I can't be critical of Mayweather for fighting Ortiz...Lotierzo |
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| Written by Frank Lotierzo | |||
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Sunday, 21 August 2011 16:41
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In less than a month undefeated welterweight and at worst the third best pound-for-pound fighter in boxing, Floyd Mayweather 41-0 (25), will meet hard punching southpaw Victor Ortiz 29-2-2 (22). And as par for the course Mayweather will be lauded and excoriated for agreeing to fight Ortiz while Manny Pacquiao is out there and willing to meet him under the normal contractual obligations that have stipulated major fights for years. And regardless of whose side you come down on as to why Mayweather and Pacquiao have yet to meet in the ring, the fight is probably a year overdue and many boxing observers are starting to care less and less if it ever happens as time goes by. Not that that will hurt the interest in it once they do agree to fight if that ever happens. Give Mayweather credit, he's achieved his goal of wanting to be relevant, and he his. Floyd's navigated his career to the point that almost anything he says or does is news in the boxing community. As most know this column has been highly critical of Mayweather the fighter, but never the manager. As a fighter I have almost as many questions about him as I do answers pertaining to his greatness. Although he's certainly one of the greatest of his era, it's just that I'm not sure how much weight that carries historically being that he's never really fought the best of his generation when they were at or near the top of their skills. However, I can't be critical of Mayweather for fighting Ortiz. No, I don't expect Victor to score the upset some would love for him to do. And most likely after the third round Mayweather will have relieved Ortiz's guns of their bullets and Floyd will coast to a comfortable decision victory controlling the action most of the way. That being said, if Mayweather isn't going to fight Pacquiao, then who? Compared to Juan Manuel Marquez and Shane Mosley, Mayweather's last two opponents, Ortiz, although not as accomplished or skilled as either, is more formidable and dangerous. Marquez was too old and small for Mayweather and Mosley was too rusty and old. Marquez didn't have the power or confidence to hurt Mayweather even if Floyd stood directly in front of him with his hands down and dared him to. Mosley landed a lottery punch in the second round and looked to age by the minute as the fight progressed after landing his big right hand. On the other hand Ortiz is young being he's just 24 years old. He's also an aggressive southpaw who can really punch and knows his only prayer to beat Mayweather is to let his hands go and throw punches in waves. Ortiz is 5-1-1 in his last seven bouts and some may look at that as a negative. But he scored the most impressive win of his career in his last fight over the then undefeated WBC welterweight title holder Andre Berto. And when is the last time Mayweather faced a strong aggressive welterweight in his prime who could really punch? It wasn't Carlos Baldomir, Oscar De La Hoya or Shane Mosley. That's for sure. Ortiz has had six of his last seven opponents on the canvas win, lose or draw. That's not accidental power, especially since those knockdowns were against upper-tier fighters in all but one fight. Granted, it'll all come down to whether or not Ortiz can deliver his power against Mayweather. If history is any indicator, that doesn't bode well for Ortiz. Maywether is a truly great defensive fighter and Ortiz has grown frustrated during some bouts when things weren't going his way. And Floyd's the last fighter in the world Ortiz could show even the slightest bit of doubt or trepidation against. Again, it's hard to build a case that sees Ortiz really getting to Mayweather, let alone beating him. But at least he has something in his arsenal that gives him a prayer. Maybe not a wing and a prayer, but at least a prayer. And that is it's very easy to assume that if an ancient Mosley who couldn't get out of his own way the night he fought Mayweather, could come within a punch from putting him down, then it's plausible that Ortiz could really hurt Mayweather and get him out. Of course that's not likely, but it's possible. And that's something that couldn't be said of either Marquez or Mosley heading into their bout with Mayweather. During the past few years Mayweather hasn't been overwhelming and his success has been in part due to the fact that he was fighting guys who couldn't exploit his somewhat eroding skills. Remember, he only throws one or two punches at a time and really hasn't had to use his legs much in his last few fights. If Ortiz comes at him, which in reality is the only way he can fight Mayweather, then Floyd will have to open up and probably even have to use his legs. Who knows what they have left? Maybe he hasn't lost much, or perhaps he's only capable of fighting in spurts and will be in peril if he has to use his legs in trying to move away and set Ortiz up. Most forget that neither Marquez nor Mosley pressed Mayweather in his last two fights, nor did they force him to move or break off the exchanges. On paper before the fight Victor Ortiz is more likely to make Floyd do both. And that's why Mayweather's choice of Ortiz to fight before or instead of Pacquiao isn't as bad as him fighting Marquez and Mosley when he did. Not to mention if Mayweather decisively beats Ortiz, he'll be back on top of the boxing world in the eyes of many fans and observers.
Frank Lotierzo can be contacted at GlovedFist@Gmail.com Shoulder Roll Defense says: Time and age and arthritis sneak up on a lot of ATGs. Money May is no doubt an all time great. But he ain't superhuman, loves to be inactivity in dat squared jungle and thinks that staying in the gym will help with the inactivity. WRONG! Your a$$ needs to FIGHT! He may and he probably will get a decision over Vicious Victor, but the Vicious One is going to tear Money May's arse up like never before. Matter of fact, I have a strange feeling that if the Vicious One doesn't get da Money Man outta there, there will an atypical Las Vegas's bad decision for the hometown and star-HBO fighter. My leading BET is controversial decision gift for Money May. And I know that the Vegas bookies are crazy enough to try me. I'm known for kicking their hinnies with "bizarre bets" -- been doing it for years. Boxing fans, fanfaronades and even scribes have a long history of thinking that the standout young champ can do the same stuff at an advanced boxing age, even if the sucka hasn't been dancing on da regular. Money May is in deep trouble. And trouble come double. Especially when one gets long in da tooth and arthritis all up in his a$$. Holla! Do you have Victor winning or not Radam G? When the fight was announced you were doing everything but putting up the house that Victor was going to pull off the massive upset. Now your prediction seems to be: "My leading BET is controversial decision gift for Money May." Stop flopping around bro and stick to your guns. Mayweather is going to put on a boxing clinic on September 17th. Too much skills, too much experience. Heck, if Money's hands are feeling good, he might even knock Ortiz out. It all depends on how Ortiz fights him. ali says:
Time and age and arthritis sneak up on a lot of ATGs. Money May is no doubt an all time great. But he ain't superhuman, loves to be inactivity in dat squared jungle and thinks that staying in the gym will help with the inactivity. WRONG! Your a$$ needs to FIGHT! He may and he probably will get a decision over Vicious Victor, but the Vicious One is going to tear Money May's arse up like never before. Matter of fact, I have a strange feeling that if the Vicious One doe[INDENT][/INDENT]sn't get da Money Man outta there, there will an atypical Las Vegas's bad decision for the hometown and star-HBO fighter. My leading BET is controversial decision gift for Money May. And I know that the Vegas bookies are crazy enough to try me. I'm known for kicking their hinnies with "bizarre bets" -- been doing it for years. He looked pretty damn good after his long layoff against marquez....i know he's little older now but he's just way to smart to lose to a guy ortiz brownsugar says: Listen I'm not trying to be negative... but too many (and I dont mean to insult the TSS alum or Floyd fans in general) have Floyd winning this fight going away. Yes Floyd did fight and defeat Shane whom after shredding the veneer of invincibility from Margarito became the most feared Welter on the planet... even Roach said publically in essence.. Yes.. Shanes a beast and we are not ready yet...... Shoulder Roll Defense says: Listen I'm not trying to be negative... but too many (and I dont mean to insult the TSS alum or Floyd fans in general) have Floyd winning this fight going away. Yes Floyd did fight and defeat Shane whom after shredding the veneer of invincibility from Margarito became the most feared Welter on the planet... even Roach said publically in essence.. Yes.. Shanes a beast and we are not ready yet...... Floyd took the challenge and was immediately villified by the naysayers saying Floyd would finally get his just rewards... as a victim of Shanes concussive power... And Shane did try.... with all he had... came close to flooring the money man to the crowds delight. except Floyd is no stranger to pain... he survived and after a long layoff himself... driven by adrenalin and conciet (embarassment) Showed Shane he didn't know who he was messing with. fast forward to the present. when the youth Floyd was opposed by HOF fighters who had an 11-17 pound advantage in his 130 and 135lb days .. he showed his skill was too much. but i can't get that one time lapse out of my head... he was vunerable against Shane, for the 1st time in 15years... he displayed he was mortal after all when Shane got up in his grille with a fantastic right hand or 3. As fate would have it Floyd survived and ressurected himself like Duran used to do when he was older... fighting himself in to shape in the midst of a fight as he upset middleweight after middleweight. but I agree with RG that this is something new... This is a fresh challenge from a guy who is arguably more dangerous than Del la Hoya... a guy who kayaks, participates in triantholons and is naturally 15 lbs bigger than Floyd a Dynamo since he isn't boiling himself down to an unnatural weight class and as fast an powerful (maybe moreso) than any opponent Floyd has ever faced. ..not to mention that Ortiz has a chip on his shoulder as big as a redwood. The same guy whom Freddt Roach says gave Manny fits in memorable sparring sessions. Make no mistake... Floyd will have to dig deeper than any fight he's ever had and I predict the intensity and pressure of Ortiz will have Floyd resorting to his stand and slug days.. this is a very dangerous fight and Floyd is not guaranteed the victory off his reputation alone. Win or Lose Floyd will still be my guy for his past accomplishments... but he's going to have reach deep within himself to overcome this challenge. Because Ortiz can box when he wants to and he's not shabby at all when he wants be technical. he loops power shots for underneath,.. over top and the from the side in rapid succession. Ortiz becomes reckless at times but I think he'll be on a near even keel in the speed and reflexes department if he's focused. And this time Floyd can't count on his opponent fading in the later rounds... because of his long layoffs and age. I'm giving Floyd a 49 vs 51% advantage in a fight that can go either way. I'm hanging on to Floyds singular comment. " I'll be ready"... he should know what that means... If he can bring it... I for one will be truly amazed..... but if he loses.....I'll be getting a prescription of vicoden... lol. I'm probably sounding like an alarmist ,.. if so... I'll eat MisterLee's crow. bring it on..... sept 17 cannot come soon enough. I hear you Brown Sugar, but this is the same Victor Ortiz that was very easy to hit against Lamont Peterson and Andre Berto. Are they on the same level as Floyd in the skill department? If Floyd is even 80% of himself, he wins by UD. Will there be some rocky moments? Yes, I believe that Ortiz's best chance is to jump on Floyd early and take him out before the championship rounds. However, unless Floyd has gotten old over night, it is going to be boxing clinic on September 17th. His legacy isn't cemented in stone yet, but Floyd is one of the best boxers to ever lace up the gloves pound 4 pound. If he beats Ortiz and Pac Man, he will definitely have to be considered a top 5 all-time pound for pound boxer. I like Victor, but his style is made to order for Mayweather, as is Pac Man's. Boxers that come straight forward with marginal defense don't fair to well against Money. The only boxer that I think would have a good shot vs. Mayweather would be Sergio Martinez because he is a boxer/puncher with very good athleticism and a size advantage. However, Mayweather is no fool and that fight will never happen. Radam G says: Quit fibbing! Apparently somebody has the big D. I've been 100 percent CLEAR from the holy JUMP! The young lion is going to tear Money May's arse UP! Vicious Victor is gonna whup dat arse. But two or three blind mice may not believe what they see. But the world will see. Money May's best days are in the rear-view mirror. Holla! Matthew says: @Shoulder Roll Defense. With all due respect, are you nuts? Mayweather a top 5 PFP all-time if he beats Ortiz and Pacquiao? Not a chance, his resume is way too thin. The only way he gets into the top 5 all time is if he jumps into a time machine and kayoes Harry Greb and Henry Armstrong, and we all know the chances of that happening. I'm no Bert Sugar, but Mayweather probably wouldn't even crack my top 50. Floyd is a tremendously gifted fighter, and his ring IQ (in my opinion) is second only to Bernard Hopkins among currently active fighters, but he is no all-time great. FighterforJC says: We can't be critical of Mayweather fighting Ortiz. He's the most interesting matchup out there at welterweight besides Pacquiao. However we can't give Mayweather credit either for fighting someone who's perceived to be in their prime and a halfway legitimate threat. Mayweather claims to be the greatest fighter to have ever lived, and it's supposed to be a big deal when he fights someone who we expect will fight back? Victor Ortiz should've been a step DOWN for Mayweather had he spent the last 5 years mixing it up with the likes of Cotto, Margarito and Pacquiao. Ortiz may yet prove his greatness (possibly beginning with an upset over Mayweather), but for now the truth is that nobody gives him much of a chance against Floyd and few have gotten back on the Ortiz bandwagon since he got exposed by Maidana. People are SETTLING for Ortiz-Mayweather. It's not something they've clamored for. nashingun says: the real problem lies in the minds of floyd and his fans for thinking ortiz is a good cherry picked fight pretending this is a good match up and deserves a celebration. nah, im not buying that. the very reason many dislikes floyd and this fight is that there is one fight everyone thinks must happen now yet floyd keeps skipping it for the reason of blood testing which is not basically required by boxing yet floyd always portrays that it is to legitimize pac's achievements, but if you dig in deep into his allegations he is primarily basing his facts on A-SIDE METH mythical device that makes pinoy soldiers bulletproof and it has been his iconic masquerade crusade to clean up the sport. fools dig this. they give trash talking the most valuable meaning taking them as textbook for boxing. damn great way to hype a boxer that has ducked big fights all the time. give me a break, ortiz is young and inexperienced. floyd only wants to use this young guy period and everyone digs this! damn, what is wrong with you people? ortiz cant even be labeled A fighter for crying out loud! a level A fighter should fight his level A counterparts but why brewing such fight while one fighter is consistently waiting??????? dont give me the sh*it pac needs to take blood testing all the way, he recently said yes! but why is floyd keep fishing for khan instead of pac after ortiz? ducking again? nashingun says: what do you mean he's the most interesting matchup out there besides pac? are you out of your mind? floyd cant even hurt his opponent! first he tried to beat a lightweight marquez after cheating on him in the weigh in and you call him most interesting? and then he only danced his way for a UD against mosley and you call him most interesting? what kind of fights you watch this days, WWF? Radam G says: About da Money May-Vicious Victor Bout, I've spitted the same possible scenario as B-Sug. But about my Pinoy arse, SRD -- under his latest TSS pseudonym -- wanna hallucinate syet and BUG! On me, he's gettin' on his simpleton stalk. He probably has a big, ole, jelly, belly and can barely walk. He loves cyberspace. Da sucka can pretends dat he's a professor in this place. And anything else. Hehehehehehe! Holla! nashingun says: well, you can brew any kind of result on this fight because we all know ortiz is not pacquiao. yes, thats the point of all this cherrypicking fight floyd wanted. you can bet on him he can beat this guy cos thats how this match up is scheduled to happen anyway. ortiz is another well designed piece of weak picked opponent floyd always take while others like cotto and margarito in super welter or pacquiao in welter whom everyone wants to see floyd face. but no, the egomaniac self proclaimed loser wants to stage his achievements on less threatening ortiz knowing he's not that good and devastating as pacquiao. sure, go ahead, calculate the odds and all will end up winning for floyd, cos it is as you say, a cherry picked fight. and you know what, floyd still wont take pacquiao after ortiz, he wants khan next. ow, ye, another one he thinks he can beat just not pacquiao, give him anyone but not that pinoy guy. a tremendous eggless coward. brownsugar says: nashington....... personally I believe Ortiz would give Pac a far better fight than Marquez... they both like to engage, ... I'm not even entirely sure it's fight Pac would be guaranteed to win. To come off a long layoff and take a fight against a young, and hungry boxer puncher like Ortiz is no picnik. In fact Mayweather has fought nothing but Champions for the last 15 years with the only exception being he was defending a title. Very few can say the same. brownsugar says: Shoulder Roll Defense. I recently saw an article Were Floyd said he was feeing fast, he hasn't allowed his sparring partners to push him around, and he's been getting in some good work... a very modest self assessment... While supposed insiders said as recently as August 18th that he was killing his sparring partners... reports from sparring sessions can be misleading, but at least it sounds like he's not putting in a half-assed preparation. Radam G says: B-Sug, FYI, Vicious Victor O has kayoed and whupped da holy hebejebeez outta some sparringmates with heartbeats. Money May, terribly, is sparring with corpses and da walking dead. SRD, I hope that you are going to show up at the Marquez-Da Manny press conference around about September 6. I'll be there. Just look for da Pretty Pinoy. OOPS! I musta fo'got! We're are all PRETTEE. Holla! Radam G says: Of course Vicious Victor would give Da Manny a better bout than Marquez. Marquez is dust. Holla! brownsugar says: I'll be there RG... I'll have my name printed on my T-shirt,... just don't start no stuff cause I'll have my bodyguards with me(they've already been tipped off about your butterfly knives)...Lol.... yeah Powel, and Ouma are somewhat faded from their former glory. But each of these guys are still servicable enough and possess the required level of skill to be useful against Mayweather... I actually think Latimor would be on equal footing with Ortiz at 154lbs. Powell and Ouma are probably a notch below or equal to Ishe Smith which is no insult. In fact you know when sparring is going good when 2 of them (Powell and Ouma) are already announcing their next fights)... Just like Ali,.. Floyd knows how to get the best work out of his sparring partners while simultaneously helping them believe in themselves. These guys are far better than the punchbags who were hired for the Mosely fight. ali says: what do you mean he's the most interesting matchup out there besides pac? are you out of your mind? floyd cant even hurt his opponent! first he tried to beat a lightweight marquez after cheating on him in the weigh in and you call him most interesting? and then he only danced his way for a UD against mosley and you call him most interesting? what kind of fights you watch this days, WWF? If not pac or ortiz then who? ali says: About da Money May-Vicious Victor Bout, I've spitted the same possible scenario as B-Sug. But about my Pinoy arse, SRD -- under his latest TSS pseudonym -- wanna hallucinate syet and BUG! On me, he's gettin' on his simpleton stalk. He probably has a big, ole, jelly, belly and can barely walk. He loves cyberspace. Da sucka can pretends dat he's a professor in this place. And anything else. Hehehehehehe! Holla! After watching pac fight mosley do u think his better days is over? ali says: B-Sug, FYI, Vicious Victor O has kayoed and whupped da holy hebejebeez outta some sparringmates with heartbeats. Money May, terribly, is sparring with corpses and da walking dead. SRD, I hope that you are going to show up at the Marquez-Da Manny press conference around about September 6. I'll be there. Just look for da Pretty Pinoy. OOPS! I musta fo'got! We're all PRETTEE. Holla! FU#&$ sparring!!!!!!!...what happens when the lights come on that all that mattters homie....bring up parring make u look like a hater. Radam G says: Naku! Nakakatawa ka, talaga! Hehehehe! That was indeed lol. Sayang! I won't be at the September MM-VVO dance. I'll be in the P-Island on that night. This will be the first Money May bout that I did see live in years. Shoulder Roll Defense says: @Shoulder Roll Defense. With all due respect, are you nuts? Mayweather a top 5 PFP all-time if he beats Ortiz and Pacquiao? Not a chance, his resume is way too thin. The only way he gets into the top 5 all time is if he jumps into a time machine and kayoes Harry Greb and Henry Armstrong, and we all know the chances of that happening. I'm no Bert Sugar, but Mayweather probably wouldn't even crack my top 50. Floyd is a tremendously gifted fighter, and his ring IQ (in my opinion) is second only to Bernard Hopkins among currently active fighters, but he is no all-time great. It is extremely hard to compare fighters from different eras because the brothers from different eras usually fought well over a 100 fights in their careers and today's fighters are lucky to have over 50 fights on their resume. Back in the golden days there was one belt and all the promotional politics that exist today weren't prevalent, but the mob was very active in boxing during careers of some of the pound 4 pound greats. When establishing a pound 4 pound list I look at how a fighter's skills would transfer and stack up in any era. Skill wise Mayweather jr. could have fought in any era and in my personal opinion he is better in the SKILL department than the fighters that you mentioned in your post. He is already a pound 4 pound great SKILL wise in my opinion, but he has to solidify it with two or three more career definining wins. I personally hope he gets out of the game after he beats Pac Man and retires undefeated and gets into promoting fights full-time. I think he would give De La Hoya and Arum a run for their money if he wanted to. Shoulder Roll Defense says: B-Sug, FYI, Vicious Victor O has kayoed and whupped da holy hebejebeez outta some sparringmates with heartbeats. Money May, terribly, is sparring with corpses and da walking dead. SRD, I hope that you are going to show up at the Marquez-Da Manny press conference around about September 6. I'll be there. Just look for da Pretty Pinoy. OOPS! I musta fo'got! We're all PRETTEE. Holla! I will try to make it Radam G. I'll be the tall brother with the "Take The Test Manny" t-shirt on. Holla! Radam G says: YUP! RIGHT! You are as tall as a _____! Did Marquez take the test? I didn't think so. Holla! Matthew says: @Shoulder Roll Defense. I also believe that Mayweather is very skilled, particularly defensively. It's his defensive ability, like Pernell Whitaker's that probably would have enabled him to compete with the best fighters of yesteryear. That being said, it doesn't mean that he would have beaten the all-time greats, in fact I don't believe he would. Hell, Bennie Briscoe was competitive against some teriffic middleweights in the 60s and 70s, but that doesn't make him an all-time great. I thought the Ring magazine article about Mayweather versus the all-time greats was pretty accurate. As skilled as Mayweather is defensively, he is not a complex offensive fighter. He rarely throws more than one punch at a time and usually just pot-shots. One reason people think he is more skilled offensively than he is is because there are fewer skilled fighters around today than in years past. There are also fewer exceptional teachers of the sport than there used to be. Shoulder Roll Defense says: @Shoulder Roll Defense. I also believe that Mayweather is very skilled, particularly defensively. It's his defensive ability, like Pernell Whitaker's that probably would have enabled him to compete with the best fighters of yesteryear. That being said, it doesn't mean that he would have beaten the all-time greats, in fact I don't believe he would. Hell, Bennie Briscoe was competitive against some teriffic middleweights in the 60s and 70s, but that doesn't make him an all-time great. I thought the Ring magazine article about Mayweather versus the all-time greats was pretty accurate. As skilled as Mayweather is defensively, he is not a complex offensive fighter. He rarely throws more than one punch at a time and usually just pot-shots. One reason people think he is more skilled offensively than he is is because there are fewer skilled fighters around today than in years past. There are also fewer exceptional teachers of the sport than there used to be. It is too hard and complex who he would have beaten as far as all-time greats, but I like his chances against all of the all-time greats from featherweight to welterweight, but Sugar Ray Robinson. I have repeatedly argued on this site that Sugar Ray Robinson at welterweight was the best pound 4 pound boxer of all-time, but I know that others disagree about that. If you have followed Mayweather skills you will notice a couple of things about the way his style has changed. He is more naturally suited to being a defensive orientated counter puncher, but early on in his career he used to a lot more aggressive and assertive offensively, thus the 61% knockout percentage (41 wins, 25 by KO), which isn't a bad perecentage over all. However, he was forced to change his style somewhat because of his brittle hands. Everybody knows that Floyd has brittle hands, which has caused him to refrain from putting punches together too aggressively in fear of breaking his hands. Some have claimed that he injects himself with a pain killer that is legal in Las Vegas in order to fight. The fact that his hands became brittle during the middle stages of this career has also contributed to the his non-agressiveness, but aggressive fighters such as Ricky Hatton and Victor Ortiz force him to put punches together and take risk. A completely healthy Floyd Mayweather at his physical peak beats most of the all-time greats from his weight divisions in my opinion. Also, you should be ashamed of yourself mentioning Briscoe in the same breath as Mayweather jr., no respect to Briscoe! Radam G says: SRD, are you an eye witness and even a film witness of Sugar Ray Robinson at welterweight? I didn't think so. Just about everybodeee and dey momma, who saw Sugar Ray Robinson at welterweight -- "when no films were taken of him" -- say that he was great, but not the exaggerated greatness that so many ear witness claim. Man, anybody can hear some syet and claim anything. But if you were not there, and there is no film documentary of it, than you don't really know. You just have to have faith like a lot of religious BULL. Many powers that be have made Sugar Ray Robinson into a demigod. As they did -- for awhile -- with baseballer Jackie Robinson, who was the right man for the moment, not the best one. Hero making is an American sneaky craft. Now was George Washington the best, or the right one for the moment? And what about Paul Revere -- not even his name -- ? Shoulder Roll Defense says: SRD, are you an eye witness and even a film witness of Sugar Ray Robinson at welterweight? I didn't think so. Just about everybodeee and dey momma, who saw Sugar Ray Robinson at welterweight -- "when no films were taken of him" -- say that he was great, but not the exaggerated greatness that so many ear witness claim. Man, anybody can hear some syet and claim anything. But if you were not there, and there is no film documentary of it, than you don't really know. You just have to have faith like a lot of religious BULL. Many powers that be have made Sugar Ray Robinson into a demigod, because of allegedly no filming of him when he was a welterweight. As they did -- for awhile in baseball -- with baseballer Jackie Robinson, who was the right man for the moment, not the best one. Hero making is an American sneaky craft. Jive films and other syet always come up missing just so that they can have their say. Now was George Washington the best, or the right one for the moment? And what about Paul Revere? And that is not even his name. WTF! I believe in actually and reality and honesty of eye witnesses, not an iota of mythology and bullsh*tology of ear witnesses. You know the saying: "Believe none of what you hear, and half of what you see." SSR had a lot of problems with short, mobile, quick, fighters. I believe many fighters, just as Ralph "Tiger" Jones did, would've kicked the hebejebees outta of the Sugarman. On that list would be Money May, Sugar Ray Leonard, Pernell Whitaker, Da Manny and even Hector "Macho Time" Camacho. [Go and take a look at how many southpaws put it on SRR. Dude apparently had issues with southpaws.] Actually the U.S. government has footage of SRR when he was a welterweight. I just don't know why the U.S. government be declaring syet restricted and top secret. [If you have the right clearance and hook up, you can see some of the rare welterweight footage on him. Maybe some has been declassified and is on Youtube or Daily Motion.] Man, Sugar Ray Robinson had a lot controversial wins. You oughta go to fightfax and read some of the stuff about them. Even Ralph Dupas put a severe beatdown on the Sugarman and was robbed. And everyone and his cousin know that the Sugarman stayed far away from fighting opponents on "The Black Murder Row." Anyway, to each his own. Opinions are like arseholes. We all have one. Holla! I agree with you to a degree. Jackie Robinson wasn't the best negro player, but he had the right temperment that was needed to break the color barrier. You are also correct in that there isn't any film on SRR from his welterweight days. I trust my 69 year old father, my grandfather (RIP), and others that lived during his time period that got to see him fight in his prime. I also look at how well he did as a middleweight during the end of his physical prime and come to the conclusion that he was probably a beast during his 20s. However, with that being said, I'm pretty sure that there were cats during that time period that would have given him a run for his money. As you probably know, there were black fighters that the great Jack Johnson dodged during his era, but this is common in boxing. Sugar Ray Robinson was very business orientated and would pull out of a fight in a heart beat if the "risk and reward" didn't add up right; I can't say that I blame him. Floyd Mayweather brags about being 41-0, but when SRR retired for the first time his record was a sick 131-3-1-1. You have to admit, that is pretty amazing! His all around skills are what make him the best in my opinion (great power, great chin, good defense, great ring generalship, great boxing IQ). Sugar suffered from severe ring rust and had seen his best days in his comeback fight against Ralph Tiger Jones. At welterweight and in his prime, Robinson would have knocked Camacho out in 6 rounds, come on bro! This is the same Camacho that got destroyed by Oscar De La Hoya and the one dimensional Felix Trinidad? I love Manny, but he couldn't handle SRR size, ring generalship, and granite chin. For as good as Whitaker was defensively, he was once knocked on his a$$ by Roger Mayweather, so what would a flush hit on the chin from Sugar do to him? Ray Leonard was knocked down by far less dangerous punchers than SRR, so imagine what one of the best finishers in the history of boxing would have done to him. Out of all the fighters you mentioned I think Floyd Mayweather jr. would have had the best chance against him, but he wouldn't be able to keep SRR off of him over 12 rounds, let alone the 15 rounds of old. Holla! amayseng says: It is an intriguing matchup for sure. Young lion against a future hall of fame veteran. Matthew says: I agree with much of SRD's assessment. I trust the judgment and knowledge of those that saw Robinson in his prime as a welterweight, and his numbers are staggering, considering a lot of welterweights wouldn't fight him and he had to fight a lot of bigger men (LaMotta and several others). I think Mayweather's defensive abilities would keep him in the fight against Robinson, but he'd have no prayer of winning. Pacquiao is way too small. In his prime at welterweight, Leonard was never knocked down and was only seriously hurt once (against Duran). His smarts and skill would have kept him competitive against Robinson, but I think he would lose a decision. Hearns would be kayoed by the original Sugar Ray in an exciting fight. Whitaker would be stopped in the middle rounds by Robinson. Camacho? I'm not even going to dignify that one. Like Radam said, everyone's got an opinion but it should be based on logic and evidence. Condor says: Well said Matthew. Check out Ray Robinson's February of 1943: amayseng says: what about hagler vs ray robinson? i think hagler would have the best chance of winning with duran a close second. RR would win both bouts, but id say hagler would win 1/5. that is just how good RR was. Radam G says: Wow! We are getting close to an agreement about reality. But remember Sugar Ray Robinson was also knocked down by feather-punching pugilists. You can read it in the result column of his record on either Boxrec or Fightfax. Even better, you can get the FBI file on the Sugarman and learn all types of jive. Also the Sugarman got some controversial decisions on his way to a 122-1 record. Plus he did fight some didn't-have-a-prayer-of-a-chance opponents, who were slow as turtles on a fast day of snells. But it is all good. I give him his props. But a lot of boksing cats and trainers, who saw him in live in living color, are impressed that he was great, but say that he was just a random selection for the greatest of all times by the then politically powerful Ring Magazine, which was "looking to make a Jackie Robinson's baseball-like statement. [In those days, it was good to be a Robinsons.] The magazine not has wide-swing Harry Greb as the P4P of all times. Just go to the Ring Magazine internet site and see it for yourself. Radam G says: A DOUBLE WOW, Matthew, my man! HOW many southpaws did you see Sugar Ray Robinson fight, even on film? That's what I thought! The ones that you did see, they kicked his butt. Dude couldn't handle a southpaw to help his life. Hector "Macho" Camacho is one of the fastest fighters in the history of the game -- southpaw or conventional. The Sugarman woulda had a nightmare trying to find him, since 95 percent of the Sugarman's opponents came straight to him. [WTF! Jake LaMotta was a human-standing-in-front-of-you punching bag with arms and a heart beat. Every moving target fighter that the Sugarman fought ended in a controversial win for the Sugar one, and those decisions were booed like five mad teddy bears. Just holla as the history. brownsugar says: Awesome research Condor... by all opinions that matter, Ray Robinson was one of the most exceptional talents to ever step inside the squared circle. Ahead of his times and a trend setter according to my dad who grew up watching him from the beginning. I need no other opinions. Condor says: "...by all opinions that matter, Ray Robinson was one of the most exceptional talents to ever step inside the squared circle. Ahead of his times and a trend setter according to my dad who grew up watching him from the beginning. I need no other opinions." Radam G says: B-Sug, what you say about Hector is often said about Aaron "Hawk Time" Pryor, but he was one of the greatest fighters of all times. And Sugar Ray Leonard and a lot of other fighters didn't want any part of him. The experts know about Hector and Aaron and rate them very HIGH! Nothing else matters. Fans are always going to be bias about anything that they favor -- real or imagine. I wouldn't expect anything less. Holla! Radam G says: A lot of dads are big liars. I heard some use to walk throught five miles of snow with holes in the soles of their shoes to school. And a lot of those suckas done this and that, but when you go to the likes of Beenverified dot com on them, you'll see a lot of missing syet. Then they will say that their jivy past life "is TOP SECRET," and a lot of stuff is hidden for security reasons. The marginalization of nostalgia is a metaphoric cancer of humanity. I'm reminded of how some don't see what is in the mirror, because of the power of being told this or that. People accept ear witnesses, because things can be adjusted to their liking. They despise eye-witnesses and films because all is there to contradict them and expose the reality of the actuality. It is a known fact that fathers are likely to lie more to their sons than to a stranger, a hobo or a ho. The dads will even say, "I swear to God," while fibbing that arse off. Life is a bytch, then you die. To each his on opinion, as well as his dirt, water or ashes nap. Holla! Matthew says: Radam, I don't doubt that Robinson may have had some trouble with southpaws. I also don't doubt that he may have been the beneficiary of a few close decisions (if you fight as many times as he did, there were bound to be a few controversial decisions). Yes, Robinson was stopped once while Camacho was not, but the heat was responsible for that stoppage, not Joey Maxim. None of that changes my opinion that Robinson was simply the greatest figher ever. And speaking of Camacho, I think brownsugar said it best when he said "Macho Man" was a colossal waste of potential and talent. He ceased being an exciting stick-and-move fighter and became a shameless runner and holder after Edwin Rosario rocked him in '86 (not to mention a big pain in the ass). Pryor squandered his talent on drugs as well, but at least he had a signature win against an all-time great in the fight of the decade (more than I can say for Camacho). While Aaron Pryor was a great fighter, I'm tired of hearing from some people (Pryor included) how Ray Leonard ducked Pryor. First of all, they didn't compete in the same weight class, so it's not like he was a mandatory challenger. Second, Leonard wrote in an article about his first retirement that he had signed contracts to fight both Pryor and Arguello after the aborted Roger Stafford fight in May of '82. Mike Trainer supports this statement. Doesn't sound to me like Leonard was ducking "The Hawk." It's too bad they didn't ever fight; it would have been exciting. I think Leonard would have stopped Pryor late. Radam G says: Just go and view it for yourself. I saw a southpaw straight kick the Sugarman's butt on film. He also couldn't handle bigger fighters. Joe Calzaghe coulda kayoed him just as Joey Maxim did. And don't give me that very-hot-day jive. It was also a hot day for Joey Maxim. The Sugarman was not suffering because of the heat. His arse was suffering because of toxins and food poisoning. This is what happens when a dumba$$ drink cow blood. He shoulda examined the blood first. You know that types of jive can be found in human blood, than why not cow blood? It is all good. Mythology is a big thing among humans. Holla! Radam G says: OMG! C'mon Matthew! You are getting COCKY and now you are spittin' JABBERWOCKY! Matthew says: Radam, brownsugar says: all pretense and analogies aside... Leonard was one of the most pure finishers in the business. EVER. Sure , age and bad habits break any boxer down,.. but his star burned brighter than most any fighter who ever lived. leonard made the destruction of a fighter more compelling that Opera or Ballet... his epic signature on the sport revolutionized it for those who had the talent... Matthew I have to agree... Radam G says: I always agree to disagree. For one thing, suckas in da game lie like a muthafibber. If you are not in da know or a need to know, ya may not ever know. Rationalizing is GREAT, but sparring is a guideline to a likely final line 90 percent of the time. Boxers know. SRL would have had pure hell with Hawk Time and would have probably lost by KAYO. There is no "signed contract," between the combatants or it would be in the nowadays boxing auctions and would sell for a ton of money. Don't take my word for it, just do your on deep research. Da hurt bitnezz is full of optical illusion and mass confusion. And there are HARD lies and a lot of crying eyes. The fog of the game is just like the weapon of mass construction in Iraq and Pinoys being on A-side meth that help us to walk through bullets and sh*t. bullsh*tology BIG TIME. Holla! mortcola says: Radam, I like you. Even when you're hallucinating. Maybe even more then. The idea that Pryor would have had much success at all against Leonard, physically, stylistically, technically, is whacky. Prime Leonard would have made him pay again, again, again, and, as one of the true killer finishers of the modern era, with both every bit of Mayweather's speed and precision and defense, plus combinations and a sheer love of inflicting pain and unconscious, would have put him OUT. It would have ended up a mismatch. There is no scenario I can see where that is not the case. mortcola says: Imagine all the successes a slow, over the weight, aging Alexis Arguello had against Pryor, except by a bigger, stronger, exponentially faster and more elusive fighter in Leonard, with the power of a full-fledged welterweight. it would have been brutal. Duran win over Leonard came from a precision death machine, with an iron chin and a far more well-honed boxing-punching toolkit than Pryor's. Pryor was very good, with crazy perseverence and volume mixed in, but he was not in Duran's league as a fighter. And, as said above, Leonard fought that prime, pumped Duran to the limit and took everything he had. Radam G says: The world said the same about Cassius Clay having a chance against Sonny "Night Train" Liston. The mortcola of that day told the greatest pound for pound pugilistic guru of all times -- Angie Dundee -- "I like you, even when you're hallucinating..." We know what time it was -- a night wreck -- when the Louisville Lips got a hold of Night Train. Angie D knew what it was going to be because he went throught the same jive before Sugar Ray Robinson dance with Carmen Basilio. And again before Rev. [Big] George Foreman dance with Michael Moorer. Talk is like rottening meat, and what could been can never be beat. But it is up to you if you want to eat. So you -- and your cyberspace gang of ______ -- have an edge on that one. But I saw Hawk Time whup da hebejeebeez outta SRL, Howard Davis, Tommy Hearns and James Kenty ton of times in the amateurs and pros. [I've seem boxing stuff that you and your C-gangstas couldn't even dream.] Pro boksing is BIG prizefighting business FOR the BIG SHOTS, not the small ones with a lot of made-up man pride of pridefighting. Radam G says: Hawk Time would kayoed Fists of Iron just as he done a time or two in sparring wars. Hawk Time was unestimated by the fans and fanfaronades. Holla! Radam G says: As Uncle Roger says, "More people don't kno' sh*t 'bout boksing!" But they talk a good game of bullsh*tology. Holla! Matthew says: I have to agree, Mort. Pryor was a very good, if not great fighter, but I don't see him kayoing Duran. And you brought up a good point, if he was hit cleanly with numerous right hands by Arguello, who was ten pounds above his optimal fighting weight and just past his prime, what would a prime Leonard have done to him? Aside from Arguello and Cervantes, his other opponents during his prime were largely unremarkable. Still, he was a joy to watch, even if his "Hawk Time" chant got to be incredibly annoying. Radam G says: Wow! I'm so glad that I was and am an eyewitness of the actual greatest pugilists of the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, 2000s and now 2010s. Otherwise I'd be one psychological blinded muthasucka. Being born in da game, I just cannot see what dreamers, fanfaronades and idol-worshipers see. Holla! mortcola says: Hey Rad - Do you see how almost all your opinions are controversial ones, which rely on claiming that you have special knowledge and the other guy is nothing but a wannabe, or naive, or whatever? Meanwhile, I don't think Pryor would have had much success against a mature SRL or Duran. Radam G says: Mortcola, opinions and facts are always "controversial ones, which rely on claiming that [one] have...knowledge," PERIOD! Nevermind "special." Sarcasm will never get you da hook up, book up or look up. I know what I know, and I'm not special or entitled -- just LUCKY and probably GIFTED with the right connections to get the upclose and personal detections! I'm where I am, just as the father and his two sons that you always see on television in the ring at every darn bout. Now THEY also have the inside "knowledge" of all the sh*t going on in da game. And you will not dispute that, because you're been seeing them like a muthaseer, unless you need a seeing dawg. Well, da pops and his sons are in plain sight and I'm hiding in plain sight. C'mon, cokacola -- I mean mortcola, CHILLAX! Don't be hatin,' MAN! It's all good. You cannot know syet, unless you are in or around da syet. Keep watching dat tube, ya might spot me gettin' on my hiding in plain sight. Hehehehehe! Life is FUN like muthajoke! I'm laughing so hard that I'm about to choke. Holla! mortcola says: Nope. No hatin'. I've been around, fights, fighters, and gyms for 29 years. Champs, refs, broadcasters, trainers. My opinions are based in experience too. I have no problem with your disagreement or your opinions. Why I'm here, other people to bounce off. But I will always call you out on placing yourself ABOVE, and putting others BELOW to achieve that illusion. Now, keep the sizzle coming. Radam G says: Wow! Cockycola, your optical illusions and mass confusion are in full swing. One knows when you know because you woulda, coulda and shoulda saw it for yourself. Da game ain't simple and melodramatic as you like to claim. Come after me all day. It is all good. I'm where I am. I see what I see. I know what I know. I have no need to be ABOVE any reader or clutterer. Da game is what it is. I'm blessed. TSS scribes back me up 99 percent of the time with your copy. Enjoy the ride and the reading. And bring it on. And just because your self-denial jealousy deludes you into saying something, it doesn't make it SO! If I were like you claim, I would put everything about me in this Universe. Danggit! I see some of the old boxers and coaches have not come back to this new TSS. Holla! Radam G says: Take all the potshots that turn you on. They cannot crack the truth. Holla! mortcola says: Don't need to ignore you. I like you. Radam G says: WTF! My momma told me that I was a darn teddy bear and instead of peeps ignoring me, they like me. Danggit! Sometimes you just cannot find haters, and those darn mommas always end be ditto! Hehehehehehe! Holla!
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Time and age and arthritis sneak up on a lot of ATGs. Money May is no doubt an all time great. But he ain't superhuman, loves to be inactivity in dat squared jungle and thinks that staying in the gym will help with the inactivity. WRONG! Your a$$ needs to FIGHT! He may and he probably will get a decision over Vicious Victor, but the Vicious One is going to tear Money May's arse up like never before. Matter of fact, I have a strange feeling that if the Vicious One doesn't get da Money Man outta there, there will an atypical Las Vegas's bad decision for the hometown and star-HBO fighter. My leading BET is controversial decision gift for Money May. And I know that the Vegas bookies are crazy enough to try me. I'm known for kicking their hinnies with "bizarre bets" -- been doing it for years.
Boxing fans, fanfaronades and even scribes have a long history of thinking that the standout young champ can do the same stuff at an advanced boxing age, even if the sucka hasn't been dancing on da regular. Money May is in deep trouble. And trouble come double. Especially when one gets long in da tooth and arthritis all up in his a$$. Holla!