. He couldn't even finish Rios, a guy he would've pummeled into a coma four or five years ago.

He might stop Jesus Soto-Krash or Andre Berto, if he can connect.

Also, I think AB beats JMM rather handily. And for the record, JMM is one of my favorite fighters. Like him far more than AB who's not even in my Top 25 of fighters I root for. (TBH I don't root for him at all.)

But let's keep it real, Pacquiao's not stopping anybody anymore.


Da Manny can still blast. It is just that he has fought fighters that virtually nobody kayos. Alex Ariza was glorified water boy. And, BTW, Hulkquez kayos Broner. Even Marquez, off dat syet, kayos Broner. Holla!

thegreyman says:

I agree Radam. Manny's been fighting guys with rock solid chins. Guys that enjoy a beating and come back for more. Manny is always happy to oblige though!

Marquez would get Broner out of there well inside the distance. Easy nights work for the Hall of Famer.

oubobcat says:

I agree Radam. Manny's been fighting guys with rock solid chins. Guys that enjoy a beating and come back for more. Manny is always happy to oblige though!

Marquez would get Broner out of there well inside the distance. Easy nights work for the Hall of Famer.

Also, I hear Ariza's been sacked from Garcia's gym now, so the glorified water boy isn't going to be around to stir up controversy for a while.


I agree Grey, right now Broner would be an easy nights work for Marquez. Broner's style suits Marquez well. He is not active in the ring and leaves many openings. Marquez too good a counter puncher and would make Broner pay for each and every mistake he makes inside the ring.

Radam G says:

I have been dealing with boxing fans for over 40 years. The most common words I hear are them telling me "I can't stand the business side of boxing. I can't stand hearing about it, I can't stand reading about it. It's boring." With that in mind, I do my best not to either talk or write about boxing business--the whys and hows of the sport. Like you, I prefer watching the fighters in action, not thinking, talking and writing about money, percentages, PPV numbers, contractual issues the merits of Macua over Las Vegas, PED issues and commission-issued suspensions.

Bob Arum knows what he's doing. Over in China, he has an audience that is around 1.5 billion. That's BILLION. He has been in this sport long enough to know what sells and what doesn't. He also knows what he can sell and what he can't. If he feels Pacquiao-Algieri can be sold, he'll sell it. Hey, he could put on Pacquiao against a hot dog vender and sell it. All he has to do over there is simple: put on Zou Shiming. Zou has more fans over there than Floyd Mayweather and Justin Bieber have over here--combined.

Leave it to Bob Arum and Top Rank. I'm sure that the business-savvy Manny Pacquiao will not say he's being mis-handled by the time Bob Arum announces who he will be fighting next.

-Randy G.


Da Bobfather "could put on Pacquiao against a hot dog vender and sell it." Hehehehe!

Good one , Commish. You got jokes. Hahaha! Holla!

thegreyman says:

Every mistake indeed, and he makes a lot of them!

dino da vinci says:

I don't think I'm overrating him at all. It's a matchup between two three-division champions with one guy in his 20's having the stylistic edge over the veteran guy in 40's.


WHOOOOOW! Not so fast. We're quickly getting to the point where everyone will be handed a strap upon making their pro debut so everyone will be a champion at least once, (sort of like in kindergarten where there are no losers) and Broner is so close to this description we may name the process after him.

i.e. 'Julio Cesar Chavez, Jr was bronered last night with his win over Victor Ortiz for the newly created WWB, along with their newly created weight division that's to be known as Junior Light Junior Heavyweight. The WWB President CJ Ross stated the weight limitations are temporarily fixed at 191 to192 pounds. "We feel this is a very neglected weight range in the sport of boxing. Tomorrow, we'll be taking submissions for the interim to the interim Junior Light Junior Heavyweight Title. When asked what does WWB stand for, President/Vice President/Sole Scoring Judge Ross stated, nothing yet, it was the last three letter combination available...and we're happy to have it.

_________________________________________________________


Express lane, no waiting! Shadow, he's a fabrication.

brownsugar says:

WHOOOOOW! Not so fast. We're quickly getting to the point where everyone will be handed a strap upon making their pro debut so everyone will be a champion at least once, (sort of like in kindergarten where there are no losers) and Broner is so close to this description we may name the process after him.

i.e. 'Julio Cesar Chavez, Jr was bronered last night with his win over Victor Ortiz for the newly created WWB, along with their newly created weight division that's to be known as Junior Light Junior Heavyweight. The WWB President CJ Ross stated the weight limitations are temporarily fixed at 191 to192 pounds. "We feel this is a very neglected weight range in the sport of boxing. Tomorrow, we'll be taking submissions for the interim to the interim Junior Light Junior Heavyweight Title. When asked what does WWB stand for, President/Vice President/Sole Scoring Judge Ross stated, nothing yet, it was the last three letter combination available...and we're happy to have it.

_________________________________________________________


Express lane, no waiting! Shadow, he's a fabrication.


Ha!..

That was some pretty clever satire Dino..

Whats so scarry is that it my not be far from the truth.

thegreyman says:

WHOOOOOW! Not so fast. We're quickly getting to the point where everyone will be handed a strap upon making their pro debut so everyone will be a champion at least once, (sort of like in kindergarten where there are no losers) and Broner is so close to this description we may name the process after him.

i.e. 'Julio Cesar Chavez, Jr was bronered last night with his win over Victor Ortiz for the newly created WWB, along with their newly created weight division that's to be known as Junior Light Junior Heavyweight. The WWB President CJ Ross stated the weight limitations are temporarily fixed at 191 to192 pounds. "We feel this is a very neglected weight range in the sport of boxing. Tomorrow, we'll be taking submissions for the interim to the interim Junior Light Junior Heavyweight Title. When asked what does WWB stand for, President/Vice President/Sole Scoring Judge Ross stated, nothing yet, it was the last three letter combination available...and we're happy to have it.

_________________________________________________________


Express lane, no waiting! Shadow, he's a fabrication.


Hahaha very funny Dino, made me chuckle!

Radam G says:

WHOOOOOW! Not so fast. We're quickly getting to the point where everyone will be handed a strap upon making their pro debut so everyone will be a champion at least once, (sort of like in kindergarten where there are no losers) and Broner is so close to this description we may name the process after him.

i.e. 'Julio Cesar Chavez, Jr was bronered last night with his win over Victor Ortiz for the newly created WWB, along with their newly created weight division that's to be known as Junior Light Junior Heavyweight. The WWB President CJ Ross stated the weight limitations are temporarily fixed at 191 to192 pounds. "We feel this is a very neglected weight range in the sport of boxing. Tomorrow, we'll be taking submissions for the interim to the interim Junior Light Junior Heavyweight Title. When asked what does WWB stand for, President/Vice President/Sole Scoring Judge Ross stated, nothing yet, it was the last three letter combination available...and we're happy to have it.

_________________________________________________________


Express lane, no waiting! Shadow, he's a fabrication.


Wow! Hehehehe! DDV really has JOKES. We have to award him "The Roast Award For Witty Comedy." Holla!

Skibbz says:

Hahaha very funny Dino, made me chuckle!


made me chuckle too...

It seems Broner doesn't have too many fans on this site...

thegreyman says:

made me chuckle too...

It seems Broner doesn't have too many fans on this site...


I can't imagine he has any anywhere... I've never met one, never seen one online, and I struggle to imagine the type of fool that would be attracted to his personality.

He's like a court jester- the only entertainment we get from him is when he embarrasses himself for our enjoyment. He was a fighter once, but he's an imitator now.

The Shadow says:

made me chuckle too...

It seems Broner doesn't have too many fans on this site...


Lol he sure doesn't!

But here's the difference between my assessment of Adrien Broner and the assessment of many others: I have no like nor any dislike for Broner. Zero. I'm completely indifferent.

With all due respect to Dino's opinion, he has a bias qua his position. In addition to that, he doesn't like him. That feeling is shared by many. I get that. Considering that, it is nearly impossible to evaluate him objectively.

When he was being lauded on HBO, I failed to see what the hoopla was about. Then I sat down and looked at him closely. Fights, training habits, testimonies. As many of you may sense, I'm big on mental intangibles. I looked at that too.

Then I spoke to people in and around his camp, people that had gone through his camp, prospects, current world champions and super trainers. Guys with no dog in the race. Emmanuel Stweard. Tim Bradley. Andre Ward. Virgil Hunter. Naazim Richardson. Albert Bell.

They all said the same thing. With conviction. I can't just disregard that.

That whole "give belts to everyone" is sort of silly. Honestly. OK, the 130 belt means nothing to me. It was a vacant belt against a jabroni, and the fringe WBO trinket at that. Most guys are steered towards a title. Like Lomachenko.

(That said, to be fair, this was the very same Dollar Tree plastic belt Oscar DLH was given beating who could be the worst champion in history in Jimmi Bredahl. Not to mention the organization in which HOF'er DLH won half of his divisional titles, if I'm not mistaken. And the WBO has more legitimacy now than it did then, though I have no idea why. And I've seen far bigger gift-wrapped titles than the fringe belt awarded to Broner. Chavez Jr.? Erik Morales? )

What was he doing at 135 then? Smashing every guy he fought, won the title in his first outing there while the rest of the division ran from him while he was trying to unify, even though he was the biggest fight for any other titleholder.

Lastly, he jumped two weight classes and dethroned Paulie Malignaggi. Regardless of what anyone thinks of Paulie, he went overseas and a TOOK that belt from the undefeated titlist. Even if people disregard his legitimacy as champion, I don't see any other lightweight jumping up and challenging Malignaggi to that extent -- especially not a fabrication.

I mean, come on now. Let's be serious.

And people say Marquez beats him. I LOVE Marquez. I honestly think he's my favorite fighter; he's up there for sure. But let's he serious here. Bradley doing his worst Mayweather impression beat him. Broner can impersonate Mayweather better than Bradley can.

This is just speculation however; we don't know any of this. Unlike everything else I said, which we DO know.

Now on to Broner the man. Do I find the hubris annoying? Sometimes.

I also found it annoying that he was so quick to self-laud and compare his skill set on Twitter to Floyd's "me and big bro make it look so a easy that's why people hate" or "me and big bro got that s*** you can't teach."

But I won't let a public persona or certain immature behavioral traits cloud my evaluation of his grit, work ethic (despite what many of you think, he's one of the hardest workers in the game; that comes straight from those same people), skill, determination, accomplishments and so forth.

Do I think he's as good as he says? Absolutely not. Do I think he's as bad as people make him out to be now? Hell no.

Skibbz, to address your question from yesterday:

- In two years, he will have joined an upper echelon of a select few fighters in history -- less than 15 (!) -- to have won titles in four different weight divisions, while looking towards challenging for a fifth.

- He will be a PPV fighter, drawing between 300,000 and 500,000 buys on average while producing massive ratings in his premium cable outings.

- He will be at least a Top 5-10 pound-for-pound ranked fighter.

- Though this is more fluid and unpredictable, I suspect he will have beaten Lucas Matthyse, Marcos Maidana, John Molina, Robert Guerrero and/or Amir Khan, or perhaps some other guys who may emerge.

That looks pretty good to me. And oh yeah, I'm willing to take bets on my predictions, with the exception of the ones with the names since boxing is volatile and things can change quickly.

Radam G says:

Lol he sure doesn't!

But here's the difference between my assessment of Adrien Broner and the assessment of many others: I have no like nor any dislike for Broner. Zero. I'm completely indifferent.

With all due respect to Dino's opinion, he has a bias qua his position. In addition to that, he doesn't like him. That feeling is shared by many. I get that. Considering that, it is nearly impossible to evaluate him objectively.

When he was being lauded on HBO, I failed to see what the hoopla was about. Then I sat down and looked at him closely. Fights, training habits, testimonies. As many of you may sense, I'm big on mental intangibles. I looked at that too.

Then I spoke to people in and around his camp, people that had gone through his camp, prospects, current world champions and super trainers. Guys with no dog in the race. Emmanuel Stweard. Tim Bradley. Andre Ward. Virgil Hunter. Naazim Richardson. Albert Bell.

They all said the same thing. With conviction. I can't just disregard that.

That whole "give belts to everyone" is sort of silly. Honestly. OK, the 130 belt means nothing to me. It was a vacant belt against a jabroni, and the fringe WBO trinket at that. Most guys are steered towards a title. Like Lomachenko.

(That said, to be fair, this was the very same Dollar Tree plastic belt Oscar DLH was given beating who could be the worst champion in history in Jimmi Bredahl. Not to mention the organization in which HOF'er DLH won half of his divisional titles, if I'm not mistaken. And the WBO has more legitimacy now than it did then, though I have no idea why. And I've seen far bigger gift-wrapped titles than the fringe belt awarded to Broner. Chavez Jr.? Erik Morales? )

What was he doing at 135 then? Smashing every guy he fought, won the title in his first outing there while the rest of the division ran from him while he was trying to unify, even though he was the biggest fight for any other titleholder.

Lastly, he jumped two weight classes and dethroned Paulie Malignaggi. Regardless of what anyone thinks of Paulie, he went overseas and a TOOK that belt from the undefeated titlist. Even if people disregard his legitimacy as champion, I don't see any other lightweight jumping up and challenging Malignaggi to that extent -- especially not a fabrication.

I mean, come on now. Let's be serious.

And people say Marquez beats him. I LOVE Marquez. I honestly think he's my favorite fighter; he's up there for sure. But let's he serious here. Bradley doing his worst Mayweather impression beat him. Broner can impersonate Mayweather better than Bradley can.

This is just speculation however; we don't know any of this. Unlike everything else I said, which we DO know.

Now on to Broner the man. Do I find the hubris annoying? Sometimes.

I also found it annoying that he was so quick to self-laud and compare his skill set on Twitter to Floyd's "me and big bro make it look so a easy that's why people hate" or "me and big bro got that s*** you can't teach."

But I won't let a public persona or certain immature behavioral traits cloud my evaluation of his grit, work ethic (despite what many of you think, he's one of the hardest workers in the game; that comes straight from those same people), skill, determination, accomplishments and so forth.

Do I think he's as good as he says? Absolutely not. Do I think he's as bad as people make him out to be now? Hell no.

Skibbz, to address your question from yesterday:

- In two years, he will have joined an upper echelon of a select few fighters in history -- less than 15 (!) -- to have won titles in four different weight divisions, while looking towards challenging for a fifth.

- He will be a PPV fighter, drawing between 300,000 and 500,000 buys on average while producing massive ratings in his premium cable outings.

- He will be at least a Top 5-10 pound-for-pound ranked fighter.

- Though this is more fluid and unpredictable, I suspect he will have beaten Lucas Matthyse, Marcos Maidana, John Molina, Robert Guerrero and/or Amir Khan, or perhaps some other guys who may emerge.

That looks pretty good to me. And oh yeah, I'm willing to take bets on my predictions, with the exception of the ones with the names since boxing is volatile and things can change quickly.


Wow! The Shadow, unless you're being a bit hyperboIic, I may have to ride outta hiding in plain sight and take you on your bets. The rode will not be good for AB. He is a dime a dozen flash-in-the-pants imitator.

The road won't be just rocky for him, but full of stink -- I mean sink -- holes. Hehe! Holla!

The Shadow says:

Wow! The Shadow, unless you're being a bit hyperboIic, I may have to ride outta hiding in plain sight and take you on your bets. The rode will not be good for AB. He is a dime a dozen flash-in-the-pants imitator.

The road won't be just rocky for him, but full of stink -- I mean sink -- holes. Hehe! Holla!


Not hyperbolic at all. I was quite conservative in my projections, actually. Here's the thing:

1) Ring already ranked him something like 5 or 6. So he's accomplished that already, whether people thought that ranking as legit or not.

2) He will likely fight for a vacant 140 title this year. And he will win. That's four right there. He's already got three. So that won't be too hard.

3) His drawing power is beyond dispute. It really is. He will continue to draw big numbers. And all he has to do is draw 300k for my predictions to come true and pull the premium numbers he's been pulling.

In other words, for him to do what I predicted, he just has to stagnate.

I say let's do it! $100? $250? $500?

thegreyman says:

Lol he sure doesn't!

But here's the difference between my assessment of Adrien Broner and the assessment of many others: I have no like nor any dislike for Broner. Zero. I'm completely indifferent.

With all due respect to Dino's opinion, he has a bias qua his position. In addition to that, he doesn't like him. That feeling is shared by many. I get that. Considering that, it is nearly impossible to evaluate him objectively.

When he was being lauded on HBO, I failed to see what the hoopla was about. Then I sat down and looked at him closely. Fights, training habits, testimonies. As many of you may sense, I'm big on mental intangibles. I looked at that too.

Then I spoke to people in and around his camp, people that had gone through his camp, prospects, current world champions and super trainers. Guys with no dog in the race. Emmanuel Stweard. Tim Bradley. Andre Ward. Virgil Hunter. Naazim Richardson. Albert Bell.

They all said the same thing. With conviction. I can't just disregard that.

That whole "give belts to everyone" is sort of silly. Honestly. OK, the 130 belt means nothing to me. It was a vacant belt against a jabroni, and the fringe WBO trinket at that. Most guys are steered towards a title. Like Lomachenko.

(That said, to be fair, this was the very same Dollar Tree plastic belt Oscar DLH was given beating who could be the worst champion in history in Jimmi Bredahl. Not to mention the organization in which HOF'er DLH won half of his divisional titles, if I'm not mistaken. And the WBO has more legitimacy now than it did then, though I have no idea why. And I've seen far bigger gift-wrapped titles than the fringe belt awarded to Broner. Chavez Jr.? Erik Morales? )

What was he doing at 135 then? Smashing every guy he fought, won the title in his first outing there while the rest of the division ran from him while he was trying to unify, even though he was the biggest fight for any other titleholder.

Lastly, he jumped two weight classes and dethroned Paulie Malignaggi. Regardless of what anyone thinks of Paulie, he went overseas and a TOOK that belt from the undefeated titlist. Even if people disregard his legitimacy as champion, I don't see any other lightweight jumping up and challenging Malignaggi to that extent -- especially not a fabrication.

I mean, come on now. Let's be serious.

And people say Marquez beats him. I LOVE Marquez. I honestly think he's my favorite fighter; he's up there for sure. But let's he serious here. Bradley doing his worst Mayweather impression beat him. Broner can impersonate Mayweather better than Bradley can.

This is just speculation however; we don't know any of this. Unlike everything else I said, which we DO know.

Now on to Broner the man. Do I find the hubris annoying? Sometimes.

I also found it annoying that he was so quick to self-laud and compare his skill set on Twitter to Floyd's "me and big bro make it look so a easy that's why people hate" or "me and big bro got that s*** you can't teach."

But I won't let a public persona or certain immature behavioral traits cloud my evaluation of his grit, work ethic (despite what many of you think, he's one of the hardest workers in the game; that comes straight from those same people), skill, determination, accomplishments and so forth.

Do I think he's as good as he says? Absolutely not. Do I think he's as bad as people make him out to be now? Hell no.

Skibbz, to address your question from yesterday:

- In two years, he will have joined an upper echelon of a select few fighters in history -- less than 15 (!) -- to have won titles in four different weight divisions, while looking towards challenging for a fifth.

- He will be a PPV fighter, drawing between 300,000 and 500,000 buys on average while producing massive ratings in his premium cable outings.

- He will be at least a Top 5-10 pound-for-pound ranked fighter.

- Though this is more fluid and unpredictable, I suspect he will have beaten Lucas Matthyse, Marcos Maidana, John Molina, Robert Guerrero and/or Amir Khan, or perhaps some other guys who may emerge.

That looks pretty good to me. And oh yeah, I'm willing to take bets on my predictions, with the exception of the ones with the names since boxing is volatile and things can change quickly.


I hate to say it Shadow, but you seem to have blinded yourself with a whole lot of jive. I'll do my best to set things straight.

First off Broner does not beat Marquez. Even Marquez with one arm would beat Broner. Broner's too light, hasn't got the skill, power or experience to deal with Marquez. I guarantee you 95% of the boxing media and scribes will agree with me on this one, if not 100. I've said it before, and its not a point that I think requires any further discussion.

Second, and I've said this before, Broner is not one of the hardest workers in the game. That's bordering on disrespectful to hard working fighters to say that. Broner eats junk food on the regular, drinks alcohol between camps, regularly, doesn't get the prescribed amounts of rest, balloons between fights (big time- the only AB he is then is 'All Belly). He doesn't even run- he uses a treadmill. And to top it all off, he seems to take pride in these things: promoting film of himself downing bubbly by the bottle, and eating pizza on his bed at night. That doesn't sound to me like a hard worker, and I could name you a couple of British light welters who work a damn site harder. There's amateurs I know that can do better than that.


Now, to address your predictions- again, you're way off.

We're now in the realm of prediction, and its fine if you disagree with me, but you've got to base predictions on facts, and not allow people to pull the wool over your eyes.

Broner is unlikely to win a title at 147. He doesn't belong at that weight, and he knows it. This is a proven fact- he tried to move up and failed miserably, and he didn't exactly fight an A list guy. For him to successfully move up to 147, earn himself a title shot, challenge for it and take it, all in two years, is beyond hopeful: it's plain fanciful. And you think he'll be challenging for a 5th?! I presume you mean light middleweight?

The only way I can see him challenging for more weights in the immediate future is if it's a contest of who can pile on the most pounds of fat- then I can see him challenging for heavyweight!

The only way Broner will make the top 10 P4P, let alone top 5, is if he's writing the rankings himself. I'd like to see what you're basing that prediction off, because he doesn't even look close at the moment. To make such an improvement in the space of 24 months maximum is ludicrous. He wont even be close.

He maybe has a chance at giving one or two of the guys you mentioned a good fight, but it's unlikely he'd beat them. Matthyse would KO him flat, Maidana already proved too much, and Khan would box his ears off for 12. Guerrero might be a better option, though he's an unknown quantity until Saturday night.

I'd be willing to take a significant bet on any of those. Consider my hand shaken.




And as for Broner's potential performance against the 'light welterweight bums' as you put Britain's 140 pounders in another post- singling out Curtis Woodhouse for particularly harsh treatment- let me fill you in on a couple of facts. Curtis Woodhouse was a pro footballer until not so long ago, and is doing very well in the pro boxing game considering this. Broner, in his last fight, failed to dispatch one Carlos Molina, ranked at 154 globally at light welterweight. 154. And Broner- the soon to be top 5 pound for pound, the guy who will soon have beaten a host of top 140 and 147, the guy who will be one of the best PPV draws around-couldn't deal with him.

Couldn't even knock him down.

154th

Where is Curtis Woodhouse ranked, I hear you ask.

Curtis Woodhouse is ranked number 29.

So Shadow, what makes you so sure?

dino da vinci says:

Say what you want, Oscar fought everybody. Everybody! Let's see how many wins your guy compiles against the likes of fighters the caliber of Sweet Pea, Macho, JC Superstar, Tito, etc.

Doesn't matter in this day and age if he wins nine titles. He's not going to be a top five guy ever. He's already showing fraying around the edges, and I believe he was hoping they pulled the plug in the fight where he was rolling around on the floor. I have a history of looking for bells and whistles for signs of when a guy can be made to quit. Your guy looks like a slot machine right before it pays off.

Don't ever confuse my dislike for a fighter having any impact on my opinion or observation. Never cared for Sugar Ray Leonard. He never struck me as being remotely genuine. That said, if someone said he was the best ever I'd have no quarrel with the comment. As they both fought at welterweight, if they were matched in Imaginaryland, who'd win? Personally, I'd bet on Broner. To live.

Tommy Hearns was another 47 pounder. Can you wrap your imagination around the destruction Hearns would have wrought? You can't and you know why? Because even in the deepest recesses of make believe time, Broner's not climbing through the ropes to tangle with Hearns, who would run him out of the building. And Leonard was the first to hand Tommy a defeat.

At this point your guy's questionable wins column is exceeding his great opponent column. Unless they have changed the qualifications of being a top five pound for pounder, this is a non issue.

That said, we still love you.

The Shadow says:

I hate to say it Shadow, but you seem to have blinded yourself with a whole lot of jive. I'll do my best to set things straight.

First off Broner does not beat Marquez. Even Marquez with one arm would beat Broner. Broner's too light, hasn't got the skill, power or experience to deal with Marquez. I guarantee you 95% of the boxing media and scribes will agree with me on this one, if not 100. I've said it before, and its not a point that I think requires any further discussion.

Second, and I've said this before, Broner is not one of the hardest workers in the game. That's bordering on disrespectful to hard working fighters to say that. Broner eats junk food on the regular, drinks alcohol between camps, regularly, doesn't get the prescribed amounts of rest, balloons between fights (big time- the only AB he is then is 'All Belly'). He doesn't even run- he uses a treadmill. And to top it all off, he seems to take pride in these things: promoting film of himself downing bubbly by the bottle, and eating pizza on his bed at night. That doesn't sound to me like a hard worker, and I could name you a couple of British light welters who work a damn site harder. There's amateurs I know that can do better than that.


Now, to address your predictions- again, you're way off.

Since we're in the realm of prediction, its fine if you disagree with me, but you've got to base predictions on facts, and not allow people to pull the wool over your eyes.

Broner is unlikely to win a title at 147. He doesn't belong at that weight, and he knows it. This is a proven fact- he tried to move up and failed miserably, and he didn't exactly fight an A list guy. For him to successfully move up to 147, earn himself a title shot, challenge for it and take it, all in two years, is beyond hopeful: it's plain fanciful. And you think he'll be challenging for a 5th?! I presume you mean light middleweight?

The only way I can see him challenging for more weights in the immediate future is if it's a contest of who can pile on the most pounds of fat- then I can see him challenging for heavyweight!

The only way Broner will make the top 10 P4P, let alone top 5, is if he's writing the rankings himself. I'd like to see what you're basing that prediction off, because he doesn't even look close at the moment. To make such an improvement in the space of 24 months maximum is ludicrous. He wont even be close.

He maybe has a chance at giving one or two of the guys you mentioned a good fight, but it's unlikely he'd beat them. Matthyse would KO him flat, Maidana already proved too much, and Khan would box his ears off for 12. Guerrero might be a better option, though he's an unknown quantity until Saturday night.

I'd be willing to take a significant bet on any of those. Consider my hand shaken.




And as for Broner's potential performance against the 'light welterweight bums' as you put Britain's 140 pounders in another post- singling out Curtis Woodhouse for particularly harsh treatment- let me fill you in on a couple of facts. Curtis Woodhouse was a pro footballer until not so long ago, and is doing very well in the pro boxing game considering this. Broner, in his last fight, failed to dispatch one Carlos Molina, ranked at 154 globally at light welterweight. 154. And Broner- the soon to be top 5 pound for pound, the guy who will soon have beaten a host of top 140 and 147, the guy who will be one of the best PPV draws around-couldn't deal with him.

Couldn't even knock him down.

154th

Where is Curtis Woodhouse ranked, I hear you ask.

Curtis Woodhouse is ranked number 29, and you thin Broner will walk straight through him?

So Shadow, what makes you so sure?


He is an incredibly hard worker. That is a fact. You're basing your opinion off what you see publicly. So I do understand what you're saying and where you're coming from.

But please be mindful of this: I state what I state based on the first-hand testimonies (not info designed for public consumption) of world class fighters and trainers -- remember, I have been a reporter doing interviews, building a source network of A-list athletes since 2000 -- who have no dollars invested in him. Plus I've seen it with my own two eyes.

And my eyes are still pretty darn good for an old man.

What surprises me is you seem to blatantly disregard those testimonies, which tells me you're not having an open mind as it pertains to him. You seem to dislike him, which is cool, but it also strips you completely of any rational objectivity based on some of the stuff you say.

(Re: AB vs. JMM, that other stuff is speculation; we don't know till it happens so I'm not going to entertain that too much. That's my opinion, you have yours. And that's cool.)

And those guys from the UK are so pathetic, competitively, in the grand scheme of things they aren't even worth mentioning. I know exactly where they're ranked, I know exactly what their pedigree is and I know exactly what they can do.

Gavin Rees likely smokes them all; every single one of them. You remember Rees, right? One of the best UK light welterweights in recent memory? (Just give me 1st place for this paragraph alone.)

Rees held a legitimate world title at that class. Broner ANNIHILATED him. Smoked him. Bitch slapped him all up and down that ring and sent him back to the UK ruined. http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Adrien_Broner_vs._Gavin_Rees

*Drops mic.*

....

*Picks it back up.*

To this day, Rees would wreck Woodhouse.

(For the record, I love Woodhouse for that troll hunt! Super cool dude. But personal admiration doesn't equate to professional ability. He's a nice story. World level? Not so much.)

OK, so he didn't stop Molina. NO FIGHTER at the world class level (Dgontay Wilder is not competing at world championship level yet) has a 100% KO level. Vitali Klitschko didn't stop Shannon Briggs. Couldn't even knock him down. So all that means nothing. He won by wide UD.

(I can't believe I'm even having this conversation. If one is so biased to think a domestic level club fighter from the UK beats Adrien Broner, I'm genuinely concerned I'm disqualifying myself from placing for the same reason. In which case, Dino, you need to look closer because the integrity of the competition is severely jeopardized. Once I get that belt I will have earned it fair and square. And I will wear it all over Vegas like I'm Charlie Z.)

All this is just banter, however. We don't really know what happens in the future. He could break a leg tomorrow. Woodhouse could discover A-side Meth. So let's just take the bet and we will revisit the conversation in two years.

As for said bet, he doesn't have to improve much; he doesn't even have to improve at all! All he has to do is stagnate to meet those projections.

As I mentioned, the facts tell us this:

- Just a few months ago, he was ranked in the P4P list by Sports Illustrated and Ring Magazine. Look it up. So he's already accomplished this. No ludicrous improvement necessary.

- Four divisions? Easy work. Yet this is probably the most risky of my predictions. Here's what we do know: He became a three-division titlist at 23 last year. He has a title shot long up for him at 140 this year. Little improvement necessary.

- Drawing prediction? Again, no improvement necessary. [url]http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/boxing-experts-blog/adrien-broner-hits-grand-slam-showtime-two-most-225714943.html

This is the hardest evidence of all. They will put him on PPV very, very soon. So it's just a matter of time. Again, look it up. He's arguably the biggest draw that has yet to headline PPV.

I don't talk out my pretty a$$ bro. Remember that.

Bet's on.

*Drops mic.*

The Shadow says:

[QUOTE=dino da vinci;56082]Say what you want, Oscar fought everybody. Everybody! Let's see how many wins your guy compiles against the likes of fighters the caliber of Sweet Pea, Macho, JC Superstar, Tito, etc.

Doesn't matter in this day and age if he wins nine titles. He's not going to be a top five guy ever. He's already showing fraying around the edges, and I believe he was hoping they pulled the plug in the fight where he was rolling around on the floor. I have a history of looking for bells and whistles for signs of when a guy can be made to quit. Your guy looks like a slot machine right before it pays off.

Don't ever confuse my dislike for a fighter having any impact on my opinion or observation. Never cared for Sugar Ray Leonard. He never struck me as being remotely genuine. That said, if someone said he was the best ever I'd have no quarrel with the comment. As they both fought at welterweight, if they were matched in Imaginaryland, who'd win? Personally, I'd bet on Broner. To live.

Tommy Hearns was another 47 pounder. Can you wrap your imagination around the destruction Hearns would have wrought? You can't and you know why? Because even in the deepest recesses of make believe time, Broner's not climbing through the ropes to tangle with Hearns, who would run him out of the building. And Leonard was the first to hand Tommy a defeat.

At this point your guy's questionable wins column is exceeding his great opponent column. Unless they have changed the qualifications of being a top five pound for pounder, this is a non issue.

That said, we still love you.[/QUOTE]

I know. I love you too Dino.

But like I've said over and over, he's not my guy. I'm completely and utterly indifferent towards him.

What I'm NOT indifferent to is such nonsense that a former pro soccer player -- whose personal zenith was winning a national championship via SD -- beats him. That's silly and you know it.

I bet you have 126-pound guys in your stable with less than 10 fights that would blast that boy so bad he'll go try out for Ipswich or Millwall or take up managing full-time so fast he'll beat his own personal best.

(Again, I have so much respect for Woodhouse. He's one of the guys I look up to in my own training. But I'm not an idiot or seduced by his incredible achievement to the point where he beats that buffoon Broner.)

And yes, Oscar fought everyone. But keep in mind, Broner just turned 24, he smashed the best 135 with ease, the lightweights were sprinting from him and he just moved up from that division ONE YEAR AGO.

Also, he was almost considered Top 5 last year! (Though, for the sake of clarity and fairness, I don't respect The Ring like I once did. That said, their opinion still is recognized in the world of boxing.)

Again, I reiterate: he's 24. He will have time to face real opponents. Andre Ward at 23 was fighting six-rounders, only three fights removed from nearly getting stopped Darnell Boone for crying out loud. So let's see how this plays out.

Now, if his record is still filled with those pizzeria boys three years from now, five years from now, once his career is over? Then OK, then we can compare him to Oscar who has the body of work of a long illustrious career's body of work to draw from.

Fact is Broner's reached this feat faster than anyone in eye cent history, if not ever. Compare his record with any other top fighter today at a similar age. I bet his resume holds up just fine.

thegreyman says:

I'm not entirely sure of what you're saying Shadow- I was just pointing out that Broner couldn't deal with a guy ranked at 154th globally. You said Broner would steam roll a guy ranked at 29th, just because he's British. Again, you haven't explained your reasoning behind this. It seems illogical to me to be so certain of such a thing.

That's not bias, that's rational thinking, and critical judgement of two boxers' respective abilities. I'm merely using Curtis Woodhouse as an example because you happened to single him out and insult him.

You need to take a long hard look at Broner fight- have a look at his boxing skills, because that's all that matters at the end of the day. He can be ranked #1 by WBC, WBA and IBF for all I care, but if he hasn't got the skills, he hasn't got the skills.

If I want to judge a fighter, I look at their ability, I don't base my opinions upon what others tell me about them, or upon my own opinions of their personality. Broner still drinks, Broner still eats crap, Broner still balloons between fights. Whether you like it or not, those are the facts of the situation.

And no Shadow, disagreeing with me wont affect my judgement of your posts- I had hoped we were a little more mature than that on these forums.

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