"Floyd and Manny Have Passed Their Expiration Date"

BY Frank Lotierzo ON September 19, 2012
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ChavezJrMatinez DerrickHogan 17 The best, Martinez and Chavez Jr., fought the best on this night, Sept. 15, and on the weekend before, when Ward beat Dawson. Yet we are going on three years of being unable to get Mayweather and Pacquiao to get a deal done. How much of the boxing public is past the point of caring? (Hogan)

On Saturday night September 8th, the best Super-middleweight in the world, Andre Ward 26-0 (14), defended his WBA/WBC Super middleweight title against WBC light heavyweight title holder Chad Dawson 31-2 (17), the perceived best light heavyweight fighter-boxer in the sport. Both Ward and Dawson are close to or at their physical prime.

Dawson, the 175 pound fighter, proposed the idea of dropping down to 168 to challenge for Ward's titles. Ward willingly obliged and for a change the boxing world witnessed two young outstanding fighters with a lot to lose face each other in a career defining bout. Both were endlessly lauded for taking that risk and challenge.

Although the fight was one-sided after the second round in Ward's favor via his 10th round stoppage, it's hard to picture any other fighter out there weighing between 168-175 pounds handling Dawson as completely and thoroughly as Ward did. Now Ward is the new darling of boxing and Dawson still has his light heavyweight belt and can rebound from the disappointing defeat to Ward.

This past Saturday night September 15th, the two best (aside from Gennady Golovkin) and highest profile middleweights in the world, Sergio Martinez 50-2-2 (28) and Julio Cesar Chavez Jr 46-1-1 (32) met in a much anticipated showdown. And like Ward-Dawson, the Martinez-Chavez clash was one-sided (in favor of Martinez via unanimous decision). Also like Ward-Dawson, Martinez-Chavez was a bout between two fighters who appeared to be peaking and half of the drama despite the fight being one sided was seeing the best of the best share the same ring.

Granted the fights turned out to be borderline mismatches. But do you really care when the best fighters in the respective same divisions are confronting each other? Ward emerged as perhaps the most complete fighter in professional boxing and Martinez proved that he is the man in the middleweight division until he is defeated. Sure, skeptics might say Dawson was weakened by draining down to 168 and Chavez is more tough than good and was tailor made for Martinez stylistically. The point is, going into the two bouts a terrific case was framed by all the supposed experts that Ward and Dawson never faced an opponent as good the other and ditto for Martinez and Chavez.

Looking back it wasn't all that hard to get Ward and Dawson and Martinez and Chavez into the ring, was it? Yet there's a looming match up out there that has been brewing for over three years and yet the two combatants seem to act as if the other doesn't even exist. Yes, I'm talking about the two best fighters in one of boxing's glamor divisions, welterweights Floyd Mayweather and Manny Pacquiao.

After seeing Ward-Dawson and Martinez-Chavez put it on the line for about 1/15th of what Floyd and Manny will gross when they meet, don't they look really small now for stringing the public along. They do in my eyes and they have long before September 8th and 15th. It's a joke that neither Mayweather or Pacquiao haven't pushed harder to make the match between them by now. And what's really pathetic is they're still probably gonna fight and because of the names Mayweather and Pacquiao, every boxing fan on the planet will do everything in their power to make sure they are there to see it.

It's sad that we saw Ward-Dawson and Martinez-Chavez before we did Mayweather-Pacquiao, who should've fought in the late Spring of 2010. I hope most fans are seeing it the way I do -- and that is Ward is on the verge of passing Mayweather as boxing's most complete fighter and Martinez looked better in his last outing than Pacquiao did in his.

I could care less how much fighters are paid and believe they deserve all they can get. However, when one thinks about the money that Floyd and Manny can make if they fight, and the fact that they still can't agree to face each other in a career defining bout, it would be sweet justice if the fight ended up being a financial bust when it does take place because boxing fans are tired of being gouged and seen as a tool. Of course we know that won't be the case.

When all is said and done, boxing may be more star driven, but it's fights between the best of the best that really make it drama filled and compelling. The four fighters mentioned above fought every fighter who was a supposed threat to them and then faced each other. Whereas Mayweather has virtually faced every fighter who was a threat to him since moving up to welterweight when they were past their prime, and no, Zab Judah wasn't seen as anything more than a stern challenge and no one thought he'd beat Mayweather. Keep it close for a while, sure, but not win the fight.

As for Pacquiao, he hasn't looked good in his last three fights and hasn't won by stoppage in five fights. Some believe he is 0-2 in his last two bouts against Juan Manuel Marquez and Timothy Bradley, or at best 1-1. Either way, he's on the decline both emotionally and physically.

Yet the boxing world is still holding it's breath to see Mayweather-Pacquiao. And just like the World in which we occupy - the boxing World is upside down too. I wonder if matches like Ward-Dawson and Martinez-Chavez (and a lot of the fights that Golden Boy put together underneath Alvarez-Lopez) will push Mayweather-Pacquiao out of the limelight once and for all. Boxing should move on because Floyd and Manny have passed their expiration date.

Frank Lotierzo can be contacted at GlovedFist@Gmail.com

Comment on this article

gibola says:

Spot on - there are no excuses for Pac v PBF not happening. In 1981 Leonard and Hearns had a million reasons to avoid each other, they could only lose to each other, you can always say the fight could get bigger if you wait, it's just that if you wait too long somebody gets beat or the audience moves on. They met when they should have met and the clash is remembered forever. Great fighters accept the greatest challenges. Sadly everyone will remember that when the fight should have happened, when it would have meant the most to boxing and their legacies, Pac/PBF failed to deliver. If it happens in the next year it'll be great but Pacman is fading fast and PBF will win comfortably and it won't matter a damn because the real question is who would have won four years ago.
Ultimate take-any-fight warrior in the game today? - Carl Froch, fights anybody, home or away.

puncher says:

I will pit Martinez vs Ward to see who is the best of the best. It will be a very interesting matchup. I don't think it will bother Martinez because he is always fighting bigger boxers anyway.

MisterLee says:

I"m done with that fight. I feel that fight expired in 2011. You know since their negotiations in December 2009 (when Floyd opted out with the whole "take the test!" bullsh*t), they could have fought 4 times by now and grossing approx. $200 million or more for four fights. That is frustrating, but boxing is like life: it goes on, and we get other fights and better fights. I'm glad Froch exposed the overhyped Bute (who many thought could beat Ward! ha.). DeMarco Broner will be an exciting fight, Alvarado Rios, AND Donaire vs. Nishioka... two of the best in their division... maybe Mares Moreno will fight the winner. Exciting stuff! I don't care to watch or follow or even watch teh 24/7 of Marquez Pacquiao b/c it's all been before over and over again. Heck, I even think this version of COtto can now beat this version of Pacquiao. There's not way Pacquiao could keep the pace he did in the November of 2009 in this day and age. Holler!

deepwater says:

I agree. I rather watch martinez vs canelo at 154 or martinez vs cotto at 154. not 160. 160 wont be a good fight. forget ward martinez because sergio is too small for 168 and ward too big for 160. I rather watch marinez vs chavez 2 at dallas stadium. martinez beat chavez but he couldnt make him quit or knock him out.chavez showed courage by not quiting like 80% of other boxers would have done. chavez proved he has the power and size to knock sergio out its just a matter of making adjustments and a better game plan. roach is slipping as a trainer. it was a one sided fight but it was exciting and you never know what can happen untl the last bell rings. chavez maritnez 2 and cotto vs canelo at 154.

The Voicebox says:

Martinez-Ward is a dangerous fight for both involved, at least on paper. I think Martinez has already proven he can handle any weight disparity that's put in front of him and Ward has the skills to compete with most heavyweights. Ward would have a definite edge in defensive skills and fundamentals while Martinez should have at least a slight advantage in speed and offense. Stylistically, it would be a high-pace chess match that would eventually become a brawl as both men gutted it out. A coin toss, and a potentially great match up.

Mikael says:

I want to see:

Martinez vs Cotto, Martinez vs Alvarez or Cotto vs Alvarez
Chavez vs any 168 champion.
Pacquiao vs Mayweather
Bradley vs Maidana

Radam G says:

And that's the way the game flows. History is littered with Jack Dempsey-Harry Wills, Sugar Ray Robinson-Charley Burley, Sonny "Night Train" Liston-"Smokin'" Joe Frazier and Floyd Mayweather-Manny "PacMan" Pacquiao types of fights that were never made.

Let it GO! And move on! "It looks like another LUV TKO!"

But in my humble opinion, Dempsey would've beat Wills, Burley would've beat Robinson, Liston would've KAYOED Frazier -- EARLY! And Da Manny would've kayoed Mayweather -- EARLY!

Yall know me! I'm down with O-P-P! And I will always call a space a space and won't just try to hide an optical illusion in da shade. Holla!

ultimoshogun says:

Yeah, this fight for me is like, meh, if it happens it happens. Mostly because Pac appears to have declined in his last few fights. The only way i'll get excited and demand it again is if Pac annihilates Marquez.

dino da vinci says:

Spot on - there are no excuses for Pac v PBF not happening. In 1981 Leonard and Hearns had a million reasons to avoid each other, they could only lose to each other, you can always say the fight could get bigger if you wait, it's just that if you wait too long somebody gets beat or the audience moves on. They met when they should have met and the clash is remembered forever. Great fighters accept the greatest challenges. Sadly everyone will remember that when the fight should have happened, when it would have meant the most to boxing and their legacies, Pac/PBF failed to deliver. If it happens in the next year it'll be great but Pacman is fading fast and PBF will win comfortably and it won't matter a damn because the real question is who would have won four years ago.
Ultimate take-any-fight warrior in the game today? - Carl Froch, fights anybody, home or away.


Carl Froch has definitely won me over. A throwback to my favorite era.

dino da vinci says:

I"m done with that fight. I feel that fight expired in 2011. You know since their negotiations in December 2009 (when Floyd opted out with the whole "take the test!" bullsh*t), they could have fought 4 times by now and grossing approx. $200 million or more for four fights. That is frustrating, but boxing is like life: it goes on, and we get other fights and better fights. I'm glad Froch exposed the overhyped Bute (who many thought could beat Ward! ha.). DeMarco Broner will be an exciting fight, Alvarado Rios, AND Donaire vs. Nishioka... two of the best in their division... maybe Mares Moreno will fight the winner. Exciting stuff! I don't care to watch or follow or even watch teh 24/7 of Marquez Pacquiao b/c it's all been before over and over again. Heck, I even think this version of COtto can now beat this version of Pacquiao. There's not way Pacquiao could keep the pace he did in the November of 2009 in this day and age. Holler!



MisterLee, I was just talking to one of my trainers and used the "could of fought four times by now", walk upstairs and come in to the forum and see we're in complete agreement.

the Roast says:

Gibola and MisterLee, very well said. It coulda been great but now it's too late.

gibola says:

The fights I want to see aren't necessarily about P4P rankings etc, they are probably at the tier below and they are a bit Brit-heavy (forgive me) but they are the ones that I would relish most:
Marco Huck v David Haye v Alexander Povetkin (perm any two from three and you have a cracking matchup).
Tyson Fury v David Price - Price's skill and power against Fury's determination and ruggedness.
Nathan Cleverly v Tavouris Cloud - would be a thrill-a-minute punchathon.
Amir Khan v Danny Garcia 2 - can Khan outbox him or will his chin give out again?
Carl Froch v Mikkel Kessler 2 - first was an underrated classic but who has improved and who has gone back?
Kell Brook v Andre Berto - would be explosive and any result is possible.
Victor Ortiz v Marcos Maidana 2 - see above.
Canelo Alvarez v Sergio Martinez at 154 - has to happen now, is Canelo ready?
JC Chavez Jr v Matthew Macklin - results at the weekend set-up a thrilling slugfest to earn the right for a crack at Sergio.
Nobody making comebacks, nobody fighting guys who are too big or too small, no defensive genius' or defensive southpaws, just explosive, unpredictable matchups between guys who come to fight. There are a load more if I go into the feathers and bantams but there's not time. If I could pick only one I'd go for Haye v Huck! Not P4P but what a fight that would be!!

puncher says:

The fights I want to see aren't necessarily about P4P rankings etc, they are probably at the tier below and they are a bit Brit-heavy (forgive me) but they are the ones that I would relish most:
Marco Huck v David Haye v Alexander Povetkin (perm any two from three and you have a cracking matchup).
Tyson Fury v David Price - Price's skill and power against Fury's determination and ruggedness.
Nathan Cleverly v Tavouris Cloud - would be a thrill-a-minute punchathon.
Amir Khan v Danny Garcia 2 - can Khan outbox him or will his chin give out again?
Carl Froch v Mikkel Kessler 2 - first was an underrated classic but who has improved and who has gone back?
Kell Brook v Andre Berto - would be explosive and any result is possible.
Victor Ortiz v Marcos Maidana 2 - see above.
Canelo Alvarez v Sergio Martinez at 154 - has to happen now, is Canelo ready?
JC Chavez Jr v Matthew Macklin - results at the weekend set-up a thrilling slugfest to earn the right for a crack at Sergio.
Nobody making comebacks, nobody fighting guys who are too big or too small, no defensive genius' or defensive southpaws, just explosive, unpredictable matchups between guys who come to fight. There are a load more if I go into the feathers and bantams but there's not time. If I could pick only one I'd go for Haye v Huck! Not P4P but what a fight that would be!!


Very good list. I will put Martinez vs Cotto or Martinez vs Ward.

MisterLee says:

Cheers Dino!

My wishlist goes from 140-154 or 135 or 122:

Alexander, Lopez, Garcia, Matthysse, Bradley, Maidana, Peterson, Berto, Bailey mix it up

Canelo, Cotto, Mayweather, Kirkland, Molina, Trout, Angulo, GGG mix it up

DeMarco, Broner, Gesta, Abril, Acosta, Burns, Linares & others mix it up

Rigo, Mares, Moreno, Nishioka, Donaire mix it up OR move up to 126 and mix it up
with Ponce De Leon, Gonzalez, Garcia, Hasegawa, Russell, Del Vale, Nguyen...

A guy can only hope!

MisterLee says:

Add Ortiz, Khan, & Guerrero in the mix. Fun stuff!

Matthew says:

Whitaker-Chavez has just as many, if not more, potential negotiating obstacles as Mayweather-Pacquiao, and that fight got done. Bear in mind that Whitaker was an HBO fighter promoted by Main Events, while Chavez was a Showtime fighter promoted by Don King. Whitaker wanted that fight so badly that he let King be the lead promoter, agreed to fight in Texas, and agreed to Showtime as the network. That is the sign of a true champion that wants to measure himself against the best. Neither Pacquiao nor Mayweather can say the same.

Matthew says:

Whitaker-Chavez has just as many, if not more, potential negotiating obstacles as Mayweather-Pacquiao, and that fight got done. Bear in mind that Whitaker was an HBO fighter promoted by Main Events, while Chavez was a Showtime fighter promoted by Don King. Whitaker wanted that fight so badly that he let King be the lead promoter, agreed to fight in Texas, and agreed to Showtime as the network. That is the sign of a true champion that wants to measure himself against the best. Neither Pacquiao nor Mayweather can say the same.

brownsugar says:

Floyd may have to go back and do 26 more days in the "County". Apparently he made have violated a term of his probation by allegedly being involved in a verbal spat with another of his "Babies Mommas" (while removing, then later returning a gift he no doubt purchased in better times) At the rate of Floyds self destruction, it may take the divine intervention of a boxing loving diety to put the Floyd/Pac fight together. .

SouthPaul says:

IMO, This fight is only a few signatures and press conferences away from still being the highest grossing boxing event of all time. But, ego is a huge obstacle to overcome. Can Floyd overcome his or will it overcome him. I still like Floyd's chances but his ego is a live dog. This fight is only a few signatures and press conferences away from still being the highest grossing boxing event of all time.

ultimoshogun says:

Apparently Manny was on ESPN "First Take" a couple days ago and said he'd let Floyd have the bigger piece if the pie, and he's cool with taking the blood test even the day of the fight to make the fight happen...So there's really no reason the fight won't happen now....hopefully.

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