Broner Doesn’t Overly Dazzle, But Heats Up Late, Beats Taylor Via UD12

Adrien Broner didn’t look like the heir to Floyd Mayweather, or really even Mayweather Lite, but he did do enough to get the better of Emmanuel Taylor in the main event on Showtime, from the US Bank Arena, in Cinci, on Saturday night. Taylor had his moments, often landing a left hook clean, and also catching Broner with a right late which signaled his desire to stop the hometowner. But AB showed some flair for entertaining late, as he traded in the last couple rounds, and in fact dropped the loser late in the 12th. A left hookercut had the crowd ecstatic, and put an exclamation point on what was too often another B- effort.

The scores were 115-112, 116-111, 116-111.

After, he let dad brush his hair, and then gave Taylor props for coming to Cinci. Was he tougher than expected, Gray asked. “No disrespect to you, Jim, but he’s African American, I knew he was going to be tough,” said AB, drawing chuckles. He showed love to two longtime corners, and said he came from the bottom, and knows what it’s like to be low. Is Matthysse next? Yes, he wants that. “He can get it,” he said. He’d do it now, with the cut, right now.

The 25-year-old Broner (28-1, lost Marcos Maidana last December) was 140 (154 tonight) on Friday. Taylor (18-2, age 23; lost to Chris Algieri) from Maryland, was 138 1/2 (152).Broner was 11-0 in Cinci.

In the first, Taylor came out charging. Broner threw that lead sweep hook, and clanged a right high on the head early. A right to the ear ended the round for Broner.

In the second, Taylor pressured Broner. He had Broner on the ropes but it didn’t seem threatening. Taylor was catching Broner clean more, I admit, than I expected him to be able to. In the third, Broner slipped and dipped, circled, as Taylor advanced. The clipping left hook, the check hook, worked for AB.

In the fourth, the Broner single jab got on track. A counter right smarted on Taylor. A left to the body also looked like Taylor didn’t care for it. “The jab opened up everything,” trainer Mike Stafford said to the Cinci native after.

In the fifth, Broner showed the lead shoulder, rolling it to provide some cover. The lack of jabs helped Taylor, for sure, in this round. Taylor ripped to the body, with a left, and he was investing all in with it.

In the sixth, Taylor came out jabbing, coming forward, trying to back AB into the ropes. AB was inactive, and save for a ripper left hook to the body, he sent word he didn’t want the round. In the seventh, Taylor looked to be a bit nastier. Then AB, who by the way pushed off too much as he always does, put together some combos. Was he busy enough to take the round?

In the eighth, the lead hook once again didn’t work for AB. But he showed more volume and took the round. “You’re letting him off the hook,” Stafford told AB.

In the ninth, Taylor tried to rip combos. A hellacious left to the body worked for AB with 50 seconds left. In the tenth, Taylor tried to land an overhand right. But Broner had ample energy left, scoffing at those who thought he was clubbing too much in training. A right hand, after a four fight combo, popped AB. The end of the round was the best action of the fight.

In the 11th, Broner had the distance he liked. His jab, some fast, some not, did that for him. Taylor ate another, and another left hook to the body. Taylor landed a couple left hooks, clean, in this round. We saw a cut on Broner, on the right eye. This was his first career cut, apparently.

In the 12th, a right popped Broner’s head back. He hustled after AB, who then ate another clean right cross, but one without much power. They traded and excited the crowd in the second half of the round. A left upper dropped Taylor, and he was up with three seconds to go. Then, we went to the cards…

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COMMENTS

-The Shadow :

As the Brits say, Taylor boxed out of his skin. That boy got skills. Like Paulie pointed out, this was one of the best fights of the year. Action-packed with a high, high level of skill. On a different note, I'm starting to think Chris Algieri is a monster. Come November, we may see the demise of Da Manny.


-brownsugar :

Good fight....my double pep pizza was not wasted and was delivered right before the first bell rang. I think he needs a few more fights of this calibur before challenging Mattysse.


-Radam G :

As the Brits say, Taylor boxed out of his skin. That boy got skills. Like Paulie pointed out, this was one of the best fights of the year. Action-packed with a high, high level of skill. On a different note, I'm starting to think Chris Algieri is a monster. Come November, we may see the demise of Da Manny.
Hehehe! OMG! You got jokes. Holla!


-The Commish :

Good fight....my double pep pizza was not wasted and was delivered right before the first bell rang. I think he needs a few more fights of this calibur before challenging Mattysse.
This was an excellent fight to watch. Taylor took the fight right to Broner, who used his incredible speed to get himself out of trouble and out of range on many occasions. It was Taylor's lack of firepower which allowed the fight togo the distance, as he caught Broner with many flush shots throughout the course of the fight. Had that been somebody with power (Lucas Matthysse, Danny Garcia), Broner would have been in big trouble. Nor is Broner the best pure boxer in the division. Somebody with speed and agility (Chris Algieri) would handle him easily (IMHO). I even believe Errol Spence could give Broner a run for his money. -Randy G.


-mortcola :

I fully support my homey, C-Al; I have been a heavy-duty Pac-fan for years. I don?t want to see either lose; all I root for with C-Al is that he put on a damn good account of himself. But, like I?ve said elsewhere, the dude has the steepest learning curve of anyone I?ve seen, and I?ve watched - up close - the development of a lot of fighters. C-Al handled Taylor with much greater ease than did Broner last night. Taylor could barely get through C-Al?s defense, and got countered with much greater ease and effect than Broner could muster. C-al made Taylor look like a decent journeyman. Fact is, C-Al belongs in that top echelon, no matter how ?unfair? it is that a newcomer vaults over more established fighters to get the golden ticket. My bet - and I never bet against Pac - is that the respect for C-Al in these and other forums is gonna be way higher and less divided after the Pac fight. Every so often we see a fighter who is just different. And it takes some time for stiff minds to adjust. Nothing more annoying than data that makers you give up a comfortable belief - but then we find fundamentalists in every walk of life, right?


-brownsugar :

This was an excellent fight to watch. Taylor took the fight right to Broner, who used his incredible speed to get himself out of trouble and out of range on many occasions. It was Taylor's lack of firepower which allowed the fight togo the distance, as he caught Broner with many flush shots throughout the course of the fight. Had that been somebody with power (Lucas Matthysse, Danny Garcia), Broner would have been in big trouble. Nor is Broner the best pure boxer in the division. Somebody with speed and agility (Chris Algieri) would handle him easily (IMHO). I even believe Errol Spence could give Broner a run for his money. -Randy G.
Astute observations Commish. Being entertaining isnt synonymous with being ready for Mattysse. I liked the fact he was about business this time and he showed a good sporting attitude at the end of the fight. But honestly I didn't see much improvement in his technique....which is disappointing.


-brownsugar :

I fully support my homey, C-Al; I have been a heavy-duty Pac-fan for years. I don’t want to see either lose; all I root for with C-Al is that he put on a damn good account of himself. But, like I’ve said elsewhere, the dude has the steepest learning curve of anyone I’ve seen, and I’ve watched - up close - the development of a lot of fighters. C-Al handled Taylor with much greater ease than did Broner last night. Taylor could barely get through C-Al’s defense, and got countered with much greater ease and effect than Broner could muster. C-al made Taylor look like a decent journeyman. Fact is, C-Al belongs in that top echelon, no matter how “unfair” it is that a newcomer vaults over more established fighters to get the golden ticket. My bet - and I never bet against Pac - is that the respect for C-Al in these and other forums is gonna be way higher and less divided after the Pac fight. Every so often we see a fighter who is just different. And it takes some time for stiff minds to adjust. Nothing more annoying than data that makers you give up a comfortable belief - but then we find fundamentalists in every walk of life, right?
True...Taylor wasn't even IN the fight against Algieri.


-amayseng :

Astute observations Commish. Being entertaining isnt synonymous with being ready for Mattysse. I liked the fact he was about business this time and he showed a good sporting attitude at the end of the fight. But honestly I didn't see much improvement in his technique....which is disappointing.
Broner did do one thing good all night and that was throwing that left hook to the body even into round 12. The bad thing, Broner is a B fighter I have been saying it all week, hell since Chino beat him up and out boxed him. Broner has great flashy speed and throws some exciting combinations, but a great puncher like Lucas will beat him to a pulp. Broner does not belong with the elite or the greats, he is good. The heir to Floyd is a tiring joke. It needs to stop


-brownsugar :

Broner did do one thing good all night and that was throwing that left hook to the body even into round 12. The bad thing, Broner is a B fighter I have been saying it all week, hell since Chino beat him up and out boxed him. Broner has great flashy speed and throws some exciting combinations, but a great puncher like Lucas will beat him to a pulp. Broner does not belong with the elite or the greats, he is good. The heir to Floyd is a tiring joke. It needs to stop
Yep he needs to move his feet .... He removed most of Taylor's offence by getting on his bike. But he was only mobile for about three rounds.


-oubobcat :

I agree with the comments that this performance by Taylor sure makes Algieri look that much better. My main observation from this fight was that Broner's power is not carrying to 140/147. He hit Taylor flush at times to the head and body and barely fazed him. Yes he got the knockdown in the last round but these bigger guys are really not being impacted by Broner's power. As he steps up, his power won't be respected like it was at 130/135 and that will be a problem. I had the fight within a point in Broner's favor going into the last round. I had Taylor winning that round up until the knockdown. It would have made the fight a draw on my card. This was a very close fight and Broner was very fortunate to win. This is the kind of fight where the winner's stock goes down and loser's stock goes up. I will say this too, if Broner fights Matthysse I beleive Matthysse KO's him within 4. That fight won't happen. Broner will be carefully moved to a belt and then a big fight in Ohio late next year with Shaun Porter. Mark my words...


-The Shadow :

I fully support my homey, C-Al; I have been a heavy-duty Pac-fan for years. I don’t want to see either lose; all I root for with C-Al is that he put on a damn good account of himself. But, like I’ve said elsewhere, the dude has the steepest learning curve of anyone I’ve seen, and I’ve watched - up close - the development of a lot of fighters. C-Al handled Taylor with much greater ease than did Broner last night. Taylor could barely get through C-Al’s defense, and got countered with much greater ease and effect than Broner could muster. C-al made Taylor look like a decent journeyman. Fact is, C-Al belongs in that top echelon, no matter how “unfair” it is that a newcomer vaults over more established fighters to get the golden ticket. My bet - and I never bet against Pac - is that the respect for C-Al in these and other forums is gonna be way higher and less divided after the Pac fight. Every so often we see a fighter who is just different. And it takes some time for stiff minds to adjust. Nothing more annoying than data that makers you give up a comfortable belief - but then we find fundamentalists in every walk of life, right?
PREACH! PREACH! You said it right there! What a sound byte! You're right, there IS nothing more annoying to stiff minds than data that makes you give up a comfortable belief, hence why we have so much irrational criticism hurled in directions where it shouldn't. As for Algieri, I agree with you completely. He completely blew out Taylor. Taylor is obviously a skilled fighter. And so is Broner. Manny is not particularly skilled. He's a physical freak of nature. If you slow him down, he can be handled. I think they may have picked the wrong dude. I hope for Bob's sake they used their leverage to negotiate 21 options on Algieri. If Broner ever starts letting his hands go with more frequency, he will be an animal. I don't get why he didn't last night. It must be mental. The reason I say that is because Broner's stamina is unreal; he doesn't get tired. So he can throw punches. Secondly, Taylor wasn't countering him and was obviously bothered when Broner would unload those sick combos. Thirdly, Broner has the most insane combinations I've seen since Roy Jones. Creative, lightning fast and powerful. Juan Manuel Marquez is still the best combination puncher in boxing but Broner isn't far behind when he so chooses. Another thing I like about Broner is that he looks to close the show. He threw that left hook to the body in the closing seconds with everything -- and I mean EVERYTHING -- he had in him and hurt Taylor. Then he used that Midwest old school trick on Taylor by occupying his defense with decoy punches before launching that hybrid left hook/uppercut that floored him. If it wasn't for that jabroni referee running out the clock -- seriously, what was that about? -- Broner may have had a spectacular finish. I didn't like his assholish ways after the fight but I get that he's a showman and the lights are on. So fine. But if he can continue fighting like he did in the 12th then I see more excitement in his future. It's those brutal caricature knockdowns that made him famous. Hitting a guy and have him fly. Taylor will get more paydays from this. Like Algieri says, he has the tools. Whether he chooses to apply them is a different story. And how awesome is it that Rod Salka got another Showtime payday less than a month after everyone shat on him?!?


-Radam G :

Broner did do one thing good all night and that was throwing that left hook to the body even into round 12. The bad thing, Broner is a B fighter I have been saying it all week, hell since Chino beat him up and out boxed him. Broner has great flashy speed and throws some exciting combinations, but a great puncher like Lucas will beat him to a pulp. Broner does not belong with the elite or the greats, he is good. The heir to Floyd is a tiring joke. It needs to stop
I've said from the jump that Broner was just AIGHT! And ev'ybodee and dey momma, two of dey ?o?k-eyed aunties and dey fat, midget, combing-your-hair pops, called me a hater. But I told them that they would be coming my way sooner before later. How the truth and da real-real always rise. With it, no one can make me compromise. I see that Broner even halted mimicking Money May's famed "Shoulder Roll." What happened? Holla!


-The Shadow :

I've said from the jump that Broner was just AIGHT! And ev'ybodee and dey momma, two of dey ?o?k-eyed aunties and dey fat, midget, combing-your-hair pops, called me a hater. But I told them that they would be coming my way sooner before later. How the truth and da real-real always rise. With it, no one can make me compromise. I see that Broner even halted mimicking Money May's famed "Shoulder Roll." What happened? Holla!
Like Shane Mosley says, people put too much into the shoulder roll defensive technique -- also known in some circles as The Mongoose -- which has been around forever. The Cubans have a variation of it as well, which you see those little slicksters flash all the time. I remember Richar Abril giving Brandon Rios the Cold Shoulder all night. It is just one tiny component of what Mayweather does. People don't realize the subtle things he does that aren't visible to the untrained eye like his pivots, transitions, different guards, distance, control game. For that reason, you have guys who think too much of the shoulder roll alone, totally ignoring the fact that Mayweather has the most versatile defense, including the best high guard in the game and incredible upper body movement. He has dominated championship fights without relying on the shoulder roll. And unlike Mayweather, Broner has imitated the style along the way whereas Floyd was taught starting at nine months old from those who know the style inside out. It's a kinda sick when you think about it but that's the truth. So it's no wonder that he's perfected that style, which requires mostly impeccable timing but also cat-like reflexes and speed. Fortunately, Broner doesn't just rely on that technique either. He has a decent defense. He just comes forward more which opens him up to counters strikes. Notice when Mayweather, in his younger days, would take the firefight approach we saw last night, he would get tagged quite a bit, too. Sharmba Mitchell tagged him hard, Demarcus Corley caught him flush, Carlos Hernandez nailed him a few times. There are several others. That said, Broner is not as polished, mainly because he's an imitator not an innovator. He will find his identity soon enough, though.


-amayseng :

I've said from the jump that Broner was just AIGHT! And ev'ybodee and dey momma, two of dey ?o?k-eyed aunties and dey fat, midget, combing-your-hair pops, called me a hater. But I told them that they would be coming my way sooner before later. How the truth and da real-real always rise. With it, no one can make me compromise. I see that Broner even halted mimicking Money May's famed "Shoulder Roll." What happened? Holla!
You are correct you called it from the start. I was hopeful to have a young American carry the sport, instead the kid is a humiliating embarrassment to not only the sport but human character..


-SouthPawFlo :

Good Scrap!!! I would love to see if Broner - Matthysse can be made.....


-Froggy :

Good Scrap!!! I would love to see if Broner - Matthysse can be made.....
So would Matthysse !


-Radam G :

Like Shane Mosley says, people put too much into the shoulder roll defensive technique -- also known in some circles as The Mongoose -- which has been around forever. The Cubans have a variation of it as well, which you see those little slicksters flash all the time. I remember Richar Abril giving Brandon Rios the Cold Shoulder all night. It is just one tiny component of what Mayweather does. People don't realize the subtle things he does that aren't visible to the untrained eye like his pivots, transitions, different guards, distance, control game. For that reason, you have guys who think too much of the shoulder roll alone, totally ignoring the fact that Mayweather has the most versatile defense, including the best high guard in the game and incredible upper body movement. He has dominated championship fights without relying on the shoulder roll. And unlike Mayweather, Broner has imitated the style along the way whereas Floyd was taught starting at nine months old from those who know the style inside out. It's a kinda sick when you think about it but that's the truth. So it's no wonder that he's perfected that style, which requires mostly impeccable timing but also cat-like reflexes and speed. Fortunately, Broner doesn't just rely on that technique either. He has a decent defense. He just comes forward more which opens him up to counters strikes. Notice when Mayweather, in his younger days, would take the firefight approach we saw last night, he would get tagged quite a bit, too. Sharmba Mitchell tagged him hard, Demarcus Corley caught him flush, Carlos Hernandez nailed him a few times. There are several others. That said, Broner is not as polished, mainly because he's an imitator not an innovator. He will find his identity soon enough, though.
The "Shoulder Roll" is know as the "Philly" crab and shell, not the mongoose. And the Cubans have a form out that "Mongoose" style because in Nations' sports exchange programs, the late, great archmaster -- Archie "The Old Mongoose" Moore -- of the Philly crab and shell taught the Cubans. The so-called "Cuban School of whup-@$$ boxing" is nothing but AmerKano boksing taught to the Cubans by late, great amateur boxing coaches Sarge Johnson, Junior Robles and the Old Moongoose "Ancient" Archie. And a coach who is still living who was in that mix is Joe Cough. JC has been the national coach of six nations. The United States snobbed him of being its Olympic coach in the 1970$ and 80$ because his wife is black. True story -- no syet. Google him. Holla!


-DaveB :

Broner still has his mouth wide open. Somebody is going to break his jaw one day. Is his pop getting shorter and fatter?


-Radam G :

Broner still has his mouth wide open. Somebody is going to break his jaw one day. Is his pop getting shorter and fatter?
Hehehe! That's cold. With aging, his pops has probably loss a few inches and gain a lot of weight. Holla!


-Chris L :

Was a really good fight, probably my favourite of the year so far. Both guys showing good skill and was highly competitive in parts. Either Broner didn't look great, or Taylor had a really good night - I'm looking forward to seeing Broner in his next couple of fights to see how he handles himself at 140 as the opposition improves.


-The Shadow :

The "Shoulder Roll" is know as the "Philly" crab and shell, not the mongoose. And the Cubans have a form out that "Mongoose" style because in Nations' sports exchange programs, the late, great archmaster -- Archie "The Old Mongoose" Moore -- of the Philly crab and shell taught the Cubans. The so-called "Cuban School of whup-@$$ boxing" is nothing but AmerKano boksing taught to the Cubans by late, great amateur boxing coaches Sarge Johnson, Junior Robles and the Old Moongoose "Ancient" Archie. And a coach who is still living who was in that mix is Joe Cough. JC has been the national coach of six nations. The United States snobbed him of being its Olympic coach in the 1970$ and 80$ because his wife is black. True story -- no syet. Google him. Holla!
That's an awesome story. I didn't know that. I'll definitely look up on that guy. Thanks. And I'm not surprised that Moore brought some of that stuff back to Cuba because Rigondeaux -- who fights behind the shoulder most of the time -- says it's an old Cuban technique. As for the roll also known as the "Mongoose," yes, it is. Whether its etymology comes from Moore or the animal, these old school Italians teach and call it that. I know because I've been in gyms where these Italian guys taught it. (Just go to Pompano Beach and some gyms in the Northeast.) And I've had Big Floyd show and explain the Michigan version to me myself that was taught to him by some old mad scientist boxing teachers with grey beards up in the Detroit area. Italians actually bring a lot of the slick stuff in boxing, not just black and Cuban fighters. This one Italian guy I trained with when I was in Broward County taught his entire gym how to transition behind the shoulder and not just staying behind the lead shoulder but behind the back one as well. It's hard to explain but he would start off with a tight high guard. Then you can either roll the right hand with your left hand taped to your face and come back with your own straight right, or you can drape it across the stomach, tuck your chin behind the shoulder -- a la Floyd and James Toney -- roll and come back with a 2. Then I see these other Italian cats teach some slick maneuvers centered around a low left hand and nifty footwork without a roll but a shield instead; sort of what Andre Ward and his life coach Virgil Hunter call the "Prevent Defense." The Philly shell/crab is a variation of the same thing and the crab, ironically, is actually more in line of what the original Mongoose did and taught and what we later saw George Foreman bust out in his comeback. At 4:441, Bernard Hopkins demonstrates it in close:
Then you have Floyd explaining his defense here (scroll to 4:26):
->https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqOJp9Wmayo And here's Andre Ward demonstrating the difference between Mayweather's roll and his own "shield." Hopkins, who has all the tricks, actually uses both of these. "Floyd uses the shoulder roll; he's perfected that," he says. "I was always taught to go here," he adds while showing the pre-emptive technique Hopkins calls the shield. Paulie Malignaggi uses that maneuver also. Go to 2:21:
->https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSUyE6p2EpM "If I want to rest in a round," Ward says. "I got to what we call the Prevent. You just called it the Philly Crab." I've also seen a video of James Toney explaining his defense but it wasn't really intelligible.


-Skibbz :

Am I missing the plot on this fight or something? I wasn't impressed at all by the 3 time world champion. This fighter goes on to tell anybody within earshot in person or online that he's in line for the pugilistic pound for pound crown. Yet against a fighter who really is a journeyman can't put up an effective fight! I have said it before and I will say it again, at 140 there are at least 10 guys who will beat him black and blue. Should he dare to venture north again the number will be 20-30. The winner should be made to face a real challenger, not the last few opponents he's faced who are as good as salka in their ability. I'd love for El maestro to get in the ring with him, that would be a suitable step up in performer and in my opinion the best he'd face up till now.


-Radam G :

That's an awesome story. I didn't know that. I'll definitely look up on that guy. Thanks. And I'm not surprised that Moore brought some of that stuff back to Cuba because Rigondeaux -- who fights behind the shoulder most of the time -- says it's an old Cuban technique. As for the roll also known as the "Mongoose," yes, it is. Whether its etymology comes from Moore or the animal, these old school Italians teach and call it that. I know because I've been in gyms where these Italian guys taught it. (Just go to Pompano Beach and some gyms in the Northeast.) And I've had Big Floyd show and explain the Michigan version to me myself that was taught to him by some old mad scientist boxing teachers with grey beards up in the Detroit area. Italians actually bring a lot of the slick stuff in boxing, not just black and Cuban fighters. This one Italian guy I trained with when I was in Broward County taught his entire gym how to transition behind the shoulder and not just staying behind the lead shoulder but behind the back one as well. It's hard to explain but he would start off with a tight high guard. Then you can either roll the right hand with your left hand taped to your face and come back with your own straight right, or you can drape it across the stomach, tuck your chin behind the shoulder -- a la Floyd and James Toney -- roll and come back with a 2. Then I see these other Italian cats teach some slick maneuvers centered around a low left hand and nifty footwork without a roll but a shield instead; sort of what Andre Ward and his life coach Virgil Hunter call the "Prevent Defense." The Philly shell/crab is a variation of the same thing and the crab, ironically, is actually more in line of what the original Mongoose did and taught and what we later saw George Foreman bust out in his comeback. At 4:441, Bernard Hopkins demonstrates it in close:
Then you have Floyd explaining his defense here (scroll to 4:26):
->https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqOJp9Wmayo And here's Andre Ward demonstrating the difference between Mayweather's roll and his own "shield." Hopkins, who has all the tricks, actually uses both of these. "Floyd uses the shoulder roll; he's perfected that," he says. "I was always taught to go here," he adds while showing the pre-emptive technique Hopkins calls the shield. Paulie Malignaggi uses that maneuver also. Go to 2:21:
->https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSUyE6p2EpM "If I want to rest in a round," Ward says. "I got to what we call the Prevent. You just called it the Philly Crab." I've also seen a video of James Toney explaining his defense but it wasn't really intelligible.
"The prevent defense" is formally known as the "cross arm style." And yes! All versions of the "shoulder roll" originally came from short Italian fighters. And there are various versions. Even the "high guard" style that you often refer to, is a part of the Italian genre of fighting that is formerly called the "Peek-a-Boo." And if you get those hands too high, pugilistic genius, trainer and talking head Teddy Atlas label it the "Ear-Muffs Defense." "Old man (Billy) Miller" was the first teacher of the Philly crab/shell to Pops Joy May and "Lights out" Toney. You know I wouldn't be surprised if the Commish has some old books that tells the origin of every styles in da games. My extended family has boxing information -- teaching and history books and films -- dating back to the "Golden Twentie$." Holla!


-SouthPawFlo :

Good Fight.... Nice to see AB win in a Dogfight against a game Challenger who was really there to win... Broner's hand speed & combination punches are a "Problem" but his lack of footwork and low punch output seems to be a "Problem" too... He's still young and he's selling out Arenas, so I expect him to continue to get better as a boxer and to continue to be a big name in the Sport...


-The Shadow :

"The prevent defense" is formally known as the "cross arm style." And yes! All versions of the "shoulder roll" originally came from short Italian fighters. And there are various versions. Even the "high guard" style that you often refer to, is a part of the Italian genre of fighting that is formerly called the "Peek-a-Boo." And if you get those hands too high, pugilistic genius, trainer and talking head Teddy Atlas label it the "Ear-Muffs Defense." "Old man (Billy) Miller" was the first teacher of the Philly crab/shell to Pops Joy May and "Lights out" Toney. You know I wouldn't be surprised if the Commish has some old books that tells the origin of every styles in da games. My extended family has boxing information -- teaching and history books and films -- dating back to the "Golden Twentie$." Holla!
Indeed! So many think it's something Mayweather did but it's not. Toney rolls and counters better than Floyd does. Though not as defensively minded, Roger Mayweather used it sometimes to set up his thunderous right hand. Floyd Sr. did it but didn't do it as well as his son. Anyway, it's really just an old school technique. If we look back, there are many, many boxers who used it. Georgie Benton, Charley Burley, Ezzard Charles, Tony Tubbs even the technically unsound Muhammad Ali has used the roll from time to time! Here's a guy in "friggun" 1905 knocking someone out with a right hand off the roll:
->https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ML5WLvrc0P8 (scroll to 8:36). Of course, Jersey Joe Walcott, a guy we featured on Commish' show Friday, who used the rhythm of a jazz man in the ring, used it all the time. In this video, you can see Walcott fire and land crisp counter rights off the roll en route to a decision win over the towering Hein Ten Hoff, which -- on a different note -- shows that an old school skilled heavyweight would've been able to beat most of the bigger, modern-day ones:
->https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTmNZZXLMng Then later you had Argentinian Nicolino Locche using the roll as well as the elusive upper body movement we've seen in recent years from James Toney, Buster Mathis, Floyd Mayweather, Hopkins, Ward and others:
Nowadays you see kids taking this one thing that Floyd has mastered since before his age reached double digits and making it the focal point of their style and getting KTFO in the process. Fortunately for Broner, he has a good trainer that has taught him other styles as well in spite of his (understandable) adulation for Mayweather and (disturbing) proclivity to imitate him.


-The Shadow :

Good Fight.... Nice to see AB win in a Dogfight against a game Challenger who was really there to win... Broner's hand speed & combination punches are a "Problem" but his lack of footwork and low punch output seems to be a "Problem" too... He's still young and he's selling out Arenas, so I expect him to continue to get better as a boxer and to continue to be a big name in the Sport...
Hell yeah! Love him or hate him, dude is a star. No question about it.


-deepwater2 :

Just watched the card again. The Machine was impressive once again. He should have been allowed to put the guy out but the ref made a mistake. It's always best to get up at the number eight so these things don't happen. I went over to an engagement party/ BBQ / whiskey tasting all day into the night with old friends yesterday and tried to watch the fight during it. My friends from the high school wrestling were there and roasted me for not being on the Chris A bandwagon. Chris went to St Anthony's and I went to Kellenberg HS which were big rivals. I can proudly say I never lost to a St Anthony's wrestler. The boys think I'm carrying the rivalry into adulthood and they might be right. Chris A might put up a decent fight against PAC and he might get that jab pumping and look impressive. I say Chris A would box circles around Broner. Broner is not that impressive and should get back down to 135 ASAP. Someone compared Roy Jones Jr to Broner and I can't see it. Roy dealt with B level opponents like he should have, he took them out in spectacular fashion. Broner has a lot of work to do and he really has to improve. Good for Taylor for coming to fight. Just like Paulie said , Broner does not really hit hard. Lucas M would catch Broner on the ropes and it will be goodnight. Garcia would beat Broner too. Which top guy would Broner be favored over? I can't think of any.


-stormcentre :

Broner is a dead sucker for a counter right hand (as he throws his), and a counter left hook (as he throws his). Let Berto (or Algeri or "1 Time" Thurman) at him I say. Anyone with speed, stamina, pressure and the ability to think on their feet. If it's someone with all that, and power (or someone trading speed for timing and power); I won't be surprised to see him go down (again). Keep him away from guy's like Matthysse and perhaps even Thurman and Garcia; if you're Broner's manager, as (at this stage) he cant's afford to be in with anyone that can hit him hard on that constantly moving jaw of his, and make him pay. Even his use of the shoulder roll, or Philly Crab or whatever different locales like to call/own it; it questionable and potentially an unmitigated disaster; driven - in my opinion - more by ego than sound defence. I don't think it would be too hard for a top level contender to push him back into his shoulder roll, milk that rebound right cross out of him and then hit him (whilst he's off balance and/or leaning back) with any of the above 2 counter shots I mentioned. Still, despite Taylor being a little overwhelmed with the intensity of the fight's pace, Adrien got the "W" this weekend and that's good for him.


-The Shadow :

Broner is a dead sucker for a counter right hand (as he throws his), and a counter left hook (as he throws his). Let Berto (or Algeri or "1 Time" Thurman) at him I say. Anyone with speed, stamina, pressure and the ability to think on their feet. If it's someone with all that, and power (or someone trading speed for timing and power); I won't be surprised to see him go down (again). Keep him away from guy's like Matthysse and perhaps even Thurman and Garcia; if you're Broner's manager, as (at this stage) he cant's afford to be in with anyone that can hit him hard on that constantly moving jaw of his, and make him pay. Even his use of the shoulder roll, or Philly Crab or whatever different locales like to call/own it; it questionable and potentially an unmitigated disaster; driven - in my opinion - more by ego than sound defence. I don't think it would be too hard for a top level contender to push him back into his shoulder roll, milk that rebound right cross out of him and then hit him (whilst he's off balance and/or leaning back) with any of the above 2 counter shots I mentioned. Still, despite Taylor being a little overwhelmed with the intensity of the fight's pace, Adrien got the "W" this weekend and that's good for him.
Great analysis, Storm. Since he's now in 140 contention, how do you see Kostya Tszyu, a guy you know a lot about, a) fight him and b) fare against him? Strategy, outcome and the whole nine.


-dino da vinci :

So would Matthysse !
...and me!


-Radam G :

Great analysis, Storm. Since he's now in 140 contention, how do you see Kostya Tszyu, a guy you know a lot about, a) fight him and b) fare against him? Strategy, outcome and the whole nine.
I'm probably beating Storm to it. But Kostya Tszyu kayos Broner -- as he did Zab Judah -- within seconds of the first round. Holla!


-stormcentre :

:o


-stormcentre :

Broner still has his mouth wide open. Is his pop getting shorter and fatter?
Yes I think it/he (both the mouth and object that created it) just may be. Great observation of the not quite so obvious. I had not previously noticed. He he he. :)


-stormcentre :

Great analysis, Storm. Since he's now in 140 contention, how do you see Kostya Tszyu, a guy you know a lot about, a) fight him and b) fare against him? Strategy, outcome and the whole nine.
OK Give me a second to put something together for you.


-stormcentre :

Great analysis, Storm. Since he's now in 140 contention, how do you see Kostya Tszyu, a guy you know a lot about, a) fight him and b) fare against him? Strategy, outcome and the whole nine.
OK please jump to here . . . . .
->http://www.thesweetscience.com/forums/showthread.php?17186-The-Extended-Left-Arm-amp-Eastern-Bloc-(Techniques)-Revisited&p=63353#post63353


-The Shadow :

OK please jump to here . . . . .
->http://www.thesweetscience.com/forums/showthread.php?17186-The-Extended-Left-Arm-amp-Eastern-Bloc-(Techniques)-Revisited&p=63353#post63353
Awesome! Thanks, checking it out now!


-brownsugar :

I think Broner, although he has spectacular natural athleticism, regresses to the lowest common denominator far as boxing technique and fundamentals are concerned. He fell in love with a "shortcut" of sorts when he had the size advantsge in lighter weight classes. He learned that he could lead with his hip.. leaning into his opponents from the waist down while being long enough in the torso to twist away from punches and occasionally hide behind his shoulder in a modified shoulder roll. (The bootleg version) It works if his opponent agrees to cooperate and stands right next to him or are leaning into him. Something like the nonverbal agreement that "inside" fighters make when they agree to bang away in close quarters. But when a fighter doesn't want to play Broners game and attacks from a reasonable distance Broner just gets hit and doesn't even bother to bring his hands up. Lazy boxing. And Broner won't move his feet. A fighter cant omit key elements of the game like being able to box on his toes and not expect to be exploited. By not being able ( or I should say willing ) to move properly he's automatically fighting at a disadvantage. He's just a blatant target who is just egotistical enough to belief he can anticipate every punch and miraculously get out of the way. He makes fights twice as hard as they need to be just for the sake and pretense of having a "unique style". But he fought hard on Saturday and dug deep when he needed to. I just wonder if he will ever learn to set the proper priorities. His coach needs to take him all the way back to the basics again. Great comments on this thread from the TSS on this happy Mondsy