THE WOODSIES: The Year in Boxing 2011

BY The Sweet Science ON December 31, 2011
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WardFroch Bailey10There was no lockdown choice for Fighter of the Year. But Andre Ward deserves more credit than he gets, so we're happy that a solid role model and superior pugilist is getting the acclaim he has earned. (Hogan)

It wasn’t the best of years for boxing, it wasn’t the worst of years for the sport.

Try as I might to look on the bright side, which is the best way to look, because you can get caught up looking at the copious darkness which abounds in the sport and world at large, I find myself coming to the conclusion that the year in pugilism 2011 will quite likely be remembered as another year that the most logical, the most yearned-for, the most no-brainer of all no-brainer fights didn’t get made. 2011 was another year in which boxing fans didn’t get what they most wanted: a Floyd Mayweather-Manny Pacquiao clash.

Now, some good stuff happened, don’t get me wrong. Please don’t tell Andre Ward, my choice for Fighter of the Year, that this year was all about what didn’t happen. The 27 year-old Oakland resident got Ws over Arthur Abraham and Carl Froch while snagging top honors in the Super Six tournament, and elevated himself to a place where he can lay legitimate claim that he could well be No. 2 on the pound for pound list, behind Floyd Mayweather.

Manny Pacquiao, Sergio Martinez, Nonito Donaire and Juan Manuel Marquez would likely not agree to place SOG at No. 2, but Ward’s stellar pugilistic arsenal is world-class stuff. And it would be in any era; he is a thinking-man’s hitter, someone who can neutralize the best and brightest in the game, make them look ordinary as anything, and while a lack of power and lack of edge and darkside will perhaps keep him from becoming a PPV driver, Ward deserves plaudits galore for being an ace at his craft.

But back to what didn’t happen. I try mightily to keep focus as much as possible on what makes the game great. I firmly believe that the sport gives young men who would otherwise be headed to jail or an early demise a reason to exist. Boxing is a net positive to the world, overall, because countless men who might otherwise leave a wake of carnage and sadness in the outside world instead become people who inspire hope and pride in themselves, their family, their community, their nation. But the sport does so much to muddy that message.

It is unfathomable why the fight that cries out to be made, which would be the sport’s Super Bowl, which would gross each boxer something in the neighborhood of $50 million or so, and draw 3 million pay-per-view buys, and get the sport more mainstream ink than any bout since lord knows when, doesn’t get made. I won’t re-litigate the matter extensively, because we’ve all wasted too many inches and too much breath on this non-happening. We’ve speculated as to who deserves the most blame, Mayweather for allegedly ducking the fight, or Pacquiao for allegedly being afraid of stringent blood-testing, or Arum for allegedly being afraid to injure his cash cow. I say they all share culpability, and if 2012 passes and we again don’t get this match made, then I say we Occupy all of ‘em. In any other sport, sanity would prevail, differences would be ironed out, and the public would get what they want, and by the way, would pay a pretty penny for the privilege. Floyd, Manny, Bob, Al, HBO, please..book a suite at Camp David, and refuse to leave until you guys get ‘er done, until Mayweather-Pacquiao is made, because if much more time passes, the public might just lose their interest.

Now, let’s take a look back at what else transpired in the year, shall we?

JANUARY

We started off the year with a tabloid-y story. Kelly Pavlik was due to leave rehab for a booze problem. He came home, and we heard that he wanted to be mindful of his decisions and inclinations. We crossed our fingers he’d stay on course. Sadly, the year ended on a less hopeful note for the Youngstowner, as he was picked up for DUI on an ATV two weeks ago. We all hope he gets a handle on himself and even if he never fights again, finds a measure of peace and the strength of will to keep the cork in the bottle.

Mid month, we all soaked in the vibes of harmony, as we saw the two promoters of the era, Don King and Bob Arum, work together seamlessly to set the Miguel Cotto-Ricardo Mayorga bout (March 12). These two battled each other like Hagler-Hearns back in the day so it was something to see, the two old warhorses grooving together in NYC.

http://thesweetscience.com/news/articles/12126-now-best-buds-king-and-arum-it-wasnt-always-so

The fans were let down by the battle of junior welterweight young guns, as the Devon Alexander-Tim Bradley bout never really achieved liftoff. They tangled in Michigan on Jan. 29 and the ending was a particular downer, as Alexander indicated he was too pained to continue in the tenth, giving Bradley a TD10 victory. We all hoped that this wouldn’t be a harbinger for the year.

http://thesweetscience.com/news/articles/11952-bradley-wins-technical-decision-from-alexander-super-fight-was-so-so

FEBRUARY

Nonito Donaire moved himself into another echelon with his head-denting KO of Fernando Montiel on Feb. 19. The TKO2 win for the bantamweight-super bantam ace opened tons of eyes, as fight fans realized this is a bomber with a compelling personality who could well help carry the sport in the coming years.

You all heard that the rumor is Floyd Mayweather bet a cool million on the Pats to beat the Broncos two weeks ago? I guess “Money” didn’t heed my Feb. 25 call for him to ditch the gambling, that easy method of excitation of his pleasure centers, and concentrate on his ring work. http://thesweetscience.com/news/articles/12091-dear-floyd-ditch-the-gambling-nightlife-and-do-what-you-say-you-do-the-bestbox

Another young ‘un, Brandon Rios, showed himself to be a future star when he stopped Miguel Acosta in the tenth round on Feb. 26. This feat was made that much more impressive when we learned that he broke his right hand in round eight. Yes, it was nice as it always is to marvel at the toughness shown by the athletes we so admire in the sport which often tortures us with the ancillary idiocy offered up by the promoters and sanctioning bodies and such…

MARCH

Fight fans had high hopes when in early March we learned that another flirtation reached fruition, when Wladimir Klitschko and David Haye signed on to fight. They jawed like champs, but when it came time to brawl, both underperformed. The bright side? We didn’t have to pony up PPV dollars on July 2 to see it.

Zab Judah reinvigorated his career with a TKO7 win over Kaizer Mbuza on March 5. His crippling counter had everyone thinking he would finally put it all together. He had found God, and the serenity that would make him a total package in the ring, many thought. Later in the year, expectations were reset once again, as he reverted to form against Amir Khan.

The top dogs didn’t want to test themselves against Sergio Martinez in 2011, so the Argentine had to make do with second tier opposition. Sergei Dzinziruk gave a solid account of himself on March 12 against “Maravilla,” scoring a TKO8. We all hoped that Sergio, who became the most ducked man in the game in 2011, would score a megafight later in the year. Alas, he’s still waiting…

Miguel Cotto stayed relevant, with a TKO12 win on March 12 over Ricardo Mayorga, whose fake Twitter account gave us some most-hearty belly laughs of the year. We repeat our call for Mayorga to hire his impersonator to Tweet for him legit…

http://thesweetscience.com/news/articles/12185-cotto-gets-stoppage-in-round-12

We all got a reminder how much the heavyweight division stinks, when slovenly Odlanier Solis crumpled to the canvas in the first round of his fight with Vitali Klitschko on March 19. His knee gave out, a condition probably not helped by the fact that he carries an excess of fifty pounds or so on his frame when not fighting. Semi understandable for a keyboard tapper, not so much for a “world class” athlete…

The promoters gave us a week of mid-month entertainment, when Golden Boy stole Nonito Donaire from Top Rank. An arbitrator ruled that Donaire was still under contract to Arum at the end of the month, so Oscar De La Hoya looked for other ways to damage rival Arum. They sniped at each other in print, with Oscar taking to Twitter to zing the Bobfather.

The fight game lost several notables this year. Gil Clancy died on March 31, and we all lamented the exit of the Hall of Fame trainer and analyst. http://www.thesweetscience.com/news/articles/12311-qit-was-always-great-with-gil-q-homage-to-clancyborges

APRIL

We keyboard tappers like to do the tsk-tsk thing, and opine that the old warhorses should fade away, exit the game when we deem it appropriate. Much of the time, it can be argued we are right. But 34 year-old Erik Morales, seven years past his prime,  proved to the tsk-tskers he had something left when he gave Marcos Maidana all he could handle on April 9. The Mexi-legend lost (MD10) but won another pile of respect for his toughness. We tappers like to be wrong, sometimes.

Some of us wondered if maybe we’d overrated Amir Khan. The Brit  looked only OK against Paul McCloskey in England on April 16. He revived against Zab Judah in July, and then closed out the year with a decision loss to Lamont Peterson. Most expected Khan to elevate in 2011 to the tippy top, but it turns out the year ends with him being in a crossroads place. Is he a future star, has he plateaued? We shall see…

The Andre Berto-Victor Ortiz fight on April 16 in Connecticut made everyone’s top 5 fights of the year list. Both men tasted the canvas, and thrilled the crowd with their exchanges and stubbornness. Ortiz got the decision and ample satisfaction, as he made clear later in the year when he lashed out at the press for questioning his heart. No one questioned it on this night…Though questions did arise if Ortiz was all natch on fight night, after Berto Tweeted insinuations that Victor was on something stronger than vitamins in training. He quickly backed off the unfounded accusation.

http://thesweetscience.com/news/articles/12419-ortiz-beats-berto-in-fight-of-the-year-back-and-forth-barnburner

Dan Rafael had Floyd Mayweather at No. 3, pound for pound, at the end of April, behind Manny Pacquiao and Sergio Martinez. http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/columns/story?columnist=rafael_dan&;id=6393437.

By the end of the year, Floyd would own the top slot and debate occurred on who should be next on the totem pole.

MAY

Shane Mosley tarnished his legacy with a cash-grab type performance against Manny Pacquiao on May 7 in Vegas. Fans at the MGM Grand booed multiple times during the bout, which saw Mosley seek to survive, not thrive, for most of the 12 rounds. Some wondered if Pacquiao had lost something, as he wasn’t able to cut off the ring as many thought he should have been able to against the aged underdog.

http://thesweetscience.com/news/articles/12536-pacquiao-not-in-vintage-form-get-ud-over-defensive-mosley

http://thesweetscience.com/news/articles/12547-shame-shane-mosleys-legacy-is-stained-by-his-poor-effort-against-pacquiaowoods

Andre Ward scored a UD12 over Arthur Abraham on May 14 in Cali. The Nuetralizer made Abraham look ordinary, though it must be said that Abraham’s best days had passed.

46 never looked so sharp as on the night of May 21 in Quebec, when Bernard Hopkins showed off his vast storehouse of fistic knowledge. He schooled Jean Pascal and won the light heavyweight title via UD12, becoming the oldest man to win a crown.  Here is how I sized the match up before it went down: http://theboxingchannel.com/thesweetsciencecom-editor-michael-woods-breaks-down-the-bernard-hopkins-jean-pascal-rematch

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/columns/story?columnist=rafael_dan&;id=6575017

We also learned that the Golden Boy had some of the same problems as the rest of us, if we didn’t already know that, when it was announced that Oscar De La Hoya had entered rehab to battle substance abuse. TMZ was all over the story, and they clung close to Oscar, who has had to fend off women of dubious morality looking for payoffs.

Hope sprang alive when on May 31 we learned that Manny Pacquiao was to receive an apology from Oscar De La Hoya and Richard Schaefer for defaming him, and would thus drop his suit against the Golden duo. Alas, it didn’t mean the impasse would be bridged, and Mayweather-Pacquiao would get made.

JUNE

Tears were shed when ex super feather champ Genaro Hernandez died on June 7. He’d fought cancer as hard as he fought ring foes but didn’t get the W in this scrap.

The man didn’t think he’d live long enough to enjoy the honor, but Mike Tyson, sober, vegan, humbled, entered the International Boxing Hall of Fame on June 12.  The former enfant terrible made a sweet speech which showed how far he’d come from being an ear chomping, woman-violating brute.

The esteemed Nick Charles, of CNN and then Showtime, died on June 25. Cancer took him, but not the memories of his graceful presence in our lives.

The Floyd Mayweather-Victor Ortiz hype wagon pulled into NYC on June 28, and us suckers got our hopes up again as Floyd said he’d like to fight Manny Pacquiao next. The hype job made many think that Ortiz had a slim chance, maybe, but we all know how that turned out…

JULY

It was the Most Fraudulent Performance of the Year. On July 2, David Haye fought with the passion and courage of a butterfly, and dropped a UD to Wladimir Klitschko in Hamburg. Haye lobbied for the bout for a couple years, indicated that he’d go guns a blazing at Klitschko, and then did just the opposite. Most of us hoped that this was the last we saw of the Brit, and hoped that big brother Vitali wouldn’t reward him with another gig.

http://thesweetscience.com/news/articles/12881-klitschko-wins-ud-ultra-cautious-haye-haye-talked-big-but-barely-threw

So soon after Charles’ death, the fightgame lost another esteemed media figure. TSS’s own George Kimball, the literary lion of the keyboard tapper set, died on July 6. He was taken more than five years after being diagnosed with esophageal cancer, and given only six or so months to live. Kimball churned out book after book in his late stages, showing all of us the right way to deal with the KO artist cancer. They simply do not make ‘em like George anymore, and they will not ever again.

http://deadspin.com/george-kimball/

Paul Williams may well have jumped the shark on July 9, when Erislandy Lara got the better of LTP in AC. But the judges didn’t think so; they gave Williams the decision in what most thought was one of the very worst decisions of the year. Hard to say it was the worst, as judges did as they do every year—they butchered about one big fight a month. The AC commish did the right thing by busting the judges responsible, and demanding they do remedial training.

http://thesweetscience.com/news/articles/12921-paul-williams-gets-decision-over-erislandy-lara-in-ac

They earned every darned dime of their purses, did Delvin Rodriguez and Pawel Wolak on Friday Night Fights. I had Delvin ahead in the NYC clash, but many though Pawel won in a bigtime Fight of the Year candidate, and the judges called it a draw. Here was another example that the best tussles usually don’t feature the mega names, and often feature guys with losses on their ledger.

Mid month, we learned that Ross the Boss wouldn’t be much longer. Ross Greenburg was encouraged to exit at HBO, and Showtime head Ken Hershman was named his successor. Most applauded the move, with the thinking being that Ross had gotten stale, and the fight fare offered by the cabler had fallen dramatically in recent years. Too many walkover matches, too many SMH purses given to puzzling persons. Fight fans hoped a new era would bring pick ‘em fights galore.

http://sports.yahoo.com/box/news?slug=ki-ross_greenburg_resignation_hbo_071711

AUGUST

Kelly Pavlik’s tumultuous year got that much whackier, when the fighter  pulled out of his scheduled fight with Darryl Cunningham on Aug. 2,  four days before they were set to tussle on a Showtime date. Pavlik said he was irked that he wasn’t get paid enough, and jealous that Mikkel Kessler was allegedly offered a boatload to meet Lucian Bute. This  wasn’t bottom for the Ohioan, sadly enough…

Ref Russell Mora turned in the Most Inept Performance of the Year by an official, quite an honor considering how many crap performances are turned in every year. He missed about a hundred low blows thrown by Abner Mares at Joseph Agbeko’s groin on Aug. 13. Mora had his face right near Agbeko’s groin when Mares smashed it with a left hook in round 11, but he inexplicably called the blow a fair launch and called for a knockdown. People screamed fix, and called for Mora’s head. He later apologized, admitting he had an off night. That is an understatement. He should work nothing but four rounder’s for all of 2012, at the leats, before he’s considered for a larger gig.

http://thesweetscience.com/news/articles/13107-russell-mora-beats-joseph-agbekostay-tuned-for-avila-from-ringside

SEPTEMBER

Was it a cheap shot? Is all fair in love and war and boxing? Floyd Mayweather cracked Victor Ortiz off a break, dropping and stopping the Californian, and introduced the “two piece with a biscuit” into the lexicon, on Sept. 17. Ortiz stirred things up with a blatant headbutt attempt on Floyd, and then when order was restored, took his eyes off the eager-for-revenge Mayweather. He paid for it with scrambled marbles.  Perhaps the most lasting memory of the evening came post-fight, when Mayweather took offense at Larry Merchant’s questioning, told him he was a hack, and heard Merchant say, “I wish I was fifty years younger, and I’d kick your ass.” T-shirts were printed up in the next half hour and Larry’s wife wore one. Some thought Merchant was unprofessional, I personally loved the pugnacious display. If only so many of the pugilists displayed Merchant-type fire during their bouts…

http://thesweetscience.com/news/articles/13280-floyd-drops-and-stops-ortiz-in-fourthwas-it-a-cheap-shot-woods

Class ended for “The Professor,” George Benton, an ace fighter and trainer who taught tricks of the trade to much of the Main Events stable. He was 78, and a master craftsman who left us with the adage, “Win this fight. Look good in the next one.”

OCTOBER

Boxing saw it’s second bizarre finish to a big fight in a month when Chad Dawson dumped Bernard Hopkins on his back after Hopkins grabbed him in the second round of their Oct. 15 match in California. Ref Pat Russell—it was a year of controversy for Cali refs named “Russell”—called Dawson the winner via TKO, declaring that Hopkins quit. Hopkins did tell Russell that he had just one good limb, saying his left shoulder was hurt, and then cried foul when the match was halted and Dawson’s hand was raised. The powers that be then declared the event a No Contest, which most of us thought was the right call on fight night. Many pundits and fans gave Hopkins a thumbs down for his part in the affair and to this day, Dawson’s trainer John Scully publicly calls Hopkins a faker, saying he thinks his shoulder wasn’t all that injured.

http://thesweetscience.com/news/articles-frontpage/13435-hopkins-shoulder-hurt-after-dawson-throws-him-down-fight-ends-in-2nd

http://thesweetscience.com/news/articles/13448-dawson-trainer-scully-on-hopkins-qa-real-gangster-wouldve-gotten-upq

It was one and done for Dewey Bozella, a man who didn’t let his wrongful conviction for murder eat him alive. Instead, he fought for his freedom, and to celebrate his release, he secured a fight on the Hopkins-Dawson undercard. On Oct. 15, the 52 year-old Bozella beat Larry Hopkins (UD4), age 31, and gained some serious consideration to gain Fighter of the Year honors. I would not have a problem bestowing Dewey that designation, not at all.

Akira Yaegashi of Japan and Thailan’s Pornsawan Porpramook did not stop throwing on Oct. 24, as they battled for Porn’s WBA minimum-weight title and for that they must win my vote for Fight of the Year. Eric Raskin was first to this bandwagon, to my knowledge, and Dan Rafael also tipped his cap to these guys, so I’m happy to shine some more light on the 105 pounders as well. Side-note: you have to love YouTube, for without this service, two minimum-weight boxers would never be contenders for the BWAA versionof FOY.

NOVEMBER

The steroids issue popped up in the fight game, when we learned at the beginning of the month that Juan Manuel Marquez’ strength and conditioning coach Angel Heredia used to be a PED dealer and ratted out athletes who used. Whatever Heredia did with JMM, it worked, as Marquez gave Manny Pacquiao all that he could handle and then some on Nov.  12, in their third tangle; but Marquez didn’t get love from the judges, as the Vegas arbiters scored for Manny, 115-113, 116-112, and one had it even, 114-114.

http://thesweetscience.com/news/articles-frontpage/13612-pacquiao-wins-majority-decision-in-ultra-tight-scrapwoods

A true Fight of the Year contender unfolded on Nov. 5, when James Kirkland bounced back from a quickie knockdown in the first, dropped Alfredo Angulo in the same frame, and finished him in the sixth. He fought like a man possessed, or perhaps a man no longer possessed, by the man. Kirkland did time on a weapons charge, scrubbed off some rust, and goes in to 2012 as one to watch.

Fight fans shed another tear, when they learned that Smokin’ Joe Frazier was gone. The ex heavyweight champion perished from liver cancer, at age 67, on Nov. 7. One presumes he will be in the mind of Muhammad Ali when The Greatest celebrates his 70th birthday on Jan. 17th.

Stephen Espinoza was named new head of boxing at Showtime on Nov. 17. The lawyer comes over from Golden Boy, so all eyes will be on him to see if his old bosses get preferential treatment. His first act was to open up the purse strings to snag Berto-Ortiz II. So far, so good…(Yes, Ortiz is a Golden Boy fighter, but as long as Espinoza buys pick ‘em fights of great quality, he will be fine.)

NY fight fans rejoiced when they learned that the Miguel Cotto-Antonio Margarito rematch would take place at Madison Square Garden on Dec. 3. They held their breath as mega-drama played out in the second half of the month, because the New York State Athletic Commission acted in a quite deliberate manner while processing Margarito’s application to receive a license to box. The Mexican had three surgeries, for a fractured orbital bone, a detached retina and then a cataract, in a span of six months, but with 12 days till fightnight, the NYSAC licensed the hitter.

DECEMBER

Yep, he cheated. The verdict came in, in the minds of many fight fans, when they saw Miguel Cotto have his way with Antonio Margarito on Dec. 3 at MSG. A packed house saw the Puerto Rican box and move like an ace, and force the doctor to pull the plug on Margarito after nine rounds were completed. His damaged right eye was closed, and his reputation was in complete tatters, as most all assumed that the first time they tangled, in 2008, “Margacheato” was using loaded hand wraps. Cotto goes into 2012 as a viable foe, again, for Manny Pacquiao if the ball is again dropped, and Pacquiao-Mayweather doesn’t get made.

It was one of the top handful of upsets of the year, just maybe not in the eyes of the winner, Lamont Peterson. The DC-based boxer was neck and neck with Amir Khan, and had his hand raised at the end of their Dec. 10 junior welter title scrap. Point deductions from Khan for pushing were the difference, as the judges saw it 113-112, 113-112, 110-115 for Peterson, whose stock rises immensely, as he rose to the occasion in a big way. Khan’s stock drops, and we are all left wondering if we over-estimated his worth. As an aside, Peterson is another one of those kids who could easily have tumbled down a crack if boxing hadn’t given him a platform to shine.

Ward made Carl Froch look like a solid journeyman, nothing more, on Dec. 17, and hoisted the Super Six tourney trophy at the end of the night in AC. In a perfect world, a just world, this God-fearing upstanding citizen would enjoy the same buzz as Floyd Mayweather. This world is what it is, far from perfect, so Ward will for now have to be somewhat content with being most appreciated by purists.

Dec. 21 brought the word that Floyd would be doing some jail time, no more than 90 days, for his Sept. 10 altercation with the mother of his kids, and to us, hope that this “clarity” in his legal matters would pave the way to make Manny-Mayweather. But if Floyd goes behind bars Jan. 6, and gets out in March or April, he wouldn’t likely be in line to meet Manny until September. Which means we have another nine or so months to bloviate on the Matchup That Might Never Be…And Floyd would be 35 ½ and Pacman almost 34….Sigh. I’m trying to finish up this piece leaning in a positive direction, and this line of thinking is making it hard.

On Dec. 30, Jermain Taylor came back to the ring after two plus years away, and got the W over journeyman Jessie Nicklow. He said he was fired up, had the motivation, and wanted to reclaim a title. He said all the things you expect the comebacking fighter to say. It’s fair to say we all breathed a sigh of relief that he left the ring A-OK after his TKO8 win, which is saying something, since he suffered bleeding on the brain following his KO12 loss to Arthur Abraham. Docs said he’s good to go, and we pray they are correct as he moves toward bigger fights against harder-punching opponents.

With no bouts scheduled for Dec. 31, unless Mayweather lights a stack of thousand dollar bills on fire in a club, or Pavlik or someone else acts up, that’s a wrap on the year in boxing, 2011. 

Thanks to all who gave their all in the ring for our entertainment, and to all you faithful readers of TSS. Happy New Year!

Comment on this article

shotfighter26 says:

Very nice job on the year in review, Michael. Like always, I think you covered all the bases. And, a very Happy and Healthy New Year to you and yours.

mortcola says:

Nice work, Mike. Thanks for TSS, and Happy New Year.

Radam G says:

Ditto shotfighter26 and da mighty mortcola. Holla!

MisterLee says:

Great year. Happy New Year!!!

BearsFan says:

Great article and happy new year to everyone! One small suggestion to add. On September 10th there was a fight at Stadion Miejski, Wroclaw, Poland, that had 44 000 spectators, a figure only The Undisputed Heavyweight Champs and Pacman can draw these days. Vitali Klitschko put on a clinic against Tomasz Adamek who after all is The Ring #3 heavyweight contender, former Cruiserweight Champion and light heavy beltholder. Since you included Klitschko vs Solis in your piece as "reminder of how much the heavyweight division stinks", I think it would be appropriate to acknowledge the masterpiece performances we are every once in awhile seeing even in this "stinking" division.

dino da vinci says:

@ daBearsFan. First, Welcome. Second, I think where Editor Mike might be going with this (I don't speak for Editor Mike...yet.) can best be summed up by the great boxing philosopher Chris Rock when expounding on another of his great range of topics. Rock states that there are some ignorant people out there that want credit for things that, well, you're just supposed to do. "I take care of my kids!". Rock: You're supposed to, you ________ ________! Whatya want, a cracker?

At least on paper, most fights are supposed to be competitive. Aren't we always hoping that a fight will live up to it's
billing? We seem to be willing to watch numerous mismatches just to get back to another great, competitive fight. But
are we getting to the point where we just don't believe there should be good fights?

Third, and you brought this about yourself. The K2 Bros. If both retired tomorrow, are both first ballot H-o-Fers? I'll keep asking this question until I get an answer. Even if I have to trek over to other forums to get a reply. On the several occasions I have gone to other forums to see "the goings on," I left feeling, well, concerned. Knowing what I've already seen in the past, I'd expect something like the following:

First post, I ask my question. Are both Klitschko Brothers first ballot Hall of Famers?

Response:

THE ENFORCER
member since: 2002
posts: 37,974
RESPONSE: Of course, you %#%#*% moron, thier the two best heavyweights in boxing history! They don't ^%#}% fight each other cuz it would be #%+%# star Wars and they may kill each other!

dino da vinci
member since: now
posts: 1
Response: Brothers should never fight. I did, however, see the David Haye fight...

THE ENFORCER
member since: 2002
posts: 37975
Response: LISSEn! No heavyweight in #%¥%#% boxing %#%+% history can withstand there assault. No one! Whod beat them, Rocky Graciano? He was a midget!

dino da vinci
member since: now
posts: 2
Response: I believe you're referring to Marciano, but hey, didn't one of the brothers lose to Ross Puritty?

THE ENFORCER
member since: 2002
posts: 37,975
Response: #%€#% U! I'll fight U.


Seattle Freddy
"I'm here, Ladies"
member since: Tuesday
posts: 6
Response: Nether 1.
__________________________________________


I'll go and see what happens. I may come scampering back, but I'll go!

the Roast says:

@BearsFan, Welcome. Getting ready to watch the final game of the season that has turned meaningless? I am but don't ask me why. I can't believe it has gone so horribly wrong since 7-3 and Cutler's broken thumb. Damn you Caleb Hanie. Damn you to hell.

the Roast says:

@Dino, that is hilarious! I went to BadLeftHook after the Great Change to take a look but they all seemed like idiots so I scurried back home to TSS, hoping the Regs would make it back. Some did some didn't but for better of worse, this is home. I guess The Brothers K both get in to the HOF. Wlad has dominated his era for the most part. Not too exciting but he has won since Manny Steward took over. Vit hasn't lost many rounds since the Lewis fight. Niether has had a defining fight but you can't blame them that the challengers aren't that good. It will also help them to be the first brothers to hold Heavyweight belts at the same time. I still think that if the Bros were American, fans would like them more.

amayseng says:

excellent article and review....

MisterLee says:

@Roastie: BadLeftHook is like Paul Williams... there's a lot of volume, and some of it connects but most of it doesn't. Not always a lot of high level banter, but there is some and you get some historians scholars and hardcore fans that roll by and then the rest. They do have instant updates and smooth moving forum tho and lots of articles. I do like TSSU tho. I went to fighthype the other day b/c they have fantastic interviews, but i looked at their forums and I saw derogatory statements and racial slurs up in there, and I left. They have no moderation system and I've e-mailed them twice about that in the past. The lowest of the low I've ever experienced...

DaveB says:

Great recap of the year in boxing. Happy New Year everyone. One fight missing and I know it is hard to get them all was Robert Helenius vs. Derek Chisora. The outcome of that fight had some folks very upset, Brownsugar being one of them. Helenius was supposed to be a credible threat to the Klitschko's at some point in the near future. He was exposed as another giant mediocre fighter. Enough said about the heavyweights.

BearsFan says:

@the Roast. You pretty much said it about da Bears this season. One of the absolutely most frustrating seasons ever. A lot of promise, no prize whatsoever. Caleb Hanie was a total catastrophie. Well, there is allways next year...

dino da vinci says:

My Chicagoans. With much respect, "youse guys" get to use that "wait 'til next year" an awful lot!

the Roast says:

That was vicious Dino. I just crashed to the living room floor like Hatton in round 2. I hope you are a Cowboys fan.

dino da vinci says:

Now you're really gonna hate me. Born and raised in New England. (Current home to the greatest coach in the history of team sports, and the quarterback who is on pace to replace the legendary "Joe Cool", the truly great Joe Montana, as the NFL's all-time slinger).

Wait! It gets better! I know you had Michael and had an incredible run. But we, We, WE had the worlds finest B-Baller in history. (Cue the music. Where's Dose when I need him?) Bill Russell. Eleven rings in thirteen years. Two National Titles as a collegian. A Gold Metal. My argument? My guy has more rings than fingers. My guy had to beat the likes of Chamberlain, Jerry West and Elgin Baylor - all on the same team!

the Roast says:

Dino, Dino,Dino. Ya wicked Baaastard, everybody and dey momma knows that Phil Jackson is the greatest coach in the history of team sports. I'm not going into football, you got me there. You can keep Bill Russell. There were hardly any black guys playing in the NBA at that time. Bill dominated a bunch of shrimpy white guys for the most part. If Jordan had played back then how many titles would he have won? All of them. Just like in boxing, it's hard to compare eras. So much changes through the years. Bill Russell may not even be a starter in todays NBA. Bigger, faster, stronger athletes in every sport. Are you a fan of Curb Your Enthusiasm? The Buckner episode at the end of this past season was great.

miguel1 says:

Hey guys. The Klitschko question is an interesting one. The bottom line is that most people I respect in boxing call Vitaly the better of the two, but with his gold medal and other accolades, Wlad gets the nod. So I would put them both in first ballot. If there was a clear cut dominant brother, he would go in first ballot, and the other could wait one or two ballots before getting in. They are both going in....

If Vitaly is better, but Wlad has a better overall resume, how do you rate them?

admin says:

Thx Shot

admin says:

Thx much Mort

admin says:

Thx R-Man

admin says:

Noted BearsFan! Happy New Year.

Great article and happy new year to everyone! One small suggestion to add. On September 10th there was a fight at Stadion Miejski, Wroclaw, Poland, that had 44 000 spectators, a figure only The Undisputed Heavyweight Champs and Pacman can draw these days. Vitali Klitschko put on a clinic against Tomasz Adamek who after all is The Ring #3 heavyweight contender, former Cruiserweight Champion and light heavy beltholder. Since you included Klitschko vs Solis in your piece as "reminder of how much the heavyweight division stinks", I think it would be appropriate to acknowledge the masterpiece performances we are every once in awhile seeing even in this "stinking" division.

admin says:

Hmm..the Klitschkos are hampered by the fact that they have fought in a stunningly poor era of heavyweights. When pondering whether someone should make the Hall, I first check their records, to see how many Hall of Famers to be or Hall of Famers they beat. Vitali fought one, Lennox, and lost to him..Wlad hasn't fought one....So..do I respect the hell out of their games? Damn right I do. Will they make the Hall? Probably. Should they? I'm a guy who thinks the bar to the Hall should be HIGH. So..I am holding off on jumping off the fence. LOL

@ daBearsFan. First, Welcome. Second, I think where Editor Mike might be going with this (I don't speak for Editor Mike...yet.) can best be summed up by the great boxing philosopher Chris Rock when expounding on another of his great range of topics. Rock states that there are some ignorant people out there that want credit for things that, well, you're just supposed to do. "I take care of my kids!". Rock: You're supposed to, you ________ ________! Whatya want, a cracker?

At least on paper, most fights are supposed to be competitive. Aren't we always hoping that a fight will live up to it's
billing? We seem to be willing to watch numerous mismatches just to get back to another great, competitive fight. But
are we getting to the point where we just don't believe there should be good fights?

Third, and you brought this about yourself. The K2 Bros. If both retired tomorrow, are both first ballot H-o-Fers? I'll keep asking this question until I get an answer. Even if I have to trek over to other forums to get a reply. On the several occasions I have gone to other forums to see "the goings on," I left feeling, well, concerned. Knowing what I've already seen in the past, I'd expect something like the following:

First post, I ask my question. Are both Klitschko Brothers first ballot Hall of Famers?

Response:

THE ENFORCER
member since: 2002
posts: 37,974
RESPONSE: Of course, you %#%#*% moron, thier the two best heavyweights in boxing history! They don't ^%#}% fight each other cuz it would be #%+%# star Wars and they may kill each other!

dino da vinci
member since: now
posts: 1
Response: Brothers should never fight. I did, however, see the David Haye fight...

THE ENFORCER
member since: 2002
posts: 37975
Response: LISSEn! No heavyweight in #%¥%#% boxing %#%+% history can withstand there assault. No one! Whod beat them, Rocky Graciano? He was a midget!

dino da vinci
member since: now
posts: 2
Response: I believe you're referring to Marciano, but hey, didn't one of the brothers lose to Ross Puritty?

THE ENFORCER
member since: 2002
posts: 37,975
Response: #%€#% U! I'll fight U.


Seattle Freddy
"I'm here, Ladies"
member since: Tuesday
posts: 6
Response: Nether 1.
__________________________________________


I'll go and see what happens. I may come scampering back, but I'll go!

admin says:

Thx Amay

excellent article and review....

admin says:

Thx Dave B

Great recap of the year in boxing. Happy New Year everyone. One fight missing and I know it is hard to get them all was Robert Helenius vs. Derek Chisora. The outcome of that fight had some folks very upset, Brownsugar being one of them. Helenius was supposed to be a credible threat to the Klitschko's at some point in the near future. He was exposed as another giant mediocre fighter. Enough said about the heavyweights.

BearsFan says:

@dino, Thank you for welcoming me. About the K2 Bros and 1st ballot HOF: That is a very good question. I try to approach this subject with comments based on the facts, not emotion, as in comments like “Wlad and his glass chin would get KOed by all the real heavyweights of the 1970s” or “Vitali would kick anybody`s a?# in any era” or “the Klits have only fought bums”. In trying to find an answer to your question, I would pose myself another one: Would I consider as 1st ballot HOFers a pair of brothers who in any given era in any given weight division, among other things

•have both been The Ring Magazine Champions, with combined reigns of 4 years 1 month and counting, with 4 defenses to date
•together currently are The Undisputed Champions of their division, holding The Ring Magazine Championship and all four major belts, having acquired them by defeating fighters who were at fight-time ranked by The Ring Magazine as #1, #6, #2, #3 and #2 contenders in that division, who had a fight-time combined record of 141-4-3 (98 KO), with two of those four losses coming in previous bouts against these brothers and had a fight-time combined record of 15-1 (4 KO) in previous title fights in that division, with the lone loss coming against one of these brothers
•between them have avenged all but one of their combined five defeats by KO wins, the one loss not avenged coming against a then-reigning Ring Magazine Lineal Champion and former Undisputed Champion who retired 8 months after beating one of these brothers in the last fight of his career
•have been a part of every Championship Fight in their division (for The Ring Magazine Championship that is) during the last 8 years 6 months and counting, going a combined 6-1 (5 KO) in them
•during the last 12 years 6 months and counting have a combined record of 30-4 (25 KO) in their division`s Championship (6-1, 5 KO) and title (24-3, 20 KO) fights

Based on these achievements, I would lean towards giving the 1st ballot nod to both fighters from any pair of fighting brothers in any given weight division in any given era.
In the case of The Klitschkos or any other fighter, altogether a different category of questions and answers are for example if you like their style, how supposedly good or bad overall do you think the era they fought in was etc. These opinions are based on our emotions and perceptions on given fighters. Someone might consider The K2 Bros boring fighters, someone might think that a combined 89 KO wins in 104 fights is not boring. Someone might say they have fought bums, someone might say that their main opponents were elite fighters who just looked like bums because they were in the ring with dominant all-time greats. Those are emotional opinions and everyone is very entitled to them, boxing is an emotional sport also to follow. Although fun to debate and important, these kinds of questions should be (at least in theory, we are all human) irrelevant when considering someone`s HOF credentials because HOF credentials should be based on facts and actual measurable achievements, not perceptions and emotions about someone`s fighting style or a perceived level of an era etc. And based on facts and stats so far, I would have to give both K2 Bros the 1st ballot nod to the hall if they retired today.

BearsFan says:

@dino, Thank you for welcoming me. About the K2 Bros and 1st ballot HOF: That is a very good question. I would try to approach this subject with comments based on the facts, not emotion, as in comments like “Wlad and his glass chin would get KOed by all the real heavyweights of the 1970s” or “Vitali would kick anybody`s a?# in any era” or “the Klits have only fought bums”. In trying to find an answer to your question, I would pose myself another one: Would I consider as 1st ballot HOFers a pair of brothers who in any given era in any given weight division, among other things

•have both been The Ring Magazine Champions, with combined reigns of 4 years 1 month and counting, with 4 combined defenses to date
•together currently are The Undisputed Champions of their division, holding The Ring Magazine Championship and all four major belts, having acquired them by defeating fighters who were at fight-time ranked by The Ring Magazine as #1, #6, #2, #3 and #2 contenders in that division, who had a fight-time combined record of 141-4-3 (98 KO), with two of those four losses coming in previous bouts against these brothers and had a fight-time combined record of 15-1 (4 KO) in previous title fights in that division, with the lone loss coming against one of these brothers
•between them have avenged all but one of their combined five defeats by KO wins, the one loss not avenged coming against a then-reigning Ring Magazine Lineal Champion and former Undisputed Champion who retired 8 months after beating one of these brothers in the last fight of his career
•during the last 8 years 6 months and counting have been a part of every Championship Fight in their division (for The Ring Magazine Championship that is), going a combined 6-1 (5 KO) in them
•during the last 12 years 6 months and counting have a combined record of 30-4 (25 KO) in their division`s Championship (6-1, 5 KO) and alphabet title (24-3, 20 KO) fights

Based on these achievements, I would lean towards giving the 1st ballot nod to both fighters from any pair of fighting brothers in any given weight division in any given era.

In the case of The Klitschkos or any other fighter, altogether a different category of questions and answers are for example if you like their style, how supposedly good or bad overall was the era they have fought in etc. These opinions are based on our emotions and perceptions on given fighters. Someone might think that a combined 89 KO wins in 104 fights is not boring but exciting and someone else might say that they are boring because they don`t blast people out of the ring, but wear them down. Someone might say that they fought only bums, someone else might say that their main opponents were elite fighters who just looked like bums because they were in the ring with dominant all-time greats. Those are emotional opinions and everyone is very entitled to them, boxing is an emotional sport also to follow.

Although fun to debate and important, these kinds of questions should be (at least in theory, we are all human) irrelevant when considering someone`s HOF credentials because HOF credentials should be based on facts and actual measurable achievements, not perceptions and emotions about someone`s fighting style or a perceived level of an era etc. And based on facts and stats so far, I would have to give both K2 Bros the 1st ballot nod to the hall if they retired today.

BearsFan says:

Dino, thank you for welcoming me. About the K2 Bros and their 1st ballot HOF credentials if they retired today: it is a very good question. I`ll try to give my take based on facts, not emotion. I won`t state that “Wlad and his glass chin would get KOed by all the half-decent heavyweights of the 1970s” or “Vitali would kick anybody`s a?# in any era” or “the Klits have only fought fat bums”. So I dug up some info and came up with another question: In the case of them retiring today, would I consider as 1st ballot HOFers a pair of brothers who in any given era in any given weight division:

-together have been The Undisputed Champions of their division for 6 months and counting, holding The Ring Magazine Championship and all four major belts at the same time, having acquired them by defeating fighters who were at fight-time ranked by The Ring as #1, #6, #2, #3 and #2 contenders in that division and had a fight-time combined record of 141-4-3 (98 KO) and previous alphabet title fight record of 15-1 (4 KO), with two of the four previous losses and the previous title fight loss suffered against these brothers

-between them have avenged all but one of their combined five losses by KO wins, the one loss not avenged coming against a then-reigning Ring Magazine Champion and former Undisputed Champion who retired 8 months after beating one of these brothers in the last fight of his career

-during the last 8 years 6 months and counting have been a part of every Championship Fight in their division (for The Ring Championship that is), going a combined 6-1 (5 KO) in them

-during the last 12 years 6 months and counting have a combined record of 30-4 (25 KO) in their division`s Championship Fights (6-1, 5 KO) and alphabet title fights (24-3, 20 KO), having between them held one or more of the four alphabet belts for 10 years 6 months and The Ring Championship for 4 years 1 month of that time

Based on these measurable achievements, I would lean towards giving the 1st ballot nod to both fighters from any pair of fighting brothers in any given weight division in any given era if they retired today, provided that the brothers would be fairly equal in their achievements, which they are in the K2 case. Regarding K2 Bros, time will tell how long they reign supreme and if they eventually retire as Champions.

In the case of The Klitschkos or any other fighter, altogether a different category of debate is for example if you like their fighting style, how good or bad overall do you think the era they fought in was etc. These opinions are based on our emotions and perceptions on given fighters and different eras in different divisions, not measurable facts. You posed a very good question about their 1st ballot HOF credentials and when discussing that, facts should prevail over emotions and perceptions.

BearsFan says:

Dino, thank you for welcoming me. About the K2 Bros and their 1st ballot HOF credentials if they retired today: it is a very good question. I`ll try to give my take based on facts, not emotion. I won`t state that “Wlad and his glass chin would get KOed by all the half-decent heavyweights of the 1970s” or “Vitali would kick anybody`s a?# in any era” or “the Klits have only fought fat bums”. So I dug up some info and came up with another question: In the case of them retiring today, would I consider as 1st ballot HOFers a pair of brothers who in any given era in any given weight division:

-together have been The Undisputed Champions of their division for 6 months and counting, holding The Ring Magazine Championship and all four major belts at the same time, having acquired them by defeating fighters who were at fight-time ranked by The Ring as #1, #6, #2, #3 and #2 contenders in that division and had a fight-time combined record of 141-4-3 (98 KO) and previous alphabet title fight record of 15-1 (4 KO), with two of the four previous losses and the previous title fight loss suffered against these brothers

-between them have avenged all but one of their combined five losses by KO wins, the one loss not avenged coming against a then-reigning Ring Magazine Champion and former Undisputed Champion who retired 8 months after beating one of these brothers in the last fight of his career

-during the last 8 years 6 months and counting have been a part of every Championship Fight in their division (for The Ring Championship that is), going a combined 6-1 (5 KO) in them

-during the last 12 years 6 months and counting have a combined record of 30-4 (25 KO) in their division`s Championship Fights (6-1, 5 KO) and alphabet title fights (24-3, 20 KO), having between them held one or more of the four alphabet belts for 10 years 6 months and The Ring Championship for 4 years 1 month of that time

Based on these measurable achievements, I would lean towards giving the 1st ballot nod to both fighters from any pair of fighting brothers in any given weight division in any given era if they retired today, provided that the brothers would be fairly equal in their achievements, which they are in the K2 case. Regarding K2 Bros, time will tell how long they reign supreme and if they eventually retire as Champions.

In the case of The Klitschkos or any other fighter, altogether a different category of debate is for example if you like their fighting style, how good or bad overall do you think the era they fought in was etc. These opinions are based on our emotions and perceptions on given fighters and different eras in different divisions, not measurable facts. You posed a very good question about their 1st ballot HOF credentials and when discussing that, facts should prevail over emotions and perceptions.

BearsFan says:

Dino, thank you for welcoming me. About the K2 Bros and their 1st ballot HOF credentials if they retired today: it is a very good question. I`ll try to give my take based on facts, not emotion. I won`t state that “Wlad and his glass chin would get KOed by all the half-decent heavyweights of the 1970s” or “Vitali would kick anybody`s a?# in any era” or “the Klits have only fought fat bums”. So I dug up some info and came up with another question: In the case of them retiring today, would I consider as 1st ballot HOFers a pair of brothers who in any given era in any given weight division:

-together have been The Undisputed Champions of their division for 6 months and counting, holding The Ring Magazine Championship and all four major belts at the same time, having acquired them by defeating fighters who were at fight-time ranked by The Ring as #1, #6, #2, #3 and #2 contenders in that division and had a fight-time combined record of 141-4-3 (98 KO) and previous alphabet title fight record of 15-1 (4 KO), with two of the four previous losses and the previous title fight loss suffered against these brothers

-between them have avenged all but one of their combined five losses by KO wins, the one loss not avenged coming against a then-reigning Ring Magazine Champion and former Undisputed Champion who retired 8 months after beating one of these brothers in the last fight of his career

-during the last 8 years 6 months and counting have been a part of every Championship Fight in their division (for The Ring Championship that is), going a combined 6-1 (5 KO) in them

-during the last 12 years 6 months and counting have a combined record of 30-4 (25 KO) in their division`s Championship Fights (6-1, 5 KO) and alphabet title fights (24-3, 20 KO), having between them held one or more of the four alphabet belts for 10 years 6 months and The Ring Championship for 4 years 1 month of that time

Based on these measurable achievements, I would lean towards giving the 1st ballot nod to both fighters from any pair of fighting brothers in any given weight division in any given era if they retired today, provided that the brothers would be fairly equal in their achievements, which they are in the K2 case. Regarding K2 Bros, time will tell how long they reign supreme and if they eventually retire as Champions.

In the case of The Klitschkos or any other fighter, altogether a different category of debate is for example if you like their fighting style, how good or bad overall do you think the era they fought in was etc. These opinions are based on our emotions and perceptions on given fighters and different eras in different divisions, not measurable facts. You posed a very good question about their 1st ballot HOF credentials and when discussing that, facts should prevail over emotions and perceptions.

BearsFan says:

Dino and others: About the K2 Bros and their 1st ballot HOF credentials if they retired today. It is a very good question. I`ll try to give my take based on facts, not emotion. I won`t state that “Wlad and his glass chin would get KOed by all the half-decent heavyweights of the 1970s” or “Vitali would kick anybody`s a?# in any era” or “the Klits have only fought fat bums”. So I dug up some info and came up with another question: In the case of them retiring today, would I consider as 1st ballot HOFers a pair of brothers who in any given era in any given weight division:

-together have been The Undisputed Champions of their division for 6 months and counting, holding The Ring Magazine Championship and all four major belts at the same time, having acquired them by defeating fighters who were at fight-time ranked by The Ring as #1, #6, #2, #3 and #2 contenders in that division and had a fight-time combined record of 141-4-3 (98 KO) and previous alphabet title fight record of 15-1 (4 KO), with two of the four previous losses and the previous title fight loss suffered against these brothers.

-between them have avenged all but one of their combined five losses by KO wins, the one loss not avenged coming against a then-reigning Ring Magazine Champion and former Undisputed Champion who retired 8 months after beating one of these brothers in the last fight of his career.

-during the last 8 years 6 months and counting have been a part of every Championship Fight in their division (for The Ring Championship that is), going a combined 6-1 (5 KO) in them.

-during the last 12 years 6 months and counting have a combined record of 30-4 (25 KO) in their division`s Championship Fights (6-1, 5 KO) and alphabet title fights (24-3, 20 KO), having between them held one or more of the four alphabet belts for 10 years 6 months and The Ring Championship for 4 years 1 month of that time.

Based on these measurable achievements, I would lean towards giving the 1st ballot nod to both fighters from any pair of fighting brothers in any given weight division in any given era if they retired today, provided that the brothers would be fairly equal in their achievements, which they are in the K2 case. Regarding K2 Bros, time will tell how long they reign supreme and if they eventually retire as Champions.

In the case of The Klitschkos or any other fighter, altogether a different category of debate is for example if you like their fighting style, how good or bad overall do you think the era they fought in was etc. These opinions are based on our emotions and perceptions on given fighters and different eras in different divisions, not measurable facts. You posed a very good question about their 1st ballot HOF credentials and when discussing that, facts should prevail over emotions and perceptions.

BearsFan says:

I guess my take on the K2 Bros HOF credentials came out in a bunch, since I tried to post it a few times with no success a couple of days ago. Sorry about that. Anyway, it`s a very interesting question and we`ll see how long their reign lasts and if there is going to be an American HW to challenge them in the near future. Right now it seems it`s all Europe in the heavies.

dino da vinci says:

Thanks BearsFan. So I'm on record, I love the K2 Bros. I believe they have been great for the sport, ducked no one, and conduct themselves with a remarkable amount of class. They do make the most of their tools, and their skills are ample. They are not to be blamed for the era they fought in.

That said, do you get credit if it was your brother that avenged the loss? No one else in boxing has an evil twin they can send who may be better suited to deal with a particular opponent.

Then there's "The Tale of Two Vitali Klitschkos." One who wanted to keep fighting while his face was in danger of falling off. A world of respect for that. Same fella determining not to go forward against Chris Byrd late in a fight he had been winning handily up to that point.

I'll be back to finish my point tomorrow.

Condor says:

I'm with you Dino.

The Klitschkos inspire lots of enmity here (which I've never understood), but they conduct themselves with class and take on all comers. And it's not like they're a flash in the pan or one-hit wonders. They've been around since the Clinton administration. I've never been a believer in a blaming the opposition approach/maligning the era either (during the 90's, that era was deemed by many as laughable). Look, this is planet Earth, and this is the heavyweight title (fractured, yes, but if you beat a Klitschko then you've got a legitimate trinket). That said, if it was SO easy to beat one of these guys, why wouldn't someone just get off the couch and say, what they hell, I'll guarantee myself 8 figures (a lottery ticket), and bolster my life's resume with a heavyweight title belt. It's illogical.

And remember, in ANY era, if a guy has enough fights, one will encounter a guy who he struggles with, simply gives him fits, makes him look bad, and/or beats him. Not the case here for the last half decade plus with the Klitschkos. Granted, the average fan wants blood, and the Klitschkos winning by wide unanimous decision does little to quench that thirst. But how do you blame them? Remember New England in 2007? Undefeated until the Super Bowl. Were all those wins against Arena League teams??

I have the Klitschkos at top-5 P4P with Pacquiao, Floyd, and Ward. But I'm a strict constructionist when it comes to P4P (it ain't about crowd-pleasing or bloodshed). What is the gap between a fighter and his respective opposition, and how would he fare against the other dominant fighters in his respective weight class. Bottom line, the Klitschkos have the greatest chasm -by almost oceanic levels- between themselves and their opposition. And again, blaming the opposition is silly given the K's sample size.

If they retired yesterday, they are both 1st ballot no-brainer Hall-of-Famers.

BearsFan says:

When pondering why US boxing sites don`t give a lot of (good) press to the Klitschkos despite their achievements it has to be remembered that pretty much from its modern beginning until just a little while ago heavyweight boxing was a domestic sport in the US, a sport that was at its highest level fought and run by Americans and only followed and cheered by the rest of world. The change has been so fast that it has been pretty hard to come to grips with it from the US point of view.

If in say at the end of 1996 you would have stated to a US boxing journalist or pretty much anybody else who follows boxing that in 15 years we are witnessing a situation where there hasn`t been an American Heavyweight Champion in over 10 years (Rahman in 2001, not counting the trinketholders here) and the division has for several years been ruled in an out of the ring by two PhD-brothers from the former Soviet Union who have set up shop in Germany, fill up soccer stadiums there, operate their own promotional company, have unified The Ring Championship and all alphabet belts going 10-0 (8 KO) against US heavyweights during the unification process and US having only two heavyweights rated in the top 10 by The Ring Magazine with the rest coming from Europe or The former Soviet Union… you would have been laughed at and considered a lunatic, and with good reason.

But that is exactly what has happened and it is immensely hard to explain how it is possible. That is why I understand completely why Klitschkos get the ”poor heavyweight era”, ”heavyweight division stinks” treatment from the American press.

miguel1 says:

I think I agree with you Bearsfan. Rather than blame the entire weight class, it should be said that the American Heavyweight scene is at a low point.

Radam G says:

Bearsfan is steam rolling! He's got it going on! Dude is all dat and a bag of chips with his spit. Nonetheless, to me the whole world scene of heavies are a bunch of sorry suckas at the lowest point ever. Holla!

DaveB says:

I don't buy the whole U. S. doesn't have any heavyweights of note conspiracy because I believe even if the Klitschko's were American they are still boring and they wouldn't be that highly touted as far as there being interest in them or the division. When you look at the heavyweights after Larry Holmes, who never caught the public's fancy and he was an American, it wasn't until Tyson came along that any real interest was stirred. Some people have it and some people don't.

Radam G says:

You point is well taken, DaveB! Larry Holmes did not caught on because of the whuppin' he put on GOAT Ali.

U.S. America hate for a love affair with the latest hero to end. I'm reminded of Jack Dempsey. Tunney kicked his butt. And never caught the public's fancy because of it. The same can be said about Rocky Marciano. He kicked the butts of Joe Louis and Ezzard Charles. The U.S. public was not down with that, and has never truthfully accepted the greatness of RM, but they luv da holy ___ ___ of Big-Screen Superstar Rocky Balboa. [Gave dat sucka a statue in Philly, but gave the real hero ZERO!]

"Pity, pity," say those oldtimers in da know. And the shameful thing about it, is that nowadays so-called experts become exclusive fans of certain type of fighters and bias against others. And these experts' biases become media carvings on the brain cells of fanfaronades, haters, faders, naive and the know nothings. They couldn't choking smoking around them if media cats tell them that it is just a little smog.

Most so-called experts of boksing have inattention blindless to reality of actualities, because extreme loving something alters reality and bias memories of how it was become fonder, but FALSE like a muthaBigFoot!

There is a heavyweight name Hisham Rahman Jr that may become the next American superstar heavyweight champion. Though, I'm hoping that a heavyweight grow outta China or the Philippines and will kick his butt. Hehehehe! Holla!

BearsFan says:

Agree with you completely on the Holmes issue. Besides whupping a shot Ali Holmes also lacked the career-defining win (in a positive sense) that would have made him the true Champion in everyone`s eyes even though he held the Lineal Championship for 5 years and 12 defenses after beating Ali. And of course he was nowhere near Ali in terms of charisma, he came out the wrong way in the media several times. The Klitschkos actually have a bit of the same problem in lacking career-defining wins that would have the public roaring about them also outside of Europe. The Haye fight could have been one for Wladimir had he won by a spectacular KO and kept on the trash-talk after that. But he let Haye off the hook and was content with the points win. I think there are some interesting HWs coming on so in a year or two the HW scene will get more interesting competition-wise.

Radam G says:

I salute you, Bearsfan! You are REAL TALK, fo' read. Of course just like TSSU spitter RealTalk. In the old Universe, people would think that you are cloning him. Holla!

DaveB says:

I like Bearsfan already. He seems like a rational guy. I don't dislike the Klitschko's because I like the fact that they do have a lot of class, are good for boxing in that they support charities, and they do what they do well. But they don't create drama. Now you might say that is because they are so dominating and that is true. Also they cannot be blamed for who is available at this time but they could drop the hammer and have spectacular knock outs and everyone would be in awe. However that probably is not in their personalities. They are very cerebral guys and probably are guided too much by the paralysis of analysis.

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