The Shadow of Pacquiao Looms Over Marquez

BY Ron Borges ON October 10, 2013
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Bradley Marquez final PC 131009 008a f0b52LAS VEGAS – If you fight anywhere between 140 and 154 pounds, the long shadows of two men hang over you: those of Floyd Mayweather, Jr. and Manny Pacquiao.

This is true no matter who you are or where you go.

That was never more evident than it was Wednesday morning at the Wynn Resort Casino when Juan Manuel Marquez, who Saturday night will try to become the first Mexican-born fighter to win world titles in five separate weight classes, spent more time talking about Pacquiao than he did about Timothy Bradley.

Bradley is the reigning WBO welterweight champion and the man the 40-year-old Marquez will challenge 10 months after knocking Pacquiao cold with one crushing right hand to the face in the fourth of what has become more a passion play than a rivalry. One might think that would at least for a time end further debate over fighting Pacquiao, but three controversial decisions (draw, split decision loss, majority decision loss) and one substantive victory later everywhere Marquez walks, Pacquiao seems to be by his side.

That is true this week even with Pacquiao training 6000 miles away in the Philippines for a November fight with former WBA lightweight champion Brandon Rios and Marquez three days away from challenging Bradley for a shot at history. They are, it seems, forever joined and forever faced with the public’s insatiable demand for them to meet again.

“Everybody knows what happened the last three fights (with Manny),’’ Marquez said yesterday, implying he won them all, which is what many people felt but which was not borne out by the judges’ scorecards in two of those fights. “For Manny, the chapter is closed. Dec. 8 I felt a great victory. I want to keep that great feeling. I feel very focused on this fight (with Bradley). I answer the same yesterday and tomorrow.’’

In other words, enough about Pacquiao, at least for the moment. But if Marquez finds a way to dethrone Bradley (30-0, 12 KO) and make boxing history back in Mexico the first name that will arise will be that of Pacquiao. That assumes, of course, that Pacquiao defeats Rios in Macau next month as most expect he will do, unless the residue of Marquez’s one punch knockout has rusted his skills and dulled his mind.

Marquez (55-6-1, 40 KO; pictured listening during Wednesday presser in Chris Farina-Top Rank photo) understands this of course, just as he understands many felt his crowning moment came when Pacquiao lay face down on the canvas, his body unmoving for several minutes before he came to. Many felt that would be enough for Marquez, who is widely seen as one of the best Mexican fighters of all-time and perhaps the best of an era that also included Erik Morales and Marco Antonio Barrera.

Even his family thought he had reached the apex of a brilliant career after finally, emphatically, ending the debate raging between his supporters and Pacquiao’s over which man was the better. Although Pacquiao held a 2-0-1 edge on Marquez in the record books, many felt Marquez had won at least two of those fights, if not all three. Certainly in the 36 rounds they’d spent in a brutal embrace there was little to pick between them until that thunderous right hand came crashing unseen into the face of Pacquiao at a time when the latter felt he was only another punch or two himself from stopping the bloodied but unbowed Mexican.

“He was on the verge of getting knocked out but Pacquiao got overconfident,’’ Bradley said of Marquez. “He set Manny up. Pacquiao tried to rush in and end this whole controversial thing and he got caught. That shows me that if I hurt him I better not rush in on him. You got to say 100 per cent dialed in on him. You can never relax. That’s when it gets dangerous with Marquez.’’

That is a lesson harshly learned by Pacquaio and when it was delivered it seemed the perfect moment for Marquez to turn and walk away, leaving behind a brutal sport he had dominated for many years but paid a high price for. That is what defeating Pacquiao meant to the people closest to Marquez. It meant he had done enough.

That’s what it meant to them, but not to him.

“After that fight, my family thought it was over,’’ Marquez said. “Done. I didn’t feel that way. I didn’t see why I should retire. I know it’s almost over but I don’t feel 40. I feel like a young fighter. I want a few more fights.’’

The widely-held assumption is one of those will be a fifth fight with Pacquiao. It would be the biggest payday of his career and an opportunity to give to Pacquiao what he twice gave him after their first two encounters: an opportunity at redemption.

The difference is the last fight was the only one that ended definitively. With Pacquaio’s body lying unmoving on the canvas for several long minutes, there was no more debate over who the better man was. At least not on the night of Dec. 8, 2012 there wasn’t.

Armed with that knowledge, Marquez rejected an immediate rematch possibility with Pacquiao and opted instead to face a larger man in Bradley. The first two times he fought at the 147-pound limit he lost badly to Mayweather and debatably to Pacquiao in their third confrontation so some wondered why not opt for a more lucrative third fight with Pacquiao.

“When we sat down together in Mexico I thought he agreed to that fight,’’ promoter Bob Arum recalled. “We were drinking tequila at the time but I’m sure he agreed to it. And then he wanted to do something else.’’

Whatever the validity of that, Saturday night Juan Manuel Marquez will be trying to make history fully understanding that lurking in the shadows is the history of his past waiting for one more confrontation with him.

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Comment on this article

Carmine Cas says:

I think Marquez should give him a rematch, even he did get what he wanted and he arguably won the previous bouts and put an exclamation point on it with the last fight. But big money for the both of them

The Shadow says:

Marquez for one doesn't follow the money. He's a pride fighter. Which is bizarre and paradoxical since he's an accountant.

Case in point: He turned down nice moolah (a high six-figure purse; $750,000 I believe it was) for a Manny rematch because he felt "insulted." Instead, he took on Chris John in Indonesia (facepalm) for about $30,000.

Same thing now. I'm quite sure he wants to rub it in their faces that they focked with him for years before they gave him a rematch. Even though he stood to make at least $15m vs. Manny for the pentalogy, he settled for Bradley because he in his heart believes that belt belongs to him.

He has pride like a mofo. Real machismo. But I guess that what makes him what he is.

Imagine Floyd Mayweather with that type of reckless pride. We would probably have seen him run to press conferences calling out Carl Froch.

Carmine Cas says:

Lol excellent point Shadow, thanks for the info

Radam G says:

Marquez is the BIGGEST fraud of prizefighting of all times. He is a going-the-easy-route pride-fighting BYYYTCHHH! As "Cruising" Chris John kicked his arse, and revealed him for peanut thousands of bucks, Bambi Bradley is going to do the same to the metamorphosed full-of-dat-syet Hulkquez for peanut millions of bucks.

Marquez got his hinny BEAT in the first bout against Da Manny. The scoring of a corrupted Sin City judge -- with options -- scored the bout an Asian-hater draw.

History is a karmic bytch who loves repeating her bad arse. Bambi Bradley is going to clearly torch Hulkquez's juiced-and-injected-up arse. And it is up to the Sin City crooks to score it correctly for the winner - Bradley. But I'm betting BIG that the crooks will call it a majority- decision draw. Holla!

kidcanvas says:

he got a shot in but he was on his way out himself. that said youd think hed want another fight to erase that whupping he was getting till the punch

Carmine Cas says:

We'll see what Bradley brings to the fight, if Marquez isn't "Hulkquez" this fight his speed will be there to negate Bradley's

Bernie Campbell says:

I presume have the same politics! Es Verdad! Ones a stiff? One speaks it like it is!

Matthew says:

Marquez is a sure-fire hall of famer, and I respect him immensely. However, he should have stopped complaining about getting "robbed" against Pacquiao a long time ago. If one judge scores the first round of the first Pacquiao-Marquez fight 10-6 (as it should have been scored, since Marquez was knocked down three times) the fight would not have been a draw. I actually scored each of the first three fights narrowly in favor of Pacquiao. If anything, you could make the most compelling case for Marquez winning the third fight, even though I scored that one for Pacquiao as well. I believe Marquez lost his right to complain by getting knocked down four times. In any event, he won fight four convincingly, and he deserves to be praised for it. Just stop all the bellyaching and focus on who is in front of you on Saturday night, not someone who is 6,000 miles away.

Radam G says:

Ditto, Matthew! But flop that 6 into a 9. We are roughly 9,000 mile away -- in the Pilipinas's southern island of Mindanao -- from that whining cry-baby great. And watch! He, Marquez, in the transformation of Hulkquez, is going to complain about bowling-ball-headed Bradley ramming and slamming him right to the Hulkquez's mug and hair plugs and beating him.

Marquez didn't want to be tested for those illegal roids and PEDs in his arse by the super-Doctor Maggie Goodman-led VADA. So Marquez should just shut da double fudge UP! Because he knows that he is on da CHEAT. And he doesn't like the HEAT.

Bradley has let it go. Da Manny did to. So Hulkquez should just take his latest arse thrashing like a roids-and-PEDs-filled Aztec Warrior CHEAT that he is, and STFU! Holla!

The Shadow says:

Marquez is a sure-fire hall of famer, and I respect him immensely. However, he should have stopped complaining about getting "robbed" against Pacquiao a long time ago. If one judge scores the first round of the first Pacquiao-Marquez fight 10-6 (as it should have been scored, since Marquez was knocked down three times) the fight would not have been a draw. I actually scored each of the first three fights narrowly in favor of Pacquiao. If anything, you could make the most compelling case for Marquez winning the third fight, even though I scored that one for Pacquiao as well. I believe Marquez lost his right to complain by getting knocked down four times. In any event, he won fight four convincingly, and he deserves to be praised for it. Just stop all the bellyaching and focus on who is in front of you on Saturday night, not someone who is 6,000 miles away.


Matt, actually, the whole wrong scoring in that fight is a myth. According to Harold Lederman, judges rarely score a round 10-6 so 10-7 wasn't a mistake as much as it was a judge's judgment call.

Matthew says:

It's not a myth. You should be docked a point for each knockdown. Since Marquez was knocked down three times, the round should have been scored 10-6. That is how the Ten Point Must System works. It was a poor effort by the judge, however, the rivalry probably wouldn't have occurred without it.

The Shadow says:

It's not a myth. You should be docked a point for each knockdown. Since Marquez was knocked down three times, the round should have been scored 10-6. That is how the Ten Point Must System works. It was a poor effort by the judge, however, the rivalry probably wouldn't have occurred without it.


Well why don't you just look at this video -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cW7oj7QosjA -- and scroll to 54:05 and hear for yourself?

"Most judges will not go below 10-7."

I feel compelled to quote Tyson post-Bruno.

amayseng says:

[QUOTE=Matthew;38463]It's not a myth. You should be docked a point for each knockdown. Since Marquez was knocked down three times, the round should have been scored 10-6. That is how the Ten Point Must System works. It was a poor effort by the judge, however, the rivalry probably wouldn't have occurred without it.[/QUOTE]

i think they should dock a point for each knockdown, one should be rewarded properly for such an accomplishment and since the scoring system is mathematics not counting each knockdown or having the choice to count some but not all defeats the concept and validity of the point system, mathematically...no?

The Shadow says:

[QUOTE=amayseng;38467]i think they should dock a point for each knockdown, one should be rewarded properly for such an accomplishment and since the scoring system is mathematics not counting each knockdown or having the choice to count some but not all defeats the concept and validity of the point system, mathematically...no?[/QUOTE]

Judges are at liberty to score extra points in rounds without knockdowns also. I just pointed out what one of the most respected and most experienced judges are saying about the topic.

I'm more inclined to believe what Lederman said was the reason for the 10-7 scorecard than a judge not being able to count knockdowns.

Wouldn't you agree?

The Shadow says:

It's also interesting to note that in the Pacquiao-Mosley fight, officially, there was a knockdown ruled for Shane Mosley, yet no one scored the round 10-8 for Mosley -- they didn't even score it 10-9 for Mosley!

Bogus call or not (referee's mistake), all three scored the round 10-9 in favor of Pacquiao, which is essentially a three-point swing that "rightfully" should've went to Mosley.

But the judges overruled it, as they should. I'm not a judge so I don't know the ins and outs but clearly they have the discretion to make judgment calls.

That's why I referenced Harold Lederman, one of the most esteemed judges around.

Matthew says:

You are correct in what Lederman said, however, that doesn't mean the judge didn't botch it. Professional boxing judges mess up all the time, as you can see by the questionable scorecards that are often turned in (Gale Van Hoy and C.J. Ross, anyone?). What Lederman said about judges rarely going below 10-7 may be true, but you notice that he actually scored that round 10-6. That's because he's the best and most consistent judge I have seen in my 30+ years of being a boxing fan. If five knockdowns were scored, then the fighter scoring the knockdowns should get credit for every single one. Simply put, in my opinion and the opinions of many others, this judge screwed up.

The Shadow says:

[QUOTE=Matthew;38472]You are correct in what Lederman said, however, that doesn't mean the judge didn't botch it. Professional boxing judges mess up all the time, as you can see by the questionable scorecards that are often turned in (Gale Van Hoy and C.J. Ross, anyone?). What Lederman said about judges rarely going below 10-7 may be true, but you notice that he actually scored that round 10-6. That's because he's the best and most consistent judge I have seen in my 30+ years of being a boxing fan. If five knockdowns were scored, then the fighter scoring the knockdowns should get credit for every single one. Simply put, in my opinion and the opinions of many others, this judge screwed up.[/QUOTE]

Again, I will refer to Lederman: "Most judges will not go below 10-7."

OMFG!!!!! Did you guys see what Swizz Bankz just announced??????

On PPV:

Broner-Maidana for WBA welterweight championship.

Victor Ortiz vs. Carlos Molina for IBF 154 title.

Keith Thurman vs. Soto-Karass

Angulo vs. Some Guy.

That's a SICK card.

The Shadow says:

PLUS!!! For Dec. 7 at Barclays:

Paulie vs. Zab for Brooklyn supremacy. In the co-feature (wait for it) .......

......

Austin Trout vs. Erislandy Lara.

That's some GOOD SH*T!

Matthew says:

It looks like a good card, but what in the hell has Victor Ortiz done to merit a title shot? He got his jaw busted and lost to Josesito Lopez over a year ago, and that gets him a title shot? Absurd.

The Shadow says:

[QUOTE=Matthew;38477]It looks like a good card, but what in the hell has Victor Ortiz done to merit a title shot? He got his jaw busted and lost to Josesito Lopez over a year ago, and that gets him a title shot? Absurd.[/QUOTE]

Read the thread I just started yesterday. That should tell you. It's show business, baby! And Ortiz is a STAR!

Matthew says:

If Ortiz is a star, then the requirements for stardom have seriously become diluted. Yeah, he's a good looking kid and he has a nice smile, although he comes across to me as somewhat phony. He has nothing intelligent or interesting to say. He has absolutely no presence whatsoever. While he showed grit in the Berto fight, he has been a shrinking violet in coming up short against Maidana, Mayweather, and Lopez. That being said, he's usually in a good fight (except against Nate Campbell). He should be fighting on ESPN, not as a pay-per-view attraction.

The Shadow says:

[QUOTE=Matthew;38479]If Ortiz is a star, then the requirements for stardom have seriously become diluted. Yeah, he's a good looking kid and he has a nice smile, although he comes across to me as somewhat phony. He has nothing intelligent or interesting to say. He has absolutely no presence whatsoever. While he showed grit in the Berto fight, he has been a shrinking violet in coming up short against Maidana, Mayweather, and Lopez. That being said, he's usually in a good fight (except against Nate Campbell). He should be fighting on ESPN, not as a pay-per-view attraction.[/QUOTE]

Hollywood star! If he was a wrestler, he'd be a Superstar.

Hey check out this video: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZfDRFa_NGw

Carmine Cas says:

That's a good card, Ortiz did not earn the shot but as Shadow pointed out this is show biz and he has the marketability behind him to get people to buy. Showtime trying to get the last laugh

amayseng says:

that is a solid card but not PPV worthy. broner looked average against paulie, some had a draw even.
and ortiz although intriguing, could be disqualified in a minute..

solid card, but not ppv worthy in the amayseng household...

The Shadow says:

It's not a million + PPV card by any stretch of the imagination. But I don't think they're pretending it to be that.

I think this could be GBP's version of something like UFC 150 or one of WWE's smaller monthly PPVs -- cards that do in the 200,000 buys neighborhood but still end up very profitable.

It has four good bouts that could be on regular Showtime with some good names and some action fights. I kinda like it.

brownsugar says:

[QUOTE=The Shadow;38481]And don't forget: Hollywood star! If he was a wrestler, he'd be a Superstar. He's got the complexion to make the connection.

He speaks Spanish, he's an exciting fighter, former world champ, he's in movies, he's been in there with Mayweather, AND he appeals to the gays in a very commercial way!

Why do you think Crimson Al just snatched him up?

Hey check out this video: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZfDRFa_NGw[/QUOTE]

C'mon Shadow...

appeals to gays...hilarious...and I do remember the underwear commerciald

The Shadow says:

[QUOTE=brownsugar;38501]C'mon Shadow...

appeals to gays...hilarious...and I do remember the underwear commerciald[/QUOTE]

Oh, snap! LOL I didn't even realize the double entendre I fired off there. The gay commercial LOL. But yeah, that's the one! Hahahaha!

urone2 says:

We talk about pride how about not wanting to have that feeling of being cheated after you feel you have won, when you re-watch the fight and know you won but the victory still went to the other guy. Marquez knew in this last fight he had to have KO to win, he stopped trying to out box Pacquioa and went for the KO and it paid off. If Marquez goes back in the ring beat Pacquioa by out boxing him as he has(in my opinion) in the past, and get a bad decision then he has that same old feeling of being cheated back again. If the Fights between these two had be judged fairly and not for the more popular fighter we would see fight 5 maybe even six by now, but going into a fight knowing you are fighting the judges as well is all bad.

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