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Thread: Pernell Vs Floyd; a definitve comparison of skills

  1. #1
    Senior Member stormcentre's Avatar
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    Pernell Vs Floyd; a definitve comparison of skills

    Ladies & Gentlemen, the StormCentre - your much loved friend and social avenger for all things fair, just, and truthful, has been requested to put together a . .

    Pernell Whitaker Vs Floyd Mayweather; a definitive comparison of skills thread.

    So, this will be it.

    The above topic has caused a little bit of trouble in paradise lately so perhaps it is fitting to get down to the nitty gritty and do the real thing; designing, writing, and publishing from inside (rather than the 1st 2 from the outside; as most other boxing writers) the confines of this great website.

    The story and skill analysis/comparison will itself evolve on a daily basis with update notifications taking place here.

    The Floyd Mayweather V Pernell Whitaker skill analysis/comparison will include skill-set and evaluation factors such as (but not limited to);

    1) Previous champions and/or legends each fighter Floyd/Pernell has beaten, and how.

    2) Defence aspects that differentiate the 2 fighters. ie; does one (or both) guy have a fully integrated (or thereabouts) defensive means to simultaneously attack?

    Or is his/their defence - no matter how animated and brilliant - always exhibit a seam and/or juncture at whish point the transition from/to offence is clear?

    3) It will also include terms such "speed", "ring generalship" (or similar, perhaps covered in other ways) and "power".

    4) Balance.

    5) Offensive arsenal and success with it; regardless of power and KO's.

    6) KOs.

    7) Common opponents.

    8) Spartan lifestyle and impact (if any) on technical ability.



    Constructive suggestions and those that are prepared to have claims assessed, only;
    if you have something you think should be considered in relation to the Floyd Mayweather V Pernell Whitaker skill analysis/comparison (remember it is a comparison ultimately based on their skills; even though achievements and success may be considered in a secondary sense) please feed it in before the evolution of the;

    1) Skill-set and evaluation factors is complete.

    2) Mayweather V Pernell Whitaker skill analysis/comparison has commenced.


    StormCentre





    Comparison Category: Speed/Effectiveness of Attack.

    (Note: the StormCentre has opted for this category definition over just "speed", as this includes and/or allows for hand/foot speed, and other agility factors - plus it allows for different styles and facets of those styles; without necessarily excluding a comparison of the fastest hand speed).


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    Floyd Mayweather


    **********************

    Floyd Mayweather (Pretty Boy)

    **********************

    Mayweather V Corrales



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cW7oj7QosjA

    https://youtu.be/cW7oj7QosjA?t=47m40s


    0:39 seconds remaining in round 7; Left hook by Floyd.




    https://youtu.be/cW7oj7QosjA

    https://youtu.be/cW7oj7QosjA?t=58m51s


    1:37 minutes remaining in round 10; Left hook by Floyd.




    https://youtu.be/cW7oj7QosjA

    https://youtu.be/cW7oj7QosjA?t=59m32s


    0:55 seconds remaining in round 10; Double right hand lead, that also makes up some distance too.

    Rounds of interest in this fight are; 3, 7, 9, and 10.

    Commentary of Merchant, Foreman and Lampley repetitively praise Floyd's speed, ring generalship and overall skills in terms such as otherworldly.



    **********************

    Floyd Mayweather (Money May)

    **********************


    Mayweather V Mosley


    https://youtu.be/H35TyMPH4Zo

    https://youtu.be/H35TyMPH4Zo?t=29m57s


    1:24 minutes remaining in round 4; typical fast counter right hand (over his opponent's left) by Floyd, before Floyd exits under (his opponent's left) and out to his own right side; as a defensive precaution that also equates to an almost foolproof and clever use of reflexes, proprioception, speed and both, simultaneously, offensive and defensive maneuvering.

    (Note: Floyd was the aggressor for the majority of the fight)



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    Pernell Whitaker


    **********************

    Whitaker V Hurtado



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MF2FChh84_0

    The speed/effectiveness of attack comparison is almost pointless with this nominated video as Pernell displays very little of the savvy techniques and skills that are comparable to Floyd and he is known for.


    Please - all you cats that believe Whitaker has more skills than Floyd - send in your video examples and explanations.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------








    Comparison Category: General Assessment of Reference Fights.

    (Note: this category provides an overall skill and technique assessment of certain Mayweather and/or Whitaker fights (nominated or not).

    The Category and featured fights can also perform the function of a reference for the other categories to this Mayweather and Whitaker skill and technique assessment. For example, the (nominated) Whitaker V Hurtado fight can now be used within the above "Pernell - speed/effectiveness of attack" section.


    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Floyd Mayweather


    **********************

    Floyd Mayweather (Pretty Boy)

    **********************

    Mayweather V Corrales


    Please see above "speed/effectiveness of attack" section for examples relevant to that criteria. A general assessment of this fight is yet to come.



    **********************

    Floyd Mayweather (Money May)

    **********************


    Mayweather V Mosley


    Please see above "speed/effectiveness of attack" section for examples relevant to that criteria. A general assessment of this fight is yet to come.


    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Pernell Whitaker


    Whitaker V Hurtado


    OK, so looking at Whitaker V Hurtado, from the outset it’s clear that - whilst the fight constituted one of Pernell’s knockout victories and was nominated - this is not Pernell’s best work.

    In fact I am suprirsed that it was nominated; as - despite the win - it may very well be one of his worst technical performances.

    Nevertheless it was nominated and as such we must assess it.





    On many occasions with the Hurtado V Whitaker fight Pernell can be seen coming in and attacking with little regard to defence, or no defence at all.

    Which, considering Whitaker is heralded for his defensive wizardry - is remarkable.

    At other times Whitaker is off balance, out of position, and sometimes both swinging widly and missing.

    Then, on quite a few other occasions Pernell is easily hit as he is both coming in and going out.

    The issue here is that it is difficult to find a fight in Floyd’s catalogue where he makes the same mistakes and so consistently throughout a fight - particularly without adjusting.

    Whitaker’s fight with Hurtado (20-0-0 going in) was around about Pernell’s 42nd fight.

    By the same token Floyd was fighting Juan Manuel Marquez (50-4-1 going in); the same guy that gave Manny Pacquaio all he could handle over several fights before finally knocking him out in their last encounter.


    Readers can chose for themselves whom is the harder opposition, as all the StormCentre is doing is offering the unpopular and sometimes popular facts.


    Floyd’s fight with Marquez - technically speaking and skill-wise (as those 2 points are what this piece is mostly about) - was almost flawless.

    However it didn’t result in a KO victory like Pernell’s technically sloppy fight (as even the commentators concurred) with Hurtado.

    Now before anyone starts talking about weight advantages for Floyd when he fought Marquez please bear in mind that Hurtdao had campaigned mostly before, and also for a considerable time after, the Whitaker fight, as a light welterweight; despite fighting Whitaker at welterweight for his WBC title.

    For example;

    After the Whitaker fight: 9 fights later, after the Whitaker fight, Hurtado fought and lost to Kostya Tszyu as a light welterweight.

    After the Whitaker fight: additionally, 17 fights later (than the Whitaker fight) Diosbelyss was still fighting as a light welterweight when he fought Randall Bailey and Vivien Harris.

    Prior to the Whitaker fight: and, 6 fights prior to the Pernell V Diosbelyss fight Hurtado was - again at light welterweight - fighting Dezi Ford for the NBA light welterweight title; in Florida.

    Prior to the Whitaker fight: add, to it all that Pernell Whitaker - at the time of the Pernell V Diosbelyss fight (1997) - had already been fighting as a welterweight for around 9 fights; commencing at/around the time of Pernell Whitaker’s first fight with James “Buddy” McGirt (1993).


    Therefore, with respect to the the Pernell V Diosbelyss fight; Pernell was a fully fledged welterweight fighting, in Diosbelyss Hurtado, a light welterweight.

    This was, no doubt, a calculated risk to ensure the opportunity to fight Oscar for big time money was not (too) at risk.


    Getting back to the Whitaker V Hurtado fight.

    At the start of the fight in round 1 Whitaker is dropped by a straight right hand courtesy of Hurtado; whom, aside from being a very good Cuban amateur boxer, was an undereated fighter coming into the contest with Pernell.

    Diosbelyss Hurtado is probably a classic example of a really good amateur Cuban boxer that defects to America with little (or not enough) understanding of how the world, particularly the business world, operates. And, then - through the need to earn money for a living and various other influences - takes chances and/or is moved along at a professional fighting pace that he can't keep up to and/or adapt to; despite having Ronnie Sheilds and Lou Duva on his side.

    For instance, if you took Kostya Tszyu and Pernell Whitaker out of Diosbelyss’ career you would possibly have a guy on his way to becoming a Joel Casamayor.

    Still, that’s another story.

    A fighter often has to take the opportiunities that present themselves when they do so; as, in this game, it’s rare that the opportunities are successfully planned upon and delivered when expected and ready.


    Back to technical and skillset analysis of the Whitaker V Hurtado fight.

    • In round 2 at about the 1:39 time remaining mark we see Pernell exchanging with Hurtado whilst Hurtado is close to and/or against the ropes.

    >> As Pernell carelessly attacks and exchanges, Hurtado also obliges him and connects, resulting in Pernell’s left knee touching the canvass.

    >> Despite how it appears that this was caused by Hurtado’s left hook (as Pernell, in what may be considered an unusual move for him 10 fights previous to this, failed to move his head and/or both bring his right jab/hand back to cover his face) the referee ruled the knockdown a slip; in favour of Pernell.

    >> That probably would not have been my ruling had I been the referee; but then the referee on the night probably didn’t have the luxury of re-watching the action via video either.

    • In round 2 at about the 1:19 time remaining mark we see Pernell back Diosbelyss up on the ropes, then dip down low (in what used to be a signature defensive move of Pernell’s) in anticipation of some proactive fire in Diosbelyss’ part.

    >> On this occasion Pernell’s instincts and moves paid off, as for the most part Hurtado missed with his punches.

    >> However, throughout the fight Pernell’s ability to wade in this easily and without receiving any incoming fire would increasingly diminish - a point that’s perhaps earmarked by the fact that Pernell - for all the defensive and elusive wizardry he showed and/or was capable of previously - was mostly unable to capatilse and tag Diosbelyss on this occasion; settling instead for the opportunity to wrong foot and embarrass Diosbelyss with a tap on the buttocks from behind his back.


    What followed from Pernell was;

    A) (Round 2; 0:50 time remaining); defenceless lunges and wild/missing swings; representing attacks.

    B) Pernell walking down Hurtado (but not always cutting the ring off) and displaying an attitude that was perhaps dimissive of how his technical approach was not as successful as it could be.

    C) (Round 2; 0:25 time remaining); Pernell failing to gauge distance and risk as perfectly as he may otherwise, and lunging in with defensively careless right jabs.

    D) (Round 2; 0:14 time remaining); Pernell - still following Diosbelyss around the ring and not effectively cutting it off - appears to have decided to try the right hook and left cross combination just as Diosbelyss was backing into the neutral corner. Both punches missed (right hook was blocked and left cross missed cleanly) in a testament to how effective Diosbelyss’ movement was troubling Pernell. Equally, Diosbelyss’ retaliatory punches were also (mostly unspectactularly) evaded by Pernell.

    E) (Round 2; 0:09 time remaining); Pernell now - after the above-mentioned right hook and left cross sequence - has followed Diosbelyss around to the blue corner where he tries the same 2 punch combination again and achives exactly the same result - with the exception being that on this occasion Hurtado tied Pernell up and then managed to land a close right hook of his own.

    Fighting this fight with these tactics was - as far as the judges were concerned - a very risky proposition.

    As Pernell becomes increasingly desperate to win and stop Diosbelyss, patterns similar to this and/or those that highlight just how defensively careless Pernell can be (via getting hit by Hurtado) are echoed throughout the fight - almost right up to the point where Diosbelyss is eventually stopped by Pernell.

    Examples of the aforementioned pattern (just in round 3) are as follows . . .

    • Round 3: Pernell comes out with 3 or 5 pawing jabs that don’t land but sometimes serve to position and preoccupy his opponent. Whitaker employed a similar tactic throughout the previous rounds also, and this is a useful (but sometimes *misunderstood dangerous) tactic that Floyd Mayweather was harshly *criticized for in the Pacquaio fight.

    • Round 3: 12:07 time lapsed on the video (no time remaining is shown at this point of the transmission) Whitaker, chasing Diosbelyss, lunges in with a right jab and left cross; missing both punches and blocking only 2 of the three punches Hurtado retaliates with.

    • Note how almost all of Pernell’s jabs (and many of his crosses) miss.

    • Round 3: 2:07 time remaining; Pernell (after just rushing a previous flurry that mostly missed, and then showboating during the following chase) executes another jab and cross comination; to which - as soon as it is recognized - Diosbelyss spins off to his left (Whitaker’s right) and diffuses it; precisely as Floyd was doing to Pacquaio’s attacks.

    • Round 3: 0:47 time remaining; Pernell, after chasing Diosbelyss around the ring, is finally in close to Hurtado but unfortunately fails to capitalize on the opportunity to land a meaningful combination of punches (missing almost all he throws) - which, in turn, allows Diosbelyss to exit out and off to Pernell’s right side. This sequence and example of, perhaps, Whitaker’s desperation, deterioration, and carelessness, is highlighted by a wild, swinging, and missed Pernell-right hook that momentarily has Whitaker facing in the opposite direction to where Hurtado is going.

    • What follows is Whitaker following Hurtado around the ring again (not really cutting it off) with 2 or 3 jabs that all miss; only to then lunge at Diosbelyss again with a left cross attempt that - again (surely to Oscar’s delight) - misses; mostly due to the miscalculation of distance. The result is Pernell off balance and out of position; again.

    • What follows is more of the same, where Pernell does not bother to set punches up and/or or make Diosbelyss pay on those increasingly rare times when he makes him cleanly miss.


    Should there be any disagreement in relation to how the above-mentioned pattern simply repeats itself over and over (with increasingly less technical ability displayed by Pernell) throughout the Whitaker V Hurtado fight until Diosbelyss is finally worn down and knocked out; I will go through round 4 right through to 11.

    Please let me know if you disagree, why, and offer the video sections as support to the claims.


    However, despite how great the win may have been for Whitaker, this is an assessment of technical skills and on that level this fight would surely be one of his worst.

    There is no doubt there are better fights that Pernell has performed technically better in; so please feel free to nominate them as this fight is embarrassing to use as a reference from "speed of attack" and "defensive" standpoints.


    But nonethlesss this was a nominated Pernell Whitaker fight to show how Pernell - allegedly - exhibits greater technical proficiency than Floyd.


    Insofar as that claim, I can find no other fight that Floyd features in where the above-mentioned technical mistakes - particularly those that represent unforced errors - are regularly featured in such high and increasing amounts.


    As such I would welcome anyone recommending a video of a Floyd’s fight (with the video sections to support the claims) where he does so; to even up the ledger.


    Perhaps we can understand why Pernell was so desperate, careless, and looking for the KO, in this fight by considering that both;

    A) Upon it rested the opportunity to fight Oscar and get paid the big Benjamins.

    B) Hurtado had campaigned mostly before and for some time after the Whitaker fight as a light welterweight, and as such the opportunity to fight for a legitimate title - albeit 1 weight class above his natural fighting weight - proved to be a temptation that was too much for the Cuban import.


    This is not the end of the evaluation, as I may look at another Whitaker fight, and then - of course - we can use the fights as a reference to the above-mentioned and other categories used to breakdown both Floyd and Pernell’s technical ability and skill levels.


    Please send in your examples.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------









    Note to TSS administrator - video upload function appears unhappy.
    Last edited by stormcentre; 05-30-2015 at 07:57 PM.

  2. #2

    Re: Pernell Vs Floyd; a definitve comparison of skills

    This is a common comparison/analysis by many. I will compare and contrast a few points while sitting in the urgent care waiting room.

    Let's get to it:

    Stance & Footwork: This is the obvious primary difference between the two fighters. Sweet Pea was a slick southpaw and Floyd a slick orthodox boxer. Both fighters have great footwork, but I think Whitaker's is slightly better. When Sweet Pea was in his prime and drug free he was practically untouchable from a footwork point of view. When he was cornered or went to the ropes, it was because he allowed himself to be put there, possibly setting a trap, resting, or show boating in the process. On the other hand, Floyd can stick and move but is more apt to sit in the pocket and be stationary more so than Whitaker. Floyd does not use the jab as much as Whitaker and is more of a in the pocket counter puncher, which is why he employs and uses the "Philly shell for long durations in most of his fights, especially against orthodox fighters. Both fighters have great balance, Sweet Pea has more of a vertical up and down dip/slip element in his tool box than Floyd.

    Offensive Repertoire:

    Floyd has more power and pop than Whitaker, but is less of a risk taker. Sweet Pea would let his hands go in combination as if he was a puncher, while Floyd rarely throws 3 punch combinations. Floyd has the better hook and cross in my opinion, while Sweet Pea's jab was arguably the best southpaw jab ever (no offense Winky Wright).

    Defense/Ring Generalship: Both fighters are two of the best defensive ring generals in boxing history. It is a draw in this category in my opinion, but based on my taste I prefer Floyd's defense skills because the Philly Shell allows him to counter punch better. Floyd can shoulder roll and counter with the right cross or catch the hook to the body and counter with the right uppercut for example. Sweet Pea's defensive maneuvers often left him out of position to counter. It's hard to counter when your knees are almost touching the ring mat. As previously mentioned, Whitaker's best defense was many times his superb footwork.

    Ring IQ: Both fighters are supremely intelligent chess players in the ring and can make adjustments on the fly. Floyd has a slight edge in this category and has been Bobby Fischereque, often being two or three sequences ahead of his opponent.

    Chin & Heart:

    Both Floyd and Pernell have great chins (punch resistance) and the heart of champions. Whitaker has been dropped by clean punches that landed, i.e. Roger Mayweather fight but showed great recuperative abilities. Floyd has been hurt two or three times Mosely, Corley, and Pac Man and was able to clear his head quite fast. He also has never officially been knocked down, slight edge to Floyd in my opinion.

    Showmanship:

    Floyd isn't much of a showman and simply goes into a fight to win at all cost, even if the fight is utterly boring. He is very flamboyant outside the ring but can be very boring inside the ring. On the other hand, Whitaker was a showman in every since of the word. He made up for his lack of power with his in the ring theatrics (dancing, posing, etc.).

    There is a lot more to add and I could have gone more in depth but I am on a phone in a urgent care waiting room. Overall, I rate Floyd Mayweather Jr. slightly above Pernell Whitaker. Both fighters have many similarities, but possessed their own unique styles and skill attributes.
    Last edited by Shoulder Roll Defense; 05-24-2015 at 07:19 PM.

  3. #3
    Senior Member stormcentre's Avatar
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    Re: Pernell Vs Floyd; a definitve comparison of skills

    Quote Originally Posted by Shoulder Roll Defense View Post
    This is a common comparison/analysis by many. I will compare and contrast a few points while sitting in the urgent care waiting room.

    Let's get to it:

    Stance & Footwork: This is the obvious primary difference between the two fighters. Sweet Pea was a slick southpaw and Floyd a slick orthodox boxer. Both fighters have great footwork, but I think Whitaker's is slightly better. When Sweet Pea was in his prime and drug free he was practically untouchable from a footwork point of view. When he was cornered or went to the ropes, it was because he allowed himself to be put there, possibly setting a trap, resting, or show boating in the process. On the other hand, Floyd can stick and move but is more apt to sit in the pocket and be stationary more so than Whitaker. Floyd does not use the jab as much as Whitaker and is more of a in the pocket counter puncher, which is why he employs and uses the "Philly shell for long durations in most of his fights, especially against orthodox fighters. Both fighters have great balance, Sweet Pea has more of a vertical up and down dip/slip element in his tool box than Floyd.

    Offensive Repertoire:

    Floyd has more power and pop than Whitaker, but is less of a risk taker. Sweet Pea would let his hands go in combination as if he was a puncher, while Floyd rarely throws 3 punch combinations. Floyd has the better hook and cross in my opinion, while Sweet Pea's jab was arguably the best southpaw jab ever (no offense Winky Wright).

    Defense/Ring Generalship: Both fighters are two of the best defensive ring generals in boxing history. It is a draw in this category in my opinion, but based on my taste I prefer Floyd's defense skills because the Philly Shell allows him to counter punch better. Floyd can shoulder roll and counter with the right cross or catch the hook to the body and counter with the right uppercut for example. Sweet Pea's defensive maneuvers often left him out of position to counter. It's hard to counter when your knees are almost touching the ring mat. As previously mentioned, Whitaker's best defense was many times his superb footwork.

    Ring IQ: Both fighters are supremely intelligent chess players in the ring and can make adjustments on the fly. Floyd has a slight edge in this category and has been Bobby Fischereque, often being two or three sequences ahead of his opponent.

    Chin & Heart:

    Both Floyd and Pernell have great chins (punch resistance) and the heart of champions. Whitaker has been dropped by clean punches that landed, i.e. Roger Mayweather fight but showed great recuperative abilities. Floyd has been hurt two or three times Mosely, Corley, and Pac Man and was able to clear his head quite fast. He also has never officially been knocked down, slight edge to Floyd in my opinion.

    Showmanship:

    Floyd isn't much of a showman and simply goes into a fight to win at all cost, even if the fight is utterly boring. He is very flamboyant outside the ring but can be very boring inside the ring. On the other hand, Whitaker was a showman in every since of the word. He made up for his lack of power with his in the ring theatrics (dancing, posing, etc.).

    There is a lot more to add and I could have gone more in depth but I am on a phone in a urgent care waiting room. Overall, I rate Floyd Mayweather Jr. slightly above Pernell Whitaker. Both fighters have many similarities, but possessed their own unique styles and skill attributes.
    Thanks SRD.

    Do you mind of I use a few of those categories (perhaps renamed, and perhaps not always completely agreeing with you) for the thread?


    Overall, mostly, I can't find any issue with what you have said there.


    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Let me make it clear here - as many that have been in this forum for a long time will know;


    1) I am a big (and I mean big) Pernell fan; love the guy. In fact, given he was a lefty Roach would have done well to look at how Pernell handled fast handed and slick fighters; as the tactics they used in the MayPac fight were all wrong.

    What Whitaker did with Chavez - before Chavez really started to decline, was undefeated (Chavez was 87-0-0 going in) - was absolutely awesome; win, draw (as it was) or lose.

    Pernell's fights with Nelson, McGirt, Ramirez, Nazario, Vasquez, Rodriguez, Trinidad, and Oscar; are some of my favorites.


    2) Despite popular belief; I am no Floyd nut lover.

    Yes, I think Floyd is easily better than Pacquaio. Yes I think Floyd is one of the best technical fighters, and that he doesn't deserve the crap that's loaded on him.

    But, there are other fighters I also think are better than Floyd; but they may not be as technically proficient as Floyd though. I do however also think it is crazy to senselessly hate on Floyd when - in fact - he is one of the greatest technical and defensive/offensive fighters of our generation; if not any generation.

    Anyone that has been in this forum for more than 5 years - such as BrownSugar, Shadow, D2 and some others can attest to the fact that I do not always back and support Floyd.

    Furthermore, (before Floyd's fights with Cotto and Maidana) I have written several detailed pieces on how (we think) Floyd can be beaten; some of those elements were employed by Maidana and Cotto. Reliance on a frequent jab is a laughable common misconception to beating Floyd; he loves working off his opponent's jab. Still, the subject of beating Floyd is for another thread. Currently he is unbeaten, and for good reason; he is self managed and no-one can beat him.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Anyway, I am saying all this because it will not bother me if Pernell wins the comparison; although I don't think he will.

    Still, my comparison will remain objective and published for all to see.

    Any controversial aspects of it will be - upon a reasonable request - explained.

  4. #4

    Re: Pernell Vs Floyd; a definitve comparison of skills

    Quote Originally Posted by stormcentre View Post
    Thanks SRD.

    Do you mind of I use a few of those categories (perhaps renamed, and perhaps not always completely agreeing with you) for the thread?


    Overall, mostly, I can't find any issue with what you have said there.


    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Let me make it clear here - as many that have been in this forum for a long time will know;


    1) I am a big (and I mean big) Pernell fan; love the guy. In fact, given he was a lefty Roach would have done well to look at how Pernell handled fast handed and slick fighters; as the tactics they used in the MayPac fight were all wrong.

    What Whitaker did with Chavez - before Chavez really started to decline, was undefeated (Chavez was 87-0-0 going in) - was absolutely awesome; win, draw (as it was) or lose.

    Pernell's fights with Nelson, McGirt, Ramirez, Nazario, Vasquez, Rodriguez, Trinidad, and Oscar; are some of my favorites.


    2) Despite popular belief; I am no Floyd nut lover.

    Yes, I think Floyd is easily better than Pacquaio. Yes I think Floyd is one of the best technical fighters, and that he doesn't deserve the crap that's loaded on him.

    But, there are other fighters I also think are better than Floyd; but they may not be as technically proficient as Floyd though. I do however also think it is crazy to senselessly hate on Floyd when - in fact - he is one of the greatest technical and defensive/offensive fighters of our generation; if not any generation.

    Anyone that has been in this forum for more than 5 years - such as BrownSugar, Shadow, D2 and some others can attest to the fact that I do not always back and support Floyd.

    Furthermore, (before Floyd's fights with Cotto and Maidana) I have written several detailed pieces on how (we think) Floyd can be beaten; some of those elements were employed by Maidana and Cotto. Reliance on a frequent jab is a laughable common misconception to beating Floyd; he loves working off his opponent's jab. Still, the subject of beating Floyd is for another thread. Currently he is unbeaten, and for good reason; he is self managed and no-one can beat him.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Anyway, I am saying all this because it will not bother me if Pernell wins the comparison; although I don't think he will.

    Still, my comparison will remain objective and published for all to see.

    Any controversial aspects of it will be - upon a reasonable request - explained.
    No problem, go right ahead.

  5. #5
    Senior Member stormcentre's Avatar
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    Re: Pernell Vs Floyd; a definitve comparison of skills

    Quote Originally Posted by Shoulder Roll Defense View Post
    No problem, go right ahead.
    OK - ta.

    Good breakdown by the way.

    I am not sure I would have previously agreed with you on footwork, as Floyd - particularly as Pretty Boy has excellent footwork and balance; but also, recently, as Money May proved everybody wrong that thought he had shot legs, by showing pretty good pins for a 38 year old - but after reading your breakdown I think I will make sure I go back and check.

    I do agree though, Whitaker was brilliantly skilled in the area of footwork.

    At the moment, for a comparison on speed I am looking for a the fastest single punch (I can remember) thrown by both guys.

    I will look at combinations later and if required.

    For Floyd I think the hook that he used to drop Corrales must be one of his fastest; please let me know if you think there is a better one.

    And, for Pernell I have not yet looked, and are therefore not yet sure - so please let me know if you can think of Pernell's single fastest punch whether or not it resulted in a KD/KO.

    Cheers.

  6. #6
    Senior Member The Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: Pernell Vs Floyd; a definitve comparison of skills

    TSS is back. Pleasure to see.

    Guys, I haven't contributed because my post would be crude because I don't have the necessary info to make a Shadow-worthy assessment (according to the standards I expect from myself as well as what I feel the forum deserves).

    Contrary to popular belief -- including the hopelessly ignorant and fallacious assumptions from feeble minded trolls/fans who really, truly owe a lot of people on this forum an apology -- I'm far from a "Flomo" or fan of the Floyd Mayweather, the man.

    But like Storm said, he does not deserve a fraction of the crap he takes. I don't see anyone showing disgust with Sergey Kovalev's repeated racist actions. Isn't that ironic.

    Mayweather's a flawed human being whose in-ring greatness we are privileged to enjoy. That's all there is to that.

    (I really have no emotional connection to any of these guys save for perhaps disgust with the hypocrisy regarding disregard for the truth as well as some blatant prejudice towards Al Haymon & Co.)

    What I am is a fan of the sweet science in its sweetest form -- and few practice this art better than Floyd Mayweather (who does not appreciate being called "Lil Floyd," by the way).

    So for the same reason, I'm not just going to talk out of my behind and say he's better than Whitaker because of personal preference, though I admire Mayweather more than Whitaker just on virtue of discipline and character.

    That said, I will be watching Whitaker and Chavez later and return with my take on their skills, tangible and intangible alike.

    I will return later or tomorrow with my assessment.
    Last edited by The Shadow; 05-25-2015 at 01:36 AM.

  7. #7
    Senior Member The Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: Pernell Vs Floyd; a definitve comparison of skills

    Sidebar: Just watched Mad Max, an Australian flick... Holy cow. What a waste. it took me 45 minutes before I somewhat understood what the hell was going on. At least the fine mama gave The Shadow a peck. Is this huge down under?

    Once we conclude this, I'd like to see an educated breakdown of Mayweather vs. Leonard.

    I know this is not going to be popular, but the more I study Leonard, the more overrated I feel he is. I will explain in due time.

  8. #8
    Senior Member stormcentre's Avatar
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    Re: Pernell Vs Floyd; a definitve comparison of skills

    The original Mad Max (was Mel Gibson's breakout flick) was a big hit; not that it was a great script or acting .

    And, not that it thrilled me either.

    But over here in Oz we tend to celebrate our own movies a bit easier, and I think that's because if we applied the same celebration/success standards for our movies as the USA and other countries do, most of our movies would not be celebrated; because they're usually not that good.

    The original Mad Max was like a clockwork orange kind of outback zombie show.

    This new release is really not that good as far as I and others that I know that have seen it.

    But, since it's Mad Max, there is no way that Australia will admit it's crap; unless it tanks out in the USA - which is not unlikely.

    It's kind of like the movie "Australia" that Nicole Kidman was in.

    Utter rubbish, but because she/it's an export of ours we won't admit it.

    We do seem to be - just up the road from me at the MovieWorld studios - doing OK with the Pirates of the Carribean though; starring Johnny Depp.

    That is when Depp is at the studio, and not shagging Heard, chasing Heard, arguing with Heard, and getting hassled out by our dumbass ministers for smuggling his dogs Pistol and Boo into the country.

    Depp seems to be quite a character, as, even off set, he's always wearing some kind of wacky - held together with pins and scarfs - costume; together with eyeliner and other makeup tricks.

    Each to their own I guess.

    Leonard; I tell you what Shadow, you must have big stones, to start discussions about Leonard being overrated.

    Don't get me wrong, I love a challenge too.

    But, if I had to bet I would say there are more fans out there that love Leonard more than both Floyd and Pac.

    Still, I will wait to hear the substance behind it later.

  9. #9
    Advanced Users brownsugar's Avatar
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    Re: Pernell Vs Floyd; a definitve comparison of skills

    [QUOTE=Shoulder Roll Defense;82828]This is a common comparison/analysis by many. I will compare and contrast a few points while sitting in the urgent care waiting room.

    Let's get to it:

    Stance & Footwork: This is the obvious primary difference between the two fighters. Sweet Pea was a slick southpaw and Floyd a slick orthodox boxer. Both fighters have great footwork, but I think Whitaker's is slightly better. When Sweet Pea was in his prime and drug free he was practically untouchable from a footwork point of view. When he was cornered or went to the ropes, it was because he allowed himself to be put there, possibly setting a trap, resting, or show boating in the process. On the other hand, Floyd can stick and move but is more apt to sit in the pocket and be stationary more so than Whitaker. Floyd does not use the jab as much as Whitaker and is more of a in the pocket counter puncher, which is why he employs and uses the "Philly shell for long durations in most of his fights, especially against orthodox fighters. Both fighters have great balance, Sweet Pea has more of a vertical up and down dip/slip element in his tool box than Floyd.

    Offensive Repertoire:

    Floyd has more power and pop than Whitaker, but is less of a risk taker. Sweet Pea would let his hands go in combination as if he was a puncher, while Floyd rarely throws 3 punch combinations. Floyd has the better hook and cross in my opinion, while Sweet Pea's jab was arguably the best southpaw jab ever (no offense Winky Wright).

    Defense/Ring Generalship: Both fighters are two of the best defensive ring generals in boxing history. It is a draw in this category in my opinion, but based on my taste I prefer Floyd's defense skills because the Philly Shell allows him to counter punch better. Floyd can shoulder roll and counter with the right cross or catch the hook to the body and counter with the right uppercut for example. Sweet Pea's defensive maneuvers often left him out of position to counter. It's hard to counter when your knees are almost touching the ring mat. As previously mentioned, Whitaker's best defense was many times his superb footwork.

    Ring IQ: Both fighters are supremely intelligent chess players in the ring and can make adjustments on the fly. Floyd has a slight edge in this category and has been Bobby Fischereque, often being two or three sequences ahead of his opponent.

    Chin & Heart:

    Both Floyd and Pernell have great chins (punch resistance) and the heart of champions. Whitaker has been dropped by clean punches that landed, i.e. Roger Mayweather fight but showed great recuperative abilities. Floyd has been hurt two or three times Mosely, Corley, and Pac Man and was able to clear his head quite fast. He also has never officially been knocked down, slight edge to Floyd in my opinion.

    Showmanship:

    Floyd isn't much of a showman and simply goes into a fight to win at all cost, even if the fight is utterly boring. He is very flamboyant outside the ring but can be very boring inside the ring. On the other hand, Whitaker was a showman in every since of the word. He made up for his lack of power with his in the ring theatrics (dancing, posing, etc.).

    There is a lot more to add and I could have gone more in depth but I am on a phone in a urgent care waiting room. Overall, I rate Floyd Mayweather Jr. slightly above Pernell Whitaker. Both fighters have many similarities, but possessed their own unique styles and skill attribefficiency ciency


    You wrote this Shoulder Roll? Its actually quite good.

    The thing about Floyd is, there are two or three different Floyds, the early Floyd, boxer puncher, and the current Floyd, Mr efficiency but is willing rumble occasionally. It sounds like you were talking about the current Floyd.

  10. #10

    Re: Pernell Vs Floyd; a definitve comparison of skills

    [QUOTE=brownsugar;82865]
    Quote Originally Posted by Shoulder Roll Defense View Post
    This is a common comparison/analysis by many. I will compare and contrast a few points while sitting in the urgent care waiting room.

    Let's get to it:

    Stance & Footwork: This is the obvious primary difference between the two fighters. Sweet Pea was a slick southpaw and Floyd a slick orthodox boxer. Both fighters have great footwork, but I think Whitaker's is slightly better. When Sweet Pea was in his prime and drug free he was practically untouchable from a footwork point of view. When he was cornered or went to the ropes, it was because he allowed himself to be put there, possibly setting a trap, resting, or show boating in the process. On the other hand, Floyd can stick and move but is more apt to sit in the pocket and be stationary more so than Whitaker. Floyd does not use the jab as much as Whitaker and is more of a in the pocket counter puncher, which is why he employs and uses the "Philly shell for long durations in most of his fights, especially against orthodox fighters. Both fighters have great balance, Sweet Pea has more of a vertical up and down dip/slip element in his tool box than Floyd.

    Offensive Repertoire:

    Floyd has more power and pop than Whitaker, but is less of a risk taker. Sweet Pea would let his hands go in combination as if he was a puncher, while Floyd rarely throws 3 punch combinations. Floyd has the better hook and cross in my opinion, while Sweet Pea's jab was arguably the best southpaw jab ever (no offense Winky Wright).

    Defense/Ring Generalship: Both fighters are two of the best defensive ring generals in boxing history. It is a draw in this category in my opinion, but based on my taste I prefer Floyd's defense skills because the Philly Shell allows him to counter punch better. Floyd can shoulder roll and counter with the right cross or catch the hook to the body and counter with the right uppercut for example. Sweet Pea's defensive maneuvers often left him out of position to counter. It's hard to counter when your knees are almost touching the ring mat. As previously mentioned, Whitaker's best defense was many times his superb footwork.

    Ring IQ: Both fighters are supremely intelligent chess players in the ring and can make adjustments on the fly. Floyd has a slight edge in this category and has been Bobby Fischereque, often being two or three sequences ahead of his opponent.

    Chin & Heart:

    Both Floyd and Pernell have great chins (punch resistance) and the heart of champions. Whitaker has been dropped by clean punches that landed, i.e. Roger Mayweather fight but showed great recuperative abilities. Floyd has been hurt two or three times Mosely, Corley, and Pac Man and was able to clear his head quite fast. He also has never officially been knocked down, slight edge to Floyd in my opinion.

    Showmanship:

    Floyd isn't much of a showman and simply goes into a fight to win at all cost, even if the fight is utterly boring. He is very flamboyant outside the ring but can be very boring inside the ring. On the other hand, Whitaker was a showman in every since of the word. He made up for his lack of power with his in the ring theatrics (dancing, posing, etc.).

    There is a lot more to add and I could have gone more in depth but I am on a phone in a urgent care waiting room. Overall, I rate Floyd Mayweather Jr. slightly above Pernell Whitaker. Both fighters have many similarities, but possessed their own unique styles and skill attribefficiency ciency


    You wrote this Shoulder Roll? Its actually quite good.

    The thing about Floyd is, there are two or three different Floyds, the early Floyd, boxer puncher, and the current Floyd, Mr efficiency but is willing rumble occasionally. It sounds like you were talking about the current Floyd.
    Yes Brown Sugar, I wrote my post lol. I can write, but I rarely go in depth on here. I am a father of two young boys and a Regional Director of the organization that I work for, so time is usally sparse. However, like a boxer with power that is rarely exihibited because they fail to "sit down" on their punches, I have literary "pop" when I "sit down" and focus on the topic at hand that I am writing about. You should know that, I have had a few quality post throughout the years, Radam G called me rookie of the year a few years back lol.

    You are correct in regards to Sweet Pea and Floyd. Floyd has different layers to his career in comparison to Pernell. The criteria that I used to assess both fighters is their overall skill set, tools in which they bring to the table. Floyd at 135 was a boxer-puncher at his best and sat down on his punches more. As he moved up in weight and suffered the hand hand injuries, he began to throw less combinations and take less risk. His mentality totally changed. The late Emanuel Stewart would always say how Floyd could have stopped certain fighters, but he lacked the mentality and killer instinct to do so. Think of the Mosely fight and the Cotto fight. Stewart thought Floyd could have stopped Cotto late.

    Sweet Pea was pretty consistent stylistically throughout his career. He was slick, but when you analyze his career you realize that he had the mentality of a boxer-puncher, but had a marginal amount of pop. Sweet Pea would sit on his punches so that you would have to respect him before closing the distance and to answer Storm's question, his jab was piston like and the best weapon that he had in his tool box. Floyd's lead left hook (Marquez fight) is unorthodox and laser fast, but it is his right cross that is his best weapon. The lead right cross, pull counter (cross), and his shoulder roll counter right cross are his bread and butter. Sweet Pea was 1-2 (jab/cross) heavy fighter that didn't throw a lot of hooks consistently. Sweet Pea used his jab to control range and set up his laser like left cross. Laundry time, more to come later.

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