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Roy Jones Jr. Says He Was Better Than Mayweather….and Roy's Right!

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  • Roy Jones Jr. Says He Was Better Than Mayweather….and Roy's Right!

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    BY FRANK LOTIERZO

    Undefeated records, especially when it comes to boxing, are very overvalued. If a boxer is a star, he can pretty much pick and choose whom he fights. With four sanctioning bodies (WBA, WBC, IBF and WBO) it's easy to find a limited opponent to fight with a title on the line and pass it off as a legitimate championship bout and enough fans will buy it, literally and figuratively.

    Until Floyd Mayweather 50-0 (27) retired, Rocky Marciano was the most famous boxer to retire undefeated at 49-0 (43). When a Marciano fan tried to make the case Rocky was greater than Joe Louis or Muhammad Ali, he would use his undefeated record as being the clincher to settle the debate in his favor. My retort to that has always been that if Louis or Ali fought every opponent Marciano did on the night he fought them, they also would've gone 49-0 with the only difference being Louis probably wins more by KO than Rocky's 43 and Ali most likely doesn't score 43 knockouts....but that's it.

    Then Floyd Mayweather goes 50-0 and his defenders use his unblemished record as the de facto tie-breaker over history’s past great pound for pound fighters. However, the difference between Marciano and Mayweather is that Rocky fought everybody during a pedestrian era and Floyd picked his spots and retired and came back a few times during a stout era while conveniently avoiding some of the bigger threats to him when both were at their prime. Instead of picking apart Mayweather's record, which isn't hard to do, it's more authentic to compare him to another pound for pound great from his era or slightly before it....Roy Jones.

    Jones recently said: “Floyd Mayweather was TBE at making money, but look at his highlights and look at mine. You can’t pretend it’s the same. You can’t pretend there’s ever been anyone come close to doing what I did. Nobody you could name could touch me - and I’m talking about nobody who’s around now, nobody who was around in my prime, and nobody who was around any time you can mention outta your mouth."

    I agree with Roy. Floyd picked his opponents better, but as a fighter Roy was superior to Mayweather in every category with the exception that Floyd had a better chin. Between 1989 and 2003, Roy was easily one of the most physically skilled and gifted fighters ever. He was the perfect blend of athleticism, speed and power. Roy had blinding hand speed, could fight in retreat, counter punching, or take the initiative and explode offensively. And what a terrific body puncher he was! From a physical skill-set, Jones was faster than Mayweather, had a better offensive repertoire, punched harder with both hands, was a better body puncher and finisher and, yes, because of his foot speed he was harder to hit. Remember, much of Mayweather's stellar defense started with his unwillingness to all-out engage. Fighters who seek to win by knockout accept they're going to get hit and take chances fighting in the danger zone and end up getting nicked more. Jones did that much more than Mayweather and when his reflexes dulled he started to get hit more.

    The only category where Mayweather gets the check in his column is in punch resistance, but even that may not be completely fair or accurate as Roy's chin was never an issue until he went up to heavyweight and then back down to light heavyweight. (There aren't many examples of guys going down from heavyweight to light heavyweight other than Chris Byrd who beat many notables during his heavyweight title reign and then had a revelation after losing to Alexander Povetkin and figured if he went down to light heavyweight he'd be better off. Seven months after fighting Povetkin at 211.75 he fought fringe contender Shaun George 16-2-2, weighing 174, and it was a disaster. Byrd looked drained and was stopped in the ninth round.) Fighters who go up a lot in weight are usually unsuccessful when they try to go back down. I believe dropping 25 pounds after beating Ruiz took something out of Roy Jones that he never got back. A case can be made that Jones never looked better than when he beat Ruiz and never looked special again, not even one time, after that.

    Roy won world titles at middleweight, super middleweight, light heavyweight and in 2003 in his 49th fight made history as the first middleweight in 100 years to capture the heavyweight title. In his first 50 bouts, Jones compiled a record of 49-1 (38). The loss was by disqualification against Montell Griffin for hitting him while he was down per referee Tony Perez. When they met in a rematch, Jones stopped Griffin in the first round. In Floyd's 50 bouts there's a stronger argument he was bettered by Jose Luis Castillo the first time they fought than there is that that Jones was beaten by Griffin, based on what took place in the ring opposed to some shady judging. Like Jones versus Griffin, Mayweather won his rematch with Castillo, but just not as convincingly.

    Some people, myself included, have suggested that Mayweather's opposition when he fought the biggest names on his record is a little spotty. This is something that applies to Jones as well. The difference is that Jones dominated Bernard Hopkins, a certifiable all-time great, when Hopkins was near his peak physically. (Hopkins entered the fight 22-1, with the loss coming in his pro debut. Jones outpointed him by a pronounced margin, and Hopkins then went undefeated over the next 12 years.)

    Roy fought James Toney a year and a half after he beat Hopkins. Toney entered their fight undefeated at 44-0-2. Jones dropped Toney in the third round and dominated him even more thoroughly than he did Hopkins. Toney happens to be one of the most complete fighters circa 1990-2003. He beat outstanding fighters in between middleweight and heavyweight. Like Hopkins, Toney is a certifiable Hall of Famer. Collectively Hopkins and Toney entered their fights with Jones 66-1-2, and it's doubtful that combined they won six of the 24 rounds. And defeating a guy like Ruiz who was 50 pounds bigger than any of his previous opponents far exceeds any pound for pound accomplishment of Mayweather.

    In my opinion, Jones knocking out Virgil Hill with a single body shot and dominating Hopkins, Toney and Ruiz the way he did gives him a stronger claim than Mayweather to being "TBE.” Floyd has nothing on his record to compare to that, no way, no how. In order to make the case for Mayweather all you can say is he never lost, but there's no Hopkins, Toney or Ruiz-like feat on Floyd's resume. Had Jones retired after beating Ruiz, he would've had a legitimate case to be considered among the five greatest pound-for-pound boxers/fighters in history. This is a claim which Mayweather couldn't even make jokingly.

    And to those who say Jones ducked light heavyweight Dariusz Michalczewski because he feared him, wake up and smell the coffee. Michalczewski wouldn't fight outside Germany or Poland. After getting hosed out of a gold medal at the 1988 Olympics in Seoul, Roy feared leaving the United States because he didn't trust the foreign judges. Mayweather won't even leave the MGM Grand in his hometown of Las Vegas.

    At their respective bests, Roy Jones took more risks and beat greater fighters. He was a once in a lifetime talent like Muhammad Ali and Sugar Ray Leonard and I just can't say that about Floyd Mayweather.

    Jones said.....

    “The great thing today is it don’t matter what anyone says or what anyone writes, you can type 'sickest boxing highlights' into YouTube or Google and you see Roy Jones Junior doing his thing. Nobody can change your mind after you see that. That is pound-for-pound! I did what I did – it happened – it is a fact….You can watch me side-by-side with anyone and it’s not close."

    I don't know about all of that, but side-by-side the debate between Jones and Mayweather goes to Jones. The case for Mayweather rests on him being undefeated, but many other pound for pound greats would've blazed through his opposition and gone undefeated too. That cannot be said about Roy Jones, because we know there are some all-timers who wouldn't beat Hopkins and Toney. Not to mention the select few light heavyweight champs who might beat the John Ruiz that Jones fought.

    Sadly Roy fought on too long past his prime and, as he once proclaimed, many forgot. But Roy's conclusion that he was a greater fighter than Mayweather is correct.

    Frank Lotierzo can be contacted at GlovedFist@Gmail.com

    Check out more boxing news on video at The Boxing Channel.



  • #2
    Roy was greater and more skilled as a boxer/fighter than Floyd. There's really no debate on this. Floyd was smart and great but not in Jones' class.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by GlovedFist View Post
      Roy was greater and more skilled as a boxer/fighter than Floyd. There's really no debate on this. Floyd was smart and great but not in Jones' class.
      I totally agree Frank. Roy had the faster hands and in his prime was as close to unbeatable a fighter as I've ever seen. And when motivated, like the second fight against Montell Griffin and the Virgil Hill fight, Roy was something special and so fun to watch. That aggressive Roy that we saw in those two bouts (and some others) is a fighter that I don't think anyone who has come along the last 30 years could compete. For the generation of the 90's to present, Roy Jones Jr. is TBE (and Mayewather is the best businessman).

      Comment


      • #4
        Roy could do it all. Mayweather could not. Another great title Frank.
        Last edited by Kid Blast; 02-10-2018, 01:59 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          I've never been the biggest Jones advocate but side by side with Mayweather...your eyes don't lie.

          Comment


          • #6
            A prime Roy Jones is probably greatest spectacle I've ever witnessed in the ring .... He was as close to the Pied Piper of boxing as anyone in history.

            Jones was uniquely gifted in ways that dwarfed Sugar Ray Leonard, and Floyd Mayweather. But I like Floyd and Ray better because they were better....they were winners and they did it with smarts ...determination...and unrivaled dedication to thier craft... Include Caesar Chavez and Ricardo Lopez in that group as well. ... For all of his mutant speed, supernatural reflexes and access to some kind of arcane sorcery Jones only fought cab drivers....when he fought top boxers like a prime Bhop and James Toney he looked very average...no special effects ....neither of those fights are very interesting or demand a nostagic trip to rewatch on you tube. And Jone's phobia of facing his rivals in Europe was nearly paralyzing to his legacy. Floyd fought nearly 3 times as many hall of famers...and when his abilities began to dwindle amid a plethora of injuries, Floyd still got an extra decade at the top just by using mind over matter. Yes Jones Blazed brightly for a little while... A true superstar ...a physical phenom, then....when he woke up as a mere mortal... The man had no clue how to cope on equal terms with his peers. While Floyd continued to excel...I think that says a lot.

            Comment


            • #7
              Brownsugar....you made some good points. However, I disagree with you regarding Hopkins & Toney. Roy lapped them and those fights weren't thrilling it was because Roy was so spectacular. I don't think from a skill vantage point I don't think Floyd was in the class of Ray or Roy....not that many are. I'll cede Floyd was a better manager but to my intuition not nearly the fighter that Leonard & Jones were. And Leonard has nothing on his resume that rivals Jones win over Ruiz who'd only lost to Holyfield and Tua at the time and even scored a win over Holyfield.

              Comment


              • #8
                Ah, drop a salacious title down and all the “experts” (throw away scrutiny and) come out of the woodwork.

                Then it’s like groundhog day around here.



                And, when I say groundhog day . . . . .

                I really mean groundhog day.



                You see, the very same *story has already been floated (and debunked) here before.

                By the very same author.

                http://www.thesweetscience.com/forum...oyd-Mayweather



                Please note how, 3 years previous when the very same story was floated, the subject was dealt with; within the *above thread/link.

                Including, this post here . . . . .

                http://www.thesweetscience.com/forum...ll=1#post83888




                BrownSugar is keeping it real.

                Big up.



                By the way, I actually prefer Roy’s personality over Floyd.

                Really loved his attacking/flamboyant styles and all the other stuff when he was on top of his game.



                But . . . . .

                Just as “experts” often overlook facts because of what they are and how they get in the way of a good story; them facts are still facts.

                As such, anyone bagging out Floyd for cherry picking and/or claiming he can't box as good as Roy, needs to have a good/long look at Roy’s record and the facts; before claiming Roy is better.

                As I did in the above link.




                Happy to receive facts (and reasonable opinions) about how anything I have written is incorrect.



                All the best.



                Storm.

                 

                Comment


                • #9
                  I find myself occasionally repeating myself also.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Amazing how Mayweather has hoodwinked a generation of fans. And not just casual fans either. Weak opposition? Where are the greats on Floyd's record? Mosley, 8- years after Forrest did it twice? Cotto, three years after Pacquiao did it to a better version more impressively. Canelo before he flowered? Marquez, by duping a featherweight on the scale on the day before the fight? Ricky Hatton? Okay, if that's equal to Hopkins or Toney...but only in your world. Floyd beat one outstanding guy in his prime - Corrales and had to fight Castillo twice to beat him once and he clearly lost the first fight. Mayweather is the greatest salesman and con in boxing history. Yes, excellent boxer with outstanding fundamental and basics and surely one of the top 50 pound for pound fighters ever........but never had a night during his career where I came away saying damn....I've never seen anything like that before.

                    I've been a boxing junkie since I was 5-years old and can easily recall where I was the night Frazier beat Ali and Ali beat Frazier & Foreman. and the same applies to Duran-Buchanan, Duran-Leonard, Leonard-Hearns, Leonard-Hagler, Sanchez-Lopez, Sanchez-Gomez......and countless others. But the Mayweather fights just don't stand out except for maybe Gatti. Sadly Floyd knows if he stays outta the public eye he'll be forgotten because other than his antics he wasn't as memorable as he wants to think. Now he teases about doing MMA....just to remind us he passed through.

                    Sorry Gentlemen.....Jones was superior to Mayweather and if you compare them 50-fights in.....it is no contest.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by brownsugar1 View Post
                      A prime Roy Jones is probably greatest spectacle I've ever witnessed in the ring .... He was as close to the Pied Piper of boxing as anyone in history.

                      Jones was uniquely gifted in ways that dwarfed Sugar Ray Leonard, and Floyd Mayweather. But I like Floyd and Ray better because they were better....they were winners and they did it with smarts ...determination...and unrivaled dedication to thier craft... Include Caesar Chavez and Ricardo Lopez in that group as well. ... For all of his mutant speed, supernatural reflexes and access to some kind of arcane sorcery Jones only fought cab drivers....when he fought top boxers like a prime Bhop and James Toney he looked very average...no special effects ....neither of those fights are very interesting or demand a nostagic trip to rewatch on you tube. And Jone's phobia of facing his rivals in Europe was nearly paralyzing to his legacy. Floyd fought nearly 3 times as many hall of famers...and when his abilities began to dwindle amid a plethora of injuries, Floyd still got an extra decade at the top just by using mind over matter. Yes Jones Blazed brightly for a little while... A true superstar ...a physical phenom, then....when he woke up as a mere mortal... The man had no clue how to cope on equal terms with his peers. While Floyd continued to excel...I think that says a lot.
                      Agreed

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Part 1


                        Frank you’re funny.

                        I usually like your work.



                        This one, it’s not bad for a controversy piece.

                        But (if you're claiming Jones is a better boxer than Floyd beyond it being merely an opinion, then) you're clearly not thinking clearly on this one.



                        People often don’t like to admit how biased they are for/against Floyd.

                        So, it will work and probably find agreement with those that don’t know boxing really well and/or how to explain themselves.



                        Aside from the fact that what you wrote is essentially the same piece and before . . . .

                        Very few of the points I raised previously within the links of my above post #8 (as to why Roy’s career probably needs more scrutiny from anyone universally claiming he’s a better boxer than Roy) have been addressed.
                        SILLY

                        That they're now 3 years outstanding whilst the same arguments are forwarded is not a surprise for me.



                        In order for anyone (other than a cheerleader) to follow you into deep waters and drown on this subject (of Roy easily being a better boxer than Floyd) I will have to see a rational/meaningful response to the considerations/questions I raised in my below/above linked posts.

                        You have (twice now) managed to write quite an extensive piece on almost everything but the points/facts I raise.

                        So I am hoping it is not too much to ask for someone to address all the outstanding points I raised with your claims 3 years ago.



                        I will again post (just a few of) those questions below (within this post) for your ease of perusal.

                        But, I suspect the reason they all went unaddressed 3 years ago in the similar piece you wrote, is due to what I write above in my post #8 about facts; “facts are still facts”.

                        Even if they get in the way of a good story.



                        So, I won’t lose too much sleep on the probability that the questions I raised previously probably still won’t all be meaningfully addressed here.


                        And, if they don’t, that’s OK too.

                        Because then its just an opinion; that Jones was better than Floyd.

                        Not fact.



                        And, you're entitled to (write about) your opinion.




                        But I should say, the value of how others perceive your opinion may decrease with statements like these . . . .
                        silly
                        Frank, post #7;and Leonard has nothing on his resume that rivals Jones win over Ruiz who'd only lost to Holyfield and Tua at the time and even scored a win over Holyfield”.


                        Really?

                        What an extraordinary statement from a boxing writer.



                        So, there’s nothing on Leornard’s resume that rivals Jone’s win over Ruiz (one of the most average heavyweights there was) eh?

                        For now, I will leave the fact that many cheerlearders let you off this atrociously outrageous comment.



                        How about Leonard’s successful revenge bout against one of the best boxers of all time; Roberto Duran?

                        Also, how about Leonard coming out of retirement and beating Hagler, one of the best middleweight boxers of all time?



                        Jone’s win over Ruiz is laughable compared to those 2 achievements.

                        And that is why they are rememebered and referenced as truly legendary fights much, much, more than Jone’s win over Ruiz.



                        I agree Floyd has benefitted from some clever and timely matchmaking.

                        Not many champions don’t.



                        Roy Jones Junior included.

                        Moving up in weight (as Jones has) sometimes allows fighters to escape the competition where they were.



                        Moving up in weight (particularly for really fast middleweight fighters like Jones) sometimes gives them the same degree of (albeit different kind of) advantage, as a fighter fighting an opponent whom is lighter.

                        Jones knew this.



                        Here are some of the guys Jones didn’t fight at middleweight.
                        silly
                        A) Sven Ottke.

                        B) Julian Jackson.

                        C) Nigel Benn.

                        D) Chris Eubank.

                        E) Dariusz Michalczewski.

                        F) Michael Nunn.

                        G) Frankie Liles.

                        H) Gerald McClellan.

                        I) Steve Collins.


                        Now I know you have excused Roy from facing a few there I mention.

                        But even if we overlook your explanations for those you have excused, it still leaves a very long list; particularly to claim that the middleweight person whom has not fought all those guys when they were champion is somehow a better boxer than Floyd.

                        That “A” - “I” list there of 9 guys Jones didn’t fight is perhaps even longer than those Floyd was said to duck.


                        That’s a lot of ducking to overlook.

                        Especially given how (a part of your argument is that) Floyd gets no free pass for (not ducking, but actually) fighting the equivalent in his weight when they're old.

                        Where are the 9 welterweight champions Floyd never fought?

                        What is the count of world champions that Jones faced compared to Floyd?



                        You see, Roy arguably ducked (if not more than {which is really the case} then {to make your argument easier for you} just) as much as Floyd.

                        Yet, Floyd remains undefeated.

                        Furthermore, Floyd has fought (at a higher level of competition than Roy) and for much longer.



                        Roy has undoubtedly be/dazzled us more; some of his performances were off the chart.

                        However, that was all before Balco crumbled.

                        After Balco crumbled his otherworldly speed/reflexes - that made a mockery out of the traditional boxing fundamentals that were intilled into many great champions - went AWOL.



                        Please recall what I wrote here . .
                        SILLY

                        One should be careful about being bedazzled - to the point where objectivity, scrutiny, and common sense is thrown out the window - with impressive reportiores.

                        And a good example of throwing objectivity, scrutiny, and common sense out the window is evidenced by your above-mentioned comments that place Jone’s win over Ruiz above those of Leonard’s wins over Duran and Hagler.



                        Another good example of throwing objectivity, scrutiny, and common sense out the window is; Jones defence of all 6 titles he held - against Glen Kelly.

                        That defence itself;
                        Silly text editor
                        A) Took place whilst many other far better light heavyweight fighters were around.


                        B) Is a far greater crime (especially when we consider all Jones didn’t fight at 160) than any defence Mayweather has made.


                        I love Roy as a fighther and commentator.

                        But facts are facts.



                        Jones, (only for a brief amount of time compared to Floyd and only provided Jones fought competition that was way below his level) was a unorthodox marvel in the way he deployed his skills, reflexes, and speed.

                        No more than Naseem Hamed though.

                        In fact, an argument can be made that Hamed faced better competition; but that is another story.



                        Both Hamed and Jones were highly unorthodox and absolutely sensational in how that unique exceptionalism entertained.

                        And that entertainingly unique exceptionalism often misled people, fans, and writers, to confuse objectivity with subjectivity.



                        When Roy was on his game and blowing out guys like;
                        Silly text editor
                        A) Glen Kelly: whom Jones (extremely) questionably - and whilst other far better light heavyweight fighters were around - defended 6 titles against.

                        B) Derrick Harmon: whom Jones questionably defended 4 titles with.

                        C) Richard Hall: whom Jones questionably defended 3 titles with.

                        E) Vinny Pazienza (IBF Super Middleweight title).



                        He did look sensational.

                        And, yes, he did “bedazzle” against Ruiz.

                        But, all those guys simply are not in the same league as (even some of) the champions Floyd beat.



                        This is why all the questions I raised with your same piece/argument 3 years are still, even today, largely unanswered with fact.



                        Even if we ignore (what you overlook as you advance your claims) both;
                        Silly text editor
                        A) How Pacquaio/Roach made Cotto dangerously come down in weight; whereas Floyd did not.


                        B) All Pacquaio himself did (as evidenced by Roach himself) to destroy the first/earlier offer Floyd made to fight him; when Pacquaio was claimed to be in his prime.


                        In order to accept your argument that Floyd waited until the time was right to fight Cotto and Pacquaio. . . . .

                        There is still a really long list of well known top fighters and champions that Floyd fought/beat, of which there is no equal for Jones.



                        And remember (if, in being kind to your cause, we accept your questionable argument that Floyd cherry picked/ducked his way through a significant portion of his career) Jones was still just as proficient at ducking and cherry picking as you claim Floyd was.

                        The above “A” - “I” list of 9 really well known and top middleweight fighters that Jones didn’t fight is testament to that fact.



                        Whom - on Jone’s opponent list - is the equivalent of Floyd’s fight with Pacquaio?

                        Jones was either running up weight divisions or claiming other reasons for not fighting opponents in his weight division that had won even ¼ of the world titles as Pacquaio.


                        Sure, (provided we accept your propositions and throw objectivity, scrutiny, and common sense out the window) like you (when looking at Jones and comparing him to Mayweather) we can all bag out Floyd for being timely with some of his most legendary opponents.

                        But at least Floyd actually/eventually faced them.



                        Whom on Jone’s record has he even fought - let alone beat - that had won and/or unified as many world titles as Pacquaio when he fought them?

                        Whom on Jone’s record has he even fought - let alone beat - that had won and/or unified as many world titles as Oscar when he fought them?



                        If Canelo goes onto to beat Triple - as many say he will - Floyd will have a completely anhiliating win over him.

                        And, Floyd achieved that as a veteran; whilst he was fighting guys that were fighters of a caliber way past Roy.

                        Berto (remember how much Floyd was bagged for fighting him?), whom was Floyd’s penultimate opponent, is still way, way, beyond the caliber of fighter that Roy is facing in his twilight years.


                        End Part 1





                        Cheers,

                        StormCentre



                         

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Part 2


                          If Canelo goes onto to beat Triple - as many say he will - Floyd will have a completely anhiliating win over him.

                          And, Floyd achieved that as a veteran; whilst he was fighting guys that were fighters of a caliber way past Roy.

                          Berto (remember how much Floyd was bagged for fighting him?), whom was Floyd’s penultimate opponent, is still way, way, beyond the caliber of fighter that Roy is facing in his twilight years.



                          In fact, Berto’s caliber is probably representative of the average fighter Jones faced all throughout his career.

                          So, as we can all see, the claim Jones was a better boxer than Mayweather is based on opinion.

                          Not facts.



                          Where are the guys on Jone’s record like; DeLaHoya, Marquez, Corrales, Hernandez, Gatti, Judah, Sosa, Mitchell, Mosely, Cotto, Alvarez, and (whom many claim was the best welterweight ever) Pacquaio?

                          And, don’t laugh at Judah.

                          Zab Judah’s accomplishments (even at the time Floyd fought him) are still a cut above the the average fighter Jones faced (or even didn’t face) all throughout his career.



                          And remember, if we accept your argument that Floyd cherry picked/ducked, then . . . . .

                          Jones was just as proficient at ducking and cherry picking as you claim Floyd was.



                          So . . . . .

                          Therefore, even if Floyd cherry picked and ducked his way through all his fights (meaning, we ignore Mayweather’s absolute brilliance and dominance as “Pretty Boy”; where his skills/reflexes and fundamentals were - if not better than -then, easily equal to Jones; against far better competition); the fact that no-one (still after 3 years) cares to adequately explain (with the same level of scrutiny that’s applied to Mayweather) how Jones supposedly didn’t pick/duck his way through his fights - whilst there is still such a long and obvious list of champions that Jones never faced - not even when they were old and over the hill (like Floyd is said to have done throughout all his career) means . . . .

                          That (at best for your argument) both guy’s proficiency in cherry picking and/or ducking cancels each other out.

                          And, that’s only at best for your argument if we totally disregard how much more Jones completely ignored almost all the relevant contenders/champions at 160; whereas Floyd fought most of them at 147.



                          So, then (at best for your argument; pretending that both guy’s proficiency in cherry picking and/or ducking cancels each other out) the question is . . . .

                          Where are the guys on Jone’s record that rival/equal well known and/or top level fighters Floyd has faced like;
                          SILLY
                          1) DeLaHoya.

                          2) Marquez.

                          3) Corrales.

                          4) Hernandez.

                          5) Gatti.

                          6) Judah.

                          7) Sosa.

                          8) Mitchell.

                          9) Mosely.

                          10) Hatton.

                          11) Castillo.

                          12) Cotto.

                          13) Alvarez.

                          14) Pacquaio; whom many claim was the best welterweight ever.



                          Where are they?

                          Where are the guys on Jone’s record that rival/equal well known and/or top level fighters that Floyd has faced; as per the above-mentioned 14?



                          Take away Griffin, McCallum (past his prime), Hill , Hokins and (a weight depleted) Toney (from Jone’s record) and what have you got?

                          Roy beating up on guys like Ruiz, Pazienza and Kelly; whilst high and speeding on Balco's "cream" like a video player stuck on fast forward.

                          Then he runs into Tarver and what happens?



                          Arguably, Tarver to Jones - was Castillo to Floyd.

                          Big difference in entertainment potential and outcomes there.

                          Tarver destroyed Roy.



                          Let’s look at (Jone’s win over) Toney; one of my favorite fighters.

                          To accept your argument (an active) Jone’s gets a free pass for fighting Toney when he is weight depleted . . . .

                          Yet, (an inactive) Floyd coming out of retirement does not for beating the all time great Marquez.



                          The suggestion Jones even comes close to Floyd - let alone is better - as a boxer is completely meritless, without fact, and purely an opinion.

                          I challenge anyone, any writer, any historian, and fan, to step up and explain/substantiate with facts how I have it wrong.



                          Your comments (in either the piece this thread refers to - or those you similaraly wrote 3 years ago) that allude to Jones fighting Hopkins in his prime are also questionable.

                          Hopkins was not in his prime when he fought Jones; and he later avenged the loss.

                          Aside from being far more accomplished than Jones; Hopkins himself was arguably in his prime (around the time) when he fought Trinidad, Oscar, and Pavlik.



                          Another (bedazzling) trick that Roy used to use was choosing the mandatory and/or opponent that suited him.

                          Roy would do this only to then claim that the others (some of which are listed above within the long list of guys Jones didn’t fight) had to wait and/or were fights that were too hard to make.

                          Sure, all those 9 guys were too hard to fight; whereas the Floyd V Pacquaio was easier to make.



                          Jone’s above-mentioned approach to avoiding dangerous contenders, whilst not a completely uncommon "trick", was still one that many boxing writers simply overlooked.

                          As they became awash with subjectivity and all the free passes to Jone’s fights.

                          Jones, for the most part, was able to bedazzle with smoke/mirrors like this because of the confusing luxury that holding so many belts presented.



                          Fans, writers, and others simply did not know enough about how the IBF and other rules worked, so . . . . . .

                          Unlike what happened when Floyd ascended through his career as Money Mayweather; no-one spoke up.

                          Not even when Jones defending all 6 titles he held against Glen Kelly.

                          Itself, surely a crime (against the pedigree of middleweight and light heavyweight history that guys like; Hagler, More, Foster, Robinson, LaMotta, Tunney, Monzon, Hopkins, Loughran, Duan, Hearns, Flowers, Toney, Fitzsimmons, Leonard, Zale, Hearns, Maxim, Ketchell, Basilio, Patterson, Mustafa Muhammad, Walker, Calzaghe, Ezzard Charles, Dempsey, Fullmer, Tiger, Sam Langford, and Greb, represent) that anyone rubbishing Mayweather’s achievements should be held accountable for.



                          How can Jone’s defence of all 6 titles he held against a guy like Glen Kelly be acceptable when;
                          Silly text editor
                          A) So many factually correct and better achievements Floyd has accomplished are not acceptable?


                          B) Many other opponents/champions existed that Jones never faced?




                          As soon as Jones ran into Tarver (arguably his most competent opponent that was not marginalized in some way) his aura of invincibility was over.

                          Tarver was somewhere around Jone’s 50th fight.

                          Prior to Tarver, Jones was defending various singular or unified versions of the light heavyweight titles agains guys like Griffin, McCallum, Frazier, Hill, Telesco, Hall, Grant, Harmon, and Clinton Woods.

                          Out of that batch of opponents Griffin and McCallum (and possibly a few others) arguably have the best creditials; and Jones fought them around the ~40 fight experience-point of his career.



                          However;
                          SILLY
                          Jones fought;
                          Silly
                          A) McCallum (way past his prime {further past his prime than Pacquaio was said to be when Floyd fought him}) for an interim version of the WBC light heavyweight title.


                          B) Griffin twice in succession for the WBC light heavyweight title; losing/winning once each.


                          Whereas;
                          Silly
                          A) Around the 30 fight mark Floyd was fighting/rematching guys like Castillo whom were no easy match; for the WBC lightweight title.


                          B) According to millions of fans and many writers, Floyd’s aura of invincibility was supposedly due to be shattered when he faced; Mosley, Cotto, Castillo, Hatton, Oscar, Alvarez, Pacquaio - all of which Floyd went onto fight/beat after Castillo.



                          Therefore,
                          Silly
                          A) A case can be made that around the 30 fight mark Floyd was fighting guys that were easily (better than, if not) the same level of competition that Roy faced at the 50 fight mark.

                          But unlike Roy, Floyd beat them all.


                          B) A case can be made that around the 30 fight mark Floyd was fighting guys that were (better than, if not) the same level of competition that Roy faced at the 40 fight mark, and rematching/beating the guys (Castillo) that gave him tough fights.

                          However, Roy, at the 40 fight mark, was already losing and winning whilst fighting guys that were (lesser than, but let’s just say they are) the same level of competition that Floyd beat at ~30 fights. This holds true unless you believe that Castillo was not the same caliber of fighter when he fought Floyd, as Griffin and McCallum were when Roy fought them.




                          At around 40 fights Floyd Mayweather beat Oscar DeLaHoya in a close fight for the WBC super welterweight title.

                          Before the fight, many boxing writers and fans were pretty sure Oscar would beat Floyd.

                          When Floyd won, many then said Oscar was washed up when Floyd fought/beat him.


                          Pacquaio later, after Floyd beat Oscar, went on to dominate/stop Oscar.

                          Pacquaio was a legend for doing that.


                          The reverse (excuse oriented) logic to that above-mentioned happened when Floyd fought/flogged a young Mexcian guy in his prime; Alvarez.

                          Alvarez, with all his fights/success, was then said to be too young/inexpereienced; when Floyd beat him.


                          Another curious hybrid version of the above-mentioned (excuse oriented and) bizarre logic happened when Floyd knocked out Hatton, who was in his prime.

                          Pacquaio later, after Floyd stopped Hatton, went on to dominate/stop Ricky.

                          Pacquaio was a legend for doing that.




                          And, we have a similar opinion based phenomena at work here with the Roy Jones and Floyd Mayweather comparisons that claim (without substantiation) that Jones was a better boxer.




                          If Oscar was washed up (when he fought Mayweather) then Floyd can not be very competent; as Oscar gave a good account of himself.

                          But Floyd is very competent because we know many years after beating Oscar he utterly dominated and embarrassed a guy that many think will beat Triple in their rematch.

                          And, Triple is the guy that everyone also saidFloyd was too scared to fight.



                          The hypocrisy surrounbding people’s opinions about Floyd is perhaps equalled only by the lack of substantiation that the opinion’s themselves carry.



                          Perhaps Oscar was to Floyd - what Tarver was to Jones.

                          It’s not an unfair comparison because . . . .

                          Floyd fought Oscar at around the 40 fight experience-point of his career; whereas Jones fought Tarver at around the 50 fight experience-point of his career.

                          So, that (comparison) favors Jones, as he was more experienced then.

                          Also, Oscar possessed the Olympic/amateur pedigree that many said lacked in Floyd’s opponents; as was the case for Tarver prior to meeting Jones.

                          Furthermore, Oscar (when he met Floyd) can be considered to be no more washed up than Tarver when Jones met him.

                          As, before meeting Jones Tarver had lost to Harding; whom probably won’t be invited to the hall of fame anytime soon.



                          So, let’s look at that; what happened?

                          Jones narrowly won the first fight with Tarver.

                          Then Jones rematched Tarver and was stopped.

                          Then Jones (after he was stopped by Johnson) again rematched Tarver and lost a unanimous decision.

                          Jones then took a little more than half a year off and came back and fought lesser known guys like; Prince Badi Ajamu and then later Anthony Hanshaw.



                          During a similar time frame Floyd beat Oscar.

                          Then Floyd knocked out Hatton.

                          Then Floyd retired for about 18 months and came back and beat both, Marquez and Mosley.




                          From all the above it should be pretty clear by now that;
                          SILLY
                          A) Any claim that Jones is a better boxer than Mayweather is an opinion and one that overlooks a lot of facts.

                          B) Floyd’s average opponent is of a higher class than Jones.

                          C) Whilst Roy’s consideration to rematch opponents that beat and/or strongly contest him is commendable; he still often loses to those opponents that trouble him. Sometimes in devastating ways.

                          D) Whilst Floyd’s consideration to rematch opponents that beat and/or strongly contest him is commendable; he never loses to them.

                          E) Roy often loses to those opponents that trouble him; sometimes in devastating ways that leave him knocked out cold and/or stretched out on the canvass.

                          F) Floyd never loses to rematched/other opponents; he simply never loses to them; and has never been knocked out cold and/or stretched out on the canvass.

                          G) If Floyd ducked (I say in reality Floyd’s ducking was way less then Jones, but to make it easy for your argument let’s say it was the same) then it was no more than Jones; for the record.

                          H) There is a reason that Floyd is undefeated and Jones is not that *goes to Jones not being a better boxer than Floyd.

                          I) A part of that *reason is the fact that very few seem to be willing and/or able to explain where the 9 welterweight champions are that Floyd supposedly never fought; to equal all those in middleweight Jones never faced?

                          J) Another part of that *reason is the fact that very few seem to be willing and/or able to explain the count of world champions that Jones faced in the context of those compared to Floyd?

                          K) That moving up in weight - as Jones did - sometimes allows fighters to escape the competition where they are (at middleweight); and that is clearly what happened with Jones.

                          L) Jone’s average opponent is of the class that Floyd is ridiculed for.



                          Furthermore, Frank, you (as a writer) should know better than to claim a win over Ruiz comes anywhere near Leonard’s wins over Duran and Hagler; because - as history has shown - a middleweight beating a heavyweight Ruiz has nothing on Leonard’s wins over Duran and Hagler.

                          Now, if (as Jones floated the idea) the heavyweight he beat was Tyson (not Ruiz) it may be a different story.

                          But Ruiz is not Tyson.

                          And, Jone’s win over Ruiz doesn’t come anywhere near Leonard’s wins over Duran and Hagler



                          I am not even sure that Jones was better then Leornard; but that is another story.



                          Please note that within this post I have not bothered with listing all the guys Roy didn’t fight at the other weights (including light heavyweight) that he campaigned at; which favors Roy and you with the comparison to Floyd.

                          As (aside from leaving out all whom Jones didn’t face at light heavy and other weights actually favoring Jones in any comparison to Floyd) for now, anyone claiming Jones was better than Floyd will have enough trouble explaining their claims within the context of why Jones didn’t face all the boxers at 160 that he never fought.

                          Also, I deliberately omitted all whom Jones didn’t face at light heavy and other weights becasue I don’t wish to tread on Roy’s career/reputation more than is necessary; to show you how many facts have been overlooked in the argument that Roy is a better boxer than Floyd.


                          Plus, as stated before, moving up in weight sometimes allows fighters to escape the competition where they are; and that is clearly what happened with Jones.



                          As a fan of the sport (despite what some may think) I am certainly not wed to Floyd.

                          But (even if we disregard your claim that Jone’s win over Ruiz surpasses Leornard’s wins over Duran and Hagler) only someone that does not understand boxing really well would objectively claim that Floyd is a lesser boxer than Roy.

                          Just the fact that almost all of Roy’s sensational style that provided the advantages for his wild successes relies upon techniques and strategies that have (not even) half the longevity of the style and skills Mayweather possesses, means your argument is based on opinion only.

                          Everyone knows that in boxing (even when you are matched lightly; as Jones has been many, many times) the greatest opponent and test is father time.

                          And, on that count Mayweather (again) wins hands down.



                          It would be interesting to see Roy judged by the same, sometimes excessively harsh, critique that Floyd is judged in these forums.

                          And, I suspect that;
                          Silly
                          A) Such a judgment would not be pretty for Roy.

                          B) Is precisely why all the questions I raised about your previous piece and its claims that suggested Roy was a better boxer than Floyd; have remained unanswered with facts for 3 years.



                          Therefore, until even that small list of above-mentioned anomalies are meaningfully addressed . . .

                          Any suggestion that Roy Jones is a better boxer than Floyd Mayweather is only opinion.

                          Not fact.



                          So, whilst I love Roy Jones too and appreciate your opinion, the fact that it is actually an opinion (amongst so many unanswered and glaring questions) means that . . . .

                          The suggestion Jones even comes close to Floyd - let alone is better - as a boxer is meritless, unproven, without fact, and purely an opinion.

                          I challenge anyone, any writer, any historian, and fan, to step up and explain/substantiate with facts how I have it wrong.



                          Come on boxing experts, historians, Queens, writers, and all others . . . .

                          Step up and show me clear, referenced, and substantiated push back; that proves Jones is a better boxer than Floyd.

                          I both welcome and love it.


                          Silly



                          Cheers,

                          StormCentre

                           

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                          • #14
                            Stormcentre, you sure know how to call a brother out.

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                            • #15
                              Storm....you can post all the grocery list you want......Jones was superior to Mayweather in every category except as a manager....and I highlighted that Roy said it for once. Wondered why it took him so long. Mayweather has hoodwinked an entire generation of boxing fans....no need to reply to anything else. If anyone thinks Floyd was greater than Roy....than I question if they know what they're watching.

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