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F-LO TAKEDOWN: Mayweather Versus 10 Of The Greatest Welters In History
By Frank Lotierzo
I recently read a long piece by Gavin Evans on Ring TV.com's blog where he discusses what would happen if Floyd Mayweather Jr. fought ten of the greatest welterweights in history. In it Mr. Evans concludes that Mayweather would lose to Sugar Ray Robinson, Sugar Ray Leonard, Charley Burley and Thomas Hearns. I totally concur with him, and don't believe any one of the four greats listed, at their best, would have to struggle in any way to defeat Mayweather.
On the flip side he sees Mayweather coming out victorious over Henry Armstrong, Kid Gavilan, Jose Napoles, Carmen Basilio, Emile Griffith and Mickey Walker. Here, I couldn't disagree more. Had Jose Luis Castillo been awarded the decision he earned and deserved versus Mayweather in their first fight and Floyd had one loss on his record, Mayweather's name wouldn't be involved in this conversation.
Evans said, "Even keeping it to the last 100 years, there are greats we have to leave out – Jack Britton, Ted ‘Kid’ Lewis, Barney Ross, Jimmy McLarnin, Luis Rodriguez, Roberto Duran, Pernell Whitaker, Felix Trinidad and Oscar De La Hoya."
Maybe the fact the author included Oscar De La Hoya as one of the all-time great welterweights in history tells us all we need to know about how limited his scope is pertaining to professional boxing. Just in case anyone is not sure - Oscar De La Hoya was not a great welterweight. As a fighter there's not one thing he did great. Sure he was tough and fought the best of his era, but never did he once separate himself from the three best welterweights he fought, Pernell Whitaker, Felix Trinidad and Shane Mosley. Giving him the benefit of every doubt he went 1-1-1 in those bouts.
This "today's fighters are faster, stronger, better conditioned, and have more skills" type BS has to be seen as the nonsense it is. Fighters today are at a deficit in each one of those categories. The argument that the old-timers could do no wrong is ill founded, just as the one suggesting today's fighters are human wrecking machines is flawed.
As for Mayweather, I really believe many of his staunchest supporters confuse the combination of slickness, sharpness, great reflexes, and the alertness under fire that Mayweather possesses with speed. Superficially, they look like the same thing. Zab Judah is faster than Mayweather, and was out-speeding him for the first five or six rounds of their fight (he hits harder too.) He just doesn't have near Floyd's boxing IQ.
I'm not going to break down the sizes and weights precisely of the greats listed for this. If you don't know their record and physical measurements then Mr. Evans's piece is great remedial reading for you. I write for a sophisticated boxing observer, and am fully aware that some miss what I'm saying. That's okay because there's a plethora of boxing content available via the Internet in 2010.
It's important to understand that, although Mayweather is a slick enough fighter by today's standards to outthink and outmaneuver virtually anyone he faces, all of the fighters Evans writes about would have seen everything that Mayweather could show them dozens and dozens of times. Evans excludes Luis Rodriguez from his top ten welterweight list, but believe me, there's not one thing that Floyd Mayweather does as well as Luis Rodriguez.
If Jose Luis Castillo could pressure Mayweather into what should've been his first defeat, Henry Armstrong, stronger, faster, better conditioned, and possessing a far more daunting workrate (to say nothing about the tricks of the trade involving his elbows, forearms, and head that he'd use), would run Mayweather out of the ring. It's true that Armstrong wasn't a great puncher at 147, so Floyd would probably survive. But there's no offensive component to his arsenal that would allow him to bother Hank for a minute.
In Jose Napoles, Mayweather would find himself facing someone even slicker than he is, but with one significant difference. Napoles could punch. Mayweather wouldn't dare trade with Mantequilla. In a straight out boxing match, they'd be close, but because Napoles was much more offensive-minded, it would be hard for Floyd to win a decision. And Napoles' power would keep him on edge all night. Realistically, Floyd's only chance would be to try to potshot Jose in order to bust him up and force the TKO win (Napoles had a tendency to cut around the eyes.) That happened to Napoles exactly twice in 88 pro fights. I don't like Mayweather's odds.
Although Mickey Walker was not as great a welterweight as Ray Robinson (no one was), he's the guy who, aside from possibly Hearns, would beat Mayweather most easily. And he'd have a great time doing it. Nothing in Mayweather's anemic offense would slow Mickey down for a fraction of a second. He would put more pressure on Floyd than Mayweather would believe possible. The guy who Walker most resembled offensively was Roberto Duran. He never let you rest, he mixed his combinations brilliantly, working the head and body, and he was a murderous puncher with either hand. And, unlike Floyd Mayweather, Walker loved to fight.
Harry Greb, probably the second greatest fighter who ever lived behind Robinson, couldn't stop Mickey Walker (and he knew a lot more ways to cut up his opponents than Floyd Mayweather will ever imagine.) Heavyweight champion Jack Sharkey, a 200 pounder with real pop, couldn't do it either. Does Gavin Evans really believe that powder puff punching Floyd Mayweather, the guy who couldn't knock out a used up Oscar De La Hoya or an overfed, over-aged featherweight (admittedly a great one) in Juan Manuel Marquez would kayo a prime Mickey Walker? Among a long list of really stupid assertions, this one may be the dumbest. Mickey Walker routinely knocked out 200 pound men who weren't stiffs. And he would have knocked Floyd Mayweather loopy without the slightest problem.
Does Evans realize what a life-taker Florentino Fernandez was? And Griffith had his way with him bettering him boxing and physically moving him around the ring wherever he wanted. Emile took the trilogy he had with Benny "Kid" Paret who was an aggressive fighter who could box and punch. But he couldn't handle Griffith's upper-body strength, pressure and hand speed. It's doubtful that Mayweather has ever seen the likes of a Paret, let alone suggesting he could handle a welterweight who not only was the first to drop Dick Tiger, but chased him up to light heavyweight. Tiger was so good he beat Jose Torres to capture the light heavyweight title and held onto it until he was knocked out at the very end of his career by Bob Foster.
Griffth was an aggressive counter-puncher. He wasn't manhandled by middleweights the likes of Nino Benvenuti, Carlos Monzon and Dick Tiger. Emile was too strong for the great Luis Rodriguez to box for the duration of the fight. What does Floyd Mayweather posses in his arsenal to keep Griffith from walking him down and working him over? Nothing, based on his fights with Judah, Baldomir and De La Hoya.
Mayweather's slight advantage in height wouldn't have mattered a bit. And for Evans to consider Mayweather the puncher in a match up with Griffith is laughable. Griffth threw straight punches and they were fast. He also could throw short powerful hooks and uppercuts inside. Couple that with his freakish physical strength and stamina, how does Mayweather hold off a fighter who he holds no physical advantage over? Fighting Griffith, as it would be the case with Basilio, Mayweather would discover early in the fight that's it's a lifetime different moving back on your own than it is when you're being forced to do it. Mayweather being forced back would be fighting to stabilize the fight and wouldn't be in control like he was facing the fighters he's fought. It would be impossible for him to win a decision over Griffith being forced to fight Emile's fight.
As for Kid Gavilan - he would've reigned for years as welterweight champ had Sugar Ray Robinson not been fighting in the same division. As Evans correctly stated, Gavilan lost a disputed decision to Robinson the first time they fought. In the rematch for the title Robinson won a non-controversial decision over Gavilan. However, that was Robinson at his best. A welterweight who had a better punch assortment, hit harder, threw more of them and faster than Mayweather ever dreamed he could. Plus Robinson was mean and nasty and almost impossible to hurt at 147. If Gavilan can hang with Robinson and deal with a rough-house and tough guy like Carmen Basilio, what's Mayweather gonna do with Gavilan?
I completely disagreed with Evans when he said Mayweather hits harder than Gavilan. He may hold the edge in defensive prowess, but he's not beating Gavilan with his defense. A motivated Gavilan would neutralize Mayweather's speed and defense. When Gavilan cut loose he put combinations together in multiples. If Mayweather engaged him he'd lose because "The Keed" would get there with more and wouldn't have to break off the exchanges. In order for Mayweather to beat Gavilan, he'd need to be at his best and catch Gavilan on a night where he wasn't fighting with a sense of urgency - and even at that it wouldn't be enough. If Evans only sees a split decision for Mayweather, he's telegraphing how unsure he is about the outcome. I'm not. Gavilan controls Mayweather inside and outside and wins a comfortable decision over a fighter who isn't a better boxer or strong enough to unnerve him.
Imagine if De La Hoya was more aggressive and stronger on the night he fought Floyd. Oscar has no inside hook or right hand and had Mayweather stymied with his roughhouse tactics and a half hearted jab that he threw. If Basilio could drop Gavilan for a nine-count, and bull Robinson around the ring for fifteen rounds as he smothered him (and that was a middleweight Robinson), how on God's earth would Mayweather keep Carmen off of him?
Some fighters are too strong to box - and that's what would've transpired had Basilio and Mayweather crossed paths at their welterweight best. Mayweather's seize the moment pot-shot offense doesn't match up with the real authentic swarmers like some of the greats from past eras. (There's a dearth of good attackers/swarmers fighting today). Basilio pushed a beast like Gene Fullmer back and forced him to fight in retreat. Mayweather's hand speed would keep him from getting totally overwhelmed, but he's never experienced the type pressure and aggression that Basilio would bring. Imagine Castillo three fold with more tenacity and power. When Mayweather let his hands go against Basilio, it would be out of need and he'd be rushing his punches, therefore he'd have even less on them. Floyd couldn't beat Carmen fighting in the mode where he's just trying to keep Carmen off of him. And he doesn't have the physical strength or power to keep Basilio from forcing the fight from bell-to-bell. Maybe Mayweather opens a cut on Basilio and the fight would be stopped, but even at that he'd be behind in the scoring. Again, some fighters are too strong to box, and Carmen Basilio was one of them. Mayweather wasn't nearly strong enough to outbox Basilio and would have to hold on just to make it the distance.
At least Mr. Evans had the presence of mind to recognize that four of his top ten welterweights (Robinson, Leonard, Hearns, and Burley) would have beaten Floyd Mayweather. From there on, his sense once again deserts him: he believes that three of the four fights would have been close, with only Hearns potentially winning decisively. You don't get close to beating fighters of this caliber without a formidable offensive arsenal. Floyd Mayweather has nowhere near the tools to be competitive with any of these four. Three of them would have knocked Mayweather out effortlessly. Leonard might not have, but he would have completely controlled the fight from start to finish. But if forced to pick, Leonard would've had to have been pulled off of Mayweather the way he was Hearns the first time they fought.
Floyd Mayweather doesn't have the strength or physical skill to defeat one of the ten welterweight greats Mr. Evans listed. Having Mayweather going 6-4 is a pipe-dream, 0-10 is more like it. And in case anyone is wondering, Manny Pacquiao equals Mayweather here as well, as he would also be shutout going 0-10 against the same field of welterweight greats.
Frank Lotierzo can be contacted at GlovedFist@Gmail.com
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MisterLee:
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F-lo is going on borderline GOAT status fo' sho! Where you at real talk? You staying out of the snow storm? Stay safe! Holler!
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 04:11:17 PM
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DEEPWATER:
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mayweather wouldnt get past the weigh in with walker and greb. mayweather can not be talked about as an all time great with his current resume.
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 04:31:45 PM
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jacob:
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You really have no clue about boxing, Floyd Mayweather may not have beaten the great Sugar Ray Robinson but there again he may not have lost, I think you are seriously undderating Mayweather as a boxer, you also made a very silly statement in ''Zab Juah is faster, than Mayweather'', ''He hits harder to'',
Zab is not faster than Mayweather the reason he looks so fast is because he flicks his shots and does not throw them properly, also could you inlighten me on how you came to the conclusion that Zab hit harder than Mayweather? have you boxed them both? or been hit by both? if not i would loe to know how you came to that conclusion, it would be like me saying Mike Tyson hit harder than Joe Fraizer.
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 04:31:57 PM
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Frank Z:
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Absolutely. I especially am happy that F-lo pointed out that today's fighters are supposedly better conditioned, faster, and stronger, and that's all BS. boxing strength is specific to BOXING. what makes you a strong boxer is much more complicated than just having a strong bench press or a high vertical leap. the old school boxers stayed in boxing condition by boxing all the time, in the gym, in the fights, and from extensive roadwork. now we got this mix of conditioning coaches and trainers and it's not working out. ask antonio tarver how that worked against hopkins, ask oscar de la hoya how that worked when he got too muscle bound as he tried to move up in weight past welter. sugar shane even said himself that he doens't lift anymore cause it messed up his boxing. strength training IS important, but it has to be very boxing specific and bodyweight exercises, and running is probably the most important work you can do outside the boxing gym. the only conditioning coach i've seen actually do effective work is alex ariza with pacquiao, and that's only after the approval of freddie roach, who remember is a product of eddie futch. on to the main topic. yes, floyd would absolutely get smoked by the top all time welters. we have so many names that we don't know cause they fought in an era of only one belt, which f-lo touches on with robinson's reign. basically anyone during that era who wasn't the greatest welterweight of all time wouldn't have gotten remembered as a champ. i've said this before on these threads, but the huggers can't seem to handle the fact that most boxers today juts have no way of measuring up to all timers, cause the game has changed and the game is a hindrance. floyd even had he fought all the names that everyone calls him to fight, would have only had to learn new tricks and truly elevate his game and knowledge against shane mosley. floyd is one of the most skilled all around boxers of today, but his tendency to coast when he knows he's ahead is what puts him a notch below ray leonard. he would not be able to touch pernell whitaker with his unique and elusive defense, he would not be able to handle the offense of sugar ray leonard, who in addition to being slicker and quicker, was a MUCH harder puncher. you go back, and you really look, there's just too many boxers, too many great fighters, that you can't rank today's guys up there. even with pacquiao, he hits hard and he swarms and moves his feet, ok, could he get in on leonard and hearns and hurt them? he sure as hell can't stand in and take a right hand from hearns. he had problems with cotto's jab, and hearns had HUGE advantages in reach and height on cotto. either way i'm sputtering off, thanks f-lo for this piece. boxing as a sport has declined, so with it have the number of great fighters. only thing that hasn't declined is the number of titles.
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 04:32:02 PM
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seriously:
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glad to see that Lotierzo stays the same biased paternalistic writer he is always been... keep up with this level of writing, Frank and you will end up writing in even worse websites!
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 04:41:56 PM
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Frank Z@ jacob:
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nah he woulda lost. have you seen robinson's fights? zab does hit harder cause you can see how his opponents respond to getting caught clean by him compared to mayweather. mayweather is excellent in what he does as a pure boxer, but his attack is just not varied enoguh to touch a ray robinson, or even any of those rough and tough pressure fighters f-lo named. harry greb apparently wasn't a hard puncher but he made up for that by never standing still, constantly flowing and on the attack, hitting folks from all angles. don't pull that crap that you have to be in the ring to know what you're talking about. f-lo himself is a former boxer.
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 04:42:53 PM
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Frank Z:
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also please take note f-lo mentions pacquiao would also go 0-10 against the all time welters top 10. he would get roughed up and tossed aroudn on the inside by the ultimate swarmer hank armstrong, he would actually be at a speed disadvantage against robinson.
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 04:44:52 PM
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DEEPWATER:
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nothing in floyds aresonal would discourage greb or walker. nothing.
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 04:46:05 PM
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DEEPWATER:
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all the ref's back in the day were like steve smoger. the refs let the fighters work hard on the inside, wouldnt break as much. floyd and his shoulder roll and footwork would only get so far
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 04:51:01 PM
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MisterLee:
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@ Frank Z, i can't speak for all the guys as I 'm not familar with all of them, but I think pacquiao would give SRL and TH a run for the money. As good as tommy was, he had weak chin and fades when hurt. SRL would stand in there and bang, but pacquiao has equal if not greater power than SRL, and he's 2x faster (have you seen SRL outclass someone so badly, i mean an A level fighter, using speed so fast the opponent couldn't respond?). If hurt, tommy hearns would be in trouble, if pacquiao could get past the right, tommy would be holding on for life, and pacquiao is an expert finisher. Just my opinion. Good stuff, keep it up!
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 04:52:00 PM
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#1 PacFan "Pacquiao by TKO in the 8th":
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I totally agree with this article! It shed some light on me regarding the past greats. But I wouldn't go as far as Manny going 0-10 if faced with those past greats. Manny loves to fight who has a solid chin and packs power in both hands. I would say he would fair against Hearns who has a vulnerable chin but then again there's the reach advantage over Pac. Sugar Ray Leonard would outbox Manny for sure. SRR would do real damage on him as well. I think he would fair against Kid Gavilan as well. I say he can atleast win 2-8 out of the bunch.
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 05:03:54 PM
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#1 PacFan "Pacquiao by TKO in the 8th":
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MisterLee beat me to it.
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 05:04:34 PM
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Cox's Corner:
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Excellent article and I agree. PBF goes 0-10 against these truly great fighters. The n00bs who think otherwise just dont know that they don't know. As for some of the responses about Frank he knows more about boxing than these internet click and blabber boys ever will. Frank is a former fighter who had an outstanding amateur record and sparred with many top professional middleweights in tough Philly gyms. For someone to say he doesnt know boxing is like saying the pope doesnt know how to say hail mary. Frank is one of the most knowledge boxing men I have ever encountered in understanding what it actually takes to win in the ring.
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 05:05:49 PM
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MisterLee:
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Didn't merchant say armstrong was a volume puncher, not a power puncher? Wouldn't pacquiao fare well agst him as well? Holler!
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 05:06:06 PM
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dp69:
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Scareweather versus the alltime great welterweights?...0-10...a prime DLH would of eat that bum for dinner...Trinidad would of KO his @$$...Duran would of walk all over him...Camacho would of toy with him...Burley...hearns...Leonard...and Robinson would of had easy victory over scareweather...the truth hurts...lol...BTW...Great article F-LO...holla back!!!
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 05:27:44 PM
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Frank Z@ Misterlee:
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acutally yeah he has, check his fight with andy "the hawk" price, set him up beautifully. also remember he stopped wilfred benitez, one of the best defensive fightesr of all time. took him 15 roudns to do it, but he also knocked hiim down twice during that course.
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 05:33:12 PM
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Frank Z@ #1Pacfan:
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dude.... kid gavilan? he who went life and death according to all accounts when he fought SRR the first time? the dude who took his hardest shot and laughed? yeah hearns has a weak chin but it took SRL about 12-13 rounds to get to it. you really think manny would beat hearns and gavilan? name one thing manny has that they don't, now name things that they had that manny doesn't.
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 05:36:35 PM
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Radam G:
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Nice, nice piece, Superfightscribe F-Lo! I LIKE the way you flow! But we have only seen the original welterweight Sugar Ray Robinson once on a picture show! Straight-up flims, and not as a welterweight. I actually saw an amateur featherweight SRR and one welterweight SRR on film. Most people who saw him live, tell me that he was better at welterweight than middleweight. I find this typical to say. Of course they want to keep the myth going strong and alive like a religion. Like you F-Lo, I know the Biggies of the sports. But I also know the politics and image making of the sports and the yesteryears' racism and "hero making for those people." One should never turn his head to reality. The powers that be in the late 1930s and1940s singled out Sugar Ray Robinson and Joe Louis in boxing and Jackie Robinson in baseball to be "colored people sports examples and heroes." The back then powers that be help SRR to duck the "best colored fighters" and even fighters of Filipino and Puerta Rican ethnicities. [TSS Fightscribe B-Fern -- Bernard Fernandez -- wrote about how one Filipino who fought SRR were thought of as black. Holla at his piece in the archives.] (Many cockeyed white racists thought that many Filipinos living in Louisiana, Texas and California, and Ricans living in New York, Washington D.C. and Maryland were too "negroid looking not to be thought of as negroes." And the Floyd Mayweather-acting black types of that era were slapped to the side or avoided like a plague. Some were even killed outside the hurt bitnezz. It is not just a coincident that in the sports thought to be something that only white men could be superior in produced two greats with the last name of Robinson. A few years later, basketball could only produced a great "colored outside shooter with the name Robinson" -- Oscar Robinson. Lmfao! Just a coincident that all the pioneers of these sports were Robinsons. (Somebody ought to look at the FBI and National Archives files, and get out of the darn fishbowl.) Is every darn body, except for about 10 of us, dumb a$$es born in the 1970s and 1980s and don't know how to research! And we believe that yesteryears every d*mn thing was so f*cking superior to nowadays, despite all the prejudices, racism, selectionism, jingoism and every type of ism known to mankind. As the Irish GOAT Muhammad Ali says, "after Jack Johnson," every N___was going to be a certain type of Uncle Tom. Jack Johnson was a bad N___. They had to make up stuff to bring that N__ down. That sucka's dead as door nail and they still won't forgive him." One can go on Youtube and hear everything that GOAT Ali said. And by the way -- fibbing haters and faders -- I put the GOAT label on Irish Ali, not Buffalo Soldier Mayweather. So get outta my grill and go somewhere else for your thrill. I'll have more to say later. Bring yall arses to the WIldcard gym and stand outside. You just may get a PacMan autograph. Holla!
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 05:37:49 PM
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DEEPWATER@frank z:
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hey Frank. bernard hopkins used mackey shilstone as a strength coach for the tarver fight. mackey shillstone also helped train lt heavyweight spinks into the dude that beat holmes. strength coaches can help alot but the old guys were always in fighting shape becouse they fought every few weeks in the ring or out of it.
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 05:53:09 PM
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Frank Z@ Radam:
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actually, boxing is the only sport where i would say yesteryears fighters were better than today's. the scene was just bigger. think about how much boxing has entered american culture into the way we speak, phrases we use, the fame of all time greats (SRR being on a stamp, ali, etc.). every neighborhood used to have a club and there were all kinds of boxing venues. losing didn't mean as much so fighters learned more cause they weren't as afraid to take on fights they might lose. trainers therefore learned more as well. not to mention that now with the NFL and NBA at its peak more talented athletes want to play football and basketball, not just big guys, guys who could ahve been middleweights are putting on 40 lbs of extra muscle to be wide receivers and running backs. in boxing the knowledge has not been passed down as well, whereas in say basketball it has been building and improving as the ABA came and went, and then the NBA took off, on top of which it has a richer talent to pick from a better scientific knowledge to go with the basketball skills and culture. boxing has LOST culture and the modern sports science has clashed with boxing for th emost part in how to improve fightesr strength speed andn endurance.
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 05:56:28 PM
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MisterLee:
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@ Frank Z: Thanks! I'll watch Benitez tonight fo' sho!
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 06:14:46 PM
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Frank Z@ Deepwater:
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yeah mackey does seem like he's knolwedgeable, but i saw the documentary when he trained jones against ruiz, and the stuff he was saying was stuff that a real knowledgeable trainer would say anyway, how to break a man psychologically, where to hit him etc. my old boxing coach coulda said a lot of that stuff and he's not even a famous trainer. there's still a ton of knowledgeable trainers who never get the name cause of the corrupt amateur and pro system.
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 06:23:34 PM
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Frank Z@ Misterlee:
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yeah man definitely check him out. dude was a prodigy in every sense. barely trained, apparently only trained 2 weeks to get ready for hearns who he went 15 rounds with. also on armstrong, larry merchant called him a volume puncher but come on how much does merchant really know about boxing? dude said joe frazier was a face first slugger when he's nothing of the sort. pacquiao is also a volume puncher, with the exception of hatton who helped his power out a bit by jumping into that huge left hand. against cotto the first knockdown came when he leapt forward and caught cotto leaning too far over, theh 2nd one came when cotto was tryign to fight off the ropes and jumped down onto pac's left hand. armstrong didn't just go out and throw a bunch punches either, he was spectacular and sliding inside, using his jab to keep the other (usually taller) guy from throwing shots over the top of him, and he was masterful at rough tactics and tricks on the inside, how to move a guy into punches, how to pull on the arms and elbows so the other dude coudlnt' punch etc. thinka bout it, everyone who fought armstrong knew he was going to try to swarm them on the inside, but he was still able to almost capture 4 belts in a time where theere were only 8.
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 06:27:53 PM
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Radam G:
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Depending on the era in which they would have fought in, Mayweather would have beein 22-9 IMHO! In all eras, fighters have fought more than once. I never said that Sugar Ray Robinson would not beat Money-short May. I said that Money-short May would beat Sugar Ray Robinson, as a lot did. In the battle of great welterweights, they would have all lost to one another. So let us be reality, cut out the prejudice in time, era and style. Styles make fights. Tommy Hearns would have cut Money-short May up a couple of times, but Money-short May would have beat him two out three times. Money-short would have been an Iran Barkely to Tommy Hearns. Sugar Ray Leonard would beat Money-short May two out of three bouts. The amount of times that a fighter is beat by another doesn't take away overall greatness. Example: Sandy Saddlers had the most wins against Willie Pep, but Pep is above him as an all-time great. Sugar Ray Robinson has the most losses to Gene Fullmer, but Fullmer is nowhere in the league of all-time great. There are many variable that be must taken into consideration. In the 1920-62, welterweights fought with six-ounce gloves. During that time, Money May would have lost bouts on cuts and probably kayo to quite a bit of boxers. But he would have beat the same boxers with the eight-ounce gloves and rule of nowadays. More of the boxers of the 1900-1960 would be handicapped in this era of quick stoppages by referees and no excess clinching or holding behind the head. I will never buy that yesterdays' pugilists could beat Floyd Mayweather or even green-arse Tim "Desert Storm" Bradley within the rules of nowadays' boxing. Boxers learn how to perform in the era that they are in. Not in the era of somebody else. Boxing is war! And warriors adapt to the time. General MacArthur would have kicked Alexander the Great's arse in war of modern terms. Alexander the Great would have kicked Gen. MacArrthur's butt in anicent war. Sugar Ray Robinson and most of the welterweights of yesteryears could not adapt to the modern arse-whupping that Tito Trinidad, Sugar Ray Leonard, Don Curry, Floyd Mayweather, Tommy Hearns, Hector Camacho and even Pernell Whitaker would put on them. Bow and arror don't beat guns, and guns and cannon don't beat nukes. Holla!
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 07:03:59 PM
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john:
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please? why u all h8in on floyd mayweather. He is the best, number 1. He would have beaten every single welterweight there is!!
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 07:22:37 PM
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Keefster:
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Dispelling the 'All-time Greats' mythology
The fatal flaw made by the author is in MAGNIFYING the qualities of the 'All-time Greats', and minimizing the qualities of PBF and other 'modern era fighters. It's quite a common mistake, made by ATG sycophants, to win the favor of the crowd, common sense and intelligence be damned.....
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 08:01:58 PM
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madaR G:
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I have done my research F-LO, and I am convinced that Floyd Mayweather may just be not only the greatest welterweight of all time, but the greatest "Pound for Pound" fighter of all time. I matched his skills, talent and moves with the late Sugar Ray Robinson, fed it to a computer program and Floyd beats Sugar Ray in every way. I am not going into detail, but Robinson -- at 5-9 3/4, but listed at 5-11 -- had trouble with short, mobile boxer-bangers. Twenty-two of his 26 losts are to fighters shorter than 5-7. All you haters keep drinking your haterrade and get angry all you want, but the truth is the truth. You know Sugar Ray Robinson would been owned by Pernell Withaker, Hector Camacho and, big time with Roberto Duran. Floyd "Money" Mayweather has problems with no particular fighter, so he is indeed the ultimate P4P king of all times. Holla!
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 08:22:37 PM
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Cowtown DJ Maxdown fr Funkytown, Texas:
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I agree with Radam! Sugar Ray Robinson and every other fighter of that era were beatable, expect for Rocky Marciano. Now take me that he would not kick Robinson's ass.
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 08:30:43 PM
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madaR G:
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F-Lo you a sizzlin' superscribe but you a sippin' on too much nostalgia! You say that 'although Mickey Walker was not as great a welterweight as Ray Robinson (no one was)...' No one was!? Gosh! Hector Camacho woulda kayoed Sugar-free RR! Quit making excuses for SRR. He got his a$$ whipped, PERIOD! A primed a$$. Don't tell me all this crap about how great he was. He was flawed, just like every human being. What your excuse for 5'6 1/2 bum Ralph Jones tapping that Sugar man's a$$? If a journeyman-bum Ralph Jones beat a prime SRR, BULL SPIT if Money May would not tax that a$$. Holla!
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 08:32:44 PM
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Lyd:
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Pretty Face Floyd Mayweather is going to beat this old Sugar Shane Mosley. I hope that he gets courage to fight Manny Pacquiao. The pretty boy will knock out Mosley, but Manny will knock them both out.
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 08:35:45 PM
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Radar:
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More crap from this so-called boxing scribe. Let's just say that if this guy gets a 1-1-1 (=3) out of the four fights between Oscar and Whitaker, Trinidad, and Mosley then why waste our time reading any futher? It's not outrageous to suggest that Oscar could be as high as 3-1 in those bouts. The only clear cut loss was the first Mosley bout. Lotierzo or "F-Lo" if you'd rather, you're seriously starting to sound no different than maniacally obsessed, biased idiots like Steve Kim and Doug Fischer. That's as deep an insult as it gets and it's absolutely accurate. The only real test Mayweather has faced in 40 pro fights was the first Castillo fight. He was outweighed by 11 pounds and fought with multiple significant injuries. When healthy in the rematch he was still outweighed significantly and won it cleanly. It also must be added that styles make fights and Castillo - a damn good fighter in his prime who fought at close to 150 at the bell - had a style that gave Mayweather some issues. Every fighter has a nemesis in that way. Guess what? He solved those issues and everything else to come his way since he turned pro. Yes, he's that good and easily would stand up to the best of any era.
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 08:52:51 PM
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Mike M:
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When you start comparing Floyd to HOFers like Leonard, Hearns, and Duran you start realizing how thin Floyd's resume is and how Floyd cannot even be considered in the same conversation. 20 years from now people will be scratching their heads wondering how the so called #1 or #2 PFPer did not fight any of the top guys during his reign such as Cotto, Williams, Margarito, Mosley, etc. Instead he has beaten lower top 10 welterweights such as Judah and Baldomir, a blown up jr. welterweight in Hatton, a blown up lightweight in Marquez, fighters past their prime in De La Hoya and Gatti. That is no coincidence. And once a 38 year old Mosley TCOB on May 1st we might not be having this conversation anymore. Floyd has great skills but he has wasted the last few years in terms of creating a legacy as a great fighter. He has made alot of money though and I give him top marks as a businessman and credit for getting the most dollars out of his fights.
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 08:56:06 PM
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Mike M:
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Nice article Frank.
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 09:02:42 PM
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Hakim:
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Radam I love ya man but ya said that Floyd Mayweather was the best P4P fighter of all time!! I know you remember, because youre a smart cat, and not wobbly noggin'ed! Only your opinions are wobbly noggin'ed! I respect ya but I gots to call ya out! I'm going with fighterwriter F-Lo's opinion that its Ray Robinson and NOT Floyd!!! Heck, I agree with the sage F-Lo that Floyd's not even a top-10 welter, let alone all time P4P.
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 09:08:30 PM
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Hakim:
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Radam I love ya man but ya said that Floyd Mayweather was the best P4P fighter of all time!! I know you remember, because youre a smart cat, and not wobbly noggin'ed! Only your opinions are wobbly noggin'ed! I respect ya but I gots to call ya out! I'm going with fighterwriter F-Lo's opinion that its Ray Robinson and NOT Floyd!!! Heck, I agree with the sage F-Lo that Floyd's not even a top-10 welter, let alone all time P4P.
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 09:08:35 PM
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Hakim:
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Radam I love ya man but ya said that Floyd Mayweather was the best P4P fighter of all time!! I know you remember, because youre a smart cat, and not wobbly noggin'ed! Only your opinions are wobbly noggin'ed! I respect ya but I gots to call ya out! I'm going with fighterwriter F-Lo's opinion that its Ray Robinson and NOT Floyd!!! Heck, I agree with the sage F-Lo that Floyd's not even a top-10 welter, let alone all time P4P.
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 09:08:37 PM
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Hakim:
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sorry for the trifecta...
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 09:09:21 PM
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Ha Kim not lil' Kim workin' hard:
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Floyd want him some Sugar. I got him! He's sweet music to me my ears and...I love him so much I just had to trifecta. I hope he is reading this. Lil Kim, stay away!
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 09:16:07 PM
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afan:
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well i don't agree with you with 0-10 mayweather vs the 10 listed.... mayweather is so skilled and is one of the best fighter when it comes to adjusting during the fight, and he is also one of the best defensive boxer...
samething with Pacquiao anyone predicting it 0-10 for Pacquiao is stupid, we all saw the development of pacquiao from slugger to a boxer-slugger and from one dimensional fighter to a thinking fighter... if there is an award for the most improved boxer i think he will win it every year... even the most improved boxer of the decade...
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 09:21:39 PM
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Ha Kim is who I am not lil Kim:
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Lil' Kim was Biggie Smalls' main B. I is Pretty Boy lil' Floyd main B. He is gonna be gettin' that Sugar. I just glad it's not from lil' Kim. I is Ha Kim, not lil' kim and I take care of me some lil Floyd fo' sure!
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 09:23:20 PM
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Hakim:
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Radam G has his fan club with all the peabrained puppy-dog sycophants, and I'm stuck on an island with F-LO...hmmm, I can live with that! F-Lo doesn't even consider your guy a top-10 welterweight!!! And you severely-challenged-in-da-noggin consider him the P4P GOAT!!! Attack me all you want, I welcome it with open arms, because I got the truth on my side. John 8:32 -- "Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." Now let me guess what is coming, insult, insult, STFU Ha Kim! B1@tch Ha Kim! But thye'll never defend their position. Oh the intellectual stimulation! You pups are clever!
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 09:25:55 PM
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Ha Kim not lil' Kim, I likes that:
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Sugar Shane is gonna be a shame if he put too much sugar on my lil Floyd bc I is not lil' Kim! Lil Floyd is going be getting all sweaty in that ring with that Sugar, but I'm his ha kim and much luv not lil' Kim.
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 09:27:32 PM
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Hakim:
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And for the record, Im a member of radams fan club too! I love the rhymes...just disagree with da content! Call me Ha Kim ya'll!
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 09:29:47 PM
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Ha Kim got somebody mad:
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Ya so stupid! Don't get mad Ha Kim, quit trying to be me. There is only one Main B lil Kim! Ya them sweaty. Sugar and sweat and money. Oh my God, Ha Kim! Ya som crazy fo' sure!
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 09:34:50 PM
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Hakim w/F-Lo and for SRR and NOT the lemmings and Floyd:
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"Sugar Shane is gonna be a shame if he put too much sugar on my lil Floyd bc I is not lil' Kim! Lil Floyd is going be getting all sweaty in that ring with that Sugar, but I'm his ha kim and much luv not lil' Kim." WOW! That was a good one. How did you come up with that SO quickly!!! You should be scribblin' for SI with that kind of wit and erudition!
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 09:36:52 PM
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Ha Kim not lil' Kim:
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Ha Kim not lil' Kim just feed lil Floyd some Sugar. He is going to tear it up. Sugar! Sugar! Sugar! Feed 'em sugar cubes, babbbeeeee Ha Kim not lil' Kim! Fo' sure!
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 09:40:22 PM
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Anonymous user:
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how could delahoya have gone 1-1-1 vs sweet pete, tito and shane? they fought 4 times ?
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 09:46:33 PM
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Sancho26:
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You're an idiot why would you say "Pacquiao versus fighter-X would be a bigger fight than Mayweather versus fighter-X"???? I know you can have your own opinion but don't say it like it's fact because you lose any credibility when there's no facts to back it up. I can guarantee you there's more proof to the contrary. How about Floyd vs. Oscar? Are you stupid enough to believe Manny had more PPV against Oscar than Floyd did? I wouldn't be surprised if it's the same thing with Hatton and Marquez. So I can understand you thinking Manny would be bigger from now on but don't say it like if it's a fact yet because like I said there's more proof that Floyd is bigger against fighter-x than Manny is against fighter-x. You can ride Manny's jock all you want that's fine I personally like both Manny and Floyd so I don't take any sides but I hate how all Manny jock riders will ignore Floyds numbers or accomplishments to make Manny seem better well have whatever opinion you want of them as fighters but there's no doubt Floyd has had more PPV buys. Manny might be bigger now and might make more money against the same fighter but don't be an idiot and say it like if it already happened. I know you're a bias journalist toward Manny but please don't make stuff up to make Manny seem even bigger than Floyd then he already might be. Just write about the facts we don't need these false "facts" you throw in there.
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 10:02:45 PM
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sanc:
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If you put all of Floyd's data to a computer and let the computer rate Mayweather's standing among welterweights of today and yesterdays, I don't think he'll be in the top 20. The computer would return: Can't compute insuffucient data.
Why do we place Mayweather in the top welterweights? He has not fought a welterweight of caliber. There are only 3 fighters who are legit welterweights who Floyd fought:
Judah
Baldomir
Mitchell
Do we have to install Floyd in the pinnacle if greatness by defeating these guys? Common!
Hatton, Dela Hoya and Marquez doesn't count. They are not welters. Unless Floyd demolish at least three in the welters top ten list, he has no business being ranked among them.
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 10:03:05 PM
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Yes Yo!:
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This 'would have", "could have" article makes for an entertaining reading to pass up time, but it means nothing. It's only speculation, a work of fiction born out of a fertile imagination. It's ridiculous how people argue about how one great fighter from one era could have done against another great fighter from another era! Mr. Lotierzo, the fact is, we don't know and we will never know! Let's just appreciate all these fighters from across the boxing eras for what they achieved in their own respective times and not demean and diminish them by saying that they would have fared badly against someone that they never faced inside the ring.
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 10:13:56 PM
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Eddie Manlig:
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To Frank Lotierzo.
1) Are you a member of the BWAA?
if not.....how would you compare yourself to those member
writers?
2) How would you compare Pacquiao's achievement to those
yesteryears 10 fighters?
No disrespect...I really want to know. Thanks.
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 10:21:35 PM
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mortcola:
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Mayweather is extremely fast in two respects: His reaction time to incoming punches (when on defense), and his single-shot counters. He is NOT a great combination puncher, and relies on getting his opponent lunging, tentative or off balance due to his great punch anticipation. Judah could bring a combination faster than Floyd, but would end up out of place - something that never happens to Floyd. Any well-coordinated pressure fighter of the top historic echelon could do what Castillo did, but better. Like Duran. Hearns did what DLH did, but much better, faster, and with greater power, and without losing his tactical focus. Leonard could just about match Floyd at Floyd's own game, but could change it up, flurry, move, and bully with far greater effectiveness. Floyd would have been COMPETITIVE against most of the greats some of the time - F-Lo really exaggerates when he talks about how easily anyone would have beaten him. But some of y'all have really bit down hard on the wiener that is Floyd's ego-machine. If any one of those greats been such a diva about fighting good, let alone great, welters in their era, they wouldn't have been in this discussion.
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 10:21:46 PM
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knives:
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you idiots always compare the present and the past fighters... but whoever wins is not for us to know since the fight did not really happened at all... but i still give the edge to the present fighters... the sport has evolved.. and the techniques of the past boxers was already adapted by the present fighters, plus the advanced training...
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 10:24:49 PM
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Kool-Aid:
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Wow. We've got a real love affair going on around here. This place is starting to resemble the Bowe-Golota1 aftermath.
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 10:41:59 PM
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band-aid:
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nobody even your all time great can PACMAN
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 10:51:20 PM
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Paclander:
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you compare floyd to the greats that he is not even fighting greats maybe THE GREATEST DUCKER OF ALL TIME THAT FITS HIM INSTEAD COMPARING TO THE GREATS
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 10:55:40 PM
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jellybelly:
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this site must a be owned by the mayweather family cuz 2 even discuss him as an all time anything is like discussing rocky juarez as an all time p4p great...i think many of these comments are just meant to get a reaction...any one with a brain knows floyd is the best p4p ducker in history like my man paclander says......
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 11:01:06 PM
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knowitall:
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I would have agreed with the author. Only, he went to the other extreme. He made it sound like humans are devolving. I would agree that floyd's record of 3-0 welterweight vs welterweights is simply isn't enough data to correctly predict how he would fare against these greats. And not because the boxers in yesteryears are superhumans and the best this generation can offer cannot touch those boxers even if they were blindfolded.
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 11:01:06 PM
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johny rego:
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This author completely does not know boxing. fake!
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 11:02:35 PM
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Paclander:
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I've seen the fight of floyd with Judah if judah has the fast hand and throws a lot of punches floyd went down early actually he was knock down but the referee didn't call it , floyd is not great boxer only americans patronizing him because his the only one left american standing in boxing the truth is he lost to Dela Hoya and Castillo HE IS THE GREATEST DUCKER OF ALL TIME A "COWARD"
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 11:02:55 PM
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Nandi:
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Talk is cheap, opinions fly here and there. But when the dust settles, Manny Pacquiao will stay on top.
Have a nice day!
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 11:06:28 PM
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mortcola:
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The author completely does know boxing. True!
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 11:14:49 PM
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ali @ MisterLee:
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I have to say Pac is a beast no doubt but SRR would KO PAC No bulls*it
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 11:17:24 PM
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doubletangoromeo:
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@least your hero....THE MORALLY REPREHENSIBLE FLOYD MAYWEATHER JR. HAS STEPPED UP TO THE PLATE, ONE LESS MOUNTAIN TO HURDLE FRANKIE BABY....but may 1 is a long ways off...and as much as i hate to say this MANY THINGS CAN HAPPEN BETWEEN NOW AND MAY 1, 2010.
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 11:20:41 PM
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mortcola:
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The evolution you find in baseball, football, and basketball doesn't apply to boxing. The past boxers fought constantly. They were not protecting their business deals, not jockeying for opportunities at this or that ranking. They had hundreds of amateur fights, two or three times as many pro fights. They fought, period. Their may be new advanced training and nutrition for guys with big budgets. But our ranked pros today are just much less experienced pugilists - amateurs in the art of fighting compared to the old-times. I see Joe Louis, and I see a very physically beatable, slow-footed fighter - but one with an intelligence in maneuvering and setting up punches that I don't see in any modern heavies. Robinson wasn't physically Leonard's superior, but he had a completeness, an artistry that takes Leonard's one better. Benitez - pretty recent in the big picture view - had Mayweather's anticipation, reflexes, etc, but fought so much more by an earlier age. in the old days, prospects fought and fought, club fights, smokers, anything - until Don King made it all about the huge cable contracts and fighters waited for the big money instead of collecting their 100 bucks to stay busy. We do exaggerate based on nostalgia - but there was a different culture, a different way of becoming a professional.
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 11:24:17 PM
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Pranzer:
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Lotierzo is just expessing a personal opinion with a lot of bias and high opinion of his boxing knowledge. At the end of the day most fans on the know will dismiss this as a useless exercise trying to compare fighters of different generations. One can only opine but does not know for sure what's gonna happen. There are simply too many variables. So don't get carried away by his far-out temerity to declare things as gospel truth.
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 11:33:28 PM
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wasteoftime:
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knives is right. Waste of time.
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 11:38:28 PM
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ali @ mortcola:
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I agree with u 100%
Wednesday Feb 3, 2010 11:51:28 PM
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ali @ mortcola:
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Man im empress with your boxing I.Q I don't know if u have boxed before but if you had so talent I think u would have giving Mayweather a run for his money.
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 12:12:13 AM
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Raisin:
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I give Mayweather a good to great chance of beating any of the all time greats. What I know is Mayweather is not only talented but he is clean living and dedicated to the sport. His defense is superb, he has a great chin and his boxing IQ is second to none. His offense is tremendous. He jabs to the body and head. He has power in both hands and throws a variety of punches. Anyone that things he would get blown away in any fight is not objective due to the fact that we have never seen Floyd get blown away ever.
It is easy to say fighters of yesteryear are better than the ones today because history is viewed through Rosy Lens. No boxer is perfect, none today and none from yesteryear but Floyd is an all time great. Just ask the true greats, they will tell you.
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 12:20:57 AM
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Isaiah@Hakim:
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You know your stuff man. Nice bible verse thrown in. Mayweather fans love the lies, but the truth blinds them from seeing how he stacks up against the best ever, and it don't spell good for him.
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 12:30:37 AM
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Frank Z@ mortcola:
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THANK YOU. i try to tell everyone that but some people on here are just putting their hands over their ears in denial. the past greats are better simply cause they got exposed more. you coudln't get away with an obvious flaw back then like a lot of fighters do today, and the scene was bigger, and there was a richer pool of knowledge and talent. all other major sports have gone the other way as time went on.
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 12:44:09 AM
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Frank Z @mortcola:
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although like i said before, don't underestimate the conditioning of the older guys. they didn't have all the influx of bs weight training routines that work in football and track but not in boxing. boxing is too motion specific for most of that stuff to work. the old timers focused more on just being as fast as they can and developing strength from hitting the bag, calisthenics, and from sparring. they got their leg strength from running but not too much. remember sugar ray robinson clearly outboxed a man 15 lbs heavier than him at weigh in for 13 rounds before the 100+ degree heat did him in, before that having done the ref in.
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 12:48:30 AM
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Frank Z:
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also don't forget those guys weighed in the same day as the fgiht, so they had to maintain a lower walk aroudn weight, better shape on a normal basis. ricky hatton getting away with blowing up to cruiserweight between fights? forget it.
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 12:49:29 AM
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mortcola@FRANK Z & Ali:
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Thanks for the thumbs up. Yeah, I boxed in college and amateur, had 33 fights, won most. Upstate NY, mid-80s. But too much of a schoolboy. I really just WATCHED and LEARNED, and had a trainer who was kind of a Cus D'Amato type (knew Cus, trained with Patterson). Taught me about how to think about boxing. But mostly I just love it, and still do at 45. One thing about the old days - once you got a little famous, you had so many fights you KNEW who you were, and what you could take.
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 12:49:33 AM
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truthexcellence:
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only clowns here defending pacquio are either asians or flips... anyway the writer is underestimating floyd. i would think he would be 10-0 against the greats. floyd is one of the most phenomenal fighter i seen in a long time. 40-0 baby, shane is next.
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 12:54:39 AM
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El Maromero:
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Lotierzo says that Castillo beat Floyd, ok Floyd did have a bad night but is he the first fghter to ever have a bad fight?Cause the rematch was not comparable to the first one at all
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 01:22:32 AM
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Ha Kim not lil' Kim:
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Ha' Kim, you little hussy, quit cheating on your man. I see that you are hookin Rev. Ugly Ike! You better watch it. He is always putting the G alphabet on Lil' Floyd Mayweather's M. This peacher goes insane everything that he thinks or write about lil' Floyd. He likes lil' Floyd's sweat, not lil' Kim. You go Ha' Kim! Girls just wanna have fun fo' sure!
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 02:12:37 AM
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Isaiah:
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Who honestly thinks Mayweather would last the distance, much less win against Sugar Ray Robinson who was the greatest ever? Harry Greb had one loss and that was against heavyweight great Gene Tunney. Mayweather don't want none of that either. Roberto Duran would have made Mayweather scream "No Mas" in a girlish squeel. Charlie Burley, Carmen Basillo, Gene Fullmer, Randy Turpin, Henry Armstrong and even Paul Pender would have embarresed this joke. Even Willie Pep who hits even lighter then Floyd since he was just a featherweight would have outboxed Floyd all night since he loves fighting smaller men. I bet if Floyd by some crazy space/time paradox, saw all these guys in the same area, it would sound like someone opened up a hen coop. Buck, buck, Floyd.
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 02:18:07 AM
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Isaiah@Ha Kim A.K.A. Smiley C:
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Ain't you got something better to do? Aren't you missing Desperate Housewives or something?
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 02:21:40 AM
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Isaiah:
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First of all, I never said anything about Ken Norton good or bad as far as I remeber, but he was a great fighter. You sure you're not off there in the head a little bit? Second of all, I know we have some hypersensitive people in here about certain issues so I stop replacing Mayweather with a G weeks ago buddy. What are you smoking? Third of all, I've apologized if I thought a comment was out of hand so get off me. When I left for about a month months ago, there was some clone using my name with a lower case i and back then, I called that sucker on his fakery as only wimps need to steal people's name's in here, IF YOU CATCH MY DRIFT POSER. Finally, who really knows GOD? I don't dare claim to. I just say what has been written. Jesus bless you who oppose me. I forgive you for your ignorance and arrogance.
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 02:48:12 AM
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The Zero Plate:
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..for the more sophisticated boxing palate ey Mr. Lotierzo? Next thing we know you'll be calling the blood of boxers wine. I disagree with you on a number of points & in your know it all tone. And as it all hypotheses educated though SOME of it may be, youre just rushing through it, like some one without the time to digest a big lunch but decided to eat it on the run anyway. Anyway theres no way i'll let you pump your gospel down my throat...Both Mayweather & Pacquiao can rise to the occassion, Pacquiao more than Mayweather when the heat is on, heck even Mosely who you never mentioned, in his prime would have knocked out Gavilan & yes i'll say it, the Pacquiao of right now could draw at the very least with Sugar Ray Robinson. Until genetic engineering can prove you 100 percent there's no way i'll just nod & play along with you say. I may be guessing Frank but frankly, no matter what authority you play on,- so are you.
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 02:58:54 AM
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Lights Out:
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Good article F-Lo. Its true, the general population of fighters of today would not be able to hang with the Joe Shmo's of the Ray Robinson era. This has much to do with the multiple paper titles, the corrupt sanctioning bodies, the cherry-picking of promoters and champions, training methods and slower-paced schedules of fighters. You don't see too many champions fighting 8-15x a year like they did in the past. You also dont see many +100 fight boxers either. As for Floyd taking on the best welters, I absolutely agree, but theres 2 things from F-Lo that he should consider. One, you're overemphasizing the first Castillo fight. Sure, it was a tough fight for Floyd, but he completely outclassed him the 2nd fight around, plus he injured his hands the first fight. Also, you must recognize that Floyd is a natural junior lightweight. I actually think he mightve been the best 130-lber in history, but then again, this was a division that was originally a part of the lightweight division pre-1950s. Floyd would have to be compared to the Top Lightweights then, where he'll have to tangle with Duran, Armstrong, Benny Leonard, Whitaker and Canzoneri, all of whom would give him tough fights. I dont know if Floyd can beat any or all of them, but he is a fighter than can truly hang with the best of any era, especially at his natural weight class
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 04:34:31 AM
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El Maromero:
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For Mayweather to be mentioned with the top welterweights of all time by people that consider him a cherrypicker is not so bad.
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 05:04:07 AM
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Blackwater:
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I almost totally agree with you F-Lo, except for the last part. I think Manny Pacquiao will fare better than FM against the other all-time greats (of course you and me are just on wistful thinking here since we will really never know LOL!).
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 07:05:58 AM
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taeintsik:
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Floyd wont even fight any of those 10. Oh, maybe now that most of them are well 6 feet under...Bak bak bak!!!
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 08:01:48 AM
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Radar:
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I called Lotierzo's BS on the PPV issue in the last hate article he wrote about Mayweather two days ago. Yeah, one per day. Must have time on his hands and a supreme obsession. The record is clear that Floyd has outsold Pac 2-1 against their common opponents. That math is easy - well, maybe not for the guy who gets 3 out of 4. Something has changed radically in that regard in the barely four months since Mayweather shut out JMM? Hell no. I'll wager right here that Mosley-Mayweather outsells Clottey-Pac at least 3-1. There isn't a sniff of evidence that Pac can outsell Floyd. Cotto-Pac outsold JMM-PBF? So what? How many PPV's would a Cotto-Mayweather bout have done at that time? One last issue - Mayweather's career cannot fairly be judged solely on 147. It cannot fairly be judged until it is over. Fact is, he is now fighting a HoFamer in Mosley. What he does beyond that to enhance his resume is anyone's guess, but he's certainly starting at the right place. A subsequent fight and win over Pac at 147 and his "greatness" (beyond the obvious extreme, historical talent) will start to take on an interesting shine.
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 09:38:48 AM
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Roger B.:
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It was funny that you put the Floyd vs Oscar still photo there, Dela Hoya got robbed badly on that fight.
It was a good analysis right there, that means all of them have 80% chance of getting KOed iif they only have the chance to meet Pacquiao in the ring.
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 10:38:00 AM
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#1 PacFan "Pacquiao by TKO in the 8th":
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@Frank Z, SRL(slick boxer) took 14 rounds to put away Hearns but it only took Hagler(southpaw,aggressive), and Barkley(aggressive) three rounds to KO Hearns. What does that tell you? Hearns loves to trade no matter how much his corner tells him not to. SRL showed a lot of respect to Hearns because he had power in both hands. I'll tell you a couple of things Manny has that SRL don't have. Manny's ability to put himself in a position where he can sneak punches where not many see them is a gift. You try to fight him on the inside he will sneak in an effective punch(Marquez 2 knockdown, Cotto 4th round knockdown) that will hurt you because you don't see them. Manny possessed more power compared to SRL but he would outskill him in many categories. Kid Gavilan was in a life and death fight with SRR but before him he was outboxed by lesser opponents. We can go all day with this but we will never surely know how those past greats would do with todays. It's just impossible to do unless someone invents a time machine that can make guys of today go back and fight those guys.
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 11:01:05 AM
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The REAL Hakim:
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Isaiah - thanks for the words man and you're on the money about MOST of these Mayweather fans. I must be out of touch though, because I don;t understand the Ha Kim or Lil Kim bit at all. It's all good though! I like throwing humor around as much as the next guy, and I'm a believe in if you can't take the heat, get yo' ass out the kitchen! Like I've been saying all along, Radam G said that Floyd Mayweather is the best fighter P4P ever! I was ROCKED by this statement of lunacy like a Sam Peter hook to Jeremy Williams' dome! And I was thankful that megasuperscribe F-Lo came out and SHUT THAT DOWN and said that not only was Floyd NOT the best P4P ever -which we all knew but the super-unenlightened- but he wasn;t even a top-10 welterweight of all time! Now I like readin' Radam's scribble, as it makes me giggle, and it's got some sizzle and bizzle and wizzle! Oh yeah! Whatever the heck that all means! But ya got to hand it to leaders like Radam G, Isaiah, and myself, we've got plenty of obsessed admirers out there! And if ya don't believe me, just look at all the "Ha Kim" entries above, under different articles, and soon to follow! Touché! And about those entries, if any of you understand them, please translate! And wouldn't ya like to see a refutation of the facts or, because they can't refute that which is right, at least a defense of their position? Nope, just a bunch of gobblygook that comes from their master's panting puppy dogs that have no opinions of their own! But like Proverbs 17:10 states, "Rebuke is more effective for a wise man than a hundred blows on a fool."
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 11:13:26 AM
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Frank Z@ #1Pacfan:
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yeah but from what i understnad both barkley and hagler were big strong middleweights who were also power punchers, and each had significant arm length advantages on manny. it's true manny can get knockdowns on folks cause of his odd punching style, and he's a powerful puncher for 140-147 weight classes, but like i said he's had trouble getting past the jab, see cotto, even de la hoya had himi in small(very small) spurts when they fought when he used his jab. manny's movement in and out is very athletic and fluid, but it's not sophisticated enough to get in the reach of hearns very quick and hard jab imo. as for manny having more power and skill than ray leonard? no way. leonard was a much more accurate puncher and a better set-up man than manny can dream to be right now. manny's a good power puncher but he's not a crippling puncher with either hand like SRL was. the way he would be a knock-em-dead puncher is if he throws a hail mary style punch with his big left, and the guy's absolutely not ready for it, but that's not consistent enough to put him with leonard's power.
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 12:01:19 PM
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Frank Z@ Misterlee:
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off topic, how's training coming?
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 12:04:18 PM
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brownsugar@#1Pacfan:
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as much as I respect your comments and opinions #1,.. I have to say that I don't see it that way,... for example Ali went the distance with Frazier (almost),.. but destroyed Foreman in 8,.. when Foreman was crushing all the champs and former champs.... Leonard had a 74 inch reach and came in to boxing at 147and went up to light heavy,.. much larger naturally than Pac and in my opinion a much faster smarter and better conditioned athlete,.. I don't think Pac would have lasted 4 rounds with him because Leonard excells at every aspect of the game... agression,. execution,... defense,... speed,... stamina and most importantly reach,.. and incredible 74 inches compared to 67 for Pac coupled with dazzling speed and some of the best reaction time that you'll find in any fighter... I think a more interesting matchup would be Pac against Aaron Pryor... both guys are in tremendous shape,.. punch well,.. take a good punch and refuse to be dominated...
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 12:13:06 PM
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Palmieri:
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You sound like a Floy hater...
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 12:17:37 PM
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MisterLee@BS:
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What are you talking about "Ali went the distance with Frazier (almost)?! Check your facts buddy. Ali lost a decision in the first, won a decision in the second, and won by a TKO in the 3rd. You need to clear the fog off of your Floyd Mayweather glasses! Holler!
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 12:21:20 PM
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#1 PacFan "Pacquiao by TKO in the 8th":
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@Frank Z, yes he has trouble getting past the jab but Hearns don't have that type of jab like Cotto's who's got that STIFF jab that Manny walk through. I'm not saying that Manny walks Hearns down I still he has a puncher's chance basically. Like when people threw Williams in there for Manny, I said no way! Williams has almost every advantage there is but anything goes in boxing one punch can change the tide. I totally disagree with you on the power category comparing the two(Pac and Leonard). Leonard was a fluid puncher himself but it didn't look like it because of his great movements. Most of his knockouts came later in the fight. Manny finished his opponents in the early to mid-rounds and had frequently knockdown his opponents leading up to the stoppage. He had knockdowned his opponents more that his fight totals that says a lot regarding power. He was a devastating puncher in the lower weights while not having the right nutrionist in his corner. Now that he is getting the right diet in him he is more comfortable while training excessively.
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 12:31:04 PM
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#1 PacFan "Pacquiao by TKO in the 8th":
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@brownsugar, I said that SRL outboxes Manny easily in the first post.
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 12:32:55 PM
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brownsugar:
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I think the ghosts of the past were tougher to the extent that they didn't have a day to rehydrate before a fight like fighters do today,.. ..they had harsher living and working conditions and less oversight where health and safety are concerned,..I'll also agree that Olympic scoring has produced too many pitty-pat,.. I'll- touch-you-more-than-you-can-touch-me style of boxers,... but that's were the comparison ends.. Each generation of fighters build apon the previous generation of boxing knowlege... in ancient times fighters fought 30 or 40 rounds,.. but they were slow walking in circles,.flat footed and maybe throwing a dozen or less punches around,. today fights are shorter and more intense... guys can't have 200 pro fights training and fighting the way they do today... for instance,.. could anybody win a heavyweight championship bending over his waist nealy touching the canvas with his gloves,... throwing maybe 20 hayemakers a round like Marciano did 60 years ago?? no way,.... as great as Marciano was,.. boxing has evolved way past his caveman style of attack (although the Pool of boxers competing in the heavyweight class today has shrunken considerably with big guys making safer and more secure money in every thing from the WWF to pro basketball) .....Now since the Authors previous article about (OVER REACTION to Floyd) has imploded apon itself,.. Flo Lo has to resort to pulling legends out the grave in order to remind us how sorry a fighter he thinks Mayweather is supposed to be,.. well I went to youtube and watched some old Mickey Walker vids,.. the guy was slow of foot and frequently threw himself off balance whenever he threw the left hook,.. his footwork was so abysmal that he was easily juked out of position with minimum lateral movement... I'm telling ya the truth,.. with a straight face,... that the Late Great Arturo Gatti had better technical skillz than Mickey... the often overlooked lighter weight divisions have continued to excell , advance , and evolve even though the heavyweights have become stagnant due to the low volume influx of big guys who want to box for a living,.. I challenge anybody to go watch any of those 40's 50's fighters on youtube and then think for yourself,..come to your own conclusions,....personally I believe the gap in speed, footwork and execution between the old times and modern boxers is so wide most of those vids will invariably put you to sleep(your mind will literally be crying for an update)...most are not even interesting to look at,....even Hamerin Hank who was probably a thrill to watch back in his day,.. is hard on the eyes,.. with Hank flailling away wildly sometimes with his head down hoping something would land(it was good enough for his time, but would never work in 2010)... I Do NOT wish TO take away anything from the old legends,.. I'm just saying,.. the newer generations have taken their knowlege from them and improved apon it,..ONLY the politics have gotten worse,... there are still far too many champions in each division which delutes the value and integrity of the word CHAMPION and makes it easy for undefeated guys from third world nations to rise all the way to the top without having fought anyone,.. but the lower weight divisions are still producing phenoms...every day
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 01:04:43 PM
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brownsugar@#1Pacfan:
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thanks for the correction #1,..
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 01:07:45 PM
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Frank Z@ #1Pacfan:
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yeah but you then you can say any medium level boxer with power has a puncher's chance vs. hearns, put it this way wouldn't put my lunch money on it. also srl didn't get as many knockdowns cause he fought guys like wilfred benitez, roberto duran, hearns and hagler. most of the folks who weren't A-listers of the past 30 years he fought he blew them away. you cannot look past the fact that leonard's much better at seting up shots than pacquiao. how many of those guys pacquiao fought were truly A-listers in the past 30 years in their prime? maybe barrera the first time... maybe? pacquiao was one of the most powerful punchers in recent memory at featherweight and 130, but not really past that. i havn't forgotten about the hatton punch, but pacquiao had a good amount of help from hatton diving forward like he was trying to football tackle pac.
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 01:09:42 PM
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brownsugar@at MisterLee:
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I was referrin to the thrilla where Frazier retired after the 14th... sorry if I didn't make myself clear,...and that post had nothing to do with Mayweather.
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 01:10:34 PM
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#1 PacFan "Pacquiao by TKO in the 8th":
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@brownsugar, great post man. I think we can't overlook todays fighters just because of yesteryears being so grueling. I mentioned that same example with Frank Z that our fighters today couldn't endure similar situations because of the longer training camps. I see it as like if they fought that much we can somewhat judge it as a sparring session for our fighters today(many greats fought guys who weren't top level at the time). Many of the greats of the past didn't rely on movements like the black fighters did. For example SRR and Louis had terrific offenses but also had great footwork. I think Mayweather would fair would some of the past greats pot shotting his way to break them down. Manny's a more thinking fighter who knows how to deal with his opponents. @Frank Z, well not just any medium level fight, you can say Pacquiao, Mayweather, Shane, and Cotto who possess good enough skills and power to be effective against Hearns. Let's not get into the whole Pacquiao's past opponents again. That's for the younger fans to judge for now.
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 01:29:58 PM
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MisterLee @ B-sug:
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No prob B-sug! I used to have you in my top-5 P4P here but you just too confused on Mayweather and the PED issue so I dropped you to between 12 and 15. But we'll get past it and you'll have the chance to get on good ground with me again if you work at it. You still my man tho! Holler!
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 01:45:17 PM
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Frank Z@ brownsugar and #1pacfan:
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i have seen a good deal of the old clips, and while i'm not of the mentality that the old timers could do no wrong, i do think overall that their skillset far surpasses those of today's. even if there's guys today who measure up to them, they can be navigated away from by promoters of a hot prospect to an alphabet title, which wans't an option back then. black fighters were often avoided back then but they just ended up fighting each other to elevate each others' game. the little head and shoulder fakes the older fighters did was more finesse than most dudes today. even mayweather doesn't do the right feints to draw certain punches out of his opponents, he just leaves his head open and counters with that one move where he rocks back and shoots in a right hand. most of the old films i see the guys hav emuch better balance and minimize exertion in movement, had a more active jab to set up combinations, andn mixed up combinations more. the main thing i saw from guys like sweet pea and floyd that those old timers dind't do was pivoting and twisting of the upperbody to avoid shots. hammerin hank if you really watch him was really good at pulling and pushing his opponents arms, elbows, and shoulders to move them into the punches he wanted, and he used a good jab to get in on gu8ys who were almost always taller than him. he was able to roll with shots on the inside even though with his eyes on the floor he proably didn't[ always see the shots coming, he seemed to have a great feel for punches. i'll have to check out walker though. also, guys didn't endure 2 month training camps back then cause they were always fighting, so they were always coming off of gym shape. that's similar to what timothy bradley does today, he doesn't have a training camp more than 6 weeks but he takes good enough care of himself normally and generally fights pretty often, he's only been a pro for 5 and a half years and he's already got 26 fights. how many top guys from the 40s and 50s made the most basic fundamental mistakes like shooting your chin up when you punch like hatton, or squaring straight up like cotto, or simply deciding to walk through punches like margarito?
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 02:05:13 PM
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EM@MLee:
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Why are you so fired up these days??
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 02:12:56 PM
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Gold Standard:
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To the person who said that Arturo Gatti was a more sophisticated attacker than Mickey Walker you are suffering from an ID10T problem. You obviouosly know absolutely nothing about Mickey Walker and should not be commenting on boxing.
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 02:15:41 PM
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#1 PacFan "Pacquiao by TKO in the 8th":
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@Frank Z, not all black fighters were avoided, black fighters even avoided white fighters(I'll have to trust Radam on this one). I think most fighters in the past relied mostly on their strength rather than their technique. They were there to basically fight and who's punches were the most effective. No one can question their heart but I have to think twice about skills. Which is why SRR and Ali are considered the best of all time because they had great fundamentals in mixing up offense with defense. I would put SRL in the mix also because he was also a good offensive fighter. What's missing in Mayweather's game is his offense(not a risk taker) and what's missing in Pacquiao's game is defense(gets hit often but makes up for it with offense).
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 02:18:44 PM
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#1 PacFan "Pacquiao by TKO in the 8th":
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@EM, I think the showdown between him and Don has a lot to do with it. He still has the ill effects to that one though I saw it as a draw. They're like R.Marquez-Vasquez. That has to go down as one of the classic showdowns in TSS history.
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 03:14:50 PM
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Yuvie:
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Man, this is one topic of discussion I hate and I also read that same article in the ring magazine. I get touchy when people start comparing today's boxers with those of yesterday. Why? Because they are of a completely different elk in my eyes. I can appreciate Mayweather's skills but saying that he'd beat Armstrong...nah, after that I failed to take the article (in The Ring) seriously. They're from a completely different era. I don't think you can put any modern day guys up there with those from the past. The modern day boxers aren't as tough, only fight a maximum of 3 fights per year (sometimes against poor opposition). People nowadays care more about an undefeated record than seeing a fighter fight every opponent there is out there. It's laughable that someone can retire for over a year, come back and win against a smaller opponent and instantly become a top 10 P4P fighter. It shows how poor boxing has become nowadays and how non-busy our fighters are. Plus these guys nowadays have 4 world titles to go for, plus more weight divisions. Guys like Oscar, Mayweather & Pacquiao wouldn't be doin the shi* they're doing back then. Personally, any of those 3 would get eaten up by the guys from the pre-1970's. No one has to fight anyone these days. Just look at how pathetic Pacquiao/Mayweather turned out. Boxing should be seperated by eras. The golden era & the modern era because they're both incomparable.
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 03:25:43 PM
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Yuvie:
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Man...the modern era really is pathetic when you think about it. Pac is no.1 and fought twice last year. Mayweather is no. 2 and coming off a year's retirement, only fought once last year against a blown up lightweight and still couldn't even make weight, WTF? Mosley is no. 3 and had just one fight last year. Hopkins is no. 4, more of the same......
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 03:34:36 PM
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Radam G @ B-Sug:
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That was a masterpiece you weaved together and skillfully spitting out -- RIGHT IN THE EYE! Now how can a nostalgic knucklehead struck on optical illusions of myths and tales, not follow your advice and give you props for unblinding their ___arses? Blindness by reading and hearing keep so many from looking and seeing. They will look at Youtube and continue to get on their alibies. Holla!
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 03:44:06 PM
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Frank Z@ #1Pacfan:
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some of them did rely on just being strong, but is that different than any other era? if you look at most of the fights from kid chocolate to SRR to even dudes like Tony Zale, a lot of them relied on setting up punches and moving their heads and shoulders very well. even SRR who had some of the bst all around skiills in history had close calls even in his prime welter years. bernard docusen? kid gavilan? sammy angot?
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 03:46:14 PM
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#1 PacFan "Pacquiao by TKO in the 8th":
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@Yuvie, with all due respect Manny rightfully earned his spot over the years. We can't look at the amount of fights they've had and just say "Hey you haven't fought enough, get back in line." SRL(my ATF) only fought 40 fights within a 20 year career but he is still considered one of the greatest. I agree with you regarding Mayweather retiring and getting back on the top 10. Though he beat JMM who was #2 at the time, I still wouldn't elevate May to replace that spot. He should've fought some stiff contenders at 147 to regain the top 10. For example, If Mayweather never retired, Manny would have to defeat him in order to take the spot. If Calderon for example started from straw all the way to Lightweight and became #1, you can't make Calderon go to 147 just to defeat him. You would have to match his numerous weight classes he fought in.
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 03:48:34 PM
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#1 PacFan "Pacquiao by TKO in the 8th":
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@Frank Z, not a lot of todays boxers rely on their strengths anymore which is why boxing to young kids see it as a boring sport compared to MMA. Yes they did rely on setting up punches moving their heads and shoulders but where is the footwork to position them from other punches? This is where I agree with B-Sug when he says most of them were flat footed. This is why SSR was so dominant more than half the time he was facing dangerous offensive fighters. He exposed them because they were motionless. They would catch Robinson at times but he rolled with the punches while sporting a good chin. Technique beats aggression all day if you don't know how to adjust.
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 04:01:40 PM
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Matthew:
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No arguments here. I have never seen Mickey Walker fight, but if he is as good as advertised here, I can't see Mayweather beating him. Maybe Floyd busts up Basilio, but there's no way in hell he can beat any of the other greats on this list. Floyd beats Armstrong? No chance. Armstrong is considered by many the 2nd greatest fighter ever, and Mayweather could never even shine his shoes. I really think Felix Trinidad should have been mentioned in the conversation, considering the resume he built at 147. The author of the original article really needs to gain some perspective. I suggest Gavin Evans sit down for a half hour with Bert Sugar over cocktails at Irish Pub in Atlantic City. It was the best boxing education I ever got.
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 04:04:40 PM
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Radam G @ Frank Z:
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Sour -- I mean Sugar -- Ray Robinson ducked Uncle Celly, the Pinoy who stopped Hank Armstrong from winning the middleweight title. Also it was Uncle Celly who introduced the Bolo punch to the Queenberrys rule of pugilism. The bolo punch is straight out of Pinoy boxing. Kid Gavalan is a perpetrator of a fraud. But to his credit, he always said in person that he learned a lot of his boxing from Pinoys. Holla!
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 04:13:52 PM
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Radam G @ Frank Z:
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Sour -- I mean Sugar -- Ray Robinson ducked Uncle Celly, the Pinoy who stopped Hank Armstrong from winning the middleweight title. Also it was Uncle Celly who introduced the Bolo punch to the Queenberrys rule of pugilism. The bolo punch is straight out of Pinoy boxing. Kid Gavalan is a perpetrator of a fraud. But to his credit, he always said in person that he learned a lot of his boxing from Pinoys. Holla!
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 04:18:56 PM
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Frank Z@ Radam:
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eh the bolo punch may have been first really known to be used by Pinoys, but honestly man who knows, it's such a natural motion if you can get into a groove in the ring, who knows where those kind of moves FIRST get started.
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 05:37:22 PM
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Frank Z@ #1Pacfan:
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nah bro i can't agree with you. i think what's happening is that the bad film quality of that time's obscuring your perspective. i'm not saying that to talk trash dont' misunderstand, that happens to a lot of people. even if you watch someone like jake lamotta, he did have footwork. he didn't skip around the ring like sweet pea or willie pep, but he subtly cuts the ring off on robinson and forces him into rough and tumble exchanges. most of the top old school folks i saw were good at shifting their weight and recovering from missed punches. watch joe louis carefully and watch how he keep his opponents from turning him but stepping to the spot they were moving to, he does it very slow and economical so as to conserve energy, and how many heavyweights in history threw the clean varied punches that that guy did? his handspeed dare i say matched ali's in certain clips, just didn't look it cause ali was much flashier. robinson didn't just expose guy by circling the ring, cuase he wasn't always able to circle against some of those guys, he was just better all around, and better offensively cause of his speed, varied attack, and power. like i said, the only thing i don't see the old guys doing that guys today do is the hard pivot.
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 05:43:39 PM
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Mountain God:
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So it's safe to say Floyd is not the best ever, not even close. they made em' tough as nails back then no Xylocaine to numb anything or PEDs
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 06:03:10 PM
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brownsugar@at MisterLee:
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thanks for the comments MisterLee,.. maybe if I'm lucky I can get in good with you again...
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 09:56:05 PM
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MisterLee @ B-sug:
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Yo yo mr. brownsugar! its all good and you still ma' boy but your just pissing me off. there's no evidence, and your making accusations of Pacquiao of NOT what he did, but what he didn't do, using that faulty logic only means EVERY professional fighter is guilty. Prove me wrong with your illogical argument or keep quiet! donputo69, krumpedout, deepwater, teacher, and ha 'kim are all on my resume and I don't want to add you but your leaving me no choice. Holler!
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 10:19:08 PM
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brownsugar@#1Pacfan&FrankZ&RadamG:
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thanks for the comments,.. a lot of good points made, those old guys were very studious but slow,..I can see the technique,.. but the pace and rythym of those fights were so predictable and repetitive that it hurts to even watch them...... those old dudes were the pioneers,.. but not the pinnacle of boxing perfection,.. I thank them for their contribution,.. but have to stop short of worshipping them as untouchable ICONs of boxing virtuosity... for example even Louis with his pinpoint combo's and excellent short punch combinations would have been decisioned by a lot of modern boxers because he sort of just inched his way around the ring,.. a fighter on his toes would have a field day with him,.. but during his time in the ring,.. Louis never had to worry about mobile boxers,.. you saw what a moble light heavyweight like Billy Conn neary did to him(before he was caught)... Billy Conn was actually ahead of his time...
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 10:28:30 PM
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brownsugar@MisterLee:
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MisterLee,.. I think you're getting beside yourself,.. and I'm not looking to win a popularity contest,.. I'm just expressing myself,.. if you disagree it's fine with me,... we can discuss it,.. but I won't be censored by anybody..
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 10:34:56 PM
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MisterLee @ B-sug:
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LOL! Getting beside myself! KMFA. I dont think so, its called asking tough questions of the ignorant. What about scareweather and xylocaine? Its banned in 49 states yet you defend his use of it. You just pissing me off, thats all there is to it! You give scareweather a free pass yet you hate on Pacquiao based on NO evidence and flimsy accusations! I told you that that faulty logic only drops you on every reader's p4p list here that matters, and right now you lucky to be in the top 20 of me or anyone who matters!
Thursday Feb 4, 2010 11:24:59 PM
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Caveman Lee:
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Dear EM and the TSSU gang, That was NOT me. B/c i put my email in those series of emails with the don, the clone is actually using my real email to enter in the posts. Dear B-sug, after ALL the posts after my thanking Frank Z for the benitez fight were NOT me. EM, it is not my intention to start trouble on the site, and the last few comments were def. not me. I have disagreements over floyd and PED's, but I wouldn't ever straight up attack brownsugar for no reason. I get fired up over Andre Ward, and sure I do a few battles here and there, but yeah, reread the posts. I usually don't do any chest thumping for no reason, I usually have a good reason to do anything and everything I do, if you read the Miister Lee Clone, the fake just moves in straight lines with no boxing knowledge behind, with no wit, with no rhyme and reason, and the "popularity contest" i can really care less about. I'm just a fan of the sport and a student, any mention of it is usually to put a NOBODY in their place, I never forgot that I learned 90% of what I know from this site, and i would never dishonor anybody or the site for no reason, so yeah, if anything, the clone should be blamed, and i will start entering a different email address on my posting so i can't be misrespresented by the cloner (leroy peters, kounted out, eastar). Making myself transparent has taken a toll b/c I never ever completely misuse my identity just to do some chest thumping. I apologize to B-sug and the community if they thought it was really me. The goo goo dolls can't just become the jonas brothers over night, and nas doesn't just start singing "skeet skeet" songs over night, the complete waste of what the "misterlee" posted up there shows a troll and their eternal loss of identity which they compensate by tagging on other identities b/c of the emptiness of self and their life and those around them. A person who has a full life, friends, and a future and a true sense of self does not need to look elsewhere to excel. My heart will always be in boxing and TSSU and not starting trouble, and I usually don't use what little knowledge and name I do have to put it others shamelessly, b/c in the end I learn from all of you. I apologize to all of you if you thought it was me and that I offended the community. That's what trolls do, not myself Yours truly, Ching Lee.
Friday Feb 5, 2010 01:01:41 AM
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Caveman grunts and does flea dance:
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Dear Frank Z, sup sup! Training is good. Getting into better shape, haven't completely worked out the ground game yet, but I'm adapting a style in which i adopt a high horse stance as my boxing stance, and i jab from it, i use my heel and front stance shift for my cross instead of a dip and ball of the foot pivot, my straight right hand in southpaw stance is backed up by a horse stance, i'm going to start incorporating southern wushu techniques into my reportoire, i used to have a slip sack which helped with my head movement, need to get another one, im working on improving my right hook to to the body, or left hook if i'min orthodox stance, working on my counter right hook and counter left hook, trying to do more standing meditation b/c that helps with my body connection, might incorporate some tan tui kicks and other low northern kicks b/c mma only has thigh kicks, trying to get a good side kick b/c every good martial artist should have a good side kick and also a spin side kick to the body, working on my southern sweep kick, b/c cung le and machida have proved that a good sweep kick is still effective in mma, yeah, and i'd really love to start competing in mma in 2011. besides all that I want to be on the US wushu team again in 2011 and 2013, i want to learn some more ground game, and I've picked up a little boxing from watching, how to circle and move the head, countering, how to hook off a jab, peek a boo defense, foot work etc.. so yeah always learning, but yeah win or lose i'm always the real thing in real life or cyber space, i put it all out there. TC. do you still do wushu? Pc!
Friday Feb 5, 2010 01:16:20 AM
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Real Talk:
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Why do they have the comment section so bunched in to make it seem like it's more hits than usual ? SMH.... Anyway how would you know unless youput them in the ring? You don't , you can only assume, and you know what they say about those. Opinions are like @$$holes, everybodies got one. Blow it out your @$$ LOL. Who's to say Haerns wouldn't catch PAC and Pac get KTFO ala one shot Roberto Duran? Pac beat Sugar Ray Leonard??? I'd put my money on Ray...the Ray that looked like Dragon ball Z in the first Hearns fight, the Ray that fought Hagler. You see the speed, power, ring generalship, boxing intelligence that Leonard had. I say both of those cats wouldn't killed Pac @ 147, not 144...147. Don't get it twisted, I don't think Floyd could've beat Ray either...maybe Hearns...but not the Sugar @ his peak. Dueces
Friday Feb 5, 2010 01:36:24 AM
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Real Talk:
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would've killed Pac
Friday Feb 5, 2010 01:37:42 AM
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brownsugar@Caveman Lee(the real MisterLee):
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thanks for clarifying Ching Lee,...I thought the fake MisterLee posts were somewhat out of character for the real MisterLee,.. so that explains it... no appology needed... your clone couldn't even recognize my sarcasm...he's probably some sad lonely child with access to his moms pc... peace...
Friday Feb 5, 2010 01:43:34 AM
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MIsterLee:
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Stay safe in the 24 inches of snow fo' sho! See ya Real Talk!
Friday Feb 5, 2010 01:44:08 AM
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MisterLee:
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So what you think of the floyd fight? I'm pulling mosley for a UD or late round KO or at least knockdown, floyd if he wins, a SD, and i'mreally hoping floyd doesn't stink it and actually outpoint shane easily and make us all scratch our heads like a dlh fight. it's a fact tht floyd can't physically hurt him, but i fear if it's a safety first boxing contest and floyd outshines mosley clearly, it'll be sad b/c i REALLY love mosley's style and fighting instinct. I hope for some back and forth and some drama, at the very least I got a lot faith in mosley. Holler!
Friday Feb 5, 2010 01:47:53 AM
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Mister Lee:
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My P4P reader list: 1.) #1 Pacsage 2.) Radam G 3.) Smiley C (fo' sure!) 4.) Mortcola 5.) Fe;riz 6.) The Saint 7.) Frank Z 8.) Isaiah 9.) El Maromero (soon to be La Maromera if Scareweather don't sign) 10.) Red. If your name aint showing up on this highly coveted and most important list, then step up yo game fo' sure! Holler!
Friday Feb 5, 2010 02:39:57 AM
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MisterLee:
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My P4P reader list: 1.) #1 Pacsage 2.) Radam G 3.) Smiley C (fo' sure!) 4.) Mortcola 5.) Fe;riz 6.) The Saint 7.) Frank Z 8.) Isaiah 9.) El Maromero (soon to be La Maromera if Scareweather don't sign) 10.) Red. If your name aint showing up on this highly coveted and most important list, then step up yo game fo' sure! Holler! WEDNESDAY FEB 3, 2010 12:53:50 PM
Friday Feb 5, 2010 02:44:17 AM
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Isaiah:
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Where is Saltlover?
Friday Feb 5, 2010 03:58:43 AM
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El Maromero:
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Mayweather signed already but you don't have to change your name to MissLee till they fight.I know how how theres a few fellas that still can't believe that these two are fighting
Friday Feb 5, 2010 04:31:03 AM
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MisterLee:
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Dude, what loser keeps reposting my crap out of context, the last 3 messages were not me technically, but were me writing about a week ago. I don't like reposting my messages so often. I put a subjective p4p list and move on. Eastar has really done something with himself, the most recent post up there even has the time and date (loser) b/c the guy didn't bother doing an effective cut and paste job. Wow, this sly guy is all over, they should just find his IP address and shut him down
Friday Feb 5, 2010 10:23:24 AM
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Caveman etching on wall...:
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In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.
Friday Feb 5, 2010 10:24:17 AM
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Frank Z@ #1Pacfan:
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lol i'm 23 dude, i ain't old yet am i?
Friday Feb 5, 2010 10:50:26 AM
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brownsugar@the real MisterLee:
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I got Floyd getting a UD in a tough fight...
Friday Feb 5, 2010 11:18:51 AM
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MisterLee:
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The bum keeps reposting me SH**T out of context. Glad to have an admirer, b/c the person doing it is a LOSER and no one reads his SH**T. Anyway, my new email address takes a while to go thru moderation, the bum has my email address and posting it with it, so .. tough fight! If there is back and forth, i'll get my money's worth fo' sho! So if you really think it's gonna have some drama, some back and forth, laying hurt vs. ring smarts and ring generalship, it'll be an exciting fight no matter who wins! I actually hope floyd loses, then we'll see the rematch all over again, and floyd can finally exhale about his GD perfect record b/c then he can say "i fought the best" instead of "I'm undefeated". Has any great welterweight in history ever gone undefeated? I'm gonna bet "no", b/c it's physically impossible to go thru: mosley, cotto, clottey, margarito, berto, pacquiao, williams. I don' care what fighter in what point of history, when you fight the best, and i say these fighters i named are the best of this particular, ur gonna lose, and NO fighter in history could go thru all these 5 or 6 guys and not lose ONCE, it' s just a fact, different styles, different strengths, it's a tough line up and everyone would have 1-2 losses on their record minimum from fighting these guys. Looking forward to the fight fo' sho!
Friday Feb 5, 2010 11:52:36 AM
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MisteRLee:
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The clone is enjoying my TSS tenure by having auto-approved messages fo' sho! Once the email is shut down the cloning will stop, and the IP address police will catch the person behind the screen and their extensive collection of porn. Holler!
Friday Feb 5, 2010 11:55:03 AM
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#1 PacFan "Pacquiao by TKO in the 8th":
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@Frank Z, I don't mean to say you're old but your knowledge is just far beyond youth. You said all the right things about Louis, Robinson, and Ali but I'm referring to guys like Kid, Duran, Hearns, Armstrong, Ross, etc who were limitless as far as boxing skills. Robinson either exposed guys by boxing the hell out of them or used his superior offense. Louis is last on that list because cutting the ring off is not considered technique. When you're trying to cut off the ring you usually get caught off balance depending on the fighter if so ellusive. As for Ali, he was lucky to face guys mostly on the attack so we really don't know how he would've have faired if on the attack all throughout the fight. @RealTalk, I understand what you're saying but you're not as accurate as you put yourself out to be when analysing a match.
Friday Feb 5, 2010 12:00:50 PM
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Frank Z@ #1Pacfan:
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haha just messing with you. robinson you can't forget about how powerful he was. who can forget about his left hook on the durable and strong gene fullmer? i've seen clips of him make a man drop to his knees with a right to the body. i dont' think you can put louis last on the list either though, cuase his punches were unbelieveably sound and his power came from using his body correctly. cutting off the ring shoudl be considered a technique otherwise many more boxers would do it. being able to do so effectively without losing balance is definitely a skiill.
Friday Feb 5, 2010 12:10:47 PM
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MisterLee:
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I'm gonna put myself out on a limb and say Pacquiao, of all the welterweight greats, is the fastest welterweight in history, and that says a lot, i think footwork is bar none, hand speed a little superior. Holler! Gotta get my posts in before the clone starts jiving. If you see any reposts, short posts that copy my technique, or simply pple starting trouble, then ignore it please. Holler! XX chromosones in the house fo' certain!
Friday Feb 5, 2010 12:11:26 PM
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MisterLee:
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Frank! I posted a long response on the greatest welterweight article, it'll take a while to make it thru moderation, but yeah i been training. My four main techniques will/are the jab, the counter hook, the side kick, and the southern style sweep kick Everything else builds off of it, my stances are a high horse stance as a guard postion, all the foot work will be boxing (lateral movement, forward back ward), all the punches come from heel down stance, shifting from horse stance to front stance, thus using the heel, and hip for power as opposed to the pivot, waist, and shoulders for boxing. It'll be fun to try out, and of course learn boxing, submission wrestling, and sanda eventually. Take care! Getting into shape fo' sure!
Friday Feb 5, 2010 12:15:00 PM
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#1 PacFan "Pacquiao by TKO in the 8th":
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@Frank Z, nah you're right Joe never really was off balance when cutting off the ring. What was I thinking. Last, meaning between Robinson and Ali comparing to being technical. Robinson was the more complete fighter in all of the categories. But I think Ali had the more finest footwork compared to Robinson. Imagine having them three at the same eras. Louis-Ali would have been a helluva fight imo.
Friday Feb 5, 2010 01:00:17 PM
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Frank Z@ #1Pacfan:
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yeah that'd be a tossup, most people i think don't realize how skilled ali actually was. they either see him as really fast early in his career or really tough late, but he brought a new slickness to the heavyweight division that wasn't there before, hje was good at feints, he DID go to the body, and he had excellent balance and coordination between his hands and feet chopping movements when he punched. watch the 11 punches in 3 seconds he put on brian london, id ont' care how gifted you are if you dont' ahve skills combos don't run off like that.
Friday Feb 5, 2010 03:31:03 PM
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Frank Z@ Misterlee:
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Glad to hear it bro, especially that part with the jab and side kick. my back from my shoulderblade down my lats are hurting from isometric side kicks yesterday, hadn't done that conditioning in a good while, really tryign to kick myself into actual fighting shape again with boxing and spar more often with folks, easy to slack when you're by yourself. more opportunity to work BJJ in the future is what i'm hoping as well. who knows with the leg conditioning i may be able to touch the net with my short armed 5-8 self (yeah right!). take care and hope you get to where you want very soon!
Friday Feb 5, 2010 09:16:04 PM
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MIsterLee @ Frank Z:
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Yo dude! Sounds good! Where do you train? I'm in MD! I'm also 5-8, jr. welter, can't wait to join a school, but i'm working my flexibility and cardio, trying to make an easy system with 4 simple techniques: jab, hook, side kick and sweep kick. You still do wushu! THanks! Holler!
Saturday Feb 6, 2010 01:41:20 PM
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Frank Z@ Misterlee:
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Yeah man we gotta do it for all 5-8 welters everywhere lol. i boxed at 147 in collegiate boxing. haven't practiced wushu in a while, i only knew one changchuan form anyway so it's easy for it to get old. did taekwondo again after some time away from that for a year, now i'm back to just boxing and working on ground stuff. learning some exercises from Scott Sonnon through online stuff (check him out!). btw since you're in MD, you should check out Willie "the Bam" Johnson's kung fu school. my friend trains there off and on and he speaks highly of him, johnson's been to china and fought and defeated a few of their champions back in the 80s i believe.
Saturday Feb 6, 2010 08:40:01 PM
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Frank Z@ Misterlee:
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i'm in SC, gonna start going to a gym to spar regularly now. i'm in grad school so i'm trying to keep doing stuff to keep my soul from being sucked dry lol (i'm only half joking).
Saturday Feb 6, 2010 08:42:02 PM
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MisterLee:
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Yo man! Wussup! Thanks man! Nah man... Willie the bam's school.. don't have much respect for them...my old wushu school battled them once at a demo in six flags... they had one or two guys who had huge tricks, bad basics, they did wushu in karate uniforms, and weren't well behaved (like most sports karate practitioners). I trained a really good athlete from there, a nice guy, he had huge potential, but bad basics from training at that school for years. Thanks for the reccomendation tho! Aweseome... SC sounds cool! are you near the beach? Do you train at a good gym? Holler!
Sunday Feb 7, 2010 08:18:08 PM
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Frank Z@ Misterlee:
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that's no good, that's too bad too cause i read his book and i really liked his outlook on martial arts and life, and what he's been through to get the where he is. he might not be very good at training beginners since he truly believes in integrating all the styles of martial arts and encouraging individuality, becoming a world fighter as he calls it which i'm all for. i wish i was near the beach shoot lol. charleston is an amazing town, but nah i'm near the mountains. honestly it's pretty weak here as far as boxing and martial arts scenes. training with the taekwondo club leaves a lot to be desired cause it's more of a workout club and it messes with my boxing msucle memory so i just kinda get messed up. i've mostly been reduced to training on my own studying film of myself and of guys who are good and asking my old coach questions, and individual workouts with folks here and there. it's not that huge a deal now, it's a lifetime contract for me, i'll just keep taking care and learning and move to a city later on with a good scene. actually hope to end up in the DC area later on. if i do and you're still there i'll hit you up more than likely.
Tuesday Feb 9, 2010 11:26:19 AM
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Fast Eddie Lands In Germany, Says He'll Land The Shots To Upset Wlad
"An upset is possible in this as I could see Chambers boxing his way to a UD or SD, but I expect the much more likely scenario of a TKO in favor of Wlad in the middle to late rounds, in fact, I'd probably go with TKO in the 8th." --TSS reader Isaiah give Chambers a chance to get the upset win (photo by Jan Sanders)
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