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Hands of Stone...And So Much More: Appreciating Roberto Duran

BY Lee Wylie ON May 22, 2014
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Duran-Palomino

The nickname "Hands of Stone" is one of the better and more delightfully illustrative in the history of the sweet science, but frankly, it is also a bit reductive for my liking, as it too neatly synopsizes what made Roberto Duran special.

Sure, the legend from Panama had savage pop in both hands. But his prowess as a ring technician, as a pugilist-specialist, probably isn't discussed enough by fight-game analysts.

Check out this examination of a superior Duran outing, that being his 1979 welterweight division tussle against A-grade hitter Carlos Palomino. Hopefully, you'll better understand the technical wizardry which is sometimes lost in translation when we refer to "Hand of Stone."

Duran's ability to hold a commanding edge at close quarters is something a fighter of any era can learn from, and a boxing fan in any era can marvel at.

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Comment on this article

The_King_AJ says:

Arguably the greatest at employing feints that we have on film. Integrated offense and defense seamlessly, and probably the greatest of all time in that regard. Tremendous defense, and showed it whilst moving forward, backwards, past his best, against naturally larger fighters, etc. Could throw every single punch in the book with devastating power and accuracy, etc.

Possibly the greatest lightweight of all time, who went and moved up a division and took on a prime Sugar Ray Leonard, a top 20 ATG, probably top three welterweight of all time in the center of his amazing run through the welterweight division, and clearly beat him using his skill and physical attributes. Years past his best, pudgy, and takes on a much larger fighter capable of flattening an ATG himself, and beats him.

How many people can say they earned arguably the best victory in the history of boxing? Roberto Duran can.

I can't see the video though.

Brad says:

Duran was an artist. The best I ever saw.

deepwater2 says:

Duran is a p4p great. A killer at lightweight. He savaged Buchanan. He showed guts by taking on Dejesus again and again and knocking him out at the end of the fight. His move to middleweight was impressive. He lost a few but so what. He fought the best. Beating the blade Barkley was the capstone to an all time p4p career. It would be if Floyd went up to 168 next year and beat Ward. Never happen. Replace maidana with Duran in the ring and there is no doubt Duran would have won.

deepwater2 says:

Duran is a p4p great. A killer at lightweight. He savaged Buchanan. He showed guts by taking on Dejesus again and again and knocking him out at the end of the fight. His move to middleweight was impressive. He lost a few but so what. He fought the best. Beating the blade Barkley was the capstone to an all time p4p career. It would be if Floyd went up to 168 next year and beat Ward. Never happen. Replace maidana with Duran in the ring and there is no doubt Duran would have won.

amayseng says:

Absolute poetry in motion.

teaser says:

In the ring he wanted to hurt you , he knew how to hurt you and if you were strong and capable that only meant you were gonna be hurt more …did you ever see a fighter who so much loved to fight ? …Duran …sweet and savage

Radam G says:

I'm all about breaking up invincibility myths. Certain fighters just refuse to fight certain fighters. And the powers that be keep it on the down low, because they could not or would not make that show. And they hope that the know nothings don't ever know.

Some tidbits of boxing ducking and avoidance are more secured than the gold at Fort Knox.

Aaron "Hawk Time" Pryor was not only avoided by Sugar Ray Leonard because of their wars in sparring, the same happened to Hawk Time with "Hands of Stone" because of gym encounters. And that is just the way game flows.

The late, greats Jerry Quarry and "Smokin'" Joe Frazier avoided the late, great Sonny "Night Train" Liston for many reasons.

Money May avoided the late, great Vernon "The Viper" Forrest and Tony "The Tijuana Tornado" Margarito.

And he will avoid fighting Chino again in September, and Amir Khan and Da Manny next year. Holla!

amayseng says:

I'm all about breaking up invincibility myths. Certain fighters just refuse to fight certain fighters. And the powers that be keep it on the down low, because they could not or would not make that show. And they hope that the know nothings don't ever know.

Some tidbits of boxing ducking and avoidance are more secured than the gold at Fort Knox.

Aaron "Hawk Time" Pryor was not only avoided by Sugar Ray Leonard because of their wars in sparring, the same happened to Hawk Time with "Hands of Stone" because of gym encounters. And that is just the way game flows.

The late, greats Jerry Quarry and "Smokin'" Joe Frazier avoided the late, great Sonny "Night Train" Liston for many reasons.

Money May avoided the late, great Vernon "The Viper" Forrest and Tony "The Tijuana Tornado" Margarito.

And he will avoid fighting Chino again in September, and Amir Khan and Da Manny next year. Holla!


I read on Boxrec Pryor turned down a bout with Duran in 1981.

Radam G says:

I read on Boxrec Pryor turned down a bout with Duran in 1981.


Reread what boxrec noted. The bout was delayed because of management problems and money. But when those problems were resolved, "Hands of Stones" had his alibi of "too late now" to dance.

Certain fighters make other ones nervous. After HoS couldn't handle Hawk Time in sparring, HoS knew that it would be difficult to deal with HT under the bright lights. SRR knew the same.

As I've said a tons of times all fighters duck. And their are optical illusions in every of facet of the hurt bitnezz. Holla!

amayseng says:

Reread what boxrec noted. The bout was delayed because of management problems and money. But when those problems were resolved, "Hands of Stones" had his alibi of "too late now" to dance.

Certain fighters make other ones nervous. After HoS couldn't handle Hawk Time in sparring, HoS knew that he couldn't HT under the bright lights. SRR knew the same.

As I've said a tons of times all fighters duck. And their are optical illusions in every of facet of the hurt bitnezz. Holla!


What a great era of boxing.

Seemed Hawks personal choices were his downfall

vacating belts and drug abuse.. Sad

Radam G says:

What a great era of boxing.

Seemed Hawks personal choices were his downfall

vacating belts and drug abuse.. Sad


You hit it! Hawk Time, as many coulda, woulda, shoulda been super-great pugs, made bad choices. He couldn't fight "Bump City" Bumpus for a million-dollar purse because he was so tore up from da flo' up on "Rock" cocaine and dat new "$h¡±" -- known as "Crack" -- outta Oakland, Cali.

Drugs had HT so messed up that he would be standing on the corner in Cincinnati giving out hundred-dollar bills to strangers.

Not to be telling his business, but his mother had to temporarily have the authorities to intervene when he -- super high on drugs -- caused a traffic problems giving out more than 50,000 macaroons on a particular day.

People were jumping out of their cars, and leaving them in middle of the street, as HT would throw those hundred-dollar bills up in the air. Holla!

Brad says:

One of the more annoying myths I hear on the internet these days is that Sugar Ray and Roberto Duran "avoided" a fight with Aaron Pryor. It's total nonsense. I'm 50 and remember those days well. There was never serious talk of Pryor-Leonard or Pryor-Duran. The reason is simple. Pryor never fought at welterweight when these guys did. As a matter of fact, when Duran fought Leonard in Montreal in a fight the entire world wanted to see, Pryor wasn't even the "junior" welterweight champ. Cervantes was. In August of 1980, on the very day Pryor won the "junior" weltweight title from Cervantes, Tommy Hearns stole the headlines from him by crushing Pipino Cuevas. So is the suggestion that Leonard avoided the newly crowned junior weltweight champ who stood 5'6" to take on the 6'1" Tommy Hearns? Please. Hell before 1982, few in the boxing world thought Pryor could even beat Alexis Arguello let alone the big boys at welterweight. Right after Pryor beat Arguello, Duran went after one of the greatest middleweights of all-time in Marvin Hagler. Was this to avoid the junior welterweight champ Pryor? Please.....bottom line, if Pryor really wanted to fight the big boys, he would have done what Duran did-move up to their division and fight the big boys. Great ships seek deep water. Duran and Leonard (Duran in particular) were always seeking deeper water...Pryor not so much.

Brad says:

One of the more annoying myths I hear on the internet these days is that Sugar Ray and Roberto Duran "avoided" a fight with Aaron Pryor. It's total nonsense. I'm 50 and remember those days well. There was never serious talk of Pryor-Leonard or Pryor-Duran. The reason is simple. Pryor never fought at welterweight when these guys did. As a matter of fact, when Duran fought Leonard in Montreal in a fight the entire world wanted to see, Pryor wasn't even the "junior" welterweight champ. Cervantes was. In August of 1980, on the very day Pryor won the "junior" weltweight title from Cervantes, Tommy Hearns stole the headlines from him by crushing Pipino Cuevas. So is the suggestion that Leonard avoided the newly crowned junior weltweight champ who stood 5'6" to take on the 6'1" Tommy Hearns? Please. Hell before 1982, few in the boxing world thought Pryor could even beat Alexis Arguello let alone the big boys at welterweight. Right after Pryor beat Arguello, Duran went after one of the greatest middleweights of all-time in Marvin Hagler. Was this to avoid the junior welterweight champ Pryor? Please.....bottom line, if Pryor really wanted to fight the big boys, he would have done what Duran did-move up to their division and fight the big boys. Great ships seek deep water. Duran and Leonard (Duran in particular) were always seeking deeper water...Pryor not so much.

amayseng says:

One of the more annoying myths I hear on the internet these days is that Sugar Ray and Roberto Duran "avoided" a fight with Aaron Pryor. It's total nonsense. I'm 50 and remember those days well. There was never serious talk of Pryor-Leonard or Pryor-Duran. The reason is simple. Pryor never fought at welterweight when these guys did. As a matter of fact, when Duran fought Leonard in Montreal in a fight the entire world wanted to see, Pryor wasn't even the "junior" welterweight champ. Cervantes was. In August of 1980, on the very day Pryor won the "junior" weltweight title from Cervantes, Tommy Hearns stole the headlines from him by crushing Pipino Cuevas. So is the suggestion that Leonard avoided the newly crowned junior weltweight champ who stood 5'6" to take on the 6'1" Tommy Hearns? Please. Hell before 1982, few in the boxing world thought Pryor could even beat Alexis Arguello let alone the big boys at welterweight. Right after Pryor beat Arguello, Duran went after one of the greatest middleweights of all-time in Marvin Hagler. Was this to avoid the junior welterweight champ Pryor? Please.....bottom line, if Pryor really wanted to fight the big boys, he would have done what Duran did-move up to their division and fight the big boys. Great ships seek deep water. Duran and Leonard (Duran in particular) were always seeking deeper water...Pryor not so much.


Thanks for the perspective Brad, I am 35 so I obviously have no means to know how things went back then.

Pryor was a great fighter but I don't see him being superior or special like SRL or Duran. It is hard for me

to accept those guys ducked him, especially Duran. Maybe what Radam is getting at is that for those guys

Pryor was a high risk low reward fight at those particular times.

Brad says:

I'm not sure a guy as easy to hit as Pryor was, who stood 5'6" could be considered "high risk" for guys like Duran or Leonard. He was certainly "little reward." Everyone back then wanted to see Duran and Leonard fight bigger buys, not smaller guys. Hagler was the one people wanted to see these great welterweights fight back then, not Pryor. It was HBO's Legendary Nights episode of Pryor-Arguello that started the revisionist history that Leonard was ducking Pryor. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Fans got the fights they wanted back then. After Leonard beat Duran, people wanted Leonard Hearns. They got it, the next year. When Leonard retired and Duran beat Davey Moore people wanted Duran-Hagler. They got it months later. After Duran lost to Hagler, they wanted to see him fight Hearns, they got iy. After Hearns beat Duran they wanted to see him fight Hagler, they got it. After that they wanted Leonard to come out and fight Hagler, they got it.....at no point was little Aaron Pryor ever in the mix.

Skibbz says:

Duran is one of my all time favourite fighters. He has to be in my opinion one of the most intelligent fighters in the history of boxing. He would decimate champs who call themselves the best ever, he would break in anyone who was willing to step up to the plate and he enjoyed every fast paced second of it.

@Brad Pryor was high risk because SRL knew what he brought to the table, and it certainly wasn't money. I'm not saying he ducked him but the fact it was little reward for a fair about of risk... It just wasn't a fight he would consider too strongly. Sure if the money was right it would have happened and we would have had a great fight on our hands with a lot of needle.

Nonetheless they both had pretty great careers, one guy was always fighting against the tide whilst the other rode it for all it was worth. Two great champions who cast the mold for future up and comers.

teaser says:

Pryor beat a young (16 or 17yrs old) hearns in the amateurs ...can't see him having the experiance in 1979 or 80 to defeat the Duran that fought Palimino or Leonard ...after that he wasn't the same fighter physically ...too much weight

Radam G says:

Thanks for the perspective Brad, I am 35 so I obviously have no means to know how things went back then.

Pryor was a great fighter but I don't see him being superior or special like SRL or Duran. It is hard for me

to accept those guys ducked him, especially Duran. Maybe what Radam is getting at is that for those guys

Pryor was a high risk low reward fight at those particular times.


Hey, 50-year-old Brad, you need to check your facts. Okay! You were around doing that time, but you were not in the loop to know the poop. So you didn't have the scoop. OMG! Refer to boxrec and Fightfax, and see for yourself that contracts were drawn up. There is no need for to try to become age rank. Apparently you are not from a boxing family.

I personally know Duran, Leonard and Pryor. [Their sons and I were rug rats together.] And on the record -- out of the public eye -- fighters usually will tell the truth. The whole TRUTH. They know that it was always that certain fighter that whup you in sparring. And situations came about where you never fought him under the light.

Amir Khan has beat up Da Manny in sparring sessions. I know because I was there. The late, very good Greg Page beat "Iron" Mike Tyson in sparring sessions. "Sweet Pea" put it on the kate, great Hector "Macho Time" Camacho in sparring session. I know because I was there. I know because I was there. The sun rose and set in 1900. I know because my Tio Mamoy was there.

Great fighters are human being that get their arses dusted in sparring sessions sometimes.

No need to show off in cyberspace and scrap about it. You either know, or you don't, so just rap about it. Holla!

Radam G says:

I'm not sure a guy as easy to hit as Pryor was, who stood 5'6" could be considered "high risk" for guys like Duran or Leonard. He was certainly "little reward." Everyone back then wanted to see Duran and Leonard fight bigger buys, not smaller guys. Hagler was the one people wanted to see these great welterweights fight back then, not Pryor. It was HBO's Legendary Nights episode of Pryor-Arguello that started the revisionist history that Leonard was ducking Pryor. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Fans got the fights they wanted back then. After Leonard beat Duran, people wanted Leonard Hearns. They got it, the next year. When Leonard retired and Duran beat Davey Moore people wanted Duran-Hagler. They got it months later. After Duran lost to Hagler, they wanted to see him fight Hearns, they got iy. After Hearns beat Duran they wanted to see him fight Hagler, they got it. After that they wanted Leonard to come out and fight Hagler, they got it.....at no point was little Aaron Pryor ever in the mix.


Size doesn't matter. They all avoided Hawk Time, plain and simple. Besides don't believe this inflated size nonsense. Pryor and Duran were/are the same height. And Hagler was/is about an inch and a half taller. Leonard was/is a bit over two inches taller. Holla!

dino da vinci says:

One of the more annoying myths I hear on the internet these days is that Sugar Ray and Roberto Duran "avoided" a fight with Aaron Pryor. It's total nonsense. I'm 50 and remember those days well. There was never serious talk of Pryor-Leonard or Pryor-Duran. The reason is simple. Pryor never fought at welterweight when these guys did. As a matter of fact, when Duran fought Leonard in Montreal in a fight the entire world wanted to see, Pryor wasn't even the "junior" welterweight champ. Cervantes was. In August of 1980, on the very day Pryor won the "junior" weltweight title from Cervantes, Tommy Hearns stole the headlines from him by crushing Pipino Cuevas. So is the suggestion that Leonard avoided the newly crowned junior weltweight champ who stood 5'6" to take on the 6'1" Tommy Hearns? Please. Hell before 1982, few in the boxing world thought Pryor could even beat Alexis Arguello let alone the big boys at welterweight. Right after Pryor beat Arguello, Duran went after one of the greatest middleweights of all-time in Marvin Hagler. Was this to avoid the junior welterweight champ Pryor? Please.....bottom line, if Pryor really wanted to fight the big boys, he would have done what Duran did-move up to their division and fight the big boys. Great ships seek deep water. Duran and Leonard (Duran in particular) were always seeking deeper water...Pryor not so much.


I agree with Brad and I'm from a boxing family. (I think that comes up in a couple posts further down). First off, Pryor could make the 135 pound limit, if there were any takers. Never really seem to be. Let's be on record with this: we are discussing three short list all-time greats. As Brad points out, as one was doing all they could to secure a first world title, Duran was skipping divisions to take on the man who stopped Wilfredo Benitez. Think about that for a moment. I for one will be part of no groundswell that says any of these guys were hiding under their bed afraid of any other. Climb in a ring with a Hearns or a Hagler or Leonard or Pryor or Duran and there's not too much you're concerned about.

And as great as Pryor was, he had his hands full with Flacco. Can't imagine the above guys running for cover.

Great ships seek deep water. Wow! Don't recall ever hearing that before. Love it.

I believe most of it was timing issues.

Radam G says:

I agree with Brad and I'm from a boxing family. (I think that comes up in a couple posts further down). First off, Pryor could make the 135 pound limit, if there were any takers. Never really seem to be. Let's be on record with this: we are discussing three short list all-time greats. As Brad points out, as one was doing all they could to secure a first world title, Duran was skipping divisions to take on the man who stopped Wilfredo Benitez. Think about that for a moment. I for one will be part of no groundswell that says any of these guys were hiding under their bed afraid of any other. Climb in a ring with a Hearns or a Hagler or Leonard or Pryor or Duran and there's not too much you're concerned about.

And as great as Pryor was, he had his hands full with Flacco. Can't imagine the above guys running for cover.

Great ships seek deep water. Wow! Don't recall ever hearing that before. Love it.

I believe most of it was timing issues.


You know that it is not always the fighter that avoid another onr, but good, smart management. Good management protect their interest. Holla!

Brad says:

Pryor was 5' 6". Duran was 5' 7". Hagler was 5' 9." To say they "size doesn't matter" is silly. Of course it matters. Hagler wasn't just 3" taller than Pryor he was a rock solid 160. Not on once of fat. That's a massive advantage. Once Duran entered the welterweight, superwelter and middleweight divisions he never faced an opponent smaller than him. And he did well against great, younger bigger men. How did he do against guys his size, like Pryor? Go back and look at his pre-welterweight days. From 1968-1978 he lost one fight. He stopped every fighter he faced in championships bout over this period except Edwin Viruet who spent most of the fight running from Roberto. He'd have been licking his chops at the opportunity to fight a man smaller than him that comes at him!!!! Put it this way, if Cervates and DuJuan Johnson could put Pryor on the deck, Duran and Leonard would have him there to stay. But I respect your opinion and respect this site. You post here more than me so I don't want to insult you...we just see things different.

The Commish says:

Arguably the greatest at employing feints that we have on film. Integrated offense and defense seamlessly, and probably the greatest of all time in that regard. Tremendous defense, and showed it whilst moving forward, backwards, past his best, against naturally larger fighters, etc. Could throw every single punch in the book with devastating power and accuracy, etc.

Possibly the greatest lightweight of all time, who went and moved up a division and took on a prime Sugar Ray Leonard, a top 20 ATG, probably top three welterweight of all time in the center of his amazing run through the welterweight division, and clearly beat him using his skill and physical attributes. Years past his best, pudgy, and takes on a much larger fighter capable of flattening an ATG himself, and beats him.

How many people can say they earned arguably the best victory in the history of boxing? Roberto Duran can.

I can't see the video though.


I'm not sure, The King, if you were implying Roberto Duran was pudgy and years past his best when he foughtSugar Ray in Montreal in June 1980. Is that what you meant?

-Randy G.

Radam G says:

Pryor was 5' 6". Duran was 5' 7". Hagler was 5' 9." To say they "size doesn't matter" is silly. Of course it matters. Hagler wasn't just 3" taller than Pryor he was a rock solid 160. Not on once of fat. That's a massive advantage. Once Duran entered the welterweight, superwelter and middleweight divisions he never faced an opponent smaller than him. And he did well against great, younger bigger men. How did he do against guys his size, like Pryor? Go back and look at his pre-welterweight days. From 1968-1978 he lost one fight. He stopped every fighter he faced in championships bout over this period except Edwin Viruet who spent most of the fight running from Roberto. He'd have been licking his chops at the opportunity to fight a man smaller than him that comes at him!!!! Put it this way, if Cervates and DuJuan Johnson could put Pryor on the deck, Duran and Leonard would have him there to stay. But I respect your opinion and respect this site. You post here more than me so I don't want to insult you...we just see things different.


Wow! No offense. But now you are in a different Universe. Hagler was 5'9. It didn't matter that Hearn was 6'1. Hagler kicked that arse. Barkley was 6'2. Duran was listed as 5'7. It didn't matter, Duran KICKED dat @$$. Jack Dempsey was listed at 6,' but was actually 5'9 and some change. It didn't matter, he KICKED the hebejeebeez outta 6-foot-6 Jess Willard.

Hulkquez/Marquez is 5'6 but is listed at 5'7. It didn't matter. He KICKED 5-foot-9 "Mile High" Mike's arse. And before the dance and the after-fight interview, Marquez clearly said that size didn't and doesn't matter.

Size doesn't matter for a smaller, shorter person. He kicks the arse of a taller, bigger one 85 percent of the time. History, reality and actuality easily show that. Even the typical size of Special Forces of arch killers of the militaries of the world is 5-foot-5 to 5-foot-10 and a 40 kilograms to 70 kilograms. [Size matters to a fool and an excuse maker, not to a KING -- a KING of the ring and/or of life.]

BTW, putting fighter "on the deck" doesn't mean a darn thing or distract from one's greatness. How many times was Duran put on the deck himself by lesser fighters in matches and sparring? And tell me about Joe Louis? What about GOAT Ali? Holla at "Homicide" Hank Armstrong and Sugar Ray Robinson and Leonard.

SRR duck the whole "Black Murder Row" because they dropped and tored his arse up in sparring sessions. And this is right from the horses' mouths or at a minimum eye-witnesses, not ear-witnesses.

BTW, Duran and Pryor were trained by Panama Lewis. Pryor kicked Duran's arse every single time that they sparred. Eventually Duran quit sparring with Pryor. And that is how it is and was in something that is not alternate reality.

C'mon, you Baby Boomer boxers and trainers who were there! You know what time it is and was. And you d@mn sure do know da haps. And size has never MATTER! What you check into TSS and holla! You might even make a dolla. Hehe!

BTW, Brad, were you a fighter? Your syntax is quite a bit similar to an ex-pug that I know. Holla!

Brad says:

Radam, name one fighter that Pryor beat over 140 lbs that was worth anything? Some evidence that he could compete with the big boys. You can't because Pryor never fought the big boys. He stayed down in the 140 class when all the money and talent was at 147 and above. Sugar Ray, Roberto, Benitez, Palomino, Cuevas, Hearns, Hagler that's where the big fights were. After he vacated the lightweight division Duran skipped the 140 class altogether not because he was afraid of Cervantes of Mamby, it was just that there were deeper waters to swim in. He went where the talent and money was- the welterweight division. The fact that Pryor never even made an attempt to get in that division when it was hot, should tell all you need to know....and gym sessions? Really? Give me a break. If you decide off sparring sessions, Ali was terrible, Quincy Taylor owns Sugar Ray Leonard, and Greg Page was better than Tyson. Training sessions don't mean ****.

The Commish says:

Very true about sparring sessions, Brad. Very true.

I once watched a sparring session between Muhammad Ali and Rodney Bobick. Based on their three rounds, Rodney was the next heavyweight champion of the world.

Also, very true about Aaron Pryor not beating or even fighting welterweights. However, Pryor really was a lightweight who couldn't get a meaningful fight at 135, so he moved to 140. I realize Duran was also a lightweight, but he had a thicker frame and could handle the move to welterweight and above much better than Pryor could.

I really would love to have seen the Pryor who beat Arguello in 1982 face the Duran of the late '70's at 140 pounds. My pick would be Duran, but what an all-out war it probably would have been!

-Randy G.

The_King_AJ says:

I'm not sure, The King, if you were implying Roberto Duran was pudgy and years past his best when he foughtSugar Ray in Montreal in June 1980. Is that what you meant?

-Randy G.


Middleweight

Radam G says:

Radam, name one fighter that Pryor beat over 140 lbs that was worth anything? Some evidence that he could compete with the big boys. You can't because Pryor never fought the big boys. He stayed down in the 140 class when all the money and talent was at 147 and above. Sugar Ray, Roberto, Benitez, Palomino, Cuevas, Hearns, Hagler that's where the big fights were. After he vacated the lightweight division Duran skipped the 140 class altogether not because he was afraid of Cervantes of Mamby, it was just that there were deeper waters to swim in. He went where the talent and money was- the welterweight division. The fact that Pryor never even made an attempt to get in that division when it was hot, should tell all you need to know....and gym sessions? Really? Give me a break. If you decide off sparring sessions, Ali was terrible, Quincy Taylor owns Sugar Ray Leonard, and Greg Page was better than Tyson. Training sessions don't mean ****.


None over 140lbs would fight him. They knew what time it was. And he was a prizefighter, not a pridefighter. If the moolah would've been upped he would have kicked their arses, as he did at 140lbs when he was just a lightweight. [History is littered with prizefighters fighting above what they could fight and winning in total domination.]

And YOU are WRONG! Training [sparring] sessions mean a LOT. Or no one would ever have them. And Mayweather-type fighters would not mind cameras filming them.] And I'm not deciding anything off sparring sessions but what REAL boxers DO -- a LOOK, a measurement and a possibility. More than 60 percent of fighters that whup an arse in sparring session eventually do it in a money bout under those lights. Nice try at a con and fast BBG talk. But I've been there, saw that. And I can name tons. But I'm no show off or agitator. I'm just exchanging the actuality of the reality of da game from being a part of it -- in da loop of da poop, so I know da scoop. And don't have to jive and connive and stoop.

PLEASE don't try your Baby Boomer logic on me. Now you have double talked. "Training sessions don't mean ****," but some C+ fighters knocking down "Hawk Time" Pryor to you does. C'mon, Brad! Be EASY! I didn't fall off a pumpkin wagon and got concussed. The game is full of optical illusions. And when every generation starts getting old, it then starts claiming certain boxing of that generation to demigods and different from the rest and better than generation now. OMFG!

Roberto Duran was superbad, but he had kpytonite fighters that he could not beat, he knew it, and he [or his management] ducked them like all the greats before him. It is apart of the business. Only one percent of boxing greats never duck anybody during their era. To name a couple would be the late, greats Bob FitzSimmon, Rocky Marciano and Willie Pep and the very alive greats "Finito" Lopez and the "Italian Dragon" Calzaghe.

Wow! Hehehe! It is cybersnowing in the TSS Universe. Holla!

Brad says:

No good fighters over 140 would fight Aaron Pryor? C'mon. That's absurd. So now not only Duran and Leonard have ducked Pryor, all good fighters over 140 avoided little Aaron Pryor. And Pryor certainly wasn't kryptonite for Duran. He was the opposite. You almost couldn't design a fighter better suited for Roberto. Someone smaller than Roberto, who was often wild and like to mix it up. A fighter always coming at him. Duran would have loved that fight. But you're going to believe what you believe, no point in debating anymore.

The Shadow says:

You hit it! Hawk Time, as many coulda, woulda, shoulda been super-great pugs, made bad choices. He couldn't fight "Bump City" Bumpus for a million-dollar purse because he was so tore up from da flo' up on "Rock" cocaine and dat new "$h¡±" -- known as "Crack" -- outta Oakland, Cali.

Drugs had HT so messed up that he would be standing on the corner in Cincinnati giving out hundred-dollar bills to strangers.

Not to be telling his business, but his mother had to temporarily have the authorities to intervene when he -- super high on drugs -- caused a traffic problems giving out more than $50,000 on a particular day.

People were jumping out of their cars, and leaving them in middle of the street, as HT would throw those hundred-dollar bills up in the air. Holla!


Sooooo in other words a modern day Mayweather or Adrien Broner in a strip club?

Radam G says:

No good fighters over 140 would fight Aaron Pryor? C'mon. That's absurd. So now not only Duran and Leonard have ducked Pryor, all good fighters over 140 avoided little Aaron Pryor. And Pryor certainly wasn't kryptonite for Duran. He was the opposite. You almost couldn't design a fighter better suited for Roberto. Someone smaller than Roberto, who was often wild and like to mix it up. A fighter always coming at him. Duran would have loved that fight. But you're going to believe what you believe, no point in debating anymore.


Wow! Wow! Wee! C'mon, my BBG bro! Act like an OG! And quit tying to bullsyet me. The late, great Jimmy Ellis hopped from middleweight to heavyweight because there were no fight glory or big money at light heavyweight.

Even way back in da day, "Homicide" Hank Armstrong popped up from lightweight to welterweight because no money or glory happening at the then new division of light welterweight.

The late, great Emile Giffrin shot up from welterweight to middleweight because that is where the money was. No big payday was lurking at light middleweight.

"Fists of Iron" Duran skipped light welter his d@mn self because of no money, fame or glory at that weight until HT came. Then FoI weaseled da double fudge OUT!

Sugar Shane Mosley skipped from lightweight to welter for the money and glory. There was no darn moolah glory at light welterweight.

"Superman" Roy Jones Jr leaped from lightheavy to heavy in a single bounce because there was no money, fame or glory at cruiserweight. Da Manny crashed from flyweight to junior featherweight because the purses were bigger there than at bantamweight.

Cut the crap, Brad. Duran was about prizefighting and avoided the dangerous HT because of bigger, easier fishes to fry for bigger money at higher weights. And that is okay. It is prizefighting. But we don't need to sanitize history.

All but one percent of darn fighters DUCKED. Duran is one of 'em [$¡¢] duckers. And he did it to HT. Just as HT did it to "Bump City" Bumpus. It ain't personal, it is smart-@$$ business -- hurt bitnezz.

You BBGs have become like those before you full of inattention blindness nostalgic yesteryears-ness [sic]. And will no longer tell it like it was. And has always been. And will always be. Holla!

The Shadow says:

I'm all about breaking up invincibility myths. Certain fighters just refuse to fight certain fighters. And the powers that be keep it on the down low, because they could not or would not make that show. And they hope that the know nothings don't ever know.

Some tidbits of boxing ducking and avoidance are more secured than the gold at Fort Knox.

Aaron "Hawk Time" Pryor was not only avoided by Sugar Ray Leonard because of their wars in sparring, the same happened to Hawk Time with "Hands of Stone" because of gym encounters. And that is just the way game flows.

The late, greats Jerry Quarry and "Smokin'" Joe Frazier avoided the late, great Sonny "Night Train" Liston for many reasons.

Money May avoided the late, great Vernon "The Viper" Forrest and Tony "The Tijuana Tornado" Margarito.

And he will avoid fighting Chino again in September, and Amir Khan and Da Manny next year. Holla!


Did Frazier really avoid Liston? I'd love to hear some inside stuff! If they fought anywhere from '67-'70, I would've favored Liston by vicious, violent, destructive stoppage. Five rounds or less.

For what it is worth, RG, Mayweather has told his pops that he wants Maidana again for September. And how did he avoid Forrest? He was like three weight classes higher than Floyd when he came on to the scene.

If I'm not mistaken, Forrest beat Mosley in 2002 after Floyd had just defended his super featherweight title (fighting off the ropes, supposedly with his legs gone) against Jesus Chavez.

When Forrest got smoked by Ricardo Mayorga, Floyd had just completed his second fight at lightweight. Shortly after, Forrest took a break for a while and then went to 154 and withered away into relative mediocrity/obscurity.

It wasn't even technically possible for Mayweather to avoid him.

Margarito wasn't someone they avoided out of trepidation, it was a fight they declined so his team could take advantage of a $750,000 buy-out clause in Mayweather's contract with TR -- something Bob Arum just a few days ago said was the right move to make because he doesn't quite know how to promote African-Americans.

Arum's words.

LOL and we both know that he's fighting Khan as soon as they line that UAE moolah up! Khan needs to just stay on Skype with his models and enjoy his notoriety while he can.

Radam G says:

Sooooo in other words a modern day Mayweather or Adrien Broner in a strip club?


Nothing has changed that much under the sun. Same old, same old. Just a different eras and playas [$¡¢]. Holla!

Radam G says:

Did Frazier really avoid Liston? I'd love to hear some inside stuff! If they fought anywhere from '67-'70, I would've favored Liston by vicious, violent, destructive stoppage. Five rounds or less.

For what it is worth, RG, Mayweather has told his pops that he wants Maidana again for September. And how did he avoid Forrest? He was like three weight classes higher than Floyd when he came on to the scene.

If I'm not mistaken, Forrest beat Mosley in 2002 after Floyd had just defended his super featherweight title (fighting off the ropes, supposedly with his legs gone) against Jesus Chavez.

When Forrest got smoked by Ricardo Mayorga, Floyd had just completed his second fight at lightweight. Shortly after, Forrest took a break for a while and then went to 154 and withered away into relative mediocrity/obscurity.

It wasn't even technically possible for Mayweather to avoid him.

Margarito wasn't someone they avoided out of trepidation, it was a fight they declined so his team could take advantage of a $750,000 buy-out clause in Mayweather's contract with TR -- something Bob Arum just a few days ago said was the right move to make because he doesn't quite know how to promote African-Americans.

Arum's words.

LOL and we both know that he's fighting Khan as soon as they line that UAE moolah up! Khan needs to just stay on Skype with his models and enjoy his notoriety while he can.


JFWISW! The late, great "Viper" Forrest was bony and not phony as feces. He was one of those fighters that went up in weight because nobody would fight him at his true, natural weight of lightwelter and even welter because of his incredible punching and blistering power.

Dude was boxing pro almost 10 years before The Shadow Al Hymon [intentionally misspelled] shadowed up and he got him a bout with revengeseeking "Sugar" Shane Mosley, who was beaten by the Viper twice in amateur at 139lbs/light welterweight, and kept off the O-Games team of 1992 in Spain.

The game is full of optical illusions everywhere. Uncle Roger said that he was never letting his nephew fight the Viper. When Team Viper was trying to make that bout.

As Uncle Roger said: "Most people don't know syet 'bout boskin.'" They definitely don't know about the negotiations that take place, but bull jive as if they do. Holla!

Brad says:

Wow! Wow! Wee! C'mon, my BBG bro! Act like an OG! And quit tying to bullsyet me. The late, great Jimmy Ellis hopped from middleweight to heavyweight because there were no fight glory or big money at light heavyweight.

Even way back in da day, "Homicide" Hank Armstrong popped up from lightweight to welterweight because no money or glory happening at the then new division of light welterweight.

The late, great Emile Giffrin shot up from welterweight to middleweight because that is where the money was. No big payday was lurking at light middleweight.

"Fists of Iron" Duran skipped light welter his d@mn self because of no money, fame or glory at that weight until HT came. Then FoI weaseled da double fudge OUT!

Sugar Shane Mosley skipped from lightweight to welter for the money and glory. There was no darn moolah glory at light welterweight.

"Superman" Roy Jones Jr leaped from lightheavy to heavy in a single bounce because there was no money, fame or glory at cruiserweight. Da Manny crashed from flyweight to junior featherweight because the purses were bigger there than at bantamweight.

Cut the crap, Brad. Duran was about prizefighting and avoided the dangerous HT because of bigger, easier fishes to fry for bigger money at higher weights. And that is okay. It is prizefighting. But we don't need to sanitize history.

All but one percent of darn fighters DUCKED. Duran is one of 'em [$¡¢] duckers. And he did it to HT. Just as HT did it to "Bump City" Bumpus. It ain't personal, it is smart-@$$ business -- hurt bitnezz.

You BBGs have become like those before you full of inattention blindness nostalgic yesteryears-ness [sic]. And will no longer tell it like it was. And has always been. And will always be. Holla!


See, that's where we totally disagree. You say "Duran avoided HT because bigger, easier fishes to fry for bigger money"...that's funny that you think Leonard, Hearns, Benitez, Hagler were "easier less dangerous fishes" for Duran than Pryor. That's crazy. But whatever...I'm a blind nostalgic BBG.

Radam G says:

Just as SOG Ward fought in the O-Games as a light heavyweight when he was a middleweight, you have a lot -- and I mean a lot -- of fighters fighting at two and three weight divisions above what they can make.

But, c'mon, man! Five and six pounds between each weight division, ain't nothing for boxers. Hehe! We laugh at dat syet because we know that it is an optical illusion. And for corrupted alphabet-sanctioning organization to make that dough by charging big-arse sanctioning fees.

There are eight divisions in pro boxing, not 22, as far as whup-arse, legal mayhem Boxers are concern. But we play da game for da moolah and da fame. Holla!

The Shadow says:

Just as SOG Ward fought in the O-Games as a light heavyweight when he was a middleweight, you have a lot -- and I mean a lot -- of fighters fighting at two and three weight divisions above what they can make.

But, c'mon, man! Five and six pounds between each weight division, ain't nothing for boxers. Hehe! We laugh at dat syet because we know that it is an optical illusion. And for corrupted alphabet-sanctioning organization to make that dough by charging big-arse sanctioning fees.

There are eight divisions in pro boxing, not 22, as far as whup-arse, legal mayhem Boxers are concern. But we play da game for da moolah and da fame. Holla!


And some of them are Lil Floyd, Pacquiao, Marquez and AB who all can make lightweight if they want. By Viper and Money was never feasible at any point of their careers.

And yes! Phony weight classes. "It's all about the money all the time."

Radam G says:

See, that's where we totally disagree. You say "Duran avoided HT because bigger, easier fishes to fry for bigger money"...that's funny that you think Leonard, Hearns, Benitez, Hagler were "easier less dangerous fishes" for Duran than Pryor. That's crazy. But whatever...I'm a blind nostalgic BBG.

I'm glad that we agree. Dangerous fighters to a fan, are not so to a boxer. And the one who think is not dangerous to him, is dangerous as mofu, according to that boxer. Styles make fights. And we all secretly know what will give us the most problems.

Rev. [Big] George will tell you how he was scared shytless of the late, greats "Smokin'" Joe Frazier and "Half Mandingo Warrior, half black Superman" Kenny Norton. And they gave him no problems. But he was totally unscared of GOAT Ali. And we know what happened.

I was scared shytless of nowadays trainer Ann "The Mermaid" Wolfe. She scared me so badly that I excused myself to go to the bathroom and jumped out if the wonder and ran like bytch from the gym instead of taking her challenge to spar. And almost 15 years later, I've not been back to that gym just in case she shows up.

She said that she was going to whip my arse and then F it. NTYG! I'm not crazy. Holla!

The Shadow says:

I'm glad that we agree. Dangerous fighters to a fan, are not so to a boxer. And the one who think is not dangerous to him, is dangerous as mofu, according to that boxer. Styles make fights. And we all secretly know what will give us the most problems.

Rev. [Big] George will tell you how he was scared shytless of the late, greats "Smokin'" Joe Frazier and "Half Mandingo Warrior, half black Superman" Kenny Norton. And they gave him no problems. But he was totally unscared of GOAT Ali. And we know what happened.

I was scared shytless of nowadays trainer Ann "The Mermaid" Wolfe. She scared me so badly that I excused myself to go to the bathroom and jumped out if the wonder and ran like bytch from the gym instead of taking her challenge to spar. And almost 15 years later, I've not been back to that gym just in case she shows up.

She said that she was going to whip my arse and then F it. NTYG! I'm not crazy. Holla!


Speaking of the Dingo Warrior, thought you might like this article: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=R89OAAAAIBAJ&sjid=-gEEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5103%2C2240102

#whammy

Radam G says:

[QUOTE=The Shadow;53530]And some of them are Lil Floyd, Pacquiao, Marquez and AB who all can make lightweight if they want. But Viper and Money was never feasible at any point of their careers.

And yes! Phony weight classes. "It's all about the money all the time."[/QUOTE]

All DAY! It is about da moolah! And staying and being healthy to make that moolah. So you do duck here and there. Ducking ain't bad. Ducking ain't wrong. Ducking is very smart. GOAT Ali would've lasted longer and made more money if he would have ducked more.

For instant, when the GOAT made comeback in 1981, he should've ducked Holmes and fought Big John Tate. Holla!

Radam G says:

[QUOTE=Brad;53527]See, that's where we totally disagree. You say "Duran avoided HT because bigger, easier fishes to fry for bigger money"...that's funny that you think Leonard, Hearns, Benitez, Hagler were "easier less dangerous fishes" for Duran than Pryor. That's crazy. But whatever...I'm a blind nostalgic BBG.[/QUOTE]

They were bigger money fighters and he thought that he could beat them. He had doubts -- serious one -- about HT. Holla!

Radam G says:

[QUOTE=The Shadow;53532]Speaking of the Dingo Warrior, thought you might like this article: [url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=R89OAAAAIBAJ&sjid=-gEEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5103%2C2240102

#whammy[/QUOTE]

Dang! I should have known that you would find that. A whole lot of the time here, posers and haters think that I'm making jive about the actuality and reality of da game. Every gimmick and remedy known to humanity have been used in boxing for Desperatos
to get a win.

Back in the GOAT Ali day, you clearly see da whammy approach. Nowadays, it is da slammy with the likes of PEDs and roids peddler falling Angel Heredia and his boss Hulkquez hiding and sliding up in Marquez. Hehe! Holla!

The Shadow says:

[QUOTE=Radam G;53535]Dang! I should have known that you would find that. A whole lot of the time here, posers and haters think that I'm making jive about the actuality and reality of da game. Every gimmick and remedy known to humanity have been used in boxing for Desperatos
to get a win.

Back in the GOAT Ali day, you clearly see da whammy approach. Nowadays, it is da slammy with the likes of PEDs and roids peddler falling Angel Heredia and his boss Hulkquez hiding and sliding up in Marquez. Hehe! Holla![/QUOTE]

Haha, you know me, brother!

Radam G says:

[QUOTE=The Commish;53500]Very true about sparring sessions, Brad. Very true.

I once watched a sparring session between Muhammad Ali and Rodney Bobick. Based on their three rounds, Rodney was the next heavyweight champion of the world.

Also, very true about Aaron Pryor not beating or even fighting welterweights. However, Pryor really was a lightweight who couldn't get a meaningful fight at 135, so he moved to 140. I realize Duran was also a lightweight, but he had a thicker frame and could handle the move to welterweight and above much better than Pryor could.

I really would love to have seen the Pryor who beat Arguello in 1982 face the Duran of the late '70's at 140 pounds. My pick would be Duran, but what an all-out war it probably would have been!

-Randy G.[/QUOTE]

Wow! C'mon, Commish! Now you know why the late Rodney Bobick looked good against the GOAT Ali. Joe Blow would look good against the GOAT Ali after one of the GOAT Ali's marathon going through a couple of "love tunnels" of some of those "bad foxes" that he would keep hidden away in camp.

Plus the champ loved the ice cream. And probably had put down a couple of quarts before mixing with R-Bo. Now that is a combo for an arse whuppin' by the mildest-warm sparring partner.

In addition, as some champs are wicked gym fighters and under-the-lights fighters, I don't have to tell you about the ghost, you already know. He "often looked like syet in sparring" in the words of his late, great "spiritual trainer" Drew "Bundini" Brown. But would come alive in full force and kill you under those hot lights in that hot-arse squared jungle.

You have probably known the notorious habits of the GOAT Ali longer than I've been breathing. Holla!

The_King_AJ says:

[QUOTE=The Shadow;53530]And some of them are Lil Floyd, Pacquiao, Marquez and AB who all can make lightweight if they want. But Viper and Money was never feasible at any point of their careers.

And yes! Phony weight classes.[B] "It's all about the money all the time."[/B][/QUOTE]

Still peddling that half-truth B.S I see.

The_King_AJ says:

Honestly dont know why sparring sessions are seen as such a great indication. In sparring, you're practicing certain things in particular, you're possibly not in the best shape, you don't always flick that killer instinct on etc. etc.

Radam G says:

[QUOTE=The_King_AJ;53564]Honestly dont know why sparring sessions are seen as such a great indication. In sparring, you're practicing certain things in particular, you're possibly not in the best shape, you don't always flick that killer instinct on etc. etc.[/QUOTE]

Fair point. Holla!

the Roast says:

My favorite Duran moment was the announcement of the decision after the Barkley fight. The microphones would not work so the ring announcer talked loudly as the crowd fell silent to hear Duran rewarded as the winner and the NEW... It was a stunning upset as Duran was thought to be finished. Iran had just KOed Hearns and Duran was supposed to be an easy fight. A motivated Duran was never an easy fight for any one at any weight. One of the best pound for pound fighters of all time.

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