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Thread: Russell Jr vs Lomachenko

  1. #31

    Re: Russell Jr vs Lomachenko

    Quote Originally Posted by the Roast View Post
    Holy crap AJ I think you just won the contest.
    Count me in thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by Skibbz View Post
    I also think he had his feather's ruffled, and has a point to prove by beating Lomachenko. I would highly doubt they underestimate Lomachenko, but I believe the Russell camp thinks they have the beating of him.

    Gary has a good right hand, if he can land uppercuts when Lomachenko stoops then he could hurt him. Loma will no doubt try to show Gary early on he can hit him anywhere he likes and it's Gary's job to return. I don't think Gary will dominate the fight, but he has to be there breathing fire on Lomachenko or Lomachenko will take this belt and bragging rights. How far do you think the fight's going to go?
    Russell does have a good shot, he's what you'd expect to find in the top level of the amateurs, but he's adaptable to pros, whereas Lomachenko hasn't completely adapted, so there really is going to be an element of risk in choosing either opponent, although I'm confident of Lomachenko getting the victory.
    Uppercuts are extremely difficult to land on Lomachenko tbh but yeah, Gary is actually good with the uppercuts.

    For Gary to take this, he better hope his stamina is beyond the roof and that Lomachenko doesn't time him him.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Commish View Post
    I don't remember the last fight that has been broken down and analyzed in the days and weeks leading up to it as this one. It truly is one of the more compelling, intriguing fights of the year.

    I believe it's all about who will find, get into, and keep his rhythm. Something tells me that man will be V-Lo. After seeing Russell's speed and testing his strength in the first round--maybe two--I expect V-Lo to have Russell fully figured out.

    I will be greatly surprised if the ending is a quick stoppage and mildly surprised if it's a late one. I fully expect a decision here, with the winner being the more effective aggreassor--V-Lo.

    -Randy G.
    Yeah I agree with this. I might have to use V-Lo too, it sounds pretty cool lool

    Quote Originally Posted by The Shadow View Post
    Lol yes, 1), 2) and 3).

    By the way Roast, I think you ran El Dude out of the Universe! He's ducking you. I've responded to him on Youatube, telling him to come back and face The Roast and take that a$$ taxing but he's running scared.
    lol cheers buddy. Does The Roast want to get in the ring with El Dude?

    Quote Originally Posted by stormcentre View Post
    With Russell he usually has to stop to throw punches.
    As obvious as that comment is, it almost always holds true for guys with Russell's speed and style whom enjoy a clear advantage in the exchanges of a fight that often, in the later rounds of the fight, morphs into a psychological advantage closing down the other guys' options and willingness to engage in a "shoot out".
    Furthermore, and still on Gary's punches; they're not always thrown with the purpose that makes the risk (of a quality opponent's counterpunching) worth it; all the time.Most opponents can't deal with Gary's advantages, speed and skills to take him into those waters though, so he rarely finds himself there due to that consideration and matchmaking. Zab Judah used to do a similar thing when he came through the ranks also . . . he would use his Southpaw speed and combinations to confuse, flurry and fluster opponents (I know he also used them to hurt and control guys too), and that would have a positive effect on the scorecards even when Zab was not necessarily being as productive or as efficient with his fast punches and combinations as he otherwise could have been - particularly for the energy/punches expended.A guy can fall in love with himself and his own work like this, just a little, sometimes standing back and watching his opponent cowering; as it all feels and looks good to razzle/dazzle the audience and scare your opponent.But, all those combinations and particularly the dedication to them in the fight, can sometimes be without any strategic purpose/thinking, and as such they can get the author of them set up and seriously clipped; if he thinks he's in there with yet another guy that is in awe if his speed as much as the author is.There are ways to deal with speed, especially when it arrives without reliable power.And I should imagine Lomachenko not only knows this and has practiced it on many occasions throughout his decorated career - but that he also see's very little in this aspect of Russell's repertoire that makes him think Gary's speed is more of a risk than opportunity; for his own timing, defence, power and experience.
    Still, I am surprised that Russell took this fight, as whilst he is better than most give him credit for; he often fights guys that are not only susceptible to his strengths - but also those that either wont or don't have the proven 12 round ability to stick to game-plans and adapt whilst under the pressure of experienced guys - guys that aren't too bothered if an opponent reveals and uses their advantages.
    And Lomachenko can do that and more. One thing though, I don't really have a strong understanding of Russell's stamina and power (against proven opponents) and how reliable they both are in the late rounds. Lomachenko's confidence and punch resistance are what you would expect for a guy of his pedigree and caliber. But if Russell can noticeably hurt Lomachenko and not just slow down that adjustment process - but also ensure there are consequences associated with it - things might change or at least be more difficult for Lomachenko and his expectations.
    Gary getting into a full blown exchange with Loma would be awesome to watch, but Loma is too clinical on the inside, especially considering what differentiated him to all other boxers in the amateurs is his ability to land more, cleaner shots than his opponent.

    The Zab Judah connection is a good spot! It's this side of the game that Loma is missing really as he can go to work, he just needs dare I say, the 'smokes and mirrors'. You did highlight what I've been thinking about Gary in that all of this work may have over-validated Gary in a way, he's fallen in love with his ability...we all know that a harmful comfort zone soon follows that belief. I seriously believe an element of this is present with Gary, considering he has been pro for many years and it has just taken a little to get the job done, and so as you stated, Loma's timing could be a factor here.

    I just really hope Lomachenko takes a few rounds to feel out his opponent, press the attack to learn how his opponents respond - something he did in the first round of his amateur fights - but now Lomachenko actually has the advantage here in that he could spread this out over more rounds, and so he could pick his shots better and really construct traps to a greater degree like he did in the amateurs. So we get to see Lomachenko as a Bernard/JMM/Mayweather (cerebral) fighter. This is one reason why I can't help but be excited at Lomachenko's scope in the pro game.

  2. #32
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    Re: Russell Jr vs Lomachenko

    Stormcenter, I loved your line, "There are ways to deal with speed, especially when it arrives without reliable power." I am going to use that line on my show and credit you. Thank you.

    It's so true. If punches arrive in a blinding flash and carry with them snap and leverage, chances are those punches will carry power, sometimes explosive power. Two rivals of yesteryear--Sugar Ray Leonard and Thomas Hearns--had that kind of mix. They'd hit you and hurt you.

    Like Stormcenter and many of you, I don't really know a lot about Russell's stamina and power. I will also add to that his heart and ability to fight through adversity...to being tired...to being hurt.

    I received a call from referee Jack Reiss. He told me he has been assigned to work the fight. Both fighters--as well as thefans--should be thrilled with this news, as Reiss is one of the finest referees in the world. I wish Reiss had been working the Orlando Salido v V-Lo bout. Alas, he wasn't.

    This should be an outstanding bout. When it's over, a new star in the sport will have arrived.

    Will that star be V-Lo or will it be Russell?

    -Randy G.

  3. #33
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    Re: Russell Jr vs Lomachenko

    @AJ Whoever gains the most confidence in the first 3 will go on to have an easier night. It's a bigger fight for Loma then people are making out. Gary has a track record behind him and Loma is the one with the point to prove. If Loma loses it'll be 0-2 in his last 2 of only 3 fights.

  4. #34

    Re: Russell Jr vs Lomachenko

    Quote Originally Posted by The Commish View Post
    Stormcenter, I loved your line, "There are ways to deal with speed, especially when it arrives without reliable power." I am going to use that line on my show and credit you. Thank you.

    It's so true. If punches arrive in a blinding flash and carry with them snap and leverage, chances are those punches will carry power, sometimes explosive power. Two rivals of yesteryear--Sugar Ray Leonard and Thomas Hearns--had that kind of mix. They'd hit you and hurt you.

    Like Stormcenter and many of you, I don't really know a lot about Russell's stamina and power. I will also add to that his heart and ability to fight through adversity...to being tired...to being hurt.

    I received a call from referee Jack Reiss. He told me he has been assigned to work the fight. Both fighters--as well as thefans--should be thrilled with this news, as Reiss is one of the finest referees in the world. I wish Reiss had been working the Orlando Salido v V-Lo bout. Alas, he wasn't.

    This should be an outstanding bout. When it's over, a new star in the sport will have arrived.

    Will that star be V-Lo or will it be Russell?

    -Randy G.

    Thank you for your praise and credit, I appreciate it.

    Speed in itself is a wonderful advantage to have.

    You can win fights on it alone (particularly in the amateurs) and it will get you quite far.

    But as Judah and Kahn have shown, it can also be a liability to rely on.

    Especially if it is used (or relied upon) as a defence or cloaking mechanism.

    The latter being/meaning to hide other limitations and/or fears – which applies particularly to both above-mentioned (and similar) fighters.

    As (the proof is) with almost all of their fights against guys that are not only determined – but also not bothered about fighting a guy with speed – especially if there are deficiencies hiding under that glossy exterior image of untouchable speed that they suspect their proprietor will not like to have uncovered to such an extent that a junkie without a fix is not a poor analogy.

    Check out how much Kahn ran from Maidana in the later rounds of their fight and once he had been touched up a bit, realized he required more than his speed, and perhaps even more importantly (and often overlooked) once Kahn became aware his speed – even when used effectively – provided no psychological advantage over the fight or his opponent.

    At that point Kahn not only realized that it was embarrassing to have the edge in speed to such an extent that his opponent couldn’t always see his punches coming and on many occasions also had no chance of punching with him – but that despite this extremely obvious and sometimes spectacular advantage and/or benefit, it didn’t correlate into a similarly proportionate amount of dominance.

    When that happens, sometimes guys (in their own mind) become a real life, real-time, example of just how much they don’t know how to use their advantages to their advantage; which can then make them seem pointless.

    Whether or not that happens due to fear of getting hit, or (in both the above-mentioned guy’s case in several of their fights) a disproportionate focus on escaping the counter punch before their own punch/combination itself has landed (a coward’s advance we used to call it); is often something the fans themselves decide and when they do, they are usually very hard to sway back the other way.

    These speedsters, usually, also can’t fight going backwards; which makes their liability all the more detrimental – sometimes to the same (or even greater) extent that the fighter’s entire reliance upon speed serves to be both a liability and (with respect to its limitations) also a (poorly) closely guarded secret; that with every application against real competition it becomes more obvious how curiously entangled to two – despite how they are diametrically opposed – considerations really are.

    Same with Martinez, Cotto will have him going backwards and he will be lost, particularly if Cotto lands power shots.

    And the above also holds true for Zab Judah too.

    As soon as he found himself in there with guys like, Cotto and others, that were not bothered by his speed; it became a liability of some sorts.

    If Russell cant adapt to ensure he is different from the above-mentioned Southpaw speedsters he may just find that Loma is his nightmare and that speed has nothing, or very little, to do with the fight.

    Well, at least much less than he may have originally thought.

  5. #35

    Re: Russell Jr vs Lomachenko

    Quote Originally Posted by The_King_AJ View Post


    The Zab Judah connection is a good spot! It's this side of the game that Loma is missing really as he can go to work, he just needs dare I say, the 'smokes and mirrors'. You did highlight what I've been thinking about Gary in that all of this work may have over-validated Gary in a way, he's fallen in love with his ability...we all know that a harmful comfort zone soon follows that belief. I seriously believe an element of this is present with Gary, considering he has been pro for many years and it has just taken a little to get the job done, and so as you stated, Loma's timing could be a factor here.

    I just really hope Lomachenko takes a few rounds to feel out his opponent, press the attack to learn how his opponents respond - something he did in the first round of his amateur fights - but now Lomachenko actually has the advantage here in that he could spread this out over more rounds, and so he could pick his shots better and really construct traps to a greater degree like he did in the amateurs. So we get to see Lomachenko as a Bernard/JMM/Mayweather (cerebral) fighter. This is one reason why I can't help but be excited at Lomachenko's scope in the pro game.
    Thanks AJ – I too am quite intrigued with not just the Lomachenko V Russell fight, but also the prospect of seeing them shoot out and put their skills, stamina, and determination on the line.

    If Russell has power (we have overlooked) though, then Lomachenko and his team will be in for a big surprise.

    But something tells me that the GBP matchmaking (as you mentioned earlier) has built that aspect of Gary’s career and/or game up to be a little more than it really is.

    With the styles these two guys have, if Russell has holes in his game – including a power deficiency – Lomachenko ,once he sniffs it out, could really just end up mauling or bashing Gary up.

    In boxing, one of the more embarrassing deficiencies - or combinations of skills and deficiencies - to have is when you get a guy that has limited power but almost unlimited speed, and he likes to use the speed, not just to win – but to also psychologically close a guy down so the fight doesn’t wander into territories that may expose other limitations; embarrassing or not.

    Sometimes guys like that will use their speed out of fear to ensure they don’t get exposed in other areas; like their chin. Reliance can then be built on speed in a way where an objective of the fight often becomes to get your opponent psychologically frazzled or gun shy as a result of him feeling he cant compete at all, when it is only in the speed stakes he cant compete.

    This technique can protect a fragile chin, nerves and other limitations, but (Pernell Whitakker aside) it will usually only get a guy so far.

    I think once Gary realizes that Lomachenko is not fazed by his speed or power, and that he shows no respect and/or concern about any of the other advantages Russell usually spooks opponents with; Russell’s bowels may just turn soft if not into water – regardless of the taste of Lomachenko’s punches.

    You don’t get to where Lomachenko was in the amateurs – where you don’t choose your opponent – at world class level without running into a few guys that have Russell’s style.

    Particularly if you represent your country and compete against USA fighters in the lighter weights; as almost every 3rd or 4th American amateur boxer at an international level you run up against usually has a style that not only incorporates speed and some of the other slick moves and/or attributes into it – but also has decent punch resistance and adaptability.

    And here’s the intriguing thing (I am sure you all know) about this fight; the same can be said for Gary Russell.

    He’s been around the traps as a top-level American amateur boxer competing at both an international and national level for a while too.

    So, one would think, he should know what he’s coming into.

  6. #36
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    Re: Russell Jr vs Lomachenko

    Great scribing as always, Storm.

    V-Lo is going to light G-Russ Junebug up. Da joke -- I mean bloke -- is going to be sparking like fireworks.

    V-Lo is going to reveal G-RJ as punch flaunting, not punch speeding. Dude is aight! But his so-called speed is slight. It is not blazing light. He is creating an optical illusion with grunting and whined-up fluttering and side-fist slapping of shots. Holla!

  7. #37
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    Re: Russell Jr vs Lomachenko

    Some great debate on this thread, it seems we're heavily favouring the Ukrainian in this bout. It's going to be interesting to see how these two young pugs get it on... Anyone think it's going to finish before the scheduled distance?

  8. #38

    Re: Russell Jr vs Lomachenko

    Quote Originally Posted by Skibbz View Post
    @AJ Whoever gains the most confidence in the first 3 will go on to have an easier night. It's a bigger fight for Loma then people are making out. Gary has a track record behind him and Loma is the one with the point to prove. If Loma loses it'll be 0-2 in his last 2 of only 3 fights.

    Skibbz - I think if Gary loses, it will be detrimental to his career and he may never return to form, but if Lomachenko loses, they will undergo a strategic rethink and listen to new promoters who will actually school him properly and help him get the most out of his abilities, and thus it'll set Lomachenko back around 4-5 fights = So the downside isn't so great. Career records don't mean anything much when you fight the best, especially in your first fights.

    I'm definitely assuming Lomachenko is going to go in with reasonable pressure, perhaps not like in the 12 round of the Salido fight, but slightly less, but really it's going to be a case of Lomachenko timing Gary very well and exploiting the fact that Gary cannot lay an onslaught like Salido did.


    Quote Originally Posted by stormcentre View Post
    Thanks AJ – I too am quite intrigued with not just the Lomachenko V Russell fight, but also the prospect of seeing them shoot out and put their skills, stamina, and determination on the line.

    If Russell has power (we have overlooked) though, then Lomachenko and his team will be in for a big surprise.

    But something tells me that the GBP matchmaking (as you mentioned earlier) has built that aspect of Gary’s career and/or game up to be a little more than it really is.

    With the styles these two guys have, if Russell has holes in his game – including a power deficiency – Lomachenko ,once he sniffs it out, could really just end up mauling or bashing Gary up.

    In boxing, one of the more embarrassing deficiencies - or combinations of skills and deficiencies - to have is when you get a guy that has limited power but almost unlimited speed, and he likes to use the speed, not just to win – but to also psychologically close a guy down so the fight doesn’t wander into territories that may expose other limitations; embarrassing or not.

    Sometimes guys like that will use their speed out of fear to ensure they don’t get exposed in other areas; like their chin. Reliance can then be built on speed in a way where an objective of the fight often becomes to get your opponent psychologically frazzled or gun shy as a result of him feeling he cant compete at all, when it is only in the speed stakes he cant compete.

    This technique can protect a fragile chin, nerves and other limitations, but (Pernell Whitakker aside) it will usually only get a guy so far.

    I think once Gary realizes that Lomachenko is not fazed by his speed or power, and that he shows no respect and/or concern about any of the other advantages Russell usually spooks opponents with; Russell’s bowels may just turn soft if not into water – regardless of the taste of Lomachenko’s punches.

    You don’t get to where Lomachenko was in the amateurs – where you don’t choose your opponent – at world class level without running into a few guys that have Russell’s style.

    Particularly if you represent your country and compete against USA fighters in the lighter weights; as almost every 3rd or 4th American amateur boxer at an international level you run up against usually has a style that not only incorporates speed and some of the other slick moves and/or attributes into it – but also has decent punch resistance and adaptability.

    And here’s the intriguing thing (I am sure you all know) about this fight; the same can be said for Gary Russell.

    He’s been around the traps as a top-level American amateur boxer competing at both an international and national level for a while too.

    So, one would think, he should know what he’s coming into.

    Good comment.

    I wouldn't call it a shoot out where skills are concerned, Vasyl will express more skill in the fight. He just possesses more of it. The stamina and determination are going to be an interesting one.
    At the moment, I have zero grounds to believe Gary has what it takes in the way of determination, to be at this level. We have seen Lomachenko's determination in his amateur career and subsequently his amateur record, his ability to come back from behind and respond to adversity throughout his career and even in his fight with Salido.

    Examples of his responses to adversity include:
    1. Winning the World Championships 2009 having broken his hand very early in the tournament, yet only conceding a total of 7 points in that tournament (the hand break kept him out of fighting for a while).
    2. Becoming a World Champion in 2011 and Olympic Champion in 2012 in a weight class he looked small at (with guys on his resumes who a year later became medalists at the light welterweight division).
    3. Coming back from behind in his fights i.e Selimov 2, Gaibnazarov, hell, why not throw Salido in there?

    I honestly think Russell does have power, but landing 'those' hard punches is usually foregone in order to utilise his style as a whole, as well as through point scoring.
    Although Lomachenko's chin looks solid from all of his fights, and considering he's only ever been down once (which was on a body shot, and proceeded to knock the guy out), I don't think it's right to count Russell's power off….although it seems more accurate to say that it's unlikely that Russell will relatively frequently land huge shots.

    - What you mention could be the case, I probably share that same opinion, but also in the light of the above paragraph, it may be that Lomachenko underrates Gary's power based on Gary's flurries, leading Lomachenko to become more ambitious, until Gary lands a big shot. That big shot will at minimum make Lomachenko think twice about going all out to maul Gary.

    I'm not completely sure what you mean. In a simpler way, I think you're trying to say that guys with speed and no power will try to exploit their speed advantages as much as possible, trying to outpoint the opponent by centring the match around more of a 'speed contest', however this can make the opponent one dimensional.

  9. #39
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    Re: Russell Jr vs Lomachenko

    Quote Originally Posted by The_King_AJ View Post
    Skibbz - I think if Gary loses, it will be detrimental to his career and he may never return to form, but if Lomachenko loses, they will undergo a strategic rethink and listen to new promoters who will actually school him properly and help him get the most out of his abilities, and thus it'll set Lomachenko back around 4-5 fights = So the downside isn't so great. Career records don't mean anything much when you fight the best, especially in your first fights.

    I'm definitely assuming Lomachenko is going to go in with reasonable pressure, perhaps not like in the 12 round of the Salido fight, but slightly less, but really it's going to be a case of Lomachenko timing Gary very well and exploiting the fact that Gary cannot lay an onslaught like Salido did.
    I disagree, I think Gary has already done much behind him and losing at the hands of Lomachenko might just be enough to drive him forward in his career, much like Lomachenko's loss to Salido. If Lomachenko loses I think there will be some serious consideration time for Team Loma... They'll be scratching their heads a bit I think wondering why their Golden boy isn't winning in the pro's as he was in the amateurs.

    I believe the pressure is all on Lomachenko and he will certainly feel it more than Gary. If Gary comes in fast and in supreme shape ready for the fight of his life then I wouldn't be shocked to see him win. If he starts slow, and lets Lomachenko open up his confidence and box of tricks then it'll be fairly smooth sailing for the Ukrainian till the finish. Less than two weeks now isn't it?

  10. #40
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    Re: Russell Jr vs Lomachenko

    Quote Originally Posted by Skibbz View Post
    I disagree, I think Gary has already done much behind him and losing at the hands of Lomachenko might just be enough to drive him forward in his career, much like Lomachenko's loss to Salido. If Lomachenko loses I think there will be some serious consideration time for Team Loma... They'll be scratching their heads a bit I think wondering why their Golden boy isn't winning in the pro's as he was in the amateurs.

    I believe the pressure is all on Lomachenko and he will certainly feel it more than Gary. If Gary comes in fast and in supreme shape ready for the fight of his life then I wouldn't be shocked to see him win. If he starts slow, and lets Lomachenko open up his confidence and box of tricks then it'll be fairly smooth sailing for the Ukrainian till the finish. Less than two weeks now isn't it?
    I think Russell may be in a bit over his head in this fight.

    Oddly, though Lomachenko has just two pro fights I think the experience he had in those two bouts is far more than anything Russell has experienced in his 24 fights as a pro.

    Russell has speed, there is no disputing that fact. Heck, he may even have the fastest hands in the sport today. But his level of competition as a pro has been subpar to say the least. He has not learned anything in these fights and will be facing adversity for the first time in his pro career when he steps in the ring with Lomachenko.

    Lomachenko has serious skill. He proved that as an amateur star winning nearly 400 bouts and many awards along the way. And he gained a ton of experience in the Salido fight. It is ring experience that he learned and went through that Russell has not at this point in his career.

    I think Lomachenko is going to create doubt in the mind off Russell early. This was cause Russell to be hesitant and to be doing more thinking in the ring than letting his hands go.

    As the fight goes on, Lomachenko will be more confident and his foot on the gas a bit more than he was in the Salido fight. He knows what it takes now to go 12 in a tough fight. On the otherhand, though Russell has gone 10 rounds it has not been a hard 10 rounds and there will be more doubt in his mind than in Lomachenko's.

    Russell may be more athletically gifted but the more athletically gifted fighter does not always win. I think Lomachenko's skills and experience will be the undoing of Russell in this fight.

    This could be one of those fights where Russell loses but his growth as a fighter will improve tremendously despite the loss. And ultimately may not be a bad thing for his career.

    And like Skibbz notes above, if Lomachenko loses it will be a significant step back and his team will be doing some serious head scratching about how they decided to move his career along.

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