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Thread: Is a great trainer mandatory for a great fighter?

  1. #11
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    Re: Is a great trainer mandatory for a great fighter?

    Quote Originally Posted by dino da vinci View Post
    @Radam. So now you're commenting on your own posts? Has it slowed down that much in here? But it's good you're practicing because if it comes to you having to hold down the fort again like in the past, you'll be in shape. (Just don't argue with yourself or I'll have to come to the Philippines to rescue you).

    ; )
    I was just rehatching the point that I made of that chemistry. Hehe! Holla!

  2. #12
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    Re: Is a great trainer mandatory for a great fighter?

    I think you're on to it, Radam. And I think it differs in relation to what phase of a boxing career/life a boxer is in.

    A young know-nothing needs someone who both knows the sport and has the ability to teach it. The latter - the pedagogic part - is often missing in our world. No matter if the trainer is an oracle - if he can't teach it, its useless for the boxer. And many can't lower their level to that of the pupil, and thus the pupil won't learn - just nod and pretend to have learned.

    A slightly older semi-good boxer often needs something else, like: a tougher touch, with the ability to let him understand he's not yet Muhammad Ali, and the capacity to fine tune the raw skills that our talent has acquired in order to take him to that next level. This transition - transition from talent to something more - is a hard part and requires trainers with real skill. This is where so many of almost-good-enough fighters could have got themselves into a path of greater success, had they just had better trainers at this point of their careers.

    Now a more experienced fighter, our boxer needs a man of true and deep knowledge - not just for holding pads, but for the crucial but difficult corrections of the subtle parts of the game - be it technical details, be it bad but hard-to-see habits, be it how he squares up or an inch difference in his foot stance.

  3. #13
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    Re: Is a great trainer mandatory for a great fighter?

    Gotta tell ya that Grimm impresses me more and more with each outing. Subtle nuances, babee!

  4. #14
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    Re: Is a great trainer mandatory for a great fighter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimm View Post
    I think you're on to it, Radam. And I think it differs in relation to what phase of a boxing career/life a boxer is in.

    A young know-nothing needs someone who both knows the sport and has the ability to teach it. The latter - the pedagogic part - is often missing in our world. No matter if the trainer is an oracle - if he can't teach it, its useless for the boxer. And many can't lower their level to that of the pupil, and thus the pupil won't learn - just nod and pretend to have learned.

    A slightly older semi-good boxer often needs something else, like: a tougher touch, with the ability to let him understand he's not yet Muhammad Ali, and the capacity to fine tune the raw skills that our talent has acquired in order to take him to that next level. This transition - transition from talent to something more - is a hard part and requires trainers with real skill. This is where so many of almost-good-enough fighters could have got themselves into a path of greater success, had they just had better trainers at this point of their careers.

    Now a more experienced fighter, our boxer needs a man of true and deep knowledge - not just for holding pads, but for the crucial but difficult corrections of the subtle parts of the game - be it technical details, be it bad but hard-to-see habits, be it how he squares up or an inch difference in his foot stance.
    Very well said Grimm.

    To add to the discussion. I think we can safely say that most elite athletes know what they're doing right, know where they can improve and they will train after hours to improve themselves.

    A trainer will understand from his fighter what he needs and will do his best to facilitate those needs. Trainers from the past also knew exercises that bring out muscles you never knew you even had. They can act as your father, teacher, older brother and best friend whenever the you need it.

    One of my favourite anecdotes from Angelo Dundee was during a heavyweight fight in Manchester. Dundee's fighter comes back to the corner at the round after being punched pillar to post, angry because he's unable to get to work and looked set to lose his belt. Dundee tries to tell him to wake up and start throwing and his fighter riposte's telling him "SCREW YOU!". Dundee took a step back, looked behind himself and pointed to the fighter in the other corner and screamed "SCREW ME..? SCREW HIM!!". Willie Pastrano came back and went on to TKO Terry Downes in the 11th, keeping a hold on his belts!

  5. #15
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    Re: Is a great trainer mandatory for a great fighter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skibbz View Post
    Very well said Grimm.

    To add to the discussion. I think we can safely say that most elite athletes know what they're doing right, know where they can improve and they will train after hours to improve themselves.

    A trainer will understand from his fighter what he needs and will do his best to facilitate those needs. Trainers from the past also knew exercises that bring out muscles you never knew you even had. They can act as your father, teacher, older brother and best friend whenever the you need it.

    One of my favourite anecdotes from Angelo Dundee was during a heavyweight fight in Manchester. Dundee's fighter comes back to the corner at the round after being punched pillar to post, angry because he's unable to get to work and looked set to lose his belt. Dundee tries to tell him to wake up and start throwing and his fighter riposte's telling him "SCREW YOU!". Dundee took a step back, looked behind himself and pointed to the fighter in the other corner and screamed "SCREW ME..? SCREW HIM!!". Willie Pastrano came back and went on to TKO Terry Downes in the 11th, keeping a hold on his belts!
    Great tidbit about GBGOAT Angie Dundee. And no doubt that even an adequate trainer must understand that he has several roles to play. And that he needs to understand the five Ws and one H of journalism to fully write a good or great path for his pug[s].

    See GBGOAT AD knew when, why and how to bring a fighter to instinctive learning from what in da game we call monkey learning. You know monkey see and monkey do. Put monkey on the pads and let him sho, sho! And you have to monkey around with monkey repeating jive a million time, and then the dude doesn't know how to quickly and slickly change up when necessary. That is the intellectual jive that is so present in the state of nowadays New Jack boksing. [Give me old skool all day 24/7/365 and a fourth and on a light year 366.]

    Humans -- especially fighting ones -- are best served by instinctive learning, not intellectual learning. Intellectual anything is no match for instinctive everything. Kids who learn by instinct are mountains above those who learn by intellect -- that memorizing and monkey-way of teaching jive.

    One has to have instinctive learning -- saavy -- to rule, know and learn el mundo.

    The discoverers of everything came by instinct, not intellect -- that is just the-way-it-is syet. Intellect comes from memorizing syet and mimicking -- not critical thinking, self-thinking and adapting, inprovising and turning it to better serve the situation at hand.

    Instinct comes by naturally, organically doing syet in ways that the status quo says is impossible or unconventional, or just is not the way that it suppose to be done. And doing it in super-blast time. Taking da play away! OH! OH! What ya' SAY!

    You play long, you play wrong. And you will end up being all alone. If you take long to think, you will likely stink. You instinctively do it quick, whatever you want to do, you can pick. And about it, be slick.

    See! What Skibbz noted about what GBGOAT AD said to the "Dancing Master of Disaster" Willie Pastrano says it all. A trainer has to say it quick. In order UP for a fighter to killer instinctly PICK. Talk to a fighter LONG! Your arse is talking to him WRONG!

    A great EXAMPLE of that is what is going on with Money May. Now if Uncle Roger was back in the corner, Maidana would not have had an iota of success. FYI, Pops Joy May is showing da double fudge off and talking too much and playing to the cameras and all who are watching and listening.

    Money May cannot remember 10 percent of what his pops is talking about in the corner. Less instructions between rounds is more instruction/the right amount in elite boxing. You say the minimum amount of things to motivate a fighter. You know when and whom to cuss out, and when and whom to talk sweet to and even con.

    From the beginning of time, savviness has always beat so-called IQ-ness [sic]. Knowing syet doesn't meaning being able to do it at the right time. Savviness can and will always throw off IQ-ness every darn day of the week. And a 1,000 times on Sunday.

    Just look how the savviness of the late, great Steve Jobs has change the way -- or maybe brought by -- the quick operation of everything in communication and media.

    IQs -- from monkey see, monkey do memorization -- is aight. I have one of the highest IQs on the globe. But Savviness is da BIG BOSS! And rules. Holla!
    Last edited by Radam G; 05-23-2014 at 06:01 PM.

  6. #16
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    Re: Is a great trainer mandatory for a great fighter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Radam G View Post
    Great tidbit about GBGOAT Angie Dundee. And no doubt that even an adequate trainer must understand that he has several roles to play. And that he needs to understand the five Ws and one H of journalism to fully write a good or great path for his pug[s].

    See GBGOAT AD knew when, why and how to bring a fighter to instinctive learning from what in da game we call monkey learning. You know monkey see and monkey do. Put monkey on the pads and let him sho, sho! And you have to monkey around with monkey repeating jive a million time, and then the dude doesn't know how to quickly and slickly change up when necessary. That is the intellectual jive that is so present in the state of nowadays New Jack boksing. [Give me old skool all day 24/7/365 and a fourth and on a light year 366.]

    Humans -- especially fighting ones -- are best served by instinctive learning, not intellectual learning. Intellectual anything is no match for instinctive everything. Kids who learn by instinct are mountains above those who learn by intellect -- that memorizing and monkey-way of teaching jive.

    One has to have instinctive learning -- saavy -- to rule, know and learn el mundo.

    The discoverers of everything came by instinct, not intellect -- that is just the-way-it-is syet. Intellect comes from memorizing syet and mimicking -- not critical thinking, self-thinking and adapting, inprovising and turning it to better serve the situation at hand.

    Instinct comes by naturally, organically doing syet in ways that the status quo says is impossible or unconventional, or just is not the way that it suppose to be done. And doing it in super-blast time. Taking da play away! OH! OH! What ya' SAY!

    You play long, you play wrong. And you will end up being all alone. If you take long to think, you will likely stink. You instinctively do it quick, whatever you want to do, you can pick. And about it, be slick.

    See! What Skibbz noted about what GBGOAT AD said to the "Dancing Master of Disaster" Willie Pastrano says it all. A trainer has to say it quick. In order UP for a fighter to killer instinctly PICK. Talk to a fighter LONG! Your arse is talking to him WRONG!

    A great EXAMPLE of that is what is going on with Money May. Now if Uncle Roger was back in the corner, Maidana would not have had an iota of success. FYI, Pops Joy May is showing da double fudge off and talking too much and playing to the cameras and all who are watching and listening.

    Money May cannot remember 10 percent of what his pops is talking about in the corner. Less instructions between rounds is more instruction/the right amount in elite boxing. You say the minimum amount of things to motivate a fighter. You know when and whom to cuss out, and when and whom to talk sweet to and even con.

    From the beginning of time, savviness has always beat so-called IQ-ness [sic]. Knowing syet doesn't meaning being able to do it at the right time. Savviness can and will always throw off IQ-ness every darn day of the week. And a 1,000 times on Sunday.

    Just look how the savviness of the late, great Steve Jobs has change the way -- or maybe brought by -- the quick operation of everything in communication and media.

    IQs -- from monkey see, monkey do memorization -- is aight. I have one of the highest IQs on the globe. But Savviness is da BIG BOSS! And rules. Holla!
    Glad you enjoyed it RG. You're bang on the money about keeping it short and to the point from a trainer. Anything more than a few brain jolters will be lost on the fighter and take him out the groove ever so slightly.

    Boxing is so much a mental sport people don't even know it!

  7. #17
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    Re: Is a great trainer mandatory for a great fighter?

    I asked this same question on my show the other day, and lots of astute fight fans, as well as fighters and ex-fighters, chimed in.

    There are a lot of good trainers out there, but not a lot of great ones. A trainer is generally not known as being "great" until his fighter wins a fight or a title in spectacular fashion. Skills can be taught. Greatness cannot. Greatness is a gift which we cannot ask for, plan for or prepare for. Either a person has it or they don't.

    Many of us here have fought. Did we enjoy it? I'm sure most of us did. Were we good? Again, I'm sure some of us were. Were any of us great fighters? No, we weren't. Greatness is being hit with what I call "The Bolt" from above. Either you're hit by it or you're not. Most of us--no matter what we do in life--never get hit with "The Bolt." We're not great athletes, we're not great trainers, we're not great writers, we're great in anything we do. We're okay. Even better than okay. But not great.

    A fighter who has been hit with "The Bolt" will most likely achieve that greatness no matter who trains them. A great fighter may be even greater by working with a great trainer, but, most likely, will still be a great fighter even if they are trained by mediocrity.

    Great fighters don't need great trainers.

    Of course, it doesn't hurt to be hit by "The Bolt" as a fighter, then to be trained by someone who was also hit by "The Bolt."

    That's truly a match made in Heaven.

    -Randy G.

  8. #18
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    Re: Is a great trainer mandatory for a great fighter?

    Nice thread. Agree with the good doctor, Dino, and Randy. No trainer can make a bad fighter great, but a good trainer can make a mediocre fighter more skillful to where he can achieve some decent paydays.

    We touched on this question several weeks back when discussing the Holmes-Cooney fight. Cooney's trainer was Victor Valle. For this bout, Holmes had the double-barreled counsel of Eddie Futch and Ray Arcel. The way that fight played out reinforced my opinion that boxing is a team sport.

    Regarding Angelo Dundee, I side with Randy and against Radam. In sports where there are collisions, some coaches are more the motivator and others more the tactician. Dundee was more the motivator. If he had been a football coach, I don't think he would have been very good at devising a clever game plan. Having said that, he was one of the nicest, most pleasant people I ever met in boxing -- a great ambassador for his sport.

    Down the road, an interesting topic for a thread would be changes in training methods. One thing that hasn't changed much is the notion that running is best done outdoors and not on a treadmill. All of the early trainers believed that every exercise was more beneficial if performed outdoors.

    In 1903, the NY Tribune published a series of tips on how to stay healthy by a person identified as President Roosevelt's first boxing coach. His first precepts were: (1) when riding on a streetcar, stand in the open air on the back platform; (2) leave a window open in your office and in your bedroom at night; (3) walk before and after lunch and before commuting home.

    Do you detect a pattern here? It's stuffy in my room. I'm going outside now.

  9. #19
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    Re: Is a great trainer mandatory for a great fighter?

    Agree on your suggestion of a thread on changes in training methods, Arne - would be interesting and, I'm sure, educative.

    Anyway, I wrote an article for my blog some two years ago on the 5 most important traits of a good trainer, and in short I ended up with these:

    1. Passion. The best trainers are obsessed with boxing, constantly thinks about it, and when not still processes it on a semiconscious level.

    2. Analytical ability. The best trainers can break it down into great details, when need be, and so make the fighter understand the 'why' and 'if', and the consequences of doing or not doing certain things.

    3. Psychological skills.. The best trainers knows that grass grows with different speed, that all cats hunt in their individual ways - the best trainers can communicate with their fighters in the way that best fit the fighter in question.

    4. Pedagogical skills. The best trainers have the ability to pass their knowledge by, in a way the fighter can understand and acquire. This is the single most important ability, without which everything else is of little or no meaning.

    5. Self reflection. The best trainers always question themselves as a mean to develop their own abilities, cause they are driven by a will to constantly improve. A trainer who no longer does this, is a tired trainer - and tired trainers are of no use.

  10. #20
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    Re: Is a great trainer mandatory for a great fighter?

    Quote Originally Posted by ArneK. View Post
    Nice thread. Agree with the good doctor, Dino, and Randy. No trainer can make a bad fighter great, but a good trainer can make a mediocre fighter more skillful to where he can achieve some decent paydays.

    We touched on this question several weeks back when discussing the Holmes-Cooney fight. Cooney's trainer was Victor Valle. For this bout, Holmes had the double-barreled counsel of Eddie Futch and Ray Arcel. The way that fight played out reinforced my opinion that boxing is a team sport.

    Regarding Angelo Dundee, I side with Randy and against Radam. In sports where there are collisions, some coaches are more the motivator and others more the tactician. Dundee was more the motivator. If he had been a football coach, I don't think he would have been very good at devising a clever game plan. Having said that, he was one of the nicest, most pleasant people I ever met in boxing -- a great ambassador for his sport.

    Down the road, an interesting topic for a thread would be changes in training methods. One thing that hasn't changed much is the notion that running is best done outdoors and not on a treadmill. All of the early trainers believed that every exercise was more beneficial if performed outdoors.

    In 1903, the NY Tribune published a series of tips on how to stay healthy by a person identified as President Roosevelt's first boxing coach. His first precepts were: (1) when riding on a streetcar, stand in the open air on the back platform; (2) leave a window open in your office and in your bedroom at night; (3) walk before and after lunch and before commuting home.

    Do you detect a pattern here? It's stuffy in my room. I'm going outside now.
    I take that you didn't know Angie. He was a master tactician and motivator the same as Vince Lombardi. And those Packers made some serious collisions with their tackles as did Angie's fighters did with their fists.

    Angie was with the majority of the fighters that scored the biggest upsets of all times In the last 70 years.

    To name a few: Carmen Basilio over Sugar Ray Robinson. Angie planned the strategy. He did the gym work for green just-19-fights Cassius Clay to beat then-thought-to-be-invincible Sonny "Night Train" Liston. He reinvented "Big" Rev. George Foreman to kayo a sure-shot, cocksure, heavily favored Michael "Double M" Moorer. And he no doubt planned how had-not-fought-in-nearly-four-years Sugar Ray Leonard would beat Marvelous Marvin Hagler. Just holla at all these fighters' books. GBGOAT Dundee was da MAN.

    And in the beginning, there was the word. The start of greatness in all humans is the word -- motivation -- talk! Knowing what words to say and how are the most important part of the game. Because if a fighter shuts you out, and he's doing the wrong stuff, it is OVER! After the word, the talk, the motivation come talent and techniques.

    Angie taught the right technique for the right occasion. And his fighters had the talent to do it. A lot of time he had to trick them into using it. Great coaching is great tricking -- and not d¡¢king -- of everything. And showing and jive holding pads. The greatest pads or bags hitters have never been the greatest fighters.

    I guess no one ever heard how he got the GOAT Ali to properly hook by fooling him into believing that the way that his threw his left hook was an uppercut. When the GBGOAT Dundee wanted GOAT Ali to take somebody's head off with a proper hook, he was just tell the GOAT Ali to uppercut off that jab, thus cameth [$¡¢] the perfect hook. Holla!
    Last edited by Radam G; 05-25-2014 at 05:32 PM.

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