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A Message For Floyd Mayweather

BY Frank Lotierzo ON May 16, 2014
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For the past 30 plus years we saw it happen quite a bit, a smaller fighter taking on the bigger fighter when he's run out of formidable opposition in his own division. However, it happened even more so circa the turn of the 20th century, up through the 1950s.

When one first hears of a meeting between an outstanding welterweight and middleweight, they're very intrigued. Of course the onus is on the smaller fighter, supposedly, and it's the bigger fighter who is in a no win situation. The challenge is to see if the legitimately smaller fighter can offset the larger man's strength and power, only it seldom if ever works out that way.

For example, Sugar Ray Leonard, who fought a majority of his career as a welterweight (147) gets a lot of credit for beating Marvin Hagler, who fought his entire career as a middleweight (160). In the main that sounds pretty impressive, except when Leonard and Hagler fought, Leonard weighed in at 158 and Hagler was 158 1/2. If it were a true welterweight versus middleweight bout, Leonard would've weighed in at 146, which was his average weight for his welterweight title bouts and Hagler would come in at his usual 158 range. Had Leonard been able to decision Hagler with Marvin holding a 12 pound weight pull, that would've been really something.

Sure, Leonard deserves a ton of credit for beating Hagler because he didn't force him to come down in weight to win his title. He did that when he stopped WBC light heavyweight title holder Donny Lalonde. In reality Leonard beat Lalonde at 168, the super-middleweight limit, not the 175 maximum that Lalonde was afforded as the light heavyweight title holder. In truth Lalonde was compromised having to come in 5/6 pounds lighter than what his best fighting weight was.

Today, the two biggest draws in boxing, Floyd Mayweather and Manny Pacquiao, have won some of their biggest fights via bringing the bigger opponent down a few pounds in order to win his title. In my eyes, this taints their victory, just as I don't consider Sugar Ray Leonard ever being a legitimate light heavyweight title holder. In the last 60 years it's only happened one time, where one champion of a particular division fought a bigger champion for an undisputed title without either fighter moving up or down from their natural weight.

On June 25th 1952, middleweight champion Sugar Ray Robinson (157.5) fought light heavyweight champion Joey Maxim (173) for Maxim's title. There was no catch-weight clause and Robinson entered the ring as a middleweight and Maxim entered as a full fledged light heavyweight. The fight at Yankee Stadium was originally scheduled for the 23rd of June but was postponed two days because of rain. So the fighters actually had to weigh-in twice with the above being the official weights for both fighters.

The temperature on the night of the fight was 103 degrees and referee Ruby Goldstein had to be replaced by Ray Miller after the 10th round due to being overcome by the heat. After building a commanding lead and controlling the fight due to his speed and terrific combination punching, Robinson told Dr. Alexander Schiff after the 13th round, "I can't get up on my feet, I'm all in."

With that Robinson lost his only bid for the light heavyweight title.

Robinson, fading from the weight he was giving up and the heat, stunned the crowd when the precision puncher missed with a hay-maker right hand and fell flat on his face in the 13th round. After 13 rounds Robinson lead on all three official scorecards (10-3) (9-3-1) and (7-3-3). After the bout Maxim said he had planned to let Ray punch himself out and that Robinson was more undone by his body punching in the second half of the fight and not the extenuating heat and humidity. This was the only time in 200 fights that Robinson was ever stopped. Granted, Joey Maxim wasn't Archie Moore who would relieve Joey of his title six months later. The point is Robinson didn't make Maxim jump through hoops to make the fight. Everyone knows Robinson was a shrewd negotiator and probably wouldn't have challenged Moore if he were the reigning champ at the time. But what if he pulled rank on Maxim and forced him to come in at 168 or 169, it still would've been a light heavyweight title bout?

He still would've been out-weighed by 10 pounds.

On the other hand what would losing those four or five unnecessary pounds have done to Maxim in the 103 degree heat? Would he still have been able to come on in the last three rounds of the fight after getting worked over for a majority of it during rounds one through 10? I doubt it, he would've been drained from having to make the lower weight. Maxim wasn't flashy, but very strong, very durable and very patient. Joey was used to going long in every fight -- exactly the kind of guy you don't want to have to go 15 rounds with in 103 degree heat. Had Robinson forced Maxim to come in so far under the light heavyweight limit, he probably would've won the fight. Had that been the case, Robinson would have officially been the light heavyweight champion of the world. Robinson, despite losing to Maxim, is still the gold standard for all boxers, and the debate really begins with who is number two among the greatest of the great pound-for-pound boxers in history.

The gimmick of catch-weight fights today taints the historical record of many fighters, not all, who've won multiple division titles. Let's see what happens when the lightweight champ enters the ring as a lightweight and challenges the welterweight champ without any gimmicks or stipulations that hamstring the welterweight. Same goes for the welterweight challenging the middleweight and right on up the divisions. And if the smaller fighter feels it's too dangerous or too much to overcome, then he should stay in his own division and build his legacy there.

Wouldn't it be something to see the best welterweight in the world, Floyd Maywether, fight Gennady Golovkin with Floyd weighing in at 147 and Gennady weighing in at 160? How about Golovkin at 160 versus Sergey Kovalev at 175?

Bringing the bigger man down in weight isn't who he is as a fighter. Why taint him for one fight and change history, other than for money and the perceived star to build up his legacy via a gimmick?

Sure, it looks good on paper, but it's tainted and isn't a true indication of the smaller fighter versus the bigger fighter.

Today there's a monetary number that can make the catch-weight fight and the terms with each fighter having a say. The smaller fighter has a say in the weight and the bigger fighter has a say in how much money he needs to compromise himself. Don't get me wrong, fighters have the right to fight at whatever weight they want to. However, it's not an indication of a true confrontation between a bigger fighter and a smaller fighter, such as Robinson-Maxim or the first Louis-Conn fight where the announced weights were Conn 174 1/2 vs. Louis 199, although their actual weight was really 169 and 204. Today it's a myth saying that smaller fighters have feasted on beating bigger fighters. What they've done is compromised the bigger fighter and reduced him to less than he is at the weigh-in, and often times defeated him.

Frank Lotierzo can be contacted at GlovedFist@Gmail.com

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Comment on this article

The Good Doctor says:

Love the article. The first sentence of the last paragraph sums it up though. Catch weight fights are usually about the moolah. One of the fighters involved knows before the contract is signed that they will be in for sometimes serious inconvenience but they sign anyway strictly because of the money they stand to make. However, in defense of catchweights, it does sometimes bring about fights that generate alot of buzz and eyes (i.e Cotto v Pacquiao) that may not have happened otherwise.

I also think one of the underrated parts of catch weight fights is the mental aspect. In alot of ways it says to an opponent, I call the shots and you will do things my way. That can motivate some fighters, that can anger some fighters, and even unnerve a few.

Radam G says:

Being about the moolah is first and foremost. It is called prizefighting for a reason. Not doing it is not treason. Holla!

amayseng says:

Floyd at this age and after his last fight is not gonna step up. Chino roughed him up enough to where Floyd will either call it quits or just take MUCH easier fights. He is 37 and the recovery is becoming more difficult each fight. Can't really blame him as he makes a lot to face lesser opposition.

The Shadow says:

Frank, that is exactly what Floyd does and has been doing.

Let's look at his past five or so fights.

Against Cotto, who had hydrated to the high 160s, Mayweather weighed 147. Took the bigger man's title. If this were the old days, this would equate to the welterweight taking the light heavyweight title form the bigger man. (No super middleweight weight class in those days.)

Versus De La Hoya, he came into the ring at 148 who came in the ring as a super middleweight as well. Took the bigger man's belt.

Last September with Canelo, repeat. Same thing. Floyd weighed 146 (!) the day of the fight while Canelo came into the ring at least 165 pounds, if not more, since he had time to rehydrate even further after having been weighed.

And for what it's worth, it's the only time Mayweather has perceivably made a guy come "down," which he really didn't. What's been missed in that narrative is that the Canelo side had offered 150 so as a result, they split the difference, allowing Canelo two EXTRA pounds instead of the 150 they had told ESPN they would do for Floyd if he would agree to face them.

Then you had Robert Guerrero, a guy who walks around at over 160 pounds, who was a middleweight on the night of the fight. That was a classic welterweight vs. a middleweight scenario like the one you proposed.

Marcos Maidana, of course, was 165 pounds. Another super middleweight/light heavyweight, according to the day-of-the-fight weight standards, while Floyd was 148.

Victor Ortiz and Carlos Baldomir both were 164 pounds while Floyd was 149 for those two.

For some bizarre reason, people seem to think Floyd started at welterweight. He came out of the Olympics as a featherweight at 126 pounds.

For this reason, I think it's really ludicrous to draw historical similarities between welterweights who challenged for middleweight titles and apply that logic to Mayweather, seeing as the only weight class in which he has fought consecutively and consistently for any sustained period is super featherweight.

(Believe it or not, the most consecutive welterweight fights he's had are four (!).)

Instead of using the Sugar Rays' ascend from welter to middle as a rigid blueprint for Floyd to replicate, consider the facts that Floyd:

A) an ectomorph is maxed out and grossly outweighed at welterweight
B) Ray Leonard went up 24 pounds while Floyd went up 24
C) Ray Robinson went up 26 (Maxim was 173) and came up short, as mentioned in the article

If they could somehow get same-day weigh-ins back -- long overdue -- we could see him challenge for those same titles. And unlike the Sugar Rays, he might actually win it for real.

amayseng says:

Come on Shadow, does not matter what Canelo weighed the day of the fight he had to dehydrate down to make the weight.

I think the same thing would have occurred with Floyd boxing his inexperienced ears off, but it is what it is. Canelo has stamina and weight problems, and it was a catch weight.


I am a huge fan of Ward and the same for him fighting a zombie weakened Dawson who looked frail dehydrating down.


Floyd is good enough that he can go up and still make his mark against certain guys.

Radam G says:

Come on Shadow, does not matter what Canelo weighed the day of the fight he had to dehydrate down to make the weight.

I think the same thing would have occurred with Floyd boxing his inexperienced ears off, but it is what it is. Canelo has stamina and weight problems, and it was a catch weight.


I am a huge fan of Ward and the same for him fighting a zombie weakened Dawson who looked frail dehydrating down.


Floyd is good enough that he can go up and still make his mark against certain guys.


But the smartness of the game is to establish controll of your opponent long before the bout starts. Money May and SOG are geniuses of the legal mayhem biz. Holla!

King Beef says:

Frank, that is exactly what Floyd does and has been doing.

Let's look at his past five or so fights.

Against Cotto, who had hydrated to the high 160s, Mayweather weighed 147. Took the bigger man's title. If this were the old days, this would equate to the welterweight taking the light heavyweight title form the bigger man. (No super middleweight weight class in those days.)

Versus De La Hoya, he came into the ring at 148 who came in the ring as a super middleweight as well. Took the bigger man's belt.

Last September with Canelo, repeat. Same thing. Floyd weighed 146 (!) the day of the fight while Canelo came into the ring at least 165 pounds, if not more, since he had time to rehydrate even further after having been weighed.

And for what it's worth, it's the only time Mayweather has perceivably made a guy come "down," which he really didn't. What's been missed in that narrative is that the Canelo side had offered 150 so as a result, they split the difference, allowing Canelo two EXTRA pounds instead of the 150 they had told ESPN they would do for Floyd if he would agree to face them.

Then you had Robert Guerrero, a guy who walks around at over 160 pounds, who was a middleweight on the night of the fight. That was a classic welterweight vs. a middleweight scenario like the one you proposed.

Marcos Maidana, of course, was 165 pounds. Another super middleweight/light heavyweight, according to the day-of-the-fight weight standards, while Floyd was 148.

Victor Ortiz and Carlos Baldomir both were 164 pounds while Floyd was 149 for those two.

For some bizarre reason, people seem to think Floyd started at welterweight. He came out of the Olympics as a featherweight at 126 pounds.

For this reason, I think it's really ludicrous to draw historical similarities between welterweights who challenged for middleweight titles and apply that logic to Mayweather, seeing as the only weight class in which he has fought consecutively and consistently for any sustained period is super featherweight.

(Believe it or not, the most consecutive welterweight fights he's had are four (!).)

Instead of using the Sugar Rays' ascend from welter to middle as a rigid blueprint for Floyd to replicate, consider the facts that Floyd:

A) an ectomorph is maxed out and grossly outweighed at welterweight and is only saved by superior ring IQ and underrated/all-time great pound-for-pound physical strength
B) Ray Leonard went up 21 pounds while Floyd went up 24
C) Ray Robinson went up 26 (Maxim was 173) and came up short, as mentioned in the article

If they could somehow get same-day weigh-ins back -- long overdue -- we could see him challenge for those same titles. And unlike the Sugar Rays, he might actually win it for real.


The fight night weights are always overlooked. Mayweather is consistently giving up 10-20 pounds; and no he shouldn't get pass for the Canelo and Marquez CWs they weren't needed at all. To me it just takes away from the wins.

Carmine Cas says:

Come on Shadow, does not matter what Canelo weighed the day of the fight he had to dehydrate down to make the weight.

I think the same thing would have occurred with Floyd boxing his inexperienced ears off, but it is what it is. Canelo has stamina and weight problems, and it was a catch weight.


I am a huge fan of Ward and the same for him fighting a zombie weakened Dawson who looked frail dehydrating down.


Floyd is good enough that he can go up and still make his mark against certain guys.


To be fair to SOG, Dawson called out Ward at 168; he gave him the advantage from the getco. The rest is history.

amayseng says:

To be fair to SOG, Dawson called out Ward at 168; he gave him the advantage from the getco. The rest is history.


I know and agree, but either way Dawson looked frail and unhealthy..

I wished Ward just took the fight at 175 and still came in at 168, he still would have won imho but the fight would have been a bit more competitive.

Ward needs to get active his prime years are going by.

Carmine Cas says:

I know and agree, but either way Dawson looked frail and unhealthy..

I wished Ward just took the fight at 175 and still came in at 168, he still would have won imho but the fight would have been a bit more competitive.

Ward needs to get active his prime years are going by.


True, but that's when boxing comes down to a business.

The same thing can be said about Floyd, and Manny especially.

The_King_AJ says:

[video=youtube;43i4G3jSZvI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43i4G3jSZvI[/video]

The_King_AJ says:

I know and agree, but either way Dawson looked frail and unhealthy..

I wished Ward just took the fight at 175 and still came in at 168, he still would have won imho but the fight would have been a bit more competitive.

Ward needs to get active his prime years are going by.


The funny thing is, Ward was a light heavyweight in the amateurs, yet he doesn't want to fight Kovalev.

Radam G says:

The funny thing is, Ward was a light heavyweight in the amateurs, yet he doesn't want to fight Kovalev.


SOG Ward fights for MONEY. Those that can, UP DA MOOLAH! And SOG steps up and kayos Kovalev. And the amateurs are not the pros. Tommy Hearns lost to Mike Ayala in the amateurs at 119lbs, but Ayala didn't step up in the pros and fight him at welterweight.

My friend, you have some wide logic. Holla!

The_King_AJ says:

SOG Ward fights for MONEY. Those that can, UP DA MOOLAH! And SOG steps up and kayos Kovalev. And the amateurs are not the pros. Tommy Hearns lost to Mike Ayala in the amateurs at 119lbs, but Ayala didn't step up in the pros and fight him at welterweight.

My friend, you have some wide logic. Holla!


Meh...

Ward fighting for money, even though he makes NO money. He just sits there in his hometown and can't even sell out his hometown arena. He doesn't take the big fights these days. He's not as entitled as Mayweather as Mayweather is a salesman, where's the guys that looks for legacy?
I'm interested in that sort of fighter, hence why my three favourite fighters today are Khan, Rigondeaux and Lomachenko, and now to add to that list, Naoya Inoue (World champ after his 6th pro fight). Someone like Rigondeaux simply doesn't give a monkey, he's simply too badaszz and believes in himself. Welcome to the new age.

I'm not interested in guys with padded records. Ward has a good resume but lately it sucks. Dawson isn't a really good name + the fact that Dawson was drained, then Edwin Rodriguez lool

That's not the point, Radam. Ward was much younger when he fought as a 175lber. Ward is the same guy that is talking about moving up to light heavyweight and eventually to HEAVYWEIGHT.

Your logic is even wider, Radam. 175lbs in amateurs, 168lbs in pros. Ayala =119lbs in amateurs, why the hell would he go to 147?

The fact is, Andre just talks **** about other fighters, but just sits there and does nothing.

Radam G says:

Meh...

Ward fighting for money, even though he makes NO money. He just sits there in his hometown and can't even sell out his hometown arena. He doesn't take the big fights these days. He's not as entitled as Mayweather as Mayweather is a salesman, where's the guys that looks for legacy?
I'm interested in that sort of fighter, hence why my three favourite fighters today are Khan, Rigondeaux and Lomachenko, and now to add to that list, Naoya Inoue (World champ after his 6th pro fight). Someone like Rigondeaux simply doesn't give a monkey, he's simply too badaszz and believes in himself. Welcome to the new age.

I'm not interested in guys with padded records. Ward has a good resume but lately it sucks. Dawson isn't a really good name + the fact that Dawson was drained, then Edwin Rodriguez lool

That's not the point, Radam. Ward was much younger when he fought as a 175lber. Ward is the same guy that is talking about moving up to light heavyweight and eventually to HEAVYWEIGHT.

Your logic is even wider, Radam. 175lbs in amateurs, 168lbs in pros. Ayala =119lbs in amateurs, why the hell would he go to 147?

The fact is, Andre just talks **** about other fighters, but just sits there and does nothing.


SOG Ward is in the prizefighting biz of making moolah his way, not by the way of anybody else. And he fights where he wants to fights and when he wants to dance. And talking that he does is doing is free. If it is syet to you flush it down the toilet, and listen to it not.

The point is that no fan rules any boxers. He risks his life prizefighting, not fan fighting. When the fans don't like a fighter anymore, they show it by not being butts in seats or eyeballs in front of viewing screens.

You don't demand what movies and songs that entertainers do. So why demand that boxingtainers jump to your timing to do what they do?

Enjoy da game. And don't shoot flame. But if you do, that is so lame. Holla!

The Shadow says:

Meh...

Ward fighting for money, even though he makes NO money. He just sits there in his hometown and can't even sell out his hometown arena. He doesn't take the big fights these days. He's not as entitled as Mayweather as Mayweather is a salesman, where's the guys that looks for legacy?
I'm interested in that sort of fighter, hence why my three favourite fighters today are Khan, Rigondeaux and Lomachenko, and now to add to that list, Naoya Inoue (World champ after his 6th pro fight). Someone like Rigondeaux simply doesn't give a monkey, he's simply too badaszz and believes in himself. Welcome to the new age.

I'm not interested in guys with padded records. Ward has a good resume but lately it sucks. Dawson isn't a really good name + the fact that Dawson was drained, then Edwin Rodriguez lool

That's not the point, Radam. Ward was much younger when he fought as a 175lber. Ward is the same guy that is talking about moving up to light heavyweight and eventually to HEAVYWEIGHT.

Your logic is even wider, Radam. 175lbs in amateurs, 168lbs in pros. Ayala =119lbs in amateurs, why the hell would he go to 147?

The fact is, Andre just talks **** about other fighters, but just sits there and does nothing.


I wasn't going to say anything but I have to...

AJ, you are very, very wrong on several points.

1) you have to be incredibly naive if you think ANYONE fights for ANYTHING but money. Your position sounds idealistic, and really, straight up naive. Fight for legacy?? Any serious prizefighter would laugh in your face if you said that in a private conversation. Seriously.

Rigondeaux is probably the guy who I have most empathy for as a person and most appreciation for as a boxer.

I honestly believe he is the only boxer alive in the past 25 years who I can see beating Mayweather. That's how high I rate Rigondeaux.

But please don't be silly. Rigo is bada$$. But he is not "new age" because such a thing simply don't exist.

If anything, the new age fighter is the guy who signs with Al Haymon, becomes more business conscious, takes greater ownership over his management and subsequently a less reckless approach to his career. That's the new age fighter, if such a thing exists.

Make no mistake about it: Lomachenko getting the chance to do something that early in his career is done to maximize his earning potential.

Just look at the purses he's been getting at this stage in his career. It's unheard of. And that is what he fights for.

2) Here's the 411 on Andre Ward: Ward was NOT fight a light heavyweight as an amateur (which is 178, not 175, by the way...). EVER. He was a middleweight. Just like he was when he started in the pros.

Andre Ward was 165 pounds before, during and after the Olympics. Saying Ward was a light heavy is one of the biggest misconceptions and lazy truths in circulation today.

The ONLY reason he competed at 178 at the Olympics was because the US had TWO superb prospects at 165 in Andre Dirrell and Ward. For an amateur boxing expert like yourself, I'm surprised you don't know this.

Dirrell had beaten amateur standout Gennady Golovkin of Kazakhan (some of you may be familiar with him now), who he went on to lose a disputed decision to in the semifinals. So the US team asked Ward, the more mentally and physically strong guy to compete at 178 to improve Team USA winning chances.

Even when Ward fought at 178, he was 165!

And he's more than willing to fight Kovalev. But like he's said, behind Kovalev, who's not even close to being PPV attraction -- the next career step for Ward -- who else is there for Ward at 175?

He knows -- and so do the Duvas, don't think for a second they don't -- that he absolutely humiliates and possibliy stops Kovalev. Then what?

Seriously, despite what the casual fan may think, it's not good to move up and down, up and down. Just because Floyd does it doesn't mean everyone else can. Mayweather is an anomaly, a freak of nature, whether his detractors acknowledge it or not.

But Ward is meticulous. They are building and preparing his body for the eventual jump, which will come when they believe the time is right. That's smart.

Besides, there are far bigger money fights for Ward at 168. While he may have cleaned out the competition at super middleweight, he has yet to empty the cash register.

Froch in the UK, Groves, Degale, Golovkin, Kessler in Denmark, Bute if he gets his act together, and the biggest one of them all: Julio Cesar Chavez and his golden, built-in Mexican fan base.

3) Dawson was a HUGE scalp for Ward. You're just saying that now because his stock is down because he got himself knocked out versus Adonis Stevenson.

Dawson was a P4P regular and had been for years and years and years. During that period, he had never been rated lower than 2-3. Keep in mind, Dawson beat himself against Stevenson through his own arrogance before the fight and during the fight. (Dawson is an idiot. No denying that. He's an idiot on more levels than fans will probably ever know. But he was/is also a great technical fighter.)

Rodriguez was a nice comeback fight after a long layoff. Ward would fight Klitschko if he had to.

I don't think it's fair to discredit Ward if/because you don't like him. And please, please, please don't be fooled by the nonsense of fighting for pride or legacy.

Those guys get hurt, braind damaged, chopped up, chewed and spat out.

It's common sense, really. Only a fool would get punched in the face for "honor." To quote Shark Tank's Kevin O'Leary, the following mantra holds true in business and even truer in professional boxing:

"It's ALL about the money ALL the time."

And that's all there is to it.

The_King_AJ says:

SOG Ward is in the prizefighting biz of making moolah his way, not by the way of anybody else. And he fights where he wants to fights and when he wants to dance. And talking that he does is doing is free. If it is syet to you flush it down the toilet, and listen to it not.

The point is that no fan rules any boxers. He risks his life prizefighting, not fan fighting. When the fans don't like a fighter anymore, they show it by not being butts in seats or eyeballs in front of viewing screens.

You don't demand what movies and songs that entertainers do. So why demand that boxingtainers jump to your timing to do what they do?

Enjoy da game. And don't shoot flame. But if you do, that is so lame. Holla!


Sure, and Ward's way of prizefighting from what I gather from you is to: 1. fight easier opposition 2. for little money as he's not a marketable character. He does nothing to market himself. He could make a lot more money. It's like me studying but not dedicating more than 2 hours a day towards study, yet calling myself a student and saying I'm all about getting them grades..it just doesn't work, does it.

Fans just want to see the best fight the best that's all, otherwise they leave empty seats in arenas. They want to see greatness, well, I want to see greatness rather than it being confined to the great middleweights of the past. I understand it's a business, but there's no point of any sort of boxing discussion whatsoever then is there, there's no point of a forum.

Radam G says:

Sure, and Ward's way of prizefighting from what I gather from you is to: 1. fight easier opposition 2. for little money as he's not a marketable character. He does nothing to market himself. He could make a lot more money. It's like me studying but not dedicating more than 2 hours a day towards study, yet calling myself a student and saying I'm all about getting them grades..it just doesn't work, does it.

Fans just want to see the best fight the best that's all, otherwise they leave empty seats in arenas. They want to see greatness, well, I want to see greatness rather than it being confined to the great middleweights of the past. I understand it's a business, but there's no point of any sort of boxing discussion whatsoever then is there, there's no point of a forum.


Wow! Your assumptions are badly blinding you. SOG Ward is the highest paid super middleweight in history. You don't even have clue of how much money he has made. And just from the "Super Six Tournament" and clubbing "Superbad" Chad Dawson.

I'm going to just let you ride off that cliff. Because your quick-draw blowing without knowing is badly showing. If you only knew! You have to study for tons of hours, but I only had to do it for a few.

Keep doing t your way. And you will never get up to the big pay. So don't fake it, until you make it. Because nobody has to take it. Holla!

The_King_AJ says:

I wasn't going to say anything but I have to...

AJ, you are very, very wrong on several points.

1) you have to be incredibly naive if you think ANYONE fights for ANYTHING but money. Your position sounds idealistic, and really, straight up naive. Fight for legacy?? Any serious prizefighter would laugh in your face if you said that in a private conversation. Seriously.
Rigondeaux is probably the guy who I have most empathy for as a person and most appreciation for as a boxer.
I honestly believe he is the only boxer alive in the past 25 years who I can see beating Mayweather. That's how high I rate Rigondeaux.
But please don't be silly. Rigo is bada$$. But he is not "new age" because such a thing simply don't exist.
If anything, the new age fighter is the guy who signs with Al Haymon, becomes more business conscious, takes greater ownership over his management and subsequently a less reckless approach to his career. That's the new age fighter, if such a thing exists.
Make no mistake about it: Lomachenko getting the chance to do something that early in his career is done to maximize his earning potential.
Just look at the purses he's been getting at this stage in his career. It's unheard of. And that is what he fights for.

2) Here's the 411 on Andre Ward: Ward was NOT fight a light heavyweight as an amateur (which is 178, not 175, by the way...). EVER. He was a middleweight. Just like he was when he started in the pros.
Andre Ward was 165 pounds before, during and after the Olympics. Saying Ward was a light heavy is one of the biggest misconceptions and lazy truths in circulation today.
The ONLY reason he competed at 178 at the Olympics was because the US had TWO superb prospects at 165 in Andre Dirrell and Ward. For an amateur boxing expert like yourself, I'm surprised you don't know this.
Dirrell had beaten amateur standout Gennady Golovkin of Kazakhan (some of you may be familiar with him now), who he went on to lose a disputed decision to in the semifinals. So the US team asked Ward, the more mentally and physically strong guy to compete at 178 to improve Team USA winning chances.
Even when Ward fought at 178, he was 165!
And he's more than willing to fight Kovalev. But like he's said, behind Kovalev, who's not even close to being PPV attraction -- the next career step for Ward -- who else is there for Ward at 175?
He knows -- and so do the Duvas, don't think for a second they don't -- that he absolutely humiliates and possibliy stops Kovalev. Then what?
Seriously, despite what the casual fan may think, it's not good to move up and down, up and down. Just because Floyd does it doesn't mean everyone else can. Mayweather is an anomaly, a freak of nature, whether his detractors acknowledge it or not.
But Ward is meticulous. They are building and preparing his body for the eventual jump, which will come when they believe the time is right. That's smart.
Besides, there are far bigger money fights for Ward at 168. While he may have cleaned out the competition at super middleweight, he has yet to empty the cash register.
Froch in the UK, Groves, Degale, Golovkin, Kessler in Denmark, Bute if he gets his act together, and the biggest one of them all: Julio Cesar Chavez and his golden, built-in Mexican fan base.

3) Dawson was a HUGE scalp for Ward. You're just saying that now because his stock is down because he got himself knocked out versus Adonis Stevenson.
Dawson was a P4P regular and had been for years and years and years. During that period, he had never been rated lower than 2-3. Keep in mind, Dawson beat himself against Stevenson through his own arrogance before the fight and during the fight. (Dawson is an idiot. No denying that. He's an idiot on more levels than fans will probably ever know. But he was/is also a great technical fighter.)
Rodriguez was a nice comeback fight after a long layoff. Ward would fight Klitschko if he had to.
I don't think it's fair to discredit Ward if/because you don't like him. And please, please, please don't be fooled by the nonsense of fighting for pride or legacy.
Those guys get hurt, braind damaged, chopped up, chewed and spat out.
It's common sense, really. Only a fool would get punched in the face for "honor." To quote Shark Tank's Kevin O'Leary, the following mantra holds true in business and even truer in professional boxing:

"It's ALL about the money ALL the time."

And that's all there is to it.


Thanks for the response. You are wrong on several points.


Floyd who hasn't fought any great fighters, and ends up drawing to Maidana in my opinion (it's certainly plausible to say Maidana won the fight 115-113, is Mayweather is 44-1-1, arguably 44-2. He'd struggle against JLC (even understanding that Maidana is the bigger guy), let's not even talk Duran.

Gamboa was willing to fight Mikey Garcia for free. Lomachenko didn't really care about the money, rather he just wanted to make boxing history, but if you can get a slice of the cake, then why not take it..No one is that naive to think that boxers usually are willing to have legacy fights only. So, you're imagining things. So yeah, I don't care, the number two comes after the number one. Lomachenko wanted a world title fight in his first pro fight, the money issue was some background bull.

You're misreading me again. Welcome to the new age - that is just given to the freshness of the amateurs that I like, that joined the pros. Down to fight anyone rather than cherry pick. They're just that sure of themselves, that shrewd, not too scared to take a loss. That's why I like Keith Thurman too.

What you mean 'beating Mayweather'? He's 122lber.


Ward was a Light Heavyweight. He fought Clemente Russo and Makarenko. Makarenko was actually a cruiser (heavy in ams) who moved down.
Ward was a middleweight in 2001 (and 16-17 years old), and then became a light heavyweight by 2003 and was 20 for the Olympics. Not really a big deal.
It's very much over-exagerated. Anyway, after a little more research, he wasn't 165lbs, he said he was 170lbs, and LHW starts off from 75kg+...he was clearly big enough for the weight, or was Andre Ward the only little dude to ever be in light heavyweight? lool This was at age 19-20, now he's 31 and claims he has plans to make heavyweight, well...
Ward was fast and highly athletic in his fight against Russo too, I've seen it 4 times. They were of completely similar size too.

My interest hasn't really lied with American amateur boxing, because they truly suck shiit. American's are looking to Errol Spence LOL what a joke.
Kazakhstan and Cuba are the front runners today.

All of a sudden, Ward wants it to be a PPV? Sounds like a duck when it's coming from someone who isn't a PPV attraction himself lool Ward did 1.3m views with Dawson and around 1m with Rodriguez. Kovalev did 1m views with Agnew. Who the F is Agnew? Kovalev did 1.3m with Sillakh too. These aren't the names that Ward fought, these are far less known.

No, Dirrell did not beat Golovkin. Golovkin beat Dirrell.

Floyd doesn't move up and down, he barely put on a pound for the Canelo fight recently who was his biggest opponent.
Ward will only fight Froch in his hometown in Cali. I wasn't asking Ward to move up and down like a yoyo, the sort of **** you can get away with at the start of your career when you're young.

Sure, there is some business to be done, but he doesn't do business.




Dawson really isn't a 'huge' scalp. I don't rate a drained Dawson. I don't rate a 175lb Dawson much. A regular B level fighter isn't a huge scalp. He's not a 'great' fighter. Great is a very lofty term.
Dawson was not a P4P 'regular', we could all see that he had limited scope and now for sure his confidence is probably owned because of losing to the best in the division. Can boxers recover from knockouts like that? I think I've got the right to doubt Dawson in that case, nevertheless, Dawson had limited scope either way. He had a win against Hopkins, it just wasn't the right fight for Hopkins, especially at his age.

I think you have a naive view thinking its just about money, money being the ends. You're a fool enough for being a professional boxer where you're getting hit in the face, just like you were when you grew up as a little kid. Top amateurs like Serik Sapiyev didn't turn pro, what takes you to the top and keeps you at the top isn't definitely money.

I leave you with one of my favourite boxers statements: 'money cannot buy what I have' - Mario Kindelan, rejecting a $1m pro contract.

The_King_AJ says:

Wow! Your assumptions are badly blinding you. SOG Ward is the highest paid super middleweight in history. You don't even have clue of how much money he has made. And just from the "Super Six Tournament" and clubbing "Superbad" Chad Dawson.

I'm going to just let you ride off that cliff. Because your quick-draw blowing without knowing is badly showing. If you only knew! You have to study for tons of hours, but I only had to do it for a few.

Keep doing t your way. And you will never get up to the big pay. So don't fake it, until you make it. Because nobody has to take it. Holla!


Yeah, try and say you only have to study for a few when you're studying stochastic processes.
If you draw rubbish numbers, you're not really going to be a PPV sorta guy, that's just the bottom line.

Radam G says:

Yeah, try and say you only have to study for a few when you're studying stochastic processes.
If you draw rubbish numbers, you're not really going to be a PPV sorta guy, that's just the bottom line.


You are clueless. But that is okay. I wouldn't expect anything more. SOG Ward has made more money than 90 percent of the fighters who have ever been on PPV. Even the K-bro/docs have pocket more money than 99 percent of those fighters who have been on PPV. Get a clue! Making big bucks and being a BIG star on PPV have many variables that you will never understand.

PPV is not the outlet for defining boxing riches. Not being on there, and making all that dough, just shows you how powerful that SOG Ward is. Just as studying is not the outlet for defining how well you will do in college and life.

Most none Asians study their arses off and still make low grade. Where as our tiger/chess culture give us an edge from being exposed to proactive learning and critical thinking from babyhood.

Just go ahead and do what you do in tons, and you will never match the apparent innate geniuses who do it in a few. I'm no Nostradamus, but I can see that you are headed for a ton of spills of disappointments because of your arrogance and assumptions.

I'm out! Holla!

Skibbz says:

Some great back and forth on this thread guys keep it up, making for very good reading.

Just to spice things up a little.. I know that fighters don't always fight for money. Yes boxing is a job, and a boxer expects his pay. But the DREAM is to become world champion. Almost every fighter who laces his gloves up for the first time when he is still knee high dreams of being world champ, myself included. To say all that a boxer gets in the ring for is money is a very strange angle to take.

Before the fame, ladies and millions comes glory. You can ask any real champion and they will tell you that. Whether it's the glory of being your local champion, area titlist or world champ, glory is worth more than gold, even to guys who grew up without two pennies to rub together.

A fighter reaches a stage in their career when they mature, and they start to think about life after boxing. You can't find the same glory in life after so you need to make sure your bank balance is healthy by the time you hang them up. Just because you're looking to secure your future (like every other hard working person on the face of the planet) doesn't mean that's all your in it for.



On the topic of Ward. D2 said it in another post well and Shadow mentioned it too on this thread. There are a ton of legitimate fights that can be made so long as Ward wants them to be made. He is sticking to his principles and beliefs which is admirable, but it's having a knock on effect on the memory of the boxing public... which we all know is worse than that of a goldfish. Ward is getting paid. Believe it. He get's paid 7 figures for fights. How much did those two heavyweights get for their scrap for the WBC? Not even close to what Ward makes for stepping in the ring.

Ward needs to pack it up in the court room, head to the gym and start training for a serious fight. His team need to get together 2 or 3 big names and give Ward a big chance to prove he deserves to be one of the most highly paid athletes in the world.

The_King_AJ says:

You are clueless. But that is okay. I wouldn't expect anything more. SOG Ward has made more money than 90 percent of the fighters who have ever been on PPV. Even the K-bro/docs have pocket more money than 99 percent of those fighters who have been on PPV. Get a clue! Making big bucks and being a BIG star on PPV have many variables that you will never understand.

PPV is not the outlet for defining boxing riches. Not being on there, and making all that dough, just shows you how powerful that SOG Ward is. Just as studying is not the outlet for defining how well you will do in college and life.

Most none Asians study their arses off and still make low grade. Where as our tiger/chess culture give us an edge from being exposed to proactive learning and critical thinking from babyhood.

Just go ahead and do what you do in tons, and you will never match the apparent innate geniuses who do it in a few. I'm no Nostradamus, but I can see that you are headed for a ton of spills of disappointments because of your arrogance and assumptions.

I'm out! Holla!



I don't know what to say, you're not really talking boxing anymore, you're just being a rambling like a half drunk butthurt and dare I say arrogant and making quick false assumptions about me.

With regards to Ward, that's only because he has been fighting today rather than in the past where paychecks were smaller. Ward also had the benefit of having very popular, exciting opponents like Kessler and Froch. So it's not really accurate or truly representative of Ward's drawing power to make those statements. The fact we have today is that, for an American who is at the top of his craft and fought entertaining very good fighters, we should not be where he is now. Ward is a man of many things, an 'apparent innate genius' where managing the business side of his career is not among them.

Some great back and forth on this thread guys keep it up, making for very good reading.
Just to spice things up a little.. I know that fighters don't always fight for money. Yes boxing is a job, and a boxer expects his pay. But the DREAM is to become world champion. Almost every fighter who laces his gloves up for the first time when he is still knee high dreams of being world champ, myself included. To say all that a boxer gets in the ring for is money is a very strange angle to take.
Before the fame, ladies and millions comes glory. You can ask any real champion and they will tell you that. Whether it's the glory of being your local champion, area titlist or world champ, glory is worth more than gold, even to guys who grew up without two pennies to rub together.
A fighter reaches a stage in their career when they mature, and they start to think about life after boxing. You can't find the same glory in life after so you need to make sure your bank balance is healthy by the time you hang them up. Just because you're looking to secure your future (like every other hard working person on the face of the planet) doesn't mean that's all your in it for.
On the topic of Ward. D2 said it in another post well and Shadow mentioned it too on this thread. There are a ton of legitimate fights that can be made so long as Ward wants them to be made. He is sticking to his principles and beliefs which is admirable, but it's having a knock on effect on the memory of the boxing public... which we all know is worse than that of a goldfish. Ward is getting paid. Believe it. He get's paid 7 figures for fights. How much did those two heavyweights get for their scrap for the WBC? Not even close to what Ward makes for stepping in the ring.
Ward needs to pack it up in the court room, head to the gym and start training for a serious fight. His team need to get together 2 or 3 big names and give Ward a big chance to prove he deserves to be one of the most highly paid athletes in the world.


Well said on the topic of motives for boxing. A call to authencity in self, please, rather than money being such a big personal issue that it taints the deeper, real spiritual yearnings in life.

I know Ward is on 7 figures, but I think the point is that it should be much higher at this point, and quite frankly I have no interest in fighters who are being 'Andre Ward' about their career. There are dudes that make 7 figures who are no way near the talent level of Ward, who haven't been in the ring with the opposition Ward has been in with.

I'm not saying he's not capable. He is, he just requires a fundamental level change in his attitude and take on guys like Chavez Jr, Golovkin, Groves if Groves beats Froch, for the £. I would have said it's ok that Ward isn't fighting Kovalev, but the fact is, he's not getting the fight with Chavez Jr made, so he's just standing idle.
Golovkin is actually in a different boat to Ward, Golovkin is naturally small at 168lbs which is ok, Golovkin doesn't mind, whereas Ward would be able to fill out ok at 175lbs (especially considering this is the guy who wants to fight at heavyweight) but Ward takes some issue to the fact hat he's going to be the man moving up (it's obvious). Ward has already fought the best at his weight class, whereas the best in the division are outright claiming they're going to be ducking Golovkin. Martinez, Froch (and Quillin is just a BS'er, he had a tough time and was losing to Rosado, you can see why it's clear he doesn't want to fight Golovkin, Quillin is not a true world champion but he doesn't want to lose that title). Groves I'm sure will be willing to fight him, that's one reason why I want Groves to win vs Froch.

Make me a fan, Ward.

Radam G says:

I don't know what to say, you're not really talking boxing anymore, you're just being a rambling like a half drunk butthurt and dare I say arrogant and making quick false assumptions about me.

With regards to Ward, that's only because he has been fighting today rather than in the past where paychecks were smaller. Ward also had the benefit of having very popular, exciting opponents like Kessler and Froch. So it's not really accurate or truly representative of Ward's drawing power to make those statements. The fact we have today is that, for an American who is at the top of his craft and fought entertaining very good fighters, we should not be where he is now. Ward is a man of many things, an 'apparent innate genius' where managing the business side of his career is not among them.



Well said on the topic of motives for boxing. A call to authencity in self, please, rather than money being such a big personal issue that it taints the deeper, real spiritual yearnings in life.

I know Ward is on 7 figures, but I think the point is that it should be much higher at this point, and quite frankly I have no interest in fighters who are being 'Andre Ward' about their career. There are dudes that make 7 figures who are no way near the talent level of Ward, who haven't been in the ring with the opposition Ward has been in with.

I'm not saying he's not capable. He is, he just requires a fundamental level change in his attitude and take on guys like Chavez Jr, Golovkin, Groves if Groves beats Froch, for the £. I would have said it's ok that Ward isn't fighting Kovalev, but the fact is, he's not getting the fight with Chavez Jr made, so he's just standing idle.
Golovkin is actually in a different boat to Ward, Golovkin is naturally small at 168lbs which is ok, Golovkin doesn't mind, whereas Ward would be able to fill out ok at 175lbs (especially considering this is the guy who wants to fight at heavyweight) but Ward takes some issue to the fact hat he's going to be the man moving up (it's obvious). Ward has already fought the best at his weight class, whereas the best in the division are outright claiming they're going to be ducking Golovkin. Martinez, Froch (and Quillin is just a BS'er, he had a tough time and was losing to Rosado, you can see why it's clear he doesn't want to fight Golovkin, Quillin is not a true world champion but he doesn't want to lose that title). Groves I'm sure will be willing to fight him, that's one reason why I want Groves to win vs Froch.

Make me a fan, Ward.
You got jokes, The_****_AJ. Trust me! You are the butthurt here. Hehe! Holla at what The Shadow noted to you. You have a lot to learn. Faking it will never get you to making it. Many before you have gone that route. And you can see their graves at cyber space's boothill. You are a thrill. Haha! Keep us laughing. Holla!

dino da vinci says:

Radammmmm? Play nice!

Don't mind Radam, he just gets a little crazy at times when he doesn't take his meds. And Radam remember, two capsules in the morning when you wake up and one right before bed.

Radam G says:

Radammmmm? Play nice!

Don't mind Radam, he just gets a little crazy at times when he doesn't take his meds. And Radam remember, two capsules in the morning when you wake up and one right before bed.


Hehehe! Oop$! $o that i$ it! Not two cap$ule$ right before bed. And one right after I wake up.

Danggit! Not Da Manila, a chilla, a thrilla, a blood spilla, without anybody being a gorilla ICE? Just play nice!

Okay! I will take your advice. Haha! Holla!

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