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Thread: My Take On Canelo, Lara and the Wide Scorecard

  1. #1
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    My Take On Canelo, Lara and the Wide Scorecard

    With the 117-111 score, it may seem wide, but it's easy to forget that there were plenty of swing rounds and judges sometimes favor the guy coming forward.

    Remember the Pacquiao-Marquez 3 116-112 scorecard? Similar situation, though far more egregious.

    There is only a four-round difference between 115-113 for Dandy Landy and 117-111 for Canelo. Were there four swing rounds in the fight?

    I think most would say yes.

    In the case of swing rounds, it's almost like soccer games in the event of a draw -- the edge goes to the home team. Whether we like it or not, that's how it goes in boxing, too.

    Should Lara have let his hands go more? Sure. But then again, it's not that simple.

    "There's a reason Lara was throwing and you gotta credit Canelo for that," Paulie Malignaggi told the Boxing Channel. "The people who reason that way are idiots."

    As for Lara, the Cuban has good technique and fundamentals but as crazy as it sounds, he's way too one-dimensional. And with a one-dimensional offense, your output can be limited once forced to fight outside your comfort zone.

    As of right now, Dandy Landy just isn't ready yet.

    He needs to learn how to clinch, tie a guy up and disrupt his rhythm, fight on the inside, fight in the pocket and vary his offense a bit more.

    Ronnie Shields needs to get that boy in the film room and study the crafty inside work of Jimmy Young, George Benton, Larry Holmes, Andre Ward and Floyd Mayweather and drill it to death in the gym for like six months straight.

    He wouldn't even be changing him, he'd just add more layers to his current arsenal. Or maybe he needs Deepwater to go down to Texas, grab a tire, place his foot inside it and have him work.

    Like I've said yesterday, and I've said all along, Lara's a poor man's Rigondeaux. Which is enough to get you to a certain level but not enough to pound-for-pound you to the absolute upper echelon of elite where Floyd, Ward and Rigo reside.

    Max Kellerman deserves more respect, by the way, for always keeping a sense of perspective. And I also liked this analogy :-p

    https://twitter.com/max_kellerman/st...90234358603776

  2. #2
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    Re: My Take On Canelo, Lara and the Wide Scorecard

    I understand your take. But no cake. The judge of that wide score was a home-country snake. He ought to jump in the lake. Because he is all wet. And as Paulie M said: "He had his score down before the fight started." And on that I bet.

    Being from Mexico -- and not being able to be fair -- he should not have been a judge. True boxing people, who know that they cannot be fair always remove themselves from scoring when homies are getting down. Holla!

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    Re: My Take On Canelo, Lara and the Wide Scorecard

    Radam -- I respect your work but I'm compelled to disagree with you. For the record, Judge Levi Martinez is from New Mexico, not Mexico. I don't know his nationality, but I know that many longtime residents of New Mexico can trace their lineage to the Spanish-Basque explorers who arrived in the 17th century.

    Art "Golden Boy" Aragon, the most exciting fighter to bubble out of New Mexico, resented being identified as Mexican while he was an up-and-comer. "My heritage is Spanish," he insisted. Aragon later developed a huge Mexican following in Los Angeles.

    I agree that Martinez's score was too wide, but it wasn't an easy fight to score and I wouldn't hold it against him. It's worth noting that he was the only judge to score every round for Adrien Broner in Broner's fight with Mexican-American Carlos Molina.

    I don't feel sorry for Lara. When you're fighting on the other guy's turf -- and Canelo was the house fighter in Las Vegas -- you have to be more aggressive. Invariably in a close fight one of the judges will score the bout with his ears.

    I'm reminded of a conversation overheard at the bank of telephones in Stillman's gym. A fight manager was on the horn with an out-of-town promoter who needed a last-minute replacement to salvage his show. "If we win can we get a draw?" asked the fight manager.

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    Re: My Take On Canelo, Lara and the Wide Scorecard

    Quote Originally Posted by ArneK. View Post
    Radam -- I respect your work but I'm compelled to disagree with you. For the record, Judge Levi Martinez is from New Mexico, not Mexico. I don't know his nationality, but I know that many longtime residents of New Mexico can trace their lineage to the Spanish-Basque explorers who arrived in the 17th century.

    Art "Golden Boy" Aragon, the most exciting fighter to bubble out of New Mexico, resented being identified as Mexican while he was an up-and-comer. "My heritage is Spanish," he insisted. Aragon later developed a huge Mexican following in Los Angeles.

    I agree that Martinez's score was too wide, but it wasn't an easy fight to score and I wouldn't hold it against him. It's worth noting that he was the only judge to score every round for Adrien Broner in Broner's fight with Mexican-American Carlos Molina.

    I don't feel sorry for Lara. When you're fighting on the other guy's turf -- and Canelo was the house fighter in Las Vegas -- you have to be more aggressive. Invariably in a close fight one of the judges will score the bout with his ears.

    I'm reminded of a conversation overheard at the bank of telephones in Stillman's gym. A fight manager was on the horn with an out-of-town promoter who needed a last-minute replacement to salvage his show. "If we win can we get a draw?" asked the fight manager.
    My bad! He is born in New Mexico -- [so it goes] -- from Mexican parents. I personally know L.M. I meant that he will be bias for a Mexican-native pug because of the same ethnicity. And he was. No more than my U.S. born Pinoy relatives will be bias for a Filipino-or-Chinese-native pug.

    Most ethnic people have built-in biases for their own. And are in self denial about it. Beside, a lot of Mexican boxers -- past and present -- are also full of Asian blood. Particularly the blood of Filipinos and Arabs. And I can name them all. They don't like to admit to it because of a culture-held stigma of being a first-or second-degree mestizo.

    I can be 100-percent fair. Except for close relatives and friends. So I have enough sense to remove myself as an amateur judge and a part-time pro one.

    I have no bones to pick. I said STRAIGHT UP in this Universe when the fight was first made that Lara would never, NEVER win a decision. I call a spade a spade. And never hide in the shade. The game is full of crooks. And like my boy, Teddy Atlas, I ain't gonna give them a passing grade.

    When I found out who the judges were, I call a gift decision or lift draw for Canelo. And I told key people to watch L.M. "He's going to vote for Canelo. And it will be ridiculous." Nostradamus-like I was. Holla!

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    Re: My Take On Canelo, Lara and the Wide Scorecard

    I believe Canelo won the fight. Watch those close rounds very carefully...In my opinion, the hard clean body shots Canelo landed in those rounds carried more weight than the punches, many times flashier, that Lara landed. This is professional boxing and clean hard punches carry more weight when scoring a fight.

    That said, it was a difficult fight to score with many close rounds. I certainly understand the arguments for Lara. I disagree but understand as there were a lot of close rounds.

    A lot of people also ave criticized Levi Martinez's scorecard. Again, a lot of close rounds. I did not think the margin was that wide but I can see how Martinez scored the fight the way he did. In my opinion, the criticism being thrown his way is unjust.

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    Re: My Take On Canelo, Lara and the Wide Scorecard

    Shadow, I like your advice for Lara but I think Levi Martinez had his card filled out before the fight started.

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    Re: My Take On Canelo, Lara and the Wide Scorecard

    Quote Originally Posted by Carmine Cas View Post
    Shadow, I like your advice for Lara but I think Levi Martinez had his card filled out before the fight started.
    He did. And I'm with Teddy Atlas. "These type of judges disgrace our sport..." Holla!

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    Re: My Take On Canelo, Lara and the Wide Scorecard

    Quote Originally Posted by Radam G View Post
    He did. And I'm with Teddy Atlas. "These type of judges disgrace our sport..." Holla!
    Teddy Atlas was probably flipping out after he heard the score cards, too bad there wasn't a camera in front him lol!

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    Re: My Take On Canelo, Lara and the Wide Scorecard

    Lara's problem was that he refused to fight in the pocket, and outright refused to do anything inside. If you're content to raid for 12 rounds, then it's your own fault that the cards are close.

    Lara seemed to give Canelo too much respect- perhaps the Cuban's encounter with Angulo was fresh in his mind, and he didn't want to trade at all, but you can't get in the ring and avaid a fight for half an hour.

    The game plan of staying well away from Canelo was a risky one and it didn't carry much weight in the scoring. Lara needed the confidence in his own ability to stand and fight with Canelo for at least some of the bout. Perhaps he's aware of his own deficiencies inside, I don't know. He needs to remember that it's not just strength that wins the fight up close, it's guile and subtlety. Canelo had the former, as Lara knew, but Lara didn't seem to bring out the latter, to his own loss.

  10. #10
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    Re: My Take On Canelo, Lara and the Wide Scorecard

    A fight is viewed holistically in its totality but is scored on a round-by-round basis.

    There's a big difference and it's easy to get the two confused. And that can lead to the perception of robberies and foul play.

    You can have a super close, evenly fought fight with a 120-108 score with one guy just edging each round by a narrow margin.

    A good example of this is Andre Ward vs. Sakio Bika -- probably the most even fight Ward has had during his championship run.

    Then you can have a guy dominating a fight coming away with a draw -- just like the first Marquez-Pacquiao fight where JMM easily outboxed him. But with the knockdowns and a few swing rounds here and there, judges scored it anywhere from 10 rounds for Marquez to 7 for Pacquiao.

    A good analogy is if Pete Sampras plays Andre Agassi 12 times in one year and wins each one 7-6, 6-7, 7-6. He's up 12-0, suggesting complete dominance, though each match tells a story of an evenly contested match.

    Now say the following year, Agassi smokes Sampras 6-1, 6-0 six times but losing the other six by way of tie-break again. The overall perception may be that Agassi is superior, and he's certainly won more games and sets over the two-year period, but they're 6-6 -- a draw.

    I don't think Martinez -- whether he had it filled out before or not -- delivered a suspect scorecard. Because you can easily defend it, based on the fight we saw Saturday.

    Canelo-Lara could easily have been 10-2 either way. Wide margins don't necessarily equal holistic dominance. So I won't go as far as to call him corrupt.

    After all, everyone agrees the overall verdict was fair. This is why there are three judges.

    Martinez may have been biased or easily influenced, however. He was, after all, the most inexperienced guy on the panel.

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