English Español
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 11 to 19 of 19

Thread: The International Boxing Hall of Fame: Not High on my Bucket List

  1. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    2,260

    Re: The International Boxing Hall of Fame: Not High on my Bucket List

    Here is my point: If you are going to criticize the Hall, send Brophy a letter with the specifics. Calling it stale or saying you spent a lot of money is fine. What can the Hall do to improve itself? That's what I want to know.

    As for the article giving rise to these posts, I am in disagreement with much of it (especially the reference to Hauser) except the point about Ham Fisher with which I can well understand, but I don't get involved with that category. If I had my way, I would eliminate the Observer category, a spin-off of the Non-Participant category, that recognizes “print and media journalists, publishers, writers, historians, and artists."

    I'd focus on Boxers, managers, Trainers, referees, judges, cut men and those who have a more direct impact on the outcome of the fight But that's just me. I am more than happy to participate as I do and help the Hall as much as I can.

    As for what you spent, that's great. But as Arne points out, they need as much as they can get and depend on donations year around along with the gate receipts from the Induction Weekend.

    And spending on a sausage sub at Graziano's doesn't count but buying a Basilio Hero inside the Hall grounds does.. lol


    PS: Someone mentioned the Baseball Hall. Keep in mind that any comparison here must include the fact that Baseball Writers are far more strict when it comes to the use of steroids--Sosa, McGuire, Canseco. etc--thogh there are some signs of softening. As Larry Merchant said a few years ago, if a boxer was denied entrance to the Hall because of steroid use, that might just have an effect deterrent impact on others. Interesting argument that begs to be written about,
    Last edited by Kid Blast; 06-15-2017 at 03:47 PM.

  2. #12
    Senior Member oubobcat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Buffalo, NY
    Posts
    2,212

    Re: The International Boxing Hall of Fame: Not High on my Bucket List

    My remaining thoughts on the Hall of Fame:

    First, I have talked with Brophy on several occasions and must say he is passionate about the Hall. I do sense though, and maybe somebody can add some thought to this, that he is the sole decision maker. I am not saying regarding of who gets in the Hall but of all other decisions with the Hall. It is much needed to have other voices making suggestions and maybe making some changes to the Hall and how things are done. KO Digest is right in a way that it is somewhat stale. When is the last time anything Hall of Fame Weekend was done any differently (except for scaling back on things) or anything different happened throughout the year at the Hall. The way things are run are a little stale and maybe some new voices are needed to inspire a little change.

    As for the weekend itself, first of all a change to the voting process is needed. In regards to the modern category, expand that to a maximum of six. And yes a percentage based policy is needed similar to other Hall of Fames. I say six because well why limit the modern fighters to 3 when there could be more deserving candidates who come up in a year or maybe the argument for someone who has just missed has gotten stronger.

    Second, yes transparency is badly needed. First, why not disclose the votes? Other Hall of Fames do so. Second, why have just Hall folks (Brophy) tally the figures. I don't sense anything is being handled improperly but why leave that open for debate. Lets get two or three respected writers there to view the ballots as they are opened and have them report on the results when appropriate.

    But transparency goes another way to and that is in regards to who gets in the Hall. I fear that sometimes voting is more a popularity contest than based on credentials. Here is an example. Arturo Gatti was voted into the Hall in 2013. He was a very popular fighter and popular with the writers. Personally, my favorite fighter to watch. But is he a Hall of Famer? Actually, I do say yes. But putting him in the Hall opens the door for other action fighters to be considered and get voted in. Maybe they don't have the strongest resumes but their fights were can't miss and resulted in so much action in a sport where entertainment is so paramount at times that they get into the Hall with that merit being considered on top of what else they accomplished in their career. And with Gatti's induction opening the door Ray Mancini got in based on similar attributes in 2015.

    But there are others who deserve consideration when adding in the entertainment value provided in their career who are not remotely being considered. Compare the careers' for example of Gatti and Mancini to Kevin Kelley. He is a former featherweight titlist and all time great action fighter. He was in as many entertaining back and forth wars as Gatti and Mancini if not more. The best fight I ever saw, and this includes all Gatti wars, was Kevin Kelley vs. Ricardo Rivera in 1995. Check out this fight on youtube and put round 6 up against any historic round in the sport. There is the Alejandro Gonzalez fight, Derrick Gainer fight (unreal war) and as Larry Merchant said the Hagler-Hearns of the featherweight division in the Hamed fight. And many more...My point being that if Gatti and Mancini are in large part because of their all action fights (and some on credentials) then why is Kelley not getting an inkling of interest from the writers? We need to be more transparent is how the candidates are selected and voted for.

    My one final thought. Talking with both Bert Cooper and Junior Jones this weekend I found out something interesting. Neither were there on invite from the Hall. Okay so Cooper has a checkered past so I can see why the Hall maybe a little weary of extending an invitation. But Junior Jones? What a perfect weekend to have him there as one of Barrera's old opponents but the call never went out. Yet, he sat with me for an hour and talked with much joy about his career. I could tell he enjoyed seeing a passionate fan hear the stories as much as I enjoyed sitting there talking with him in one of the greatest experiences of my life.

    Junior Jones is not a journeyman but I think the Hall should invite on their dime more journeyman type fighters to the proceedings. For example, someone like Marty Jakubowski (just an example, there are thousands of other possibilities). Give these guys the honor and respect they deserve. Let them walk around the fans with the name tag proudly displayed and let them be mobbed by people who love and respect what they accomplished in the sport even if not on the highest levels. They would be legends in Canastota and get the recognition they deserve. And the fans would love it and love the opportunity to get to chat these fighters up. Its not just the big names the Hall should be honoring but as many fighters as possible who had the courage to get through those ropes and compete.

  3. #13
    Senior Member oubobcat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Buffalo, NY
    Posts
    2,212

    Re: The International Boxing Hall of Fame: Not High on my Bucket List

    My remaining thoughts on the Hall of Fame:

    First, I have talked with Brophy on several occasions and must say he is passionate about the Hall. I do sense though, and maybe somebody can add some thought to this, that he is the sole decision maker. I am not saying regarding of who gets in the Hall but of all other decisions with the Hall. It is much needed to have other voices making suggestions and maybe making some changes to the Hall and how things are done. KO Digest is right in a way that it is somewhat stale. When is the last time anything Hall of Fame Weekend was done any differently (except for scaling back on things) or anything different happened throughout the year at the Hall. The way things are run are a little stale and maybe some new voices are needed to inspire a little change.

    As for the weekend itself, first of all a change to the voting process is needed. In regards to the modern category, expand that to a maximum of six. And yes a percentage based policy is needed similar to other Hall of Fames. I say six because well why limit the modern fighters to 3 when there could be more deserving candidates who come up in a year or maybe the argument for someone who has just missed has gotten stronger.

    Second, yes transparency is badly needed. First, why not disclose the votes? Other Hall of Fames do so. Second, why have just Hall folks (Brophy) tally the figures. I don't sense anything is being handled improperly but why leave that open for debate. Lets get two or three respected writers there to view the ballots as they are opened and have them report on the results when appropriate.

    But transparency goes another way to and that is in regards to who gets in the Hall. I fear that sometimes voting is more a popularity contest than based on credentials. Here is an example. Arturo Gatti was voted into the Hall in 2013. He was a very popular fighter and popular with the writers. Personally, my favorite fighter to watch. But is he a Hall of Famer? Actually, I do say yes. But putting him in the Hall opens the door for other action fighters to be considered and get voted in. Maybe they don't have the strongest resumes but their fights were can't miss and resulted in so much action in a sport where entertainment is so paramount at times that they get into the Hall with that merit being considered on top of what else they accomplished in their career. And with Gatti's induction opening the door Ray Mancini got in based on similar attributes in 2015.

    But there are others who deserve consideration when adding in the entertainment value provided in their career who are not remotely being considered. Compare the careers' for example of Gatti and Mancini to Kevin Kelley. He is a former featherweight titlist and all time great action fighter. He was in as many entertaining back and forth wars as Gatti and Mancini if not more. The best fight I ever saw, and this includes all Gatti wars, was Kevin Kelley vs. Ricardo Rivera in 1995. Check out this fight on youtube and put round 6 up against any historic round in the sport. There is the Alejandro Gonzalez fight, Derrick Gainer fight (unreal war) and as Larry Merchant said the Hagler-Hearns of the featherweight division in the Hamed fight. And many more...My point being that if Gatti and Mancini are in large part because of their all action fights (and some on credentials) then why is Kelley not getting an inkling of interest from the writers? We need to be more transparent is how the candidates are selected and voted for.

    My one final thought. Talking with both Bert Cooper and Junior Jones this weekend I found out something interesting. Neither were there on invite from the Hall. Okay so Cooper has a checkered past so I can see why the Hall maybe a little weary of extending an invitation. But Junior Jones? What a perfect weekend to have him there as one of Barrera's old opponents but the call never went out. Yet, he sat with me for an hour and talked with much joy about his career. I could tell he enjoyed seeing a passionate fan hear the stories as much as I enjoyed sitting there talking with him in one of the greatest experiences of my life.

    Junior Jones is not a journeyman but I think the Hall should invite on their dime more journeyman type fighters to the proceedings. For example, someone like Marty Jakubowski (just an example, there are thousands of other possibilities). Give these guys the honor and respect they deserve. Let them walk around the fans with the name tag proudly displayed and let them be mobbed by people who love and respect what they accomplished in the sport even if not on the highest levels. They would be legends in Canastota and get the recognition they deserve. And the fans would love it and love the opportunity to get to chat these fighters up. Its not just the big names the Hall should be honoring but as many fighters as possible who had the courage to get through those ropes and compete.

  4. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    2,260

    Re: The International Boxing Hall of Fame: Not High on my Bucket List

    Quote Originally Posted by oubobcat View Post
    My remaining thoughts on the Hall of Fame:

    First, I have talked with Brophy on several occasions and must say he is passionate about the Hall. I do sense though, and maybe somebody can add some thought to this, that he is the sole decision maker. I am not saying regarding of who gets in the Hall but of all other decisions with the Hall. It is much needed to have other voices making suggestions and maybe making some changes to the Hall and how things are done. KO Digest is right in a way that it is somewhat stale. When is the last time anything Hall of Fame Weekend was done any differently (except for scaling back on things) or anything different happened throughout the year at the Hall. The way things are run are a little stale and maybe some new voices are needed to inspire a little change.

    As for the weekend itself, first of all a change to the voting process is needed. In regards to the modern category, expand that to a maximum of six. And yes a percentage based policy is needed similar to other Hall of Fames. I say six because well why limit the modern fighters to 3 when there could be more deserving candidates who come up in a year or maybe the argument for someone who has just missed has gotten stronger.

    Second, yes transparency is badly needed. First, why not disclose the votes? Other Hall of Fames do so. Second, why have just Hall folks (Brophy) tally the figures. I don't sense anything is being handled improperly but why leave that open for debate. Lets get two or three respected writers there to view the ballots as they are opened and have them report on the results when appropriate.

    But transparency goes another way to and that is in regards to who gets in the Hall. I fear that sometimes voting is more a popularity contest than based on credentials. Here is an example. Arturo Gatti was voted into the Hall in 2013. He was a very popular fighter and popular with the writers. Personally, my favorite fighter to watch. But is he a Hall of Famer? Actually, I do say yes. But putting him in the Hall opens the door for other action fighters to be considered and get voted in. Maybe they don't have the strongest resumes but their fights were can't miss and resulted in so much action in a sport where entertainment is so paramount at times that they get into the Hall with that merit being considered on top of what else they accomplished in their career. And with Gatti's induction opening the door Ray Mancini got in based on similar attributes in 2015.

    But there are others who deserve consideration when adding in the entertainment value provided in their career who are not remotely being considered. Compare the careers' for example of Gatti and Mancini to Kevin Kelley. He is a former featherweight titlist and all time great action fighter. He was in as many entertaining back and forth wars as Gatti and Mancini if not more. The best fight I ever saw, and this includes all Gatti wars, was Kevin Kelley vs. Ricardo Rivera in 1995. Check out this fight on youtube and put round 6 up against any historic round in the sport. There is the Alejandro Gonzalez fight, Derrick Gainer fight (unreal war) and as Larry Merchant said the Hagler-Hearns of the featherweight division in the Hamed fight. And many more...My point being that if Gatti and Mancini are in large part because of their all action fights (and some on credentials) then why is Kelley not getting an inkling of interest from the writers? We need to be more transparent is how the candidates are selected and voted for.

    My one final thought. Talking with both Bert Cooper and Junior Jones this weekend I found out something interesting. Neither were there on invite from the Hall. Okay so Cooper has a checkered past so I can see why the Hall maybe a little weary of extending an invitation. But Junior Jones? What a perfect weekend to have him there as one of Barrera's old opponents but the call never went out. Yet, he sat with me for an hour and talked with much joy about his career. I could tell he enjoyed seeing a passionate fan hear the stories as much as I enjoyed sitting there talking with him in one of the greatest experiences of my life.

    Junior Jones is not a journeyman but I think the Hall should invite on their dime more journeyman type fighters to the proceedings. For example, someone like Marty Jakubowski (just an example, there are thousands of other possibilities). Give these guys the honor and respect they deserve. Let them walk around the fans with the name tag proudly displayed and let them be mobbed by people who love and respect what they accomplished in the sport even if not on the highest levels. They would be legends in Canastota and get the recognition they deserve. And the fans would love it and love the opportunity to get to chat these fighters up. Its not just the big names the Hall should be honoring but as many fighters as possible who had the courage to get through those ropes and compete.


    Brophy) does not tally the figures; they are sent to an independent firm that does this. No debate in mind whatsoever. None!

    Otherwise very good points IMO, though I cannot say much about who gets in and who doesn't for obvious reason.

    I can say that this year I voted for Barrera, Holyfield, and Maske (31-1)

    I also voted for Tony DeMarco and Eddie Booker ---as I recall.

    One inherent issue is that when a fighter does not get in, it becomes more difficult in the future because others have become eligible. Still, I'd favor exclusivity over generosity any day of the week.

  5. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    2,260

    Re: The International Boxing Hall of Fame: Not High on my Bucket List

    Quote Originally Posted by oubobcat View Post
    My remaining thoughts on the Hall of Fame:

    First, I have talked with Brophy on several occasions and must say he is passionate about the Hall. I do sense though, and maybe somebody can add some thought to this, that he is the sole decision maker. I am not saying regarding of who gets in the Hall but of all other decisions with the Hall. It is much needed to have other voices making suggestions and maybe making some changes to the Hall and how things are done. KO Digest is right in a way that it is somewhat stale. When is the last time anything Hall of Fame Weekend was done any differently (except for scaling back on things) or anything different happened throughout the year at the Hall. The way things are run are a little stale and maybe some new voices are needed to inspire a little change.

    As for the weekend itself, first of all a change to the voting process is needed. In regards to the modern category, expand that to a maximum of six. And yes a percentage based policy is needed similar to other Hall of Fames. I say six because well why limit the modern fighters to 3 when there could be more deserving candidates who come up in a year or maybe the argument for someone who has just missed has gotten stronger.

    Second, yes transparency is badly needed. First, why not disclose the votes? Other Hall of Fames do so. Second, why have just Hall folks (Brophy) tally the figures. I don't sense anything is being handled improperly but why leave that open for debate. Lets get two or three respected writers there to view the ballots as they are opened and have them report on the results when appropriate.

    But transparency goes another way to and that is in regards to who gets in the Hall. I fear that sometimes voting is more a popularity contest than based on credentials. Here is an example. Arturo Gatti was voted into the Hall in 2013. He was a very popular fighter and popular with the writers. Personally, my favorite fighter to watch. But is he a Hall of Famer? Actually, I do say yes. But putting him in the Hall opens the door for other action fighters to be considered and get voted in. Maybe they don't have the strongest resumes but their fights were can't miss and resulted in so much action in a sport where entertainment is so paramount at times that they get into the Hall with that merit being considered on top of what else they accomplished in their career. And with Gatti's induction opening the door Ray Mancini got in based on similar attributes in 2015.

    But there are others who deserve consideration when adding in the entertainment value provided in their career who are not remotely being considered. Compare the careers' for example of Gatti and Mancini to Kevin Kelley. He is a former featherweight titlist and all time great action fighter. He was in as many entertaining back and forth wars as Gatti and Mancini if not more. The best fight I ever saw, and this includes all Gatti wars, was Kevin Kelley vs. Ricardo Rivera in 1995. Check out this fight on youtube and put round 6 up against any historic round in the sport. There is the Alejandro Gonzalez fight, Derrick Gainer fight (unreal war) and as Larry Merchant said the Hagler-Hearns of the featherweight division in the Hamed fight. And many more...My point being that if Gatti and Mancini are in large part because of their all action fights (and some on credentials) then why is Kelley not getting an inkling of interest from the writers? We need to be more transparent is how the candidates are selected and voted for.

    My one final thought. Talking with both Bert Cooper and Junior Jones this weekend I found out something interesting. Neither were there on invite from the Hall. Okay so Cooper has a checkered past so I can see why the Hall maybe a little weary of extending an invitation. But Junior Jones? What a perfect weekend to have him there as one of Barrera's old opponents but the call never went out. Yet, he sat with me for an hour and talked with much joy about his career. I could tell he enjoyed seeing a passionate fan hear the stories as much as I enjoyed sitting there talking with him in one of the greatest experiences of my life.

    Junior Jones is not a journeyman but I think the Hall should invite on their dime more journeyman type fighters to the proceedings. For example, someone like Marty Jakubowski (just an example, there are thousands of other possibilities). Give these guys the honor and respect they deserve. Let them walk around the fans with the name tag proudly displayed and let them be mobbed by people who love and respect what they accomplished in the sport even if not on the highest levels. They would be legends in Canastota and get the recognition they deserve. And the fans would love it and love the opportunity to get to chat these fighters up. Its not just the big names the Hall should be honoring but as many fighters as possible who had the courage to get through those ropes and compete.


    Brophy) does not tally the figures; they are sent to an independent firm that does this. No debate in mind whatsoever. None!

    Otherwise very good points IMO, though I cannot say much about who gets in and who doesn't for obvious reason.

    I can say that this year I voted for Barrera, Holyfield, and Maske (31-1)

    I also voted for Tony DeMarco and Eddie Booker ---as I recall.

    One inherent issue is that when a fighter does not get in, it becomes more difficult in the future because others have become eligible. Still, I'd favor exclusivity over generosity any day of the week.

  6. #16
    Senior Member oubobcat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Buffalo, NY
    Posts
    2,212

    Re: The International Boxing Hall of Fame: Not High on my Bucket List

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Blast View Post
    Brophy) does not tally the figures; they are sent to an independent firm that does this. No debate in mind whatsoever. None!

    Otherwise very good points IMO, though I cannot say much about who gets in and who doesn't for obvious reason.

    I can say that this year I voted for Barrera, Holyfield, and Maske (31-1)

    I also voted for Tony DeMarco and Eddie Booker ---as I recall.

    One inherent issue is that when a fighter does not get in, it becomes more difficult in the future because others have become eligible. Still, I'd favor exclusivity over generosity any day of the week.
    Thanks and for the record can't argue with your picks. Maske is another fighter who is falling short but shouldn't be. And you are correct in that when a fighter does not get in, it becomes tougher and tougher each year after given the current structure.

    I do have to go back to who tallies the votes. Who is the independent firm and why are the vote totals not disclosed? Who else is overseeing? For the record, I think Brophy is an honest guy but also a hands on guy. It is hard for me to envision that he is not involved in the vote tally process as hands on as he is in the whole process. I just think add some writers to witness the whole thing and take any potential perceived conflicts of interest out of the process entirely.

  7. #17
    Senior Member oubobcat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Buffalo, NY
    Posts
    2,212

    Re: The International Boxing Hall of Fame: Not High on my Bucket List

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Blast View Post
    Brophy) does not tally the figures; they are sent to an independent firm that does this. No debate in mind whatsoever. None!

    Otherwise very good points IMO, though I cannot say much about who gets in and who doesn't for obvious reason.

    I can say that this year I voted for Barrera, Holyfield, and Maske (31-1)

    I also voted for Tony DeMarco and Eddie Booker ---as I recall.

    One inherent issue is that when a fighter does not get in, it becomes more difficult in the future because others have become eligible. Still, I'd favor exclusivity over generosity any day of the week.
    Thanks and for the record can't argue with your picks. Maske is another fighter who is falling short but shouldn't be. And you are correct in that when a fighter does not get in, it becomes tougher and tougher each year after given the current structure.

    I do have to go back to who tallies the votes. Who is the independent firm and why are the vote totals not disclosed? Who else is overseeing? For the record, I think Brophy is an honest guy but also a hands on guy. It is hard for me to envision that he is not involved in the vote tally process as hands on as he is in the whole process. I just think add some writers to witness the whole thing and take any potential perceived conflicts of interest out of the process entirely.

  8. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    2,260

    Re: The International Boxing Hall of Fame: Not High on my Bucket List

    Good civil discussion

    Thanks

  9. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    2,260

    Re: The International Boxing Hall of Fame: Not High on my Bucket List

    Good civil discussion

    Thanks

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •