NUMBERS ARE IN: Was PBC on ESPN A Hit, Or A Miss?

It was quite nice to see boxing featured on the airwaves of the WorldWide Leader in the televised sports sphere on Saturday night, and many folks were curious if that judgement would be shared by the masses.

How will the show do, numbers wise, the inside baseball crew wondered…

They got some news Tuesday morning, with the results coming in and coming off as disappointing to some, “I told ya so” crappy to others and “this is a decent starting point” to some others still…

ShowBuzzDaily.com was first out of the blocks, showing the PBC on ESPN show averaged 799,000 viewers, a number which would not have been out of place for a Showtime card. Of course, ESPN proper is available on more than three times as many TVs as the pay cabler, so that has to be factored in when assessing numbers and determining success or failure. The naysayers and those who believe that the PBC model is flawed, and market skewing, and unable to be sustained for a long run, noted that “Flea Market Flip” bettered the Keith Thurman-Luis Collazo topped event, and “Sharksanity” positively thrashed it.

A well-placed source told me a bit after that report came out, however, that the event averaged 1.2 million viewers at peak viewing time, putting it more in line with some HBO card results, thought their top events AVERAGE more than that number. Again, ESPN is in many more homes than HBO, but as ESPN’s Dan Rafael pointed out, while deeming this events penetration scale as decent, “the #PBConESPN numbers are a good start. #Boxing fans need to get used to seeing major names/fights on ESPN, which is new for us.”

Makes some sense…people do get used to seeing the products they use and like in particular spots, and it can take some getting used to when your corner convenient store closes, and you have to go elsewhere to pick up Oreos.

Main Events exec Nicole Duva, no stranger to publicly opining that she thinks the PBC model is flawed and toxic for the sport as a whole, noted on Twitter that, “ESPN paid $500k for Arreola-Stiverne last year. 940,000 viewers. PBC paid just Thurman & Collazo $2 mil. 799,000 viewers.”

My sense is that within ESPN walls, but of course they would have liked to hit a home run, duh, but getting over the million mark is something to build on. What they have to like, being that they are in the business to make money, is that they were paid for use of their platform. Thus, one would surmise that how ratings are evaluated changes in their heads. Now, if the network gets numbers beneath what they typically get running this and that on Saturday in primetime, that could devalue the brand, and even if they are getting paid to be the stage for PBC fighters, they might decide to end that arrangement after two years.

But I do think most everyone reacts with a “microwave” mentality–patience is neither treasured not encouraged when we talk ratings, when we assess this PBC model…and I do think it should be, because the Haymon plan, I think, is in effect with around a three-year window in mind. I think it’d be most fair to really judge where we are after, say, one year, though I do acknowledge that is not a message that will be embraced by other players affected by PBC switches in environment. Like, say, boxers holding out because they want bigger purses, because they look across the aisle, and see what Uncle Al is paying. The people who do business with those boxers, and are engaged in legal tussles with them, they don’t want to hear that patience is virtuous and we have to see how things play out.

Bottom line, I will say what I have said from the get go. It’s about the fighters, and the fights. With ratings, it’s especially about the fights. If moving forward, we get A Side vs A Side clashes, coinflip specials, then I expect the numbers will be more generous. Yep, brain surgery, ain’t it? Great fights typically get great ratings. And having seen so many PBC cards, I would have thought and hoped we would have tuned in to one obvious Fight of the Year candidate…and no, Quilin-Lee was not close to that, and Thurman-Guerrero wasn’t a close fight, let alone a classic.

I do think the PBC crew is moving toward that A vs A mindset, as witnessed by the Double A side Broner-Porter tiff, and talk of an Amir Khan-Keith Thurman faceoff. I feel like the PBC gang is caught in the middle of an identity crisis, between the old model of building a fighter into an attraction based mostly on a glittering record, and what I think the new model could/should be, that the fights are the attraction, and fans will come if you are offering them compelling, evenly-matched scraps.

Thoughts, friends?

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COMMENTS

-deepwater2 :

The PBC outfit should have come out of the gate with A vs A matchups. Don't expect PBC to change it up now. tsAH has been around the block for a long time now and he knows what he is doing. He wants the monopoly of the boxing world. The boom phase is under way but how long until the bust comes? Thurman did not close the show and Collazo quit to fight for tsAH another day. The PBC has done nothing to better the boxing world and has in fact done more harm. Showing unevenly matched lack luster fights do nothing to promote boxing.Its more of what turns off casual fans. People want excitement.How many general public people switched from watching Thurman moving away from Collazo to the UFC preliminaries? Not one of those MMA guys quit because of a cut. Just saying. ESPN is not happy about those numbers or the result. Step it up PBC or hit the road.


-Radam G :

It was not a hit or a miss, but a diss. And the only reason that "double" A-side Broner fought A-side Porter, was that Broner was too deep in the hole with predatory loans and tsAH needed to be doing some collecting because he has bills to pay. My crystal ball is not working right now -- hehehe -- so I cannot tell you if Amir Con, I mean Khan, is going to come off Ramadan and scrap with Keith Thurman. I doubt it, though. Holla!


-deepwater2 :

The PBC gave us all the soft fights over the years to try and build up some of their boxers into stars. It didnt work. We had Gacia having a make believe homecoming in Puerto Rico,he basically lost and Puerto Rico never heard of him. Than we had Garcia,the lineal champ, fighting unranked small salka which was embarrassing and borderline criminal. Salka might have sued Garcia and PBC like Gamache did Gatti. Garcia is now fighting broadcaster Paulie M. ??? Way to build a star. Same thing happened with Thurman. The kid has heart but being put in with cans did him no good whatsoever. He regressed instead of developing into the star he should become. Quillin is the poster boy,for wasted talent. Maybe he wasn't the most talented boxer but his career is put in the garbage can after dumping the belt. Broner proved to be the biggest bust. How any company could invest in him? Wilder won the championship against a steady diet of cans and after winning a belt he is back to facing cans and taking 9 rounds to win. Soon he will be fighting washed up Tarver and/or out of shape Arreola who should not be on tv anytime soon but will be against a heavyweight ranked near 300. Quality is better than Quantity. When something is free ,you usually get what you pay for. #step.it.up.PBC


-brownsugar :

[br] /[/br]It was quite nice to see boxing featured on the airwaves of the WorldWide Leader in the televised sports sphere on Saturday night, and many folks were curious if that judgement would be shared by the masses. How will the show do, numbers wise, the inside baseball crew wondered... They got some news Tuesday morning, with the results coming in and coming off as disappointing to some, "I told ya so" crappy to others and "this is a decent starting point" to some others still... ShowBuzzDaily.com was first out of the blocks, showing the PBC on ESPN show averaged 799,000 viewers, a number which would not have been out of place for a Showtime card. Of course, ESPN proper is available on more than three times as many TVs as the pay cabler, so that has to be factored in when assessing numbers and determining success or failure. The naysayers and those who believe that the PBC model is flawed, and market skewing, and unable to be sustained for a long run, noted that "Flea Market Flip" bettered the Keith Thurman-Luis Collazo topped event, and "Sharksanity" positively thrashed it. A well-placed source told me a bit after that report came out, however, that the event averaged 1.2 million viewers at peak viewing time, putting it more in line with some HBO card results, thought their top events AVERAGE more than that number. Again, ESPN is in many more homes than HBO, but as ESPN's Dan Rafael pointed out, while deeming this events penetration scale as decent, "the #PBConESPN numbers are a good start. #Boxing fans need to get used to seeing major names/fights on ESPN, which is new for us." Makes some sense...people do get used to seeing the products they use and like in particular spots, and it can take some getting used to when your corner convenient store closes, and you have to go elsewhere to pick up Oreos. Main Events exec Nicole Duva, no stranger to publicly opining that she thinks the PBC model is flawed and toxic for the sport as a whole, noted on Twitter that, "ESPN paid $500k for Arreola-Stiverne last year. 940,000 viewers. PBC paid just Thurman & Collazo $2 mil. 799,000 viewers." My sense is that within ESPN walls, but of course they would have liked to hit a home run, duh, but getting over the million mark is something to build on. What they have to like, being that they are in the business to make money, is that they were paid for use of their platform. Thus, one would surmise that how ratings are evaluated changes in their heads. Now, if the network gets numbers beneath what they typically get running this and that on Saturday in primetime, that could devalue the brand, and even if they are getting paid to be the stage for PBC fighters, they might decide to end that arrangement after two years. But I do think most everyone reacts with a "microwave" mentality--patience is neither treasured not encouraged when we talk ratings, when we assess this PBC model...and I do think it should be, because the Haymon plan, I think, is in effect with around a three-year window in mind. I think it'd be most fair to really judge where we are after, say, one year, though I do acknowledge that is not a message that will be embraced by other players affected by PBC switches in environment. Like, say, boxers holding out because they want bigger purses, because they look across the aisle, and see what Uncle Al is paying. The people who do business with those boxers, and are engaged in legal tussles with them, they don't want to hear that patience is virtuous and we have to see how things play out. Bottom line, I will say what I have said from the get go. It's about the fighters, and the fights. With ratings, it's especially about the fights. If moving forward, we get A Side vs A Side clashes, coinflip specials, then I expect the numbers will be more generous. Yep, brain surgery, ain't it? Great fights typically get great ratings. And having seen so many PBC cards, I would have thought and hoped we would have tuned in to one obvious Fight of the Year candidate...and no, Quilin-Lee was not close to that, and Thurman-Guerrero wasn't a close fight, let alone a classic. I do think the PBC crew is moving toward that A vs A mindset, as witnessed by the Double A side Broner-Porter tiff, and talk of an Amir Khan-Keith Thurman faceoff. I feel like the PBC gang is caught in the middle of an identity crisis, between the old model of building a fighter into an attraction based mostly on a glittering record, and what I think the new model could/should be, that the fights are the attraction, and fans will come if you are offering them compelling, evenly-matched scraps. Thoughts, friends?
Good article, I guess it comes down to expectations. ESPN BOXING has been the primary outlet for free boxing shows,... I remember watching them in the 80's on Tuesday nights if I can remember correctly. Al Bernstein was the young enthusiastic fresh face of boxing at the time. Most of the fighters were new and unknown to most of us with the rare exception of a few amateur standouts and some regional talent. I remember seeing one guy I had been drinking with three days prior to the fights, I had a tiny little business at the time and he was in my establishment telling me of his ring exploits. On Tuesday night they matched him with some former AAU champ with a record of 8-1, .... My acquaintance who was bragging about his boxing ability had a big afro and was wearing cut-offs,... You heard me,....he didn't have boxing trunks, he showed up on TV and got the bejesus beat out of him halfway though round 1 wearing plaid home-made short pants. ... Bernstein said the guy was hired on short notice and offered an apology for the poor performance of the late substitute. Things like this happened occasionally. I fell asleep some days watching because many times the matches didn't produce the action that was anticipated. But i tuned in every week because I love the sport. ESPN did eventually improve, but you never knew what you were going to get... On any given day Out of 5 or six fights,.....out of that number there might be one or two that were entertaining. If that happened then I considered my time well spent. I feel the same about PBC, except PBC is way more entertaining than ESPN ever was and it provides access to boxers that I instantly recognize. Not every fight is a barn burner but it feels good being able to turn on network TV or basic cable and watch boxing again. The shows are almost on par with Showtime and HBO and with so many compelling fighters migrating over to the Haymon camp daily , the variety of matchups are limitless. I'm not saying this for any bodies benefit, I dont care who does or doesn't watch PBC......and no,.....Al Haymon has not offered me a job yet (and I've already put in 3 applications lol...) But being the boxing lover that I am, I will be watching every show with high anticipation until Al either goes broke, loses his lawsuit, or becomes fantastically successful. Yes I will be watching until the wheels fall off. And that goes for any other programming like it. Can't get enough of those fisty-cuffs.


-Chris L :

It's because the fights suck. Does anyone knows what views Broner-Porter pulled?


-King Beef :

Good article, I guess it comes down to expectations. ESPN BOXING has been the primary outlet for free boxing shows,... I remember watching them in the 80's on Tuesday nights if I can remember correctly. Al Bernstein was the young enthusiastic fresh face of boxing at the time. Most of the fighters were new and unknown to most of us with the rare exception of a few amateur standouts and some regional talent. I remember seeing one guy I had been drinking with three days prior to the fights, I had a tiny little business at the time and he was in my establishment telling me of his ring exploits. On Tuesday night they matched him with some former AAU champ with a record of 8-1, .... My acquaintance who was bragging about his boxing ability had a big afro and was wearing cut-offs,... You heard me,....he didn't have boxing trunks, he showed up on TV and got the bejesus beat out of him halfway though round 1 wearing plaid home-made short pants. ... Bernstein said the guy was hired on short notice and offered an apology for the poor performance of the late substitute. Things like this happened occasionally. I fell asleep some days watching because many times the matches didn't produce the action that was anticipated. But i tuned in every week because I love the sport. ESPN did eventually improve, but you never knew what you were going to get... On any given day Out of 5 or six fights,.....out of that number there might be one or two that were entertaining. If that happened then I considered my time well spent. I feel the same about PBC, except PBC is way more entertaining than ESPN ever was and it provides access to boxers that I instantly recognize. Not every fight is a barn burner but it feels good being able to turn on network TV or basic cable and watch boxing again. The shows are almost on par with Showtime and HBO and with so many compelling fighters migrating over to the Haymon camp daily , the variety of matchups are limitless. I'm not saying this for any bodies benefit, I dont care who does or doesn't watch PBC......and no,.....Al Haymon has not offered me a job yet (and I've already put in 3 applications lol...) But being the boxing lover that I am, I will be watching every show with high anticipation until Al either goes broke, loses his lawsuit, or becomes fantastically successful. Yes I will be watching until the wheels fall off. And that goes for any other programming like it. Can't get enough of those fisty-cuffs.
"But being the boxing lover that I am, I will be watching every show with high anticipation until Al either goes broke, loses his lawsuit, or becomes fantastically successful. Yes I will be watching until the wheels fall off. And that goes for any other programming like it. Can't get enough of those fisty-cuffs.[/QUOTE]" B-Sug, I am the same way; although with the rash of missed weights and last minute replacements, it was getting alittle hard to continue the blind support...but I have seen just as many crappy fights on HBO and Showtime (and I pay xtra for them) so PBC will still get my support for now. It is the common theme here to hate everything Haymon, but if PBC does anything I think it has/will put the pressure on the "other guys" to put out better and more fights...which is all us "boxing" fans want!


-Bernie Campbell :

Get the hook on Marisol! Whats the point! Short dress! Does she know about Boxing? Put an Apron on her! I want politically correct equal time, I want an old dwarf. Like that lady thats the brains of that cop show! Boxing wonders why all the problems in consistency in viewership! Is this the plaything of some Mogul's fancy? Give Marisol the hook! Get rid of the ring card girls-bring matrons in to pick up the slack! Give David DiAmonte a haircut! Give Nazi Richardson some beano and a derby to change his image!


-brownsugar :

I appreciate you're comments King Beef, I thought the entire TSS despised Al Haymon.... Lol.. Your comments are fair and realistic. I think HBO may have a slight edge on the matchmaking but its only a slight edge, ...whenever human beings are involved things can always go awry and like you stated everyone has been guilty. The only boxing platform that I have turned away from consistently were some of the Golden Boys shows which have been used as a platform for rising talent but on many occasions were absolutely dreadful to watch, ...but instead of sending Oscar the hate mail, ... I simply turn the channel and forget, I'll have to ask Shadow how Haymon is growing his stable so fast, now that Frampton, Degale, Chavez and Beterbiev are on board they are going to need more channel and more dates. I'm can't wait to see Frampton in action, he truly believes he can knock Rigondeau out and signed with Haymon specifically to get a shot at him. But like yourself, I'll watch boxing anytime, anywhere, and with any promoter.


-brownsugar :

Get the hook on Marisol! Whats the point! Short dress! Does she know about Boxing? Put an Apron on her! I want politically correct equal time, I want an old dwarf. Like that lady thats the brains of that cop show! Boxing wonders why all the problems in consistency in viewership! Is this the plaything of some Mogul's fancy? Give Marisol the hook! Get rid of the ring card girls-bring matrons in to pick up the slack! Give David DiAmonte a haircut! Give Nazi Richardson some beano and a derby to change his image!
Wow,...Bernie you never disappoint.


-deepwater2 :

I will also watch boxing anytime no matter who the promoter is. I will also call out a total mismatch when it applies. With pBC it applies way more than the other promo outfits. tsAH would get justified props if he was putting on decent scraps but he is not. GBP gave us fight of the year: Siberian Rock vs The Machine. Besides that they gave us the violent Canelo vs Kirkland. GBP is doing just fine considering they were robbed by a swiss trojan horse and an advisor. HBO is by far the superior provider and unless pBC can step up their matchmaking that is the way it will be. Take a look at the Frampton fight this weekend. Frampton is fighting a stiff who is ranked at #54 in the weight class. Not a top 10 or even top 20 guy. A guy at #54 is near Salka territory. This fight is a total mismatch and instead of being buried on a decent fight card it is being highlighted as the main event attraction. The stiff went the distance in his last 2 fights. both 8 round fights. against guys with rooten records.How did he get this title shot? As serious boxing fans we should hope for the best matchmaking we can get. Not every fight has to be fight of the year but that said, even prospects matched against journeyman can be entertaining, but don't serve us a crap sandwich and expect us to believe it is a porterhouse steak. The Frampton fight is bad joke on the world of boxing. Lazy Arreola is fighting a guy ranked 275 or something so bad it should not be shown on TV. It is a disgrace these mismatches are being put out there as main attractions.


-deepwater2 :

I will also watch boxing anytime no matter who the promoter is. I will also call out a total mismatch when it applies. With pBC it applies way more than the other promo outfits. tsAH would get justified props if he was putting on decent scraps but he is not. GBP gave us fight of the year: Siberian Rock vs The Machine. Besides that they gave us the violent Canelo vs Kirkland. GBP is doing just fine considering they were robbed by a swiss trojan horse and an advisor. HBO is by far the superior provider and unless pBC can step up their matchmaking that is the way it will be. Take a look at the Frampton fight this weekend. Frampton is fighting a stiff who is ranked at #54 in the weight class. Not a top 10 or even top 20 guy. A guy at #54 is near Salka territory. This fight is a total mismatch and instead of being buried on a decent fight card it is being highlighted as the main event attraction. The stiff went the distance in his last 2 fights. both 8 round fights. against guys with rooten records.How did he get this title shot? As serious boxing fans we should hope for the best matchmaking we can get. Not every fight has to be fight of the year but that said, even prospects matched against journeyman can be entertaining, but don't serve us a crap sandwich and expect us to believe it is a porterhouse steak. The Frampton fight is bad joke on the world of boxing. Lazy Arreola is fighting a guy ranked 275 or something so bad it should not be shown on TV. It is a disgrace these mismatches are being put out there as main attractions.


-brownsugar :

Good post, only a couple of inaccuracies, Schaefer was one of most phenomenal promoter execs ever, he pulled GB back from the brink of no return and took it to heights its never been before.... He also knew how to get the most out of Al Haymon's financial muscle. Boxing needs more guys like him. (but watch him close)


-stormcentre :

I appreciate you're comments King Beef, I thought the entire TSS despised Al Haymon.... Lol.. Your comments are fair and realistic. I think HBO may have a slight edge on the matchmaking but its only a slight edge, ...whenever human beings are involved things can always go awry and like you stated everyone has been guilty. The only boxing platform that I have turned away from consistently were some of the Golden Boys shows which have been used as a platform for rising talent but on many occasions were absolutely dreadful to watch, ...but instead of sending Oscar the hate mail, ... I simply turn the channel and forget, I'll have to ask Shadow how Haymon is growing his stable so fast, now that Frampton, Degale, Chavez and Beterbiev are on board they are going to need more channel and more dates. I'm can't wait to see Frampton in action,
he truly believes he can knock Rigondeau out and signed with Haymon specifically to get a shot at him. But like yourself, I'll watch boxing anytime, anywhere, and with any promoter.
If this . . . ""he truly believes he can knock Rigondeau out"" . . . is really true (in Frampton's mind), then - even aside from how he performed last weekend with (the much lesser) Gonzalez - he is supremely deluded. Frampton's chances are rarer than a sober Irishman; whether it be St Patricks day or not. Rigondeax would smoke, outclass, and befuddle, him. Unlike Rigondeax; Frampton hasn't yet learned (how) to think 2 or 3 rounds - of a top level A Vs A fight - ahead. ----------------------------------------------- The good thing about the PBC shows that are crappy and/or predictable - in my opinion - is the fact that they're free; so - unlike a smelly PPV cable-cast - none of your money is wasted on the duds. Talking about quality control or the quality of the delivered product . . . . . I am not sure ESPN or even Top Rank have necessarily delivered a better quality and/or less predictable product over the times. ESPN fight nights used to - sometimes - border on being laughable; as did many Australian "shows". I am reasonably sure though that ESPN and Top Rank - when delivering their product (and managing diffused and tangible risks) over the recent/past times - have not had to contend with the risk and pressure profile, and also the scrutiny, that Haymon/PBC has recently had though. Furthermore, I am reasonably confident that most times that the Top Rank, ESPN and possibly also the HBO/Showtime risk and pressure profile may have escalated up to similar levels that PBC are currently experiencing, the delivered product can usually be seen to match and/or exceed that which Haymon and PBC are currently being (justifiably or not) criticised for. Anyway, there's some food for thought from
Storm for the un/justified lovers and haters amongst us. :) :) :)


-brownsugar :

If this . . . ""he truly believes he can knock Rigondeau out"" . . . is really true (in Frampton's mind), then - even aside from how he performed last weekend with (the much lesser) Gonzalez - he is supremely deluded. Frampton's chances are rarer than a sober Irishman; whether it be St Patricks day or not. Rigondeax would smoke, outclass, and befuddle, him. Unlike Rigondeax; Frampton hasn't yet learned (how) to think 2 or 3 rounds - of a top level A Vs A fight - ahead. ----------------------------------------------- The good thing about the PBC shows that are crappy and/or predictable - in my opinion - is the fact that they're free; so - unlike a smelly PPV cable-cast - none of your money is wasted on the duds. Talking about quality control or the quality of the delivered product . . . . . I am not sure ESPN or even Top Rank have necessarily delivered a better quality and/or less predictable product over the times. ESPN fight nights used to - sometimes - border on being laughable; as did many Australian "shows". I am reasonably sure though that ESPN and Top Rank - when delivering their product (and managing diffused and tangible risks) over the recent/past times - have not had to contend with the risk and pressure profile, and also the scrutiny, that Haymon/PBC has recently had though. Furthermore, I am reasonably confident that most times that the Top Rank, ESPN and possibly also the HBO/Showtime risk and pressure profile may have escalated up to similar levels that PBC are currently experiencing, the delivered product can usually be seen to match and/or exceed that which Haymon and PBC are currently being (justifiably or not) criticised for. Anyway, there's some food for thought from
Storm for the un/justified lovers and haters amongst us. :) :) :)
Agreed the scrutiny level is through the roof. Maybe because Haymon has been somewhat of a " wunderkind" of the business of promoting for so long,....its something that's seldom seen these days. During his tenor as a concert promoter, .....every thing he touched turned to gold, .... Floyd can attest to that special AH touch.........if Richard Schaefer eventually rejoins him when his restrictions expire the pair will be unstoppable, not that I care who gets the brass ring, .... I'm more interested in whose fighting next week.


-stormcentre :

Yeh, personally it don't matter to me either. But there are a lot of factors to consider. I take on board, and in many cases I also agree with D2's slightly pessimistic and somewhat realistic view of what Haymon is doing, but at least - unlike PPV - we don't pay for it. I'm not saying it's right, but if you look at what Haymon's investors will be looking to him for, the pressure he is under is immense. Now I'm not saying that to be sympathetic to his and/or his cause, but what I wrote above still stands, is often overlooked, and (just to make it nice and fair) disregards the fact that for the most part whilst PBC has been operating they have been fielding some very large - potentially back breaking - writs. I am pretty sure that there would not be too many other outfits working in boxing under (all) those circumstances, that wouldn't adopt similar practices; as shown from past/recent history related to some of the organisations I mentioned above, when they were not under the same pressure/writs. The trial between Arum and Haymon will be very interesting. I wish it was recorded and televised. :)


-deepwater2 :

Yeh, personally it don't matter to me either. But there are a lot of factors to consider. I take on board, and in many cases I also agree with D2's slightly pessimistic and somewhat realistic view of what Haymon is doing, but at least - unlike PPV - we don't pay for it. I'm not saying it's right, but if you look at what Haymon's investors will be looking to him for, the pressure he is under is immense. Now I'm not saying that to be sympathetic to his and/or his cause, but what I wrote above still stands, is often overlooked, and (just to make it nice and fair) disregards the fact that for the most part whilst PBC has been operating they have been fielding some very large - potentially back breaking - writs. I am pretty sure that there would not be too many other outfits working in boxing under (all) those circumstances, that wouldn't adopt similar practices; as shown from past/recent history related to some of the organisations I mentioned above, when they were not under the same pressure/writs. The trial between Arum and Haymon will be very interesting. I wish it was recorded and televised. :)
If tsAH put on better matchups I would be very happy. It is on him. I like free boxing but I like competitive matchups, that mean something,better. Frampton looked somewhat horrible in his fight last weekend. Rigo would make Frampton fall down without being hit by a punch. I think the tV ratings were bad for that fight.not a good sign. I am looking forward to Fury vs WK. That will be a real heavyweight matchup. The farce of Arreola vs the other guy was a horrible thing to be put on TV.THe other guy won though and Arreola was saved with a draw.If anyone cared about that fight there would be an uproar. After the card of Jacobs Mora/Paulie vs Garcia it seems like Quillin will be fighting another stiff. Quillin was at the movie premiere,Southpaw last night and when asked about the movie,Quillin replied it reminds him of his career and securing his financial future. That is what is wrong with this boxing model. Quillin hasn't had a tough matchup,dumped the belt ,couldn't make weight and couldn't win against Lee. Why isn't tsAH putting Quillin up against GGG? Why isn't Quillin talking about fighting GGG at the movie event instead of talking about his financial future. His legacy is non existent. tsAH makes that possible. Hyamon did the same thing with Berto,matching him against stiffs for big money, even though he only won a fight or two out of his last 5 he gets a shot at Mayweather? That is embarrassing. PBC better step up its matchmaking or it will be a flop. Unless it is a money laundering scheme ,so the profit/loss ratio doesn't matter.


-stormcentre :

Can't argue with that D2. Although most of the reasons (whether they're morally right or wrong) behind your questions are in my above post. I can't see Harmon moving from this approach until he is in safe waters or ordered to by investors and/or the courts.


-brownsugar :

As far as GGG is concerned why isn't any promoter putting there fighter against GGG??? Nobody,..i repeat NOBODY has stepped up to fight GGG except Lara who recently got tired of being rejected by GGG to fight so he issued a challenge to fight Andy Lee for his title. K2 won't give Lara or Ward the time of day and both guys are more well known that anyone GGG has ever shared the ring with. Not to mention GGG ( who is still one of my faves ) called out Ward for several.years. If its blame we're looking for there is Plenty to be shared by the entire boxing community. Lemieux, Cotto, Jacob, Quillin and Canelo all have a separate itinerary that doesn't include GGG until he's old enough for social security. Just the no-hoper will risk it. The Frampton fight was a very entertaining back and forth fight, it was intense throughout... nobody's fault but Frampton if Frampton can't make winning look easy. PBC is in third place and that's where you would expect them to be, right behind HBO and showtime while putting the cream on showtime...... but they've made fights that would have easily have been at home on cable. And yes a few Snoozers as well. I applaud Al for giving Areola another opportunity to get his groove back. 90% of the TSS swore on a stack of bibles that Chris would flatten Wilder if given the chance, ....this was his opportunity to earn a shot. Even after the gift draw, Areola said he didn't deserve the fight. Which was a very sad moment for Areola. Chris has most likely squandered his last chance and doesnt seem capable to give any meaningful heavyweight any significant problems.... It happens fighters get old, kiss Chris goodbye (unless he's force to walk the last green mile against DW) but there are rumors of a show down with Provetkin. In the competitive world of boxing promoters PBC is forcing the entire community to step up and that's fine by me. If he wasn't,... TR wouldn't be spending a chunk of change trying to get rid of them. And its still only summertime. Just my personal perspective.


-stormcentre :

Good post BS - can't argue with that either. :)


-King Beef :

If this . . . ""he truly believes he can knock Rigondeau out"" . . . is really true (in Frampton's mind), then - even aside from how he performed last weekend with (the much lesser) Gonzalez - he is supremely deluded. Frampton's chances are rarer than a sober Irishman; whether it be St Patricks day or not. Rigondeax would smoke, outclass, and befuddle, him. Unlike Rigondeax; Frampton hasn't yet learned (how) to think 2 or 3 rounds - of a top level A Vs A fight - ahead. ----------------------------------------------- The good thing about the PBC shows that are crappy and/or predictable - in my opinion - is the fact that they're free; so - unlike a smelly PPV cable-cast - none of your money is wasted on the duds. Talking about quality control or the quality of the delivered product . . . . . I am not sure ESPN or even Top Rank have necessarily delivered a better quality and/or less predictable product over the times. ESPN fight nights used to - sometimes - border on being laughable; as did many Australian "shows". I am reasonably sure though that ESPN and Top Rank - when delivering their product (and managing diffused and tangible risks) over the recent/past times - have not had to contend with the risk and pressure profile, and also the scrutiny, that Haymon/PBC has recently had though. Furthermore, I am reasonably confident that most times that the Top Rank, ESPN and possibly also the HBO/Showtime risk and pressure profile may have escalated up to similar levels that PBC are currently experiencing, the delivered product can usually be seen to match and/or exceed that which Haymon and PBC are currently being (justifiably or not) criticised for. Anyway, there's some food for thought from
Storm for the un/justified lovers and haters amongst us. :) :) :)
"The good thing about the PBC shows that are crappy and/or predictable - in my opinion - is the fact that they're free; so - unlike a smelly PPV cable-cast - none of your money is wasted on the duds" Gotta agree with you on that Storm. PBC has its problems, but there have been some decent scraps as well. I think we all know whats going to happen this weekend with the Kovy fight, and haven't heard much grumblings about that.. especially when HBO wants their $$$$$.


-deepwater2 :

As far as GGG is concerned why isn't any promoter putting there fighter against GGG??? Nobody,..i repeat NOBODY has stepped up to fight GGG except Lara who recently got tired of being rejected by GGG to fight so he issued a challenge to fight Andy Lee for his title. K2 won't give Lara or Ward the time of day and both guys are more well known that anyone GGG has ever shared the ring with. Not to mention GGG ( who is still one of my faves ) called out Ward for several.years. If its blame we're looking for there is Plenty to be shared by the entire boxing community. Lemieux, Cotto, Jacob, Quillin and Canelo all have a separate itinerary that doesn't include GGG until he's old enough for social security. Just the no-hoper will risk it. The Frampton fight was a very entertaining back and forth fight, it was intense throughout... nobody's fault but Frampton if Frampton can't make winning look easy. PBC is in third place and that's where you would expect them to be, right behind HBO and showtime while putting the cream on showtime...... but they've made fights that would have easily have been at home on cable. And yes a few Snoozers as well. I applaud Al for giving Areola another opportunity to get his groove back. 90% of the TSS swore on a stack of bibles that Chris would flatten Wilder if given the chance, ....this was his opportunity to earn a shot. Even after the gift draw, Areola said he didn't deserve the fight. Which was a very sad moment for Areola. Chris has most likely squandered his last chance and doesnt seem capable to give any meaningful heavyweight any significant problems.... It happens fighters get old, kiss Chris goodbye (unless he's force to walk the last green mile against DW) but there are rumors of a show down with Provetkin. In the competitive world of boxing promoters PBC is forcing the entire community to step up and that's fine by me. If he wasn't,... TR wouldn't be spending a chunk of change trying to get rid of them. And its still only summertime. Just my personal perspective.
It seems that GBP and K2 are setting up the Lemieux vs GGG fight as I type this.


-deepwater2 :

GBP pushing for the fight. Say what you want about Oscar,he fought the best and he is pushing the fighters in his outfit to fight the best. Lemieux is in his prime and GGG is in his prime. Greatness comes from these types of risks. Why isn't tsAH trying to push his fighters to greatness? How do we get to watch Thurman vs Collazo and the rest of those terrible matchups? Hyping rotten matchups as premiere championship boxing is a cruel joke on boxing fans.


-stormcentre :

Yep, for the most part (in his prime) Oscar did test himself. He was way in too Deep with Strum and Hopkins. Can't imagine how - money aside - it must have felt for Oscar going into his (strength, experience, and stylistically-wise doomed) fight with Hopkins, after struggling so observably with Strum and then getting the gift win. Onto the matter of K2 and 3G; personally, I think both are playing the controversies and other fighter's availabilities that we openly discuss in other threads of this forum to their benefit. Some are jumping on the bandwagon too for various reasons; this is just me, but I found the title to another article/thread (was it?) called "Triple G's hunt for greatness and a signature fight continues" quite humorous. With every - at least - second fight 3G has had "made" for him by K2, Sanchez, and Leofller, there has been other better available opponents there. Still, calling out Floyd was a clever move as, if it did work not only does it distract from fights with Ward and others whom Golovkin c/sh/ould be looking at - but there's also a big payday that's worth a possible loss; which is not out of the question either. And if it - as expected - didn't work, then K2, 3G, Leoffler, and Sanchez get to ride the FloydHate train, buy a distraction from fights with Ward and others whom Golovkin c/sh/ould be looking at, and pull on fans that have legitimate or other concerns about how Floyd does his legacy making business. Onto the matter of (possibly) why Haymon isn't trying to push his fighters to greatness; Haymon most likely measures his success by the ratings, advertising sales, investor/fighter happiness, interest rates, and other commercial factors. Whilst all the litigation hangs over his head like
Storm clouds the most important metrics to him will probably be these - that and ensuring all fighters are happy regardless of a win or loss. The other reasons for this are many and varied, but needless to say they feed into the legal reasons his defence will require just as much as they are designed to, internally, manage/minimise risk as much as possible. PBC - right or wrong - doesn't need negatively sensational events that push risk through the roof and/or impact their (fighters and/or their) revenue generating ability right now; for all the obvious reasons. PBC, also - from what I can tell - do not consider the particular and fussy boxing purists as their main demographic viewing market, either. And, when you pay fighters as much as PBC in/directly does, they tend to not be concerned about losing and legacy as much as otherwise might be the case. I'm not saying you or your good inferences are wrong D2, just saying that this is how I see it. You're right in that it changes the overall paradigm and philosophy we're used to seeing in boxings' ivory towers, and it may also not make for history/legacy making viewing either. But, just as those in the audio industry whom ushered in the (sound quality lossy) MP3 format were laughed at by the die hard recording/sound engineers and record labels - whom had all invested years and years and very heavily financially and effort-wise in not just sound quality and resolution - but also (the much high sound quality) CD and digital tape formats; it turned out - as the Ipod and many other portable (hard drive) listening devices today show us - that the public was well and truly prepared to accept a "not too noticeable" loss of quality for an improvement in convenience, which itself has a value and therefore metric associated with it. Haymon is, effectively, doing the same thing, and my bet is that (legalities aside) the combination of happy fighters and advertisers, and also the viewers/numbers he is doing traces out a fairly similar pattern as the example I gave above. Doesn't make what you're saying wrong though. For what it's worth (and with the caveat of what they weigh in the ring on the night aside) and, perhaps, because I am not completely a slave to being uncontroversial, I actually think that if Garcia doesn't catch Paulie with something big like he did Kahn, Paulie could probably box and move around Danny all night. I'm also not sure whether Danny will feel entirely comfortable with knocking Paulie out, if he has the chance; given Paulie is pretty much PBC's external (network located) advertising voice right now. :) :) :)


-brownsugar :

It seems that GBP and K2 are setting up the Lemieux vs GGG fight as I type this.
I read that too,.... Oscar had previously said that Lemieux was being groomed for the winner of Cotto vs Canelo,....however if you're right this is definitely one occasion that I truly hope I'm wrong...bring it on!


-brownsugar :

Yep, for the most part (in his prime) Oscar did test himself. He was way in too Deep with Strum and Hopkins. Can't imagine how - money aside - it must have felt for Oscar going into his (strength, experience, and stylistically-wise doomed) fight with Hopkins, after struggling so observably with Strum and then getting the gift win. Onto the matter of K2 and 3G; personally, I think both are playing the controversies and other fighter's availabilities that we openly discuss in other threads of this forum to their benefit. Some are jumping on the bandwagon too for various reasons; this is just me, but I found the title to another article/thread (was it?) called "Triple G's hunt for greatness and a signature fight continues" quite humorous. With every - at least - second fight 3G has had "made" for him by K2, Sanchez, and Leofller, there has been other better available opponents there. Still, calling out Floyd was a clever move as, if it did work not only does it distract from fights with Ward and others whom Golovkin c/sh/ould be looking at - but there's also a big payday that's worth a possible loss; which is not out of the question either. And if it - as expected - didn't work, then K2, 3G, Leoffler, and Sanchez get to ride the FloydHate train, buy a distraction from fights with Ward and others whom Golovkin c/sh/ould be looking at, and pull on fans that have legitimate or other concerns about how Floyd does his legacy making business. Onto the matter of (possibly) why Haymon isn't trying to push his fighters to greatness; Haymon most likely measures his success by the ratings, advertising sales, investor/fighter happiness, interest rates, and other commercial factors. Whilst all the litigation hangs over his head like
Storm clouds the most important metrics to him will probably be these - that and ensuring all fighters are happy regardless of a win or loss. The other reasons for this are many and varied, but needless to say they feed into the legal reasons his defence will require just as much as they are designed to, internally, manage/minimise risk as much as possible. PBC - right or wrong - doesn't need negatively sensational events that push risk through the roof and/or impact their (fighters and/or their) revenue generating ability right now; for all the obvious reasons. PBC, also - from what I can tell - do not consider the particular and fussy boxing purists as their main demographic viewing market, either. And, when you pay fighters as much as PBC in/directly does, they tend to not be concerned about losing and legacy as much as otherwise might be the case. I'm not saying you or your good inferences are wrong D2, just saying that this is how I see it. You're right in that it changes the overall paradigm and philosophy we're used to seeing in boxings' ivory towers, and it may also not make for history/legacy making viewing either. But, just as those in the audio industry whom ushered in the (sound quality lossy) MP3 format were laughed at by the die hard recording/sound engineers and record labels - whom had all invested years and years and very heavily financially and effort-wise in not just sound quality and resolution - but also (the much high sound quality) CD and digital tape formats; it turned out - as the Ipod and many other portable (hard drive) listening devices today show us - that the public was well and truly prepared to accept a "not too noticeable" loss of quality for an improvement in convenience, which itself has a value and therefore metric associated with it. Haymon is, effectively, doing the same thing, and my bet is that (legalities aside) the combination of happy fighters and advertisers, and also the viewers/numbers he is doing traces out a fairly similar pattern as the example I gave above. Doesn't make what you're saying wrong though. For what it's worth (and with the caveat of what they weigh in the ring on the night aside) and, perhaps, because I am not completely a slave to being uncontroversial, I actually think that if Garcia doesn't catch Paulie with something big like he did Kahn, Paulie could probably box and move around Danny all night. I'm also not sure whether Danny will feel entirely comfortable with knocking Paulie out, if he has the chance; given Paulie is pretty much PBC's external (network located) advertising voice right now. :) :) :)
I don't see the unholy blasphemy of a fixed fight that Deep mentioned in his comments, ... and that's not meant to be a left handed jab at Deep, he's just speaking his mind. In my opinion there has been a good mix of top talent that in some cases didn't gel into the battle we anticipated on the screen such as Russell vs Gonzales for instance, ...Russell has no chin but fought the guy who iced Abner Mares, in the pocket.....but didn't receive the credit he should have. Especially after getting owned by Lomanchenko. Russell took Gonzales apart in about five rounds and wasn't fazed once. Then there's Charlo vs Martirosyan, .. two highly ranked and skilled contenders waiting for a title shot. No war emerged, ...instead the fight was a very close tactical match, maybe not so pleasing to the eye but they were two of the best. As far as the rankings are concerned the fight was significant Garcia vs Peterson another great matchup.and a fun fight to watch. Degale vs Dirrell, Lee vs Quillin and I'm not even close to the halfway mark yet. Two contenders at the top of the food chain. I really Don't know what Quillin is waiting for to pick his next fight but Lee will get a very hungry Saunders in his next defence. Quillin will have to speak for himself but also realize a fighters prime doesn't last forever. managing so many fighters, there has to be a proper balancing act, guys like Areola will be fed to the sharks, he's been given too many opportunities to change the trajectory of his career. Chris knows what's coming...... newcomers like Beterbiev will feast on guys like Campillo until ready for the next plateau. Some of the guys at the top will fight eliminators like Broner vs Porter. But there won't be Hearns Hagler every week. Fighting is a cyclical sport, Garcia went through Mattysse, Khan, Judah, and Peterson, I have no problem watching Garcia vs Malignacci, at least I know who he is, who is Kovalev fighting? Never heard of the guy? Doesn't mean Kovalev's team is somehow an inferior outfit trying to cheat the public. There are probably several factors involved why he's getting this guy and you don't have to be a genius to figure out why. Or why Ward fought a lame named smith. Through it all, I'm not one inch closer to watching MMA again....thank God. I think you raise some of the many nuances of the thoughts behind the motives, behind the finished product, while remaining neutral Storm, .... its tight but its right.


-stormcentre :

Thanks man. There's a lot of factors. Into the (consideration) mix is also the fact that PBC are arguably putting on more fights more frequently than the others too. So, any successful and not so successful fights have to be considered in that context too. You're right in that PBC have delivered some good shows. And D2 is right too, as PBC have also not really showed us - that is those whom probably know a little more about boxing than the average free to air viewer that will most likely make up the numbers Haymon's plans and investors rely on - the consistency and unpredictability that we yearn for with the top fights. That said, if you accept my above comments on PBC show-frequency, and then scale the argument to suit Top Rank's operational approach at a time that was Pacquaio's prime, almost all of TR's shows (whether they involved Pacquaio, Roach, catch-weights and fighting guys coming off of losses; or not) not only had a reasonably predictable outcome - but you always knew one, or a few, things; 1) A current, or to be signed (via contractual options if he won), Arum fighter would most likely win. 2) An Arum fighter would - if possible - always be the challenger to fight the Arum champion; regardless of whether another available, more deserving, and better fighter was present with a heartbeat. 3) Commercial interest - not fighter's legacy or fans interests - always guided Top Rank's interests and programming. I see (read) that 3G - despite him and Sanchez previously and openly, on several occasions, claiming that they would fight anyone from light middleweight to super middleweight - are seemingly saying they will only fight Ward at a weight below 166; which Ward has (publicly been known to have) not made for years. And this is on the back of team 3G offering Froch and Chavez fights at 168, where Ward seems to be happy to fight. I wonder if the masses will come out and publicly flog 3G for this (well known) method of ducking, as has happened with Floyd's seemingly disregard for 3G's (catch and/or ~ light middleweight) fight offers? After all, if you; A) Fight a steady line of tier 2 and 3 guys to build up your KO ratio. B) Claim no-one else is available for you, as a means of supporting such a (tried and tested) approach to greatness. C) Claim Ward is not interested in a fight with you, to explain why you're not fighting him. D) Claim Ward is not a drawcard to explain why you're not fighting him. E) Openly, say you will fight anyone from light middleweight to super middleweight. And then - just when it appears that points "B", "C", and "D" no longer exist - move the goalposts and state that you - now, all of a sudden - want to change point "E" to a value you know Ward can't achieve . . . . . . To me that's not too far from stating you're the best and/or will fight the best, and then not doing it. Man, I will be (pleasantly) surprised if team 3G and K2 accept a fight with Ward that allows him to, (1) come in at super middleweight, (2) time to properly prepare, and (3) another (warm up and ring-rust shedding) fight. Ward, in full/prime swing, is a real risk for 3G and the style he is now set in. :) :) :)