Andre Ward Is The Second-Best Fighter in the World...MARKARIAN

BY Raymond Markarian ON December 19, 2011
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image003Great boxing is relative to the beholder. Some enjoy exciting fighters like Manny Pacquiao, or give and take sluggers. Others take pleasure in watching pure boxers like Floyd Mayweather do their thing. There is no clear answer for pound for pound supremacy in boxing because unless the best fighters fight, the argument is an exercise in pure opinion. Yet the fundamental purpose for any boxer seeking victory is to hit and not get hit. Historically, thrilling, blood splattering type exchanges have not been a prerequisite for victory. In this sport, those that succeed at being hard to pin down with the greatest amount of skill typically win.

In that case, on Saturday, Carl Froch deserved no shame in losing to the second best fighter in the world. Moving directly behind Mayweather and ahead of Pacquiao, Marquez, or anyone else because of his ability to make damn-good opponents look ordinary, Andre Ward is the second best fighter in the world today. He is leading the next generation of fighters in boxing with class and intelligence in the ring.

During the unanimous decision victory over Froch for the 168 pound championship, ring announcer Antonio Tarver interestingly compared Ward’s fighting style to hall of fame fighter Pernell Whitaker.

Now, I have followed Ward for some time, probably more than most scribes, but never heard such a qualified judgment. Sweet Pea Whitaker was arguably the most gifted defensive fighter in the last fifty years. He slipped and counter-punched his way towards titles in multiple weight classes and pound for pound greatness from the 80s until the mid 1990s. The Whitaker comparison is a compliment to Ward’s ability to make us question his greatness. 

At 25-0 with 13 knockouts, some say the 27 year-old Ward has little knockout power, while others praise his elusiveness in the ring, and there are those critics that reduce his accomplishments for various other reasons. Whitaker, a fighter who was never known for KO power, stopped only 17 opponents in 40 victories.  In a short span, Ward has followed a similar trajectory but holds a greater knockout percentage. His punches are potent, not powerful.

Ward has said, “Looking for a knockout is like chopping down a tree with a dull axe. I am a sharpshooter. My shots are like lasers. I’ll zap you. I pick and choose when to fire.”

Two things are clear after Ward’s win on Saturday over Froch. One, we watched one of the best fighters in the world make it look easy. Two, he has never been in a close fight as a professional. Think about that last point for a second. Not once has Ward had to squeak out a close decision, or have a come from behind victory. All of his fights have been one-sided, and more recently he’s handled the best the 168 pound division has to offer with ease.  

If pound for pound is about dominance and advanced skill over strong competition then Andre Ward is only behind Floyd Mayweather in the mythical rankings.

Today, Manny Pacquiao, the generally recognized number two fighter in the world behind Floyd Mayweather, is not nearly as dominant as Ward at this point in his career. Pacquiao’s achievements, and moving up to 154 pounds from 130 in just 26 months are fantastic. But some of the fights had catch-weight agreements which arguably gave Manny an advantage on fight night, and his last seven opponents, De la Hoya, Hatton, Cotto, Clottey, Margarito, Mosley, and Marquez lost a fight within 26 months before they fought him. Coming off of a loss does not boost confidence. Besides,  many boxing media and fans think Pacquiao lost his last fight against Juan Manuel Marquez in November. Boxing is a ‘what have you done for me lately’ sport. Last month Pacquiao’s invincibility slipped.

Meanwhile, in a hotly contested tournament against elite champions, Ward controlled almost every round of his fights.

Ward and Hunter believe in skills above knockouts. Ward, like Whitaker, brought immense skill to the table.  

 “After he beats his opponent they are never the same and question themselves. They change their trainer, take time off, or lose a step,” Virgil Hunter told me that when Andre Ward was a 13-0 prospect. Long before his fighter was champion, long before Ward shocked Mikkel Kessler to become a super middle weight champion and more recently bewildered Carl Froch on Saturday night en route to the Super Six Tournament victory and super middleweight supremacy, Hunter spoke true. 

Ward creates doubt for his opponents. “Nobody wins after they fight us. They lose,” said Hunter. Looking back at Ward’s last five notable opponents (Edison Miranda, Mikkel Kessler, Allan Green, Sakio Bika, and Arthur Abraham) they in fact have not been the same fighter after getting beat by S.O.G.

Miranda switched trainers twice and is 3-2 since Ward. Kessler got a new trainer and his career is on and off because of injury, Green found a new coach and lost by knockout to Glen Johnson, Bika beat a journeyman in his only fight after Ward, and Abraham left the 168 pound division. To Hunter’s point, Andre Ward has not been in a close fight as a professional. He wins - not with power, speed, defense, or quickness but with superior boxing skill.

I covered Ward’s quest for super middleweight supremacy from the beginning. Unexpected for most who follow the sport, there have not been many bumps along the way. The Super Six winner that started as a 5-2 underdog going into the tournament did not get much positive publicity from the media before the competition.

Then, focus was on his slow climb up the ranks instead of his undefeated record. Ward said the most media attention he received before the Super Six Tournament was after he tore the ACL in his left knee in 2008. Not exactly the interest an Olympic gold medalist comes to expect. In fact, Hunter said the knee did not fully heal until weeks before the Froch fight. The trainer said Ward generated power from one leg for more than three years. They needed to ice the knee constantly after training to keep it fresh.

Now all is good and he is healthy, just in time to prepare for the large target that has grown on his back. The Bay Area native has not lost a fight since he was nine years-old. Everyone in or around 168 pounds besides Bernard Hopkins, who Ward has always looked upon as a mentor, wants to break that undefeated streak. But who’s next?  Whoever it is must try to make it competitive first against the second best boxer in the world.

Follow Ray on Twitter @RayMarkarian

Comment on this article

FighterforJC says:

LOL. How did I know that this was another racist, Pacquiao-bashing article? Somebody needs to track down these "writers" and slit their throats and put it on YouTube for all to enjoy.

BHarper85 says:

Very good article. How the hell is it racist? Saying that is just stupid. I'm not saying Ward is necessarily ahead of Pacquiao, but at this point he may be. It's an argument worth having. I thought Ward was a top 10 P4P guy before the Froch fight and I expected him to win, but wow, he made a damn good fighter look helpless. To me, one good way to judge a guy's P4P cred is to ask yourself if you could see anyone in or around his weight class beating him. In Ward's case, I don't think anyone can. This guy should be a force in boxing for many years to come. I look forward to watching him.

FighterforJC says:

I have nothing against Ward. As I mentioned last week, he's genetically superior to Froch and probably many others. The thing is, these keyboard warriors don't care about Ward. They use any fighter as an excuse to berate Pacquiao.

undisputed34 says:

genetically superior? what does that mean, that his genetics are the reason he won? i thought it was because of his skill. what does race have to do with this article? the only reason he mentioned pacquiao is because this article is making an inference to the top two pound for pound guys in boxing, a conversation you cant have without mentioning pacquiao.

Real Talk says:

Congratz to S.O.G. Ward for the hard earned win. He showed a lot of grit in this one and won ugly. Carl Froch thought he would rough him up and got he shock of his life. It does something to a man when he hits you with his best shot and you eat it and just look at him. I missed the first half of the fight because I was working. I tried to get home as fast as possible but when I got on my end State Troppers and P.G police were pulling erything moving from my exit off 495 to my house something like 6 or 7 cars stopped. Crazy.....I'm looking forward to watching it again from round 1 and getting a better look from the beginning to see how the fight unfolded. Speed and skills...kills and then you ad some good inside rough em off fight game and it's going to be hard to beat that man. Great W to Andre S.O.G. Ward. Love how he gave GOD the glory at the end too. Looking forward to watching his fights for years to come. Reminds me of the Executioner. Peace n Blessings

Radam G says:

Interesting piece! Just _____ interesting! Wow! Hum! Holla!

amayseng says:

i just dont get it.. not about Ward, im a fan of Ward, i picked him to have an easy night and pretty much predicted everything he would do including moving froch back..

what i dont get is this love for froch, making him out to be this spectacular fighter...

froch got out boxed by a shot taylor, hurt by taylor and dropped by taylor who was not only shot but coming up in weight...

secondly, froch got beat by dirrel, ya dirrel ran a bit but more rounds were won by dirrel.

froch then got beat by kessler, kessler is solid, but an A fighter at that point he was not, you saw the easy time Ward had with him.

then, froch gets outclassed in every possible category by ward, 11 rounds to 1 and only winning the last because ward took it completely off to secure his win...

ward is a top 10 for sure,

but like i said, i dont get how people dont see how slow and sluggish froch is, unskilled, uncoordinated, far from technical..

like i said last week, froch is a power forward who dribbles the ball off his feet, has no post moves, cant create his own shot, he can only bang into people down low and box out for a rebound and garbage points...

DaveB says:

Real Talk - You will be even more impressed when you see the first half of the fight. That was Ward at his finest. Froch looked a tiny bit better in the last three rounds as Ward started to tire a little bit. Ward put that decision out of sight pretty much in the first half with masterful boxing. Amayseng - I think when people praise their beaten opponent it is a classy move. Ward knows he won that fight going away but do you really want to hear him talk boastfully about how this guy was nothing? He has no hard feelings for Froch and he showed humbleness in his assessment of him. I thought that was pure class and I wish people would do more of it. Froch had to be hurting inside and deep down I think Froch would have praised Ward had Froch won. You would probably give praise too after the promoting was over. Froch doesn't seem like a bad guy. F4JC - I don't know what genetically superior means. Some people do have more God given talent or strength, speed or what have you but it is also what you do with it. Ward puts in the work, has the talent and he is just that good. I thought if there was anyone you would like it would be someone who gives God the glory and works hard. I don't see it as Pacquaio bashing. It is just this writer's opinion. I guarantee Ward's P4P rating goes up now and he deserves it. People may debate where exactly he belongs but to his credit he is now in the conversation. He probably would have taken another five or six years to get to this stage without the tournament.

dino da vinci says:

Nice job, DaveB. Amayseng, I guess it's all in how you look at the sport. I look at most fighters as works in progress. I was indifferent to Carl prior to this match-up. Some of the things he said struck a chord with me. I was, for the sake of the fans, hoping for a competitive fight. There is nothing harder to promote than the sport of boxing after countless one-sided affairs. Actually, does anybody recall The Felt Forum (may have been The Paramount at that point), when fans just stopped coming? That was during a run when the house fighters were winning every fight (Kevin Kelley, Junior Jones, Julio Cesar Green, Boom Boom Johnson, etc.), where column A won every fight to the tune of 130+ fights in a row. People who didn't go would say to the fans who did, "Column A"? And the reply would be, "Yeah, Column A". That's not a fight card, that's not matchmaking. When guys have a chance to fight through their learning curve in fights that are relatively even, it makes for a great night of boxing action. I, myself, can't wait to see Carl Froch fight again and see what adjustments he makes as he closes out the rest of his career.

mortcola says:

LOL. How did I know that this was gonna be another racist, Pacquiao-bashing article? Somebody needs to track down these "writers" and slit their throats and put it on YouTube for all to enjoy.


Ummmm, writer made no even implicitly racist comments about Pacquiao, and accurately utilized a popular opinion that Pacquiao's stock slipped after Marquez III. Again, F4AGrip has expressed murderous intent toward writers and hallucinated meanings and intentions that are not in the article. Dude needs help.

mortcola says:

On a less freaky note, I agree with this writer. Ward may not be the most exciting fighter out there, except if you like watching a fighter think and execute exactly the way he needs to to beat the man in front of him.

mortcola says:

Oh, and for F4HisF-inExistence and genetics....dude, you don't know what your words mean. You cannot hallucinate your way into their genomes to compare, nor make valid correlations between their performance and any genetic characteristics you are unqualified to evaluate. You have no data on their immune systems, telomere length, enzymatic robustness, longevity, resistance to metabolic and cardiovascular diseases and neoplasms...what you know is that one guy puts it together better than the other, but you have a deep personal need to make large and definitive sounding statements to give the illusion that you possess special knowledge. But everyone in the class knows you didn't study, and that you're blowing vapors to compensate for a deep inner emptiness and need for external validation that is not coming.

brownsugar says:

Well said Mort (reader of the year fo'sho')...
I watched the fight several times... I enjoy watching replays of the brilliant, cumulative destructive talents of Fighters like Sugar Ray Leonard, Salvador Sanchez and even the more basic Hagler (as an example),.. you knew the fight would come to a conclusive ending.

By contrast I didn't think this would be a good fight to watch.... but it was important to see nonetheless. I liked how Ward took the fight to Froch,.. keeping his back to the ropes and taking control of most of the offensive transactions before Froch could gain any momentum... dazzling performance.. he was doing so much stuff, I had to go back and watch it again to catch the details I missed the first time around. Ward exerted a lot of energy to maintaining the lead while keeping Froch off balance...He made it look easy but he was firing on all cylinders. It takes an incredible amount of energy to maintain that type of dominance. I would have to say the fight was much harder than it looked..... If Froch did what he said he said he would do,... (turn it into a saloon brawl if he couldn't use his technical skills) he may have had more success. instead Froch managed to conserve enough energy in an attempt a rally at the end of the fight,.. while Wards was rallying the only way he knows how winning most of the rounds from round 1 thru 11

I didn't have access to the fight at my usual and alternative spots... so I grabbed a bottle of Merlot and flew acrosstown to my daughters house. Her husband has never heard of Ward but my teenage granddaughter graciously gave up the reality tv channel on the main screen to let me watch. My daughters family is active in the community and thier local Church. When I told them that Andre SOG Ward was the Tebow of boxing, they became engrossed in the fight like grisled cigar-chomping boxing fans. Ward presents a different look to the prizefighter stereotype...a good look.... can't wait to see where his career takes him next.

ali says:

LOL. How did I know that this was gonna be another racist, Pacquiao-bashing article? Somebody needs to track down these "writers" and slit their throats and put it on YouTube for all to enjoy.


JC u last person that should bring up racism...u the biggest racist on TSS.

ali says:

Now skill wise Ward could be the 2nd best fighter in the world but that's not the only thing u go by when picking the best p4p fighter...u also have to look at there accomplishment and not sure if Ward has accomplish more then Donaire or Martinez.

admin says:

Please take back this quote and apologize for the severely inappropriate nature of the quote, or be banned from this forum.

LOL. How did I know that this was gonna be another racist, Pacquiao-bashing article? Somebody needs to track down these "writers" and slit their throats and put it on YouTube for all to enjoy.

michaelabii says:

Hmmmm......... Ward the 2nd best P4P fighter in the world ? I think its too soon to assume that. He is a good fighter with a high ring IQ and ring discipline. However, Pound for Pound means a fighter is so good at every facet of his game that he would beat any other fighter in all other weight divisions if he were to be at that weight. So can we presume that Ward as a heavyweight would beat either Klitchkos ? Of course the pound for pound list is mythical and subjective but still a reasonable indicator of who the best fighters in the world are. He beat some very capable fighters but none of whom were exactly on the top five pound for pound list. A good solid fighter ? Absolutely ! On the verge of greatness ? Possibly. A great P4P fighter ? Not quite yet but ask me again after he beats Bute.

FighterforJC says:

Please take back this quote and apologize for the severely inappropriate nature of the quote, or be banned from this forum.


I'm soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo sorry

FighterforJC says:

JC u last person that should bring up racism...u the biggest racist on TSS.


How so when TWO not one, but TWO of my very best friends are black?

mortcola says:

I'm soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo sorry


Sarcasm?

dino da vinci says:

Umm, yeah, I think it's relatively safe to say, reasonably certain, you know, mostly certain, that that was, well yeah, sarcasm. And knowing Ninja Mike as well as I do, you can cue Queen's "Another One Bites the Dust".

Radam G says:

Wow! Da thrills, da spills and da kills crack me up. Hehehehehehehe! I luv da mountains, not da molehills. Holla!

FighterforJC says:

Sarcasm?


I don't even know what sarcasm means. As the late, great Muhammad Ali once said, if that's good, that I'm that.

dino da vinci says:

And evidently, you don't know what "late, great" means either.

mortcola says:

Dino, DJ Mort's dropping the digital stylus on some classic Queen...and not "We Are the Champions".

gibola says:

No he isn't - nowhere near.
Ward is a very solid fighter, good defence, fast hands, decent bodypuncher, can fight inside and outside, always well-prepared and aware of what he is and isn't as a fighter - that's his biggest strength. He understands his ring identity and plays to his strengths. He is not a puncher, doesn't have much variety or imagination in there. He knows this so he jabs, grabs, punches out of clinches. He then jabs, pushes and uses his excellent inside game when he can. He is simply a very good supermiddle.
Having said that...P4P he is nowhere near number two.
Are you trying to say if they weighed the same he would beat Pacquaio? Nor would he beat Marquez, Martinez, Donaire etc. P4P I'd put him with Mares, Gamboa, Bradley - good fighters who have proven to be the best in their division but haven't really looked spectacular doing it. Fighters we suspect could get beaten by the right guy.
As for this rubbish Ward doesn't lose rounds? He lost rounds against Bika, he lost rounds against Froch. I don't think he would win many rounds against a peak Calzaghe to be honest. I repeat Ward is a good fighter but he is not great. This OTT praise reminds me of a guy, what's his name... Jeff Lacy? You have a good fighter in Ward, let's enjoy him as that - but please - he's not SRL or PBF and he never will be. No crime in that, but it needed saying.

dino da vinci says:

2 Turntables.....................................Check.
1 Microphone....................................Check.
1 Insaneometer pointed at this thread...Check.

GrandMaster Mort, please step to the microphone.

Put the needle on the record...
Put the needle on the record...

miguel1 says:

All these big words like genetics and digital styluses and stuff are making my head hurt.

I think though, that it is fair to simplify a little about the genetics. Without running a full DNA scan like some suggested, would it really be unfair to say hat Ward looks to be a better natural athlete than Froch? Maybe a little faster, a little more coordinated? I saw Froch get sloppy quick in this fight, winging punches and generally looking a step slow. Not a black and white thing, but Ward is an elite athlete, Froch is a notch below.

I had my card 119-111, I gave 2 10-10 rounds, and Froch 1 10-9 round.

mortcola says:

Sure - but "genetics" is completely unnecessary, and has loads of other implications, which are exactly what the other guy was getting at - his need to draw lines about those who are inferior and those who are superior. Ward was the better boxer. Ward used his particular tools better. Arguments by ignorant people about "genetics" are always code for saying something else. My big-wordy response was meant to point out that when he uses arguments like that, he genuinely doesn't know what he is talking about and is simply trying to state that he can see into a man's nature and judge whether he is better or worse. Just like he thought he could see racism in the head of a writer who wrote nothing about race, and could see inside Cotto's head that he was desperately hoping the ref would rescue him from a fight which he was winning handily, and inside Hopkins head to know that he desperately needed to quit a fight that was even after two rounds in spite of having been tackled. "Genetically superior" stated by an ignorant person is a way of saying "I know what is real and you don't and that makes me special, even more special than the elite athletes I'm delusional about". People like that need help. And when they are allowed to spew their vapors in a public forum, the members of that forum have the right and responsibility to tell him that its not appreciated - that, sometimes, it is even disgusting.

Yeah, your scorecard was right on.

miguel1 says:

It is absolutely your right to let us know when a comment is disgusting. I'm not around much and obviously agree if there is a constant, pervasive negativity from particular users.

I think Woodsie is on this one.

By the way, keep it up guys. This place is growing and this type of discussion in general is awesome.

I agree with Gibola in terms of his assessment. It was clear that Ward was winning to me, but the folks we were watching the fight with agreed that it was missing 'something'. That is an intangible something, don't ask me to put my finger on it exactly. It is a cliche used all too often, 'Fight of the Year'. No one will use that cliche to describe this fight. Ward is a bit methodical, and ranking him about 7-9 on a pound for pound list is more than fair.

FighterforJC says:

That's it. I'm making a CAW of Mort.

mortcola says:

Sounds like a threat. What does it mean?

mortcola says:

OK - here are the choices:
Canadian Auto Workers, a Canadian large and high profile social union
Carbon arc welding, a process which produces coalescence of metals by heating them with an arc between a nonconsumable carbon electrode and the work-piece
Center for Asymmetric Warfare, a U.S. Navy entity dedicated to supporting American military forces
Church of All Worlds, an American neopagan religious group
Community Archives Wales, a website of digital content.

If anyone can clarify what F4AReasonToLive plans to do to me, let me know? This way, I can launch a pre-emptive strike, legal action, or completely ignore the fungus-child who is about to be booted from TSS. Heads up - if I disappear from the list for an unusual period of time, it may be because F4AMomentofRationalThinking managed to have me whacked. Please cooperate with local law enforcement, my family will appreciate it.

Condor says:

FFJC (easily best put by Brownsugar once, and this ran under the radar, FighterforJimCrow) has always been very harsh and very cutting. Anyone who's been here for any period of time recognizes he is TheSaint (banned prior to the Great Change; I knew it (no pat on the back, just obvious), but his youtube moniker gave it away...TheSaint). LOL...

That said, I like reading his opinions. Like Mortcola once said, credit due when deserved (he made a very astute observation on Klitschko in an article recently). But he runs wild and offends many when it seems he doesn't mean to (hip hop culture, etc).

I don't know. Generally speaking, if you read ANY commentary in ANY comment section on ANY subject, it generally devolves into ad hominem attacks very quickly. It's a sad state of affairs. There is no agreeing to disagree. It's f--- you you piece of s--- you don't know syet rot in hell you racist f------ p----!

Why are people this way?

the Roast says:

Dino, DJ Mort's dropping the digital stylus on some classic Queen...and not "We Are the Champions".


Death on Two Legs? Damn, I miss one day and all Hell breaks loose?

mortcola says:

Well said, Condor. I am happy to agree to disagree. One of life's pleasures and privileges. But F4JC/Saint just abuses the attention he receives here. There is no intention to discuss. And I consider that an act of violence. That is meat and I am a pit bull for it. I'm sorry if I personally have gone too far for anyone's taste.

mortcola says:

Death on Two Legs? Damn, I miss one day and all Hell breaks loose?


Fat Bottom Girls is all I can think of right now.

the Roast says:

Close. Go back to "Night at the Opera" Death on Two Legs fits the situation.

mortcola says:

Close. Go back to "Night at the Opera" Death on Two Legs fits the situation.


When I'm stressed, I think of Fat Bottom Girls. Makes me happy. But I get your point.

the Roast says:

When I'm stressed, I think of Fat Bottom Girls. Makes me happy. But I get your point.


I cant think of FBG without thinking of bycicle race, now that's happiness. So what do you think is gonna happen? Does F4JC/theSaint get booted? I'm gonna have to work up my "I come to bury F4JC not to praise him" rant. I pretty much stole it but no one will know.

mortcola says:

I cant think of FBG without thinking of Bycicle Race, now that's happiness. So what do you think is gonna happen? Does F4JC/theSaint get booted? I'm gonna have to work up my "I come to bury F4JC not to praise him" rant. I pretty much stole it but no one will know.


Up to Ed Mike. I don't believe in censorship. But I believe in the consensus of the people. We are the 99%, etc.

the Roast says:

Right on brother.

FighterforJC says:

Sounds like a threat. What does it mean?


Create-A-Wrestler.

Deathmatch between you and I will be posted shortly.

Radam G says:

Censorship is a necessary evil -- if you want to call it that. Some people don't know boundary and would go whacko with inflaming hatred and other condescending jive-turkey bullspit. Life in itself is a thing of censorship. That thing is better known as karma. Holla!

mortcola says:

Create-A-Wrestler.

Deathmatch between you and I will be posted shortly.


Not interested, dude. I'll go with Radam's karma game. Although if you need combat, happy to arrange some refereed ring time. Otherwise, I'd like you to go away and let the universe handle the imbalance named Saint/F4JC.

FighterforJC says:

@Condor: A few things. First off, thank you for your level head and your belief in a free country. At the end of the day, words are just words. I don't care what anyone on here says about me, no matter how offensive or hateful, at the end of the day, it won't do me any harm, I'm not some pansy like most of these tough talking gramps on these boards. My psyche (sp?) is in no way shape or form affected by anything I read on these boards.As much as this forum entertains me, I don't go to bed thinking about anything that was said on these boards.

2nd, my youtube name is "FighterforJC." I've posted enough videos on here, you can verify that.
Not sure who this saint guy you keep referring to is, but if he's anything like me then he must be brilliant also.

Finally, the REAL reason that people on these boards want me banned is twofold:

1) I'm a 100%, uncomprimising Christian, flaws and all. My flaws are exactly why I need a Savior who'll pay for all my shortcomings that would've landed me in hell. People here will accuse me of being a hypocrite, whatever, that's nothing new. If Jesus Himself was accused by His contemporaries of being demon-possesed, what are my chances of being spoken of in a much better light by folks who I actually and in some case even deliberately offended?

2) I stick it to the old timers, which is the majority of these boards. I don't hold the past sacred, I firmly believe that the best of MY generation can hang and whup most of the people from the olden days when people still believed that boxing was the ultimate combat sport. Oh did I mention that I appreciate MMA? That's another reason. Anyway, these guys hate me because I'm with today's program and I don't worship the all-time-greats. So what do they do? Try to shoot me down. This is PRECISELY why the sport of boxing is being mocked left and right by the mainstream. All boxing fans talk about is the past, and whenever they do get a phenom like Pacquiao, who is an absolute throwback to the old days, they tear him down and accuse him of steroids, catchweights, etc., instead of just celebrating the emergence of a bright star in the sport that badly needs it. Why should the people care about boxing when all that's good of it happened 20, 30,40 or 50 years ago?

At any rate, if I get banned, it'll be sad for me not because these guys are so full of boxing expertise (some here really think they're experts though far from it), but because the sad truth is, this is the ONLY place on the internet where people who actually care about boxing hang out. So what does it do? Try to kick out someone who bogs their sitch.

miguel1 says:

1 - Manny Pacquiao
2 - Floyd Mayweather
3 - Sergio Martinez
4 - Nonito Donaire
5 - Juan Manuel Marquez

I guess I could go as high as 6 with Andre Ward, though the Klitchkos, Tim Bradley are in there. I like Yuri Gamboa too. One guy who doesnt get talked about much for this list but might belong in the bottom 5 of a top 10 pound for pound list is Cris John.

Radam G says:

Wow! I'm reminded of an emperor. Not in anybody's one percent. Dude was rude, cruel, and a big-time censorer of expression and dressing and would kill. Anyway, da was walking with his arse and got a cold in the bootah and cojones and died like a muthaknucklehead. This is how the word ass-ass-in -- assassin -- came about. It was sarcasm for the dead emperor and later stuck for any killer. True story. I syet you not! Holla!

mortcola says:

F4JC - There is a difference between what a person believes and declares themselves to be, and what their actions manifest to be the truth of who they are. Your behavior sucks. Your boxing opinions are often insightful, but you SPRAY social maladjustment and hatred all over a forum of enthusiasm and ideas. And, if you don't care what others perceive of you, then you live in a bubble devoid of the possibility of growth except through pain, as well as a place where other people don't matter except as an audience for your performance. Real reason, you say? Like genetics, or reading the minds of the fighters on the screen, all of whom seem to you to mysteriously want to quit? That screen is a magic mirror, dude. You don't know the REAL REASON for anything here! You behave badly and then declare something different, what you only wish were true so that it would justify you, somehow. You back it up by USING your faith the way a wannabe badass drops the name of a high-end thug to earn yourself cred and a way out of accountability for your ACTUAL DEEDS. It is moral cowardice and a social irritant without a higher purpose. All the rest of your words are an attempt at a smokescreen. Here's a challenge: Make your deeds match your words, and see yourself as the eyes of the the world (or God) would see you. And as we are all divine children, we are all eyes of God. Then tell us (and yourself) what you, and those eyes see. No more words - they do not serve your cause.

FighterforJC says:

F4JC - There is a difference between what a person believes and declares themselves to be, and what their actions manifest to be the truth of who they are. Your behavior sucks. Your boxing opinions are often insightful, but you SPRAY social maladjustment and hatred all over a forum of enthusiasm and ideas. And, if you don't care what others perceive of you, then you live in a bubble devoid of the possibility of growth except through pain, as well as a place where other people don't matter except as an audience for your performance. Real reason, you say? Like genetics, or reading the minds of the fighters on the screen, all of whom seem to you to mysteriously want to quit? That screen is a magic mirror, dude. You don't know the REAL REASON for anything here! You behave badly and then declare something different, what you only wish were true so that it would justify you, somehow. You back it up by USING your faith the way a wannabe badass drops the name of a high-end thug to earn yourself cred and a way out of accountability for your ACTUAL DEEDS. I believe that you believe. But there's a disconnect with your reality. It is moral cowardice and a social irritant without a higher purpose. All the rest of your words are an attempt at a smokescreen. Here's a challenge: Make your deeds match your words, and see yourself as the eyes of the the world (or God) would see you. And as we are all divine children with eyes and minds and souls, we are all the eyes of God. Then tell us (and yourself) what you, and those eyes see. No more words - they do not serve your cause.


How about this. One day when you stand before your Creator and get sent to the smoking section, feel free to use me as one of your main reasons for rejecting the Gospel. Deal?

FighterforJC says:

Wow! I'm reminded of an emperor. Not in anybody's one percent. Dude was rude, cruel, and a big-time censorer of expression and dressing and would kill. Anyway, da arsehole was walking with his arse and got a cold in the bootah and cojones and died like a muthaknucklehead. This is how the word ass-ass-in -- assassin -- came about. It was sarcasm for the dead emperor and later stuck for any killer. True story. I syet you not! Holla!


I played enough Assassin's Creed to know that the word came from something else.

miguel1 says:

Im not trying to quell the important discussion going on here between members, it is interesting and part of the development of any forum. But let's talk some boxing too!

I've been looking at some of the pound for pound lists that are out there, just to see how they vary. What I want to comment about is BOXREC's list, that appears on their first page. It is by far the most bizarre of the one's I have tracked down. How in the world do the have Saul Alvarez rated 13, Amir Khan 17, and Nonito Donaire number 22?

BOXREC has Ward at 8, BTW with Lucien Bute at 9 - hopefully someone can get them in the ring against each other in 2012!

FighterforJC says:

Im not trying to quell the important discussion going on here between members, it is interesting and part of the development of any forum. But let's talk some boxing too!

I've been looking at some of the pound for pound lists that are out there, just to see how they vary. What I want to comment about is BOXREC's list, that appears on their first page. It is by far the most bizarre of the one's I have tracked down. How in the world do the have Saul Alvarez rated 13, Amir Khan 17, and Nonito Donaire number 22?

BOXREC has Ward at 8, BTW with Lucien Bute at 9 - hopefully someone can get them in the ring against each other in 2012!


The same reason they have Floyd rated #1. They're not reliable. And please do quell the "important" discussion on censorship. I'm getting bored of it.

MisterLee says:

First, thanks Markarian for another great article! You've been covering Andre Ward since the beginning. You're objectively writing about Andre Ward imo and not blindly saying "he runs", "he holds", "he's Paulie Malignaggi", or "the opponents were nothing, he just exposed it", or "he cheats and headbutts", or "he fights like an amateur", or "he's overrated." You recognize his skill. I still remembering reading about him in a Men's Health issue with Lance Armstrong on the cover in 2004 and really trying to keep up with him even though I didn't have cable television and Olympic Boxing had no coverage. Glad to see his progress, and his elevation to catch the Greats and surpass them. Second, dude, FighterForJC, where are your vids? I get lost in the video game videos. Also, please stop threatening Mortcola or anyone else here. Here's for a friendly discussion, I don't dig the racism comments, but it's up to the moderator to change that. But if you want to threaten or fight anyone, threaten me. I'm up to the task, but I'd rather not and just discuss. But hey, it's here if you want it. TSS rules!

MisterLee says:

I've predicted that chad dawson would have a good trilogy with ward at 175... but we'll see... i think ward won't be a mainstream star until he's in a competitive life or death match... and I look forward to that. Andre Ward 2011!

FighterforJC says:

First, thanks Markarian for another great article! You've been covering Andre Ward since the beginning. You're objectively writing about Andre Ward imo and not blindly saying "he runs", "he holds", "he's Paulie Malignaggi", or "the opponents were nothing, he just exposed it", or "he cheats and headbutts", or "he fights like an amateur", or "he's overrated." You recognize his skill. I still remembering reading about him in a Men's Health issue with Lance Armstrong on the cover in 2004 and really trying to keep up with him even though I didn't have cable television and Olympic Boxing had no coverage. Glad to see his progress, and his elevation to catch the Greats and surpass them. Second, dude, FighterForJC, where are your vids? I get lost in the video game videos. Also, please stop threatening Mortcola or anyone else here. Here's for a friendly discussion, I don't dig the racism comments, but it's up to the moderator to change that. But if you want to threaten or fight anyone, threaten me. I'm up to the task, but I'd rather not and just discuss. But hey, it's here if you want it. TSS rules!


Are you serious about me "threatening" Mort? I threatened to make a CAW of him. If I'm in a good mood I might even let him put a beating on me.

About the vids, I just posted one on here about Def Jam Icon (old game but I still love it).

FighterforJC says:

I've predicted that chad dawson would have a good trilogy with ward at 175... but we'll see... i think ward won't be a mainstream star until he's in a competitive life or death match... and I look forward to that. Andre Ward 2011!



He doesn't have to be in a competitive life or death match, he does need to take more risks and excite the crowd better. To his credit, he fights the best available. The way he's going about it, he won't be fully appreciated until after 20 successful defenses.

dino da vinci says:

@mortcola, Wow! @4JC, I would have to spend an afternoon getting my thoughts on paper so I could relay them in a fairly coherent manner. First off, I'm sure I would echo Mort in his thoughts and comments. Not as eloquently maybe, but the spirit of what I planned to say is definitely in the same vein. As for freedom of speech, this site is in its seventh or eighth year of existence. In that time, three men have filled the editor-in-chief post. All three had their own distinct style, and all three were extremely competent, highly intelligent, with great insight not just into boxing, but life. You are forced to make a lot of decisions when you sit in that position. A great many of the people you see in the ring, in the corners, behind a mic and behind the scenes read this site. I believe they read it because, in the words of former Houston Oiler coach Bum Phillips, "We may not be in a league of our own, but it wouldn't take long to call roll." Do they like and agree with everything written about them or their charges? Of course not. But I certainly feel they know no one will ever take hearsay and run with it as fact, they know bashing will never be tolerated. They know their reputation will not be allowed to be tarnished here because someone felt slighted, whether real or imagined. We've been contacted countless times by the people who constitute the fight game, not demanding a retraction (Although we've had that too) but to offer a clearer picture of their side of a position or incident.

In all the years that have passed, I've only requested three articles be removed. One was from a high profile journalist who chose to submit an article whose word count barely eclipsed a standard Radam G post...and used the same word 25-30+ times. Another was very well written, but within the body of the article, gave someone credit for a negative, when many positive examples would have been more in order. You would of needed "pretzel logic", if you will, to get there. And our mission is to bring clarity to a sometime shadowy sport.

We've had articles posted that put people in a better light than they warranted. People who, in the past, I have had to do business with in various roles (as a manager, promoter, etc) and I can tell you first-hand, were not nice people. In any possible way. But upon reading the article, could find no fault with it. (Well written, accurate).

You ARE allowed to have a say. And it is actually welcome here.

However...

Mr Woods requested an apology. You chose not to grant one. Please understand, you highly insulted his trade. A trade that he respects, one that feeds his wife and children. When I read it, I thought it extreme, unwarranted. If you took what it appears you took from this article, well then, it falls into the "there but for the grace of God, go I" category. It is obviously Mr. Woods call to make. I do share his sentiment. I have not spoken with him pertaining to this topic, but with a lack of a proper apology, I will request he remove you. Please note, 4JC, as mentioned, with this, I'll be averaging one request every two years. That is the severity of it.

Lastly, I was hoping to get into if Muhammad Ali doesn't go to heaven, I don't wish to go either. For no human (Including Mother Teresa) did more positive for our species than he. And you might have to go back 20 Centuries to get close. But, THAT banter, may be going on without you.

FighterforJC says:

The hate for Christians on these boards is amazing, and with eloquent wodrs yet obvious motives. Whatever. If this is the extent of "persecution" that I'm destined for in my walk, I'm not complaining.

MisterLee says:

@FFJC : You're right, but I still think Ward does push the fight and he does put on an insurmountable offense. He has a WAY higher output than Floyd. It's not his fault his opponents are outmatched or can't find him.

MisterLee says:

You're right about ward, not Christians (?!). I think you're making issues up. Are you bipolar?

FighterforJC says:

@FFJC : You're right, but I still think Ward does push the fight and he does put on an insurmountable offense. He has a WAY higher output than Floyd. It's not his fault his opponents are outmatched or can't find him.


Yeah but it's completely his fault that nobody besides the people on TSS have heard of him. Pacquiao dominates and barely loses a round (with the exception of JMM) in the last few years and contrary to the propaganda against him, he's not that easy to hit, but his offense is exciting. Prime RJJ was exciting and so was Leonard, and both had outmatched opponents that couldn't touch them. If Ward is truly THAT much better than his opponents, I'm sure he can afford to take some risks. Even old school Flopkins didn't become safety first until after the Trinidad fight. If ward wants to continue winning, what he's doing is fine. He'll be very hard to beat. But if he wants to gain fame, he'd have to be more exciting or else just take the looooong way ala Flopkins. The Klitschko bros are knocking genetically inferior clowns left and right and are considered boring. How much worse for Ward?

FighterforJC says:

You're right about ward, not Christians (?!). I think you're making issues up. Are you bipolar?


What am I wrong about regarding Christians?

And bipoloar, no. Another topic of controversy (but it's your fault that you brought it up), I don't believe in bipolars. It's just a label that the healthcare industry likes to put on people with issues in order to gain control over society in general, and it is also an excuse for people to not take up responsibility for their actions, because you know, they're "victims."

MisterLee says:

Yo dude, at first I was offended, then angry, then dismissive, and now I'm actually concerned about your non-boxing comments. I mean I'm sure you have a right to feel how you feel, and I'm sure you honestly feel you or Christians and/or Filipinos are being persecuted on this site or in this world, but believe me all of this is conjured in your imagination. No one hates you or is out to get you. I understatement what you say about emotional/mental health , and to some extent I agree with you. However, I do think you have some imbalances you should hammer out. There are bits of fear, distrust, and aggression that comes out of your subconscious, and you're quick to project it on others. I would say meditation and deep insight and nature are the cure for most things, and would definitely recommend meditation as it has helped me in my life. Any type would do. Most Buddhist temples offer free classes, even to Christians as they do not believe in only one truth or that meditation and Christianity are mutually exclusive. Anyway, good luck with your journey bro. Do the right thing.

Radam G says:

Wow! Some straight crazyness [That is hyperbolical.] has broken out. And I ain't in it. WTF! And I ain't trying to get into it either. I'm passing this one up. I've read the holy books on this subject and my view would ROCK da hizoussee! Holla!

mortcola says:

Hey Misterlee, some nice homebrew psychology there. Mr F-4, unfortunately, as with other issues, speaks from lack of knowledge. He does not know about bi-polar disorder, which is devastatingly real, even if the establishment is too quick to diagnose normal mood variations as a disease. He hallucinates anti-Christian sentiment, just as he does racism. He essentially answers me from another area of fantasy when, instead of engaging me in the reality of the dialogue, he tells me I am going to hell - another thing he needs to believe in, which, as with ALL his other over-stated belief systems, is always used to put the other guy down and pump himself up as a righteous prophet after behaving like a schoolyard geek. I do think he needs help - you kind of nailed it. But I am really, really sick of having to either detour around or slog through his symptoms in order to get to the boxing. I would like to see him gone. And then I will wish him well in life. As for meditation and insight, with physical joyful work together they are the finest medicines for anything in life. Some things need more - if you have ever seen a bipolar patient (I treat them and am well-qualified to say), you would be so full of pity, freaked out, blown away, etc, that one would realize that far more is needed in addition. BUt you speak a lot of truth here, and I appreciate it.

Radam G says:

I'm holding tight. I ain't tryin' to see my way into this fight, though on this subject I've got a helluva lot to spit. Wow! I'm reminded of a snake pit. It a lot of hissin' going on. Fudge! Like a muthaflash, I'm gone. Holla!

MisterLee says:

Well, Mortcola, I wish both you and FFJC well. You may be right and I really hope he can find happiness, and stability, and job. Also, when pple wanna come in here and hooting and hollering and threatening, I'd like to step in. I'm not nec. good at martial arts, but I have been doing it a long time, and any fight would help me in my amateur kickboxing career. But I ain't afraid of no man, and I ain't afraid of losing or getting KO'd, so pple wanna step they can step, but anyway, TSS rules! See ya on the flip side!

brownsugar says:

Wow awesome posts by EVERYBODY in the TSS... Mister Lee, Undisputed, Mortcola, Roast, Amaseng, Dino Da Vinci, did I miss anybody?

F4JC there's a real conflict with your "showing out" then later professing your faith. The word Christian means to be like Christ. A real Christian draws people to the faith instead of turning them away. by finding inopportune times to quote the bible after setting a horrible example. It makes Christianity look bad and brings no Glory to God. People aren't against your faith. Because you really don't represent the Faith. Jesus never complained once or cried victim even as his shoulderblades were slowly tearing away from their sockets as he was languishing on the Cross. He directed his pain towards God when he asked why HE had forsaken him.

We used to go into the bad parts of town and witness to the poor, the underprivileged, junkies and prostitues face to face. (I've obviously slipped a long ways from the faith since those days, but I still have enough sense to know when where and how to if it was something I felt compelled to do) You don't have to be Andre Ward to represent, but you do have to have a little wisdom.

Should F4JC be banned? Good riddence I say... but if but if not life still goes on as usual. If man were meant to live in a perfect world,... in a Paradise eating supernatural fruit that gave us unlimited knowlege and bodies with DNa that renewed us to the point where we never grew old... we would still be there.

Instead it's been decreed that man shall live by the sweat of his brow and be beset by all manner of adversities... including pests like rats,.. roaches, vermin, bedbugs and sometimes F4JC

mortcola says:

I won't even try to add to that, b-Sug. Nice work.

DaveB says:

Would you go to a Christian site and talk boxing? I said I don't know what the genetic superior comment meant but I really do. I have to be like Radam and show restraint.

MisterLee says:

*Joe Cortez moment* looks confused and deer in headlights at fighters, then the rings, then the time keepers...

the Roast says:

*Russell Mora moment* ignores 30 low blows by F4JC and calls a knockdown on TSS...

Radam G says:

Joe Cooper MOMENT: ______ _____- ______ _____ ____ _____ _____ ____! And he had on his IBF refereeing official shirt. And didn't call any of Lamont Peterson's fouls. I wonder WHY! I know! "Brothas gonna work it out." Fudge da criminal alphabet sanctioning organization founded by head criminal Robert Lee. IBF stands for International Boneheaded Fudgers. [I use to luv kickin' their thieving a$$es in courts! "AMERICA, THE BEAUTIFUL" courts.

The IBF scum suckers would not even give Amir "Da Great" Khan, nor GBP a hearing. Now since when you deny anybody due process? That jive ain't even American. At least even the "Ugly American" would give you a [mock] hearing and then say no. WTF! Besides all the other [non-U.S. American] alphabet sanctiioning organizations always give you a hearing on anything -- real or imagine. WOW! Talkin' 'bout hard to learn! Arrogance never do. In the words of an everlasting and super slicker, successful crook: "Only in America!" Holla!

I

undisputed34 says:

@ everybody...reading all these comments had me on the edge of my seat. i laughed....i cried...Mort, B-sug...Standing O. Bravisimo everybody. even you F4JC. As far as ward goes, and F4JC did point this out, if he changes absolutely nothing about his fight tactics and racks up about 20 more wins, they'll be calling him great, #1 pound for pound, etc.

Dose of reality says:

that was a great fight!!, andre Ward is Awesome, very good article by the way!

Dose of reality says:

Does anyone know if the JC guy is gone?

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