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| Some of us think we should let Manny's career play out before we tab him the second greatest of all time. But Pacmaniacs don't want to wait. |
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Ray Robinson, Pacman, Ali Is Third-"Greatest Ever" Voting Over, Debate Begins
By Ron Borges
Over 500,000 votes worldwide have been tallied and the results are now in. What they prove is that while time marches on one constant remains in boxing – the unassailable greatness of Sugar Ray Robinson.
While many might quarrel with the idea that Manny Pacquiao is a greater fighter than Muhammad Ali, as the voters in The Greatest Ever Boxer competition decided by putting the Filipino Flash ahead of Ali in the vote for all-time greatest boxer, no one could eclipse Robinson, who fought his last fight 44 years ago and has been dead for 20 years yet lives on not only in the minds of fight fans but in the deep respect held for his vast set of skills.
Robinson was the only fighter nominated in two weight classes – welterweight and middleweight – and won both divisions in balloting to name the greatest fighter of all-time in each of the eight original weight divisions. Ali was named the greatest heavyweight, which would have pained my father deeply because he went to his grave believing Joe Louis would have whipped Muhammad’s ass, an argument we engaged in many times from the time Ali first appeared on the heavyweight radar in the mid-1960s to well past his retirement.
That is part of what keeps the sport alive despite its best efforts at self-immolation. Every generation has its favorites and fiercely defends them. With Pacquiao at the peak of his world-wide fame after defeating Oscar De La Hoya, Ricky Hatton and Miguel Cotto in his last three fights in ever more spectacular fashion, his supporters hit the internet hard. Pacquiao got 56 per cent of the vote in the featherweight division, easily surpassing Willie Pep, who got 15 per cent and Salvador Sanchez, who received eight per cent, and ended up with more votes than Ali, which boggles the mind.
Having had an uncle who was a close friend of Pep’s, an older brother who believed he was second only to Robinson in boxing skill and having been exposed to many films of him in his prime the thought of a Pep-Pacquiao fight is intriguing because there could not be two more contrasting styles. Pep was the consummate boxer and Pacquiao the constantly stalking puncher. This would have been speed vs. power but the guy with the power also has enough speed to have made it interesting. Hard to say who would win but it would have done big business on pay-per-view.
The same is true if Sanchez got in with the winner because anyone who ever saw him fight would argue neither Pacquiao nor Pep would have been a lock against him.
For my money the heavyweight vote was disappointing but predictable with Mike Tyson finishing second to Ali, a testament to celebrity and ESPN highlights over cold, hard facts. Ali received 48 per cent of the vote in that division, Tyson 18 per cent and Rocky Marciano 11 per cent. The latter is also surprising because even though Marciano was the only heavyweight champion to retire undefeated (49-0) many believe Louis, Jack Dempsey and Jack Johnson would have all been his master.
For my taste it is Ali, Louis and then take your pick, as long as the pick isn’t Tyson. Tyson is a guy who never got off the floor to win and was stopped by Buster Douglas, Evander Holyfield, Lennox Lewis, Danny Williams and Kevin McBride. Did I forget anybody?
He was not only not the second best heavyweight of all-time, he wasn’t even the second best heavyweight of his own time in my mind, behind at least Holyfield and Lewis. Just to refresh the memory he was 0-3 against them.
It was to me astounding to see Pacquiao finish ahead of Ali in the overall vote but just as my Dad would passionately make the case for Louis over Ali, surely Pacquiao’s fans will argue pound-for-pound his skills rival Ali’s. Below is a list of the top three finishers in each division with a word or two on each voting.
World's Greatest Ever Heavyweight
1. Muhammad Ali 48% 2. Mike Tyson 16% 3. Rocky Marciano 11%. Enough said on this category but I would have gone with Ali, Louis and Dempsey.
World's Greatest Ever Light heavyweight
1. Roy Jones Jr won with 37% of the vote over No. 2 Archie Moore, the oldest man ever to win the title, at 17% and No. 3 Joe Calzaghe at 14%. Calzaghe retired undefeated and is a tweener in that the bulk of his work was done at super middleweight so to me, Moore was clearly No. 1, knockout artist Bob Foster No. 2 and Gene Tunney, who retired with a 65-1-1 record, 45 Kos and also the heavyweight title to his credit, third.
World's Greatest Ever Middleweight
1. Sugar Ray Robinson 47% 2. Marvin Hagler 24% 3. Bernard Hopkins 12%.
I have to admit some bias here because of a long association with Hagler but to me again the vote should have been clear: Robinson, Hagler and Harry Greb. Hopkins once said to me when I asked who he wished he could have fought out of all the all-time greats and he said “Hagler.’’ I asked who he thought would have won. Out of respect he replied, “I don’t know but it would have been a great fight. We would have both ended up in the emergency room.’’ When I later saw Hagler I related that conversation and his face turned stone cold before he said. “He’s right about one thing. We would have both been in the emergency room. I would have gone there to visit him.’’ That’s why I love Marvelous Marvin.
World's Greatest Ever Welterweight
1. Sugar Ray Robinson 39% 2. Sugar Ray Leonard 36% 3. Oscar de la Hoya 10%.
Hard to argue with the first two but come on with De La Hoya. I am a great admirer of him both as a boxer and as someone who has given much to the sport without once besmirching it. But third best welterweight of all-time? I think even De La Hoya would say “Huh?’’
To me the debate would be between Barney Ross, Mickey Walker and Thomas Hearns with Walker getting my vote.
World's Greatest Ever Lightweight
1. Roberto Duran 33% 2. Henry Armstrong 22% 3. Floyd Mayweather 14%.
I would have reversed the first two but can’t quarrel with them as clearly the best. My number three would be Benny Leonard, who fought in the 1920s, and is widely seen by knowledgeable students of the fight game as one of the greatest boxers of all-time. Having said that, Mayweather would have done well in any era. Would have loved to see a Duran-Mayweather match because of the contrasting styles.
World's Greatest Ever Featherweight
1. Manny Pacquaio 56% 2. Willie Pep 15% 3. Salvador Sanchez 8%
If you reversed Pep and Pacquiao I would be well satisfied and couldn’t really argue all that loudly for anyone other than those three at the top of the list.
World's Greatest Ever Bantamweight
1. Wilfredo Gomez 32% 2. Ruben Olivares 12% 3. Carlos Zarate 10%.
I agree with the first two choices in that order. Although I have great respect for Zarate I would have chosen Panama Al Brown, a guy from the vast long ago but a guy old fight guys used to talk about with great admiration and respect.
World's Greatest Ever Flyweight
1. Ricardo Lopez 27% 2. Jimmy Wilde 20% 3. Michael Carbajal 12%
This is a “wilde’’ group. I always thought Lopez was very underrated on pound for pound lists because of his size, or lack of it. When you retire undefeated that tells me you were a baaaad boy, especially if you fought as often as he did. My choices would have been Wilde, who many historians rank among the greatest fighters of all-time, first; Lopez second and Miguel Canto third. I am mystified by Carbajal finishing above Canto and some of the other nominees, most especially Khaosai Galaxy, who was 49-1 with 47 knockouts. Galaxy defended the WBA title 19 times, winning 16 by knockout. Carbajal would have been his 17th had they ever met.
I feel nearly as strongly about Pascual Perez over Carbajal. Yet having said that there is no denying Michael Carbajal’s popularity and his historical position as the first guy of his size to earn a $1 million payday and bring recognition to the smallest men in boxing.
There are my final choices. I’m sure you have your own. Let the arguments begin.
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rtokworld:
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You've got to be joking Jeff Chandler got to be in the top three of the greatest bantam weights. Wilfred Benitez would rank over de la Hoya.
I would go with you on Ali, Louis and Dempsey as the greatest, but it should be Willie Pep, Sanchez and then the Pacman for the featherweights. Roy who? Archie Moore Number 1, Ortiz 2. and Calzaghe at #3. Roy, when he fought top name boxers he lost the matches or they were already awashed.
Tuesday Dec 15, 2009 11:41:19 PM
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mike p:
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Where are the MAYWEATHERS spots?
Wednesday Dec 16, 2009 02:30:16 AM
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junji:
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Pancho villa should have been nominated in flyweight
Wednesday Dec 16, 2009 03:43:09 AM
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Richie:
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I'm a filipino but the result seems to be a little bit Filipino biased given that Flash Elorde is ahead of Ali on top of Pacquiao among top five, etc. The poll should be reviewed such that it is confirmed to prevent repetitive and automated voting. The poll should also show the country demographics of the voters. Bottomline, voters should come from boxing writers, historians from all over the world.
Wednesday Dec 16, 2009 05:34:19 AM
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ramborge:
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manny is voted 2nd best,its legitimate,what about the self proclaimed? hahahaha! floyd shame on you!
Wednesday Dec 16, 2009 05:55:05 AM
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nyoke:
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Sorry Buddy but we do have our own opinion and facts to argue with..
Wednesday Dec 16, 2009 08:02:31 AM
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Where's my name?:
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Sir, where's my name here? Why am not included? Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
Wednesday Dec 16, 2009 09:23:07 AM
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williamu137:
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These polls are ludricus. Tyson and De La Hoya were great but top 3 in there division come on. Pacquiao is amazing but to be ahead of Ali is straight ignorance. I wonder if most the indivduals who voted are under 21 years old. I've been watching boxing for over 30 years and i agree Pacquiao and Mayweather are the best fighters p4p in the last 20 years. Roy Jones, sweet p, chavez are all in this arguement. What Pacquiao has done the last 5 years destroys everybody but if you go by the whole decade then i would pick Floyd. What hurts Floyd he was a top p4p fighter in the late 90's. I believe the fighter of the decade shopuld be put on hold until after March 13th. If we choose one and they get beat then i personally believe it makes the reward invalid. Pacquiao is the 2nd greatest ever but is a underdog against Floyd. Why can't we wait until after there fight to see who the greater fighter is. After 2007, everyone said Floyd was easily fighter of the decade but after 21 months off and pacquiao destroying everyone like a F5 tornado then i understand that Pacquiao deservfes it also. The bottomline, What makes this fight so big is that not only do we have to of the top 25 fighters ever but the winner is the best p4p, best in there era, and fighter of the decade. Bty, This poll should be done by boxing experts because the results to me show it was more of popularity contest. I'm surprised that Floyd was not rated the worst fighter ever even though he is the most complete fighter maybe in boxing history and maybe the smartest ever.(in the ring)
Wednesday Dec 16, 2009 09:56:19 AM
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Antonio Puerto Rico:
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William, get over it. Manny Pacquiao whether he is ahead or behind Ali doesn't matter. I closed my eyes and remove the Filipino flag associated with PACQUIAO and think of Ali as someone not from America but from the Ireland. I took my prejudice and bias out and guess what, an Irish champ isn't necessarily better than a Tunisian Pacquiao or vice versa. As a Puerto Rican though, my blood would wish I have a fellow Rican in the list but nevertheless, I am happy to see both guys up there in the super echelons of boxing greats. I am super okey with that. Hope you are too.
Wednesday Dec 16, 2009 10:13:14 AM
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kountedout:
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Im not going to even comment on that trash! this is totally disgusting! jack johnson, joe louis. This aint even worth commenting! total trash
Wednesday Dec 16, 2009 11:05:54 AM
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Shabs:
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I don't know about Pacquiao of being ahead of Ali, If he beat May and Shane maybe or greatest. Mayweather will never be one of the greatest fighter, reason because of, dodging and running away from challenger. The undefeated record don't mean anything in any fighting style, it's who you fought.
Wednesday Dec 16, 2009 11:27:37 AM
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GerardMcL:
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I would have had both Ali and Duran above Pacquaio, in fact Manny wouldn't have made it into my top 5. If he whips Floyd he gets there but my top 3 will always be SRR, Duran, Ali unless something unbelievable comes along.
I am a Manny fan but there is no doubt that his popularity and the time of voting was a huge benefit.
Wednesday Dec 16, 2009 12:55:33 PM
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Ron Borngenius:
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There is no doubt Robinson will always be the greatest; an untouchable boxing virtuoso & ring immortal. As an ageing middleweight he was magnificent, as a prime & deadly young welterweight he was from another planet. It surprises me that he was so clear cut as the greatest MW. His title reigns at MW (5 of them) were not nearly as consistent as a Hagler or Monzon - though I still think a 37 yr old Sugarman would beat both those guys at their best. A past his best Robinson beat some great genuine 160lb'ers in his 30's when he often weighed around 155 - he weighed 157 for the Maxim fight! - No catchweight title fights in them days. As a welterweight is where the margin should have been wider.
I don't know how Mr. "Super Fight Writer" Borges could have Barney Ross & Thomas Hearns & not Leonard (who beat Hearns @ 147 in a classic) & Robinson (basically universally acknowledged as the mightiest WW to ever step in a ring - hands down) - Walker I understand but Ross & Hearns? Could be PCP or Crack? Even Tito was a better success @ WW than Hearns (Though both were beasts @ 154).
This poll was always gonna be a joke - delusional fans who have popularity confused with ability. Manny "Past Their Prime" Pacquiao 2nd Greatest?? $Oscar "I Fail & I Quit" $De $La $Hoya the 3rd best WW of all-time?? Roy "The Journeyman Slayer" Jones best LHW of all time?? Hopkins 3rd best MW of all-time?? - he would'nt get near the old Mike McCallum that James Toney drew with then beat. Mike Tyson?? Where is Joe Louis?????????? "WBO"Joe "The Legend Slayer / Slapper" Calzaghe????????????????? I am feeling sick now.
The whole thing was nearly as big of a waste of time as this article. Who would have guessed?
1. Robinson 2. Louis 3. Ali 4. Moore = 5. Leonard & Duran @ 135.
Wednesday Dec 16, 2009 12:57:54 PM
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honky tonk man:
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oscar de la hoya? number 3? you have got to be kidding. ahead of tommy hearns? i will go so far to say the randy shields that competed so well against hearns, leonard and cuevas would have beaten the golden boy.
Wednesday Dec 16, 2009 01:02:24 PM
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Anonymous user:
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Hey anyone that had less then 50 fights should not be mention. Lets face it they were pampered and cherry picked theyre opponents. If they did have less then 50 fights then they should have at least fought 10 HOF to be considered THE GREATEST TOP 3. Both Dela Hoya & Mayweather won less then 50 fights so noway are they top 3. Take away Mayweather and Dela Hoya and put Hearns on both spots. He tangled with 3 of the top spots Hagler, Sugar Ray & Duran and held his own!!
Wednesday Dec 16, 2009 01:38:32 PM
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MO:
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Listen, poll or expert opinion, there are no criteria across any of which anyone can ever score better than Ali. One has to first and foremost understand the criteria that must be taken into account. Agreed, Ali was non-conventional and that's why he positioned 'boxing' as the premier sport, top most sport. Let me ask, who is the best cricketer in the world? Bradman or Tendulkar or Richards? Don't bother to rank order but note, all them had their own unique and surely, non-conventional approaches. Who's the greatest football player? Maradona or Ronaldo (the cheat Ronaldo) or Pele or George Best? Again, these players innovated, never bother to take a look at what the cricket grammar said. Tiger Woods, Usain Bolt, Seve or Palmer none of them adopted the conventional methods.
SRR was Ali's idol but better than Ali? Pac better than Ali? What a load of rubbish!!! Ali was a tactician as well as a strategist. He'd change a game plan in seconds while fighting. He'd would also devise impeccable strategies for boxers who'd be unlikely to change over a certain period of time or until the boxing match was over. From individuals to teams in all sports adopt Ali's tactics or strategies to succeed. Most multinational firms such as Sony, entrepreneurs or film stars follow Ali almost bit by bit. This is about boxing as a sport and rating of boxers on certain criteria. SRR or Pac belong to weights where top boxers are born almost everyday. The difficulty in heavyweight division is so extreme that we haven't seen a complete boxer since Ali. The most important criterion must be 'which division is toughest (given level of endurance, courage, toughness and intelligence needed)'. The answer is 'heavyweight'. Thus whoever is best in this division is the greatest boxer. I don't believe any boxer except Ali ever used their brains, let alone designing tactics or strategies that are being imitated by almost all. Boxers are about one-two-hook, one-one-hook or one-two-one-hook and take cover (holding hands up) when attacked. There's no need to use brains here. But Ali wasn't about the boxing text, he invented a kind of boxing that was a triangulated form of both art and science. We don't see that anymore. No wonder we don't watch it with any kind of enthusiasm. It's all about power like power tennis or one touch football. Only winning matters. It should but not at the expense of creativity or art. Ali had it all. He fought the best heavyweights around for many years, he fought more champions, techniquely won the championship four times (win over Foreman was indeed regaining the title the third time) and importantly, fought the US establishments as well as millions of racist Americans. Nearly all boxers do not even have the intelligence to articulate a full meaningful sentence. Besides, Pac has a long way to go. It seems, we don't waste a single moment to pit someone against Ali for the top spot whether it's the 'greatest boxer' or the 'greatest sportsman' of all times. It's pointless really. Logically, no one can show that there's anyone better (or even close) than ALI. I would bet everything. I'd gladly accept any challenge. But please don't resort to description rather than analysis. Only sound analysis reveals the right answer. Thanks Will, Kount and Gerard. Will, you're perfect in your analysis.
Wednesday Dec 16, 2009 02:08:41 PM
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xris:
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hi to all. its the people to choose the best boxer ever in this era. it's the time they have to argue. it's pacman time so people likes his style.
Wednesday Dec 16, 2009 02:39:52 PM
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SALT lover:
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And here we go again.....
Wednesday Dec 16, 2009 03:13:34 PM
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@SALT lover:
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This "greatest ever" poll is absolutely worthless. 500,000 people replied? Before they should have been allowed to vote, they should be able to identify Charley Burley and Joey Giardello. Anyone who never heard of fighters like them have no say in my book about who or what is great. And the fact is, ring greatness isn't a popularity contest. It should be examined by minds that understand the difference between Benny Leonard and Benny Hill.
Wednesday Dec 16, 2009 03:41:38 PM
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cezpel:
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Not only does he beat multiple hall of famers, Barerra, Morales, Marquez, delaHoya, Hatton and now Cotto and win seven divisional World titles, a record. He then goes on and in a poll comes out as 2nd greatest fighter in history, yet you begrudge him that honor and distinction inspite of the glaring evidence in your face of his GREATNESS! Your bigotry knows no bounds and you pretend to be an erudite scholar of the sweet science. Go stuff this column up your axx!
Wednesday Dec 16, 2009 04:00:45 PM
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#1 PacFan "Pacquiao #3 on ATG list"Standing firm!:
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I have to put Manny coming third behind Ali in the overall best boxer. I've watch Pep on films and would have to say the he is ahead of Pacquiao. We may agree is disagree with these results but the numbers don't lie. It's the fact that Manny is right along with these past greats(Robinson, Ali, Pep, and Sanchez) and that's good enough for me. Manny will never be the #1 best fighter of all time but to be in the top three is just phenomenal.
Wednesday Dec 16, 2009 05:47:16 PM
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Tex:
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Manny Pacquiao is not the second best fighter of all-time. That's completely absurd.
Wednesday Dec 16, 2009 07:51:06 PM
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Real Talk:
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True Spill #1 Pacfan. I'm going to watch some of the Great Willie Pep. Dueces
Wednesday Dec 16, 2009 08:23:39 PM
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pacfan:
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manny pacquiao behind ray and ali is third? hmmm! i don't agree. ali has entertained alot of people during his days. as a matter of fact, i was a young boy in the philippines when i watch his fights and i was always at the front of tv dying to see him fight joe frazier.
Wednesday Dec 16, 2009 09:00:06 PM
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mabii:
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Great debate guys. However, having had the pleasure of watching Ray Leonard and Thomas Hearns in thier primes as welterweights I would have to put them at 1 and 2 respectively. Hearns had sickening kayo power as a welterweight and leonard, well leonard had everything circa 1980. I certainly believe the Leonard who fought Dave Boy Green was a fighting machine who would have beaten Manny or Floyd. The same can be said of "Cassius Clay" (His legal name at the time) when he fought Cleveland Williams. Mayweather deserves an entirely new category - Best defensive fighter of all time! I thought this would belong to Wilfred "The radar" Benitez bu Floyd has him beat in that category
Wednesday Dec 16, 2009 09:41:54 PM
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brownsugar:
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well said Salt,.. couldn't have expressed it any better myself,. a seriously skewed Poll with most voters probably still wearing diapers in the 1980's..
Wednesday Dec 16, 2009 09:43:18 PM
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Fe'Roz @ brownsugar and Salt:
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No doubt meaningless. We all know that if the playing field were even the 'Depends' voters would have balanced the 'diaper' crew by a long shot. But the former is still reading paper and voting with ballots ....and the later reading less and key-tapping more. These votes are like shoe-shining to power connects; an easy way to impress the judges but with little or no cumulative merit. pc
Wednesday Dec 16, 2009 11:17:09 PM
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Isaiah:
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Floyd Mayweather will learn against Manny Pacquiao what Roy Jones learned a few times over the last 5 years, most recently with Danny Green. To paraphase a line from Eminem, Superman ain't savin SPIT! What I'm getting at is this, Manny Pacquiao deserves and has earned to be ranked high up, Floyd Mayweather hasen't earned it. Although, as big of a Manny fan as I am, the #2 spot is too high. The top 15 or maybe top 10 is acceptable. #2 is just too much! I'll go with probaly #10. By the way, I can't believe I forgot Archie Moore and Harry Greb for my Lightheavy weight rankings, my mistake. Obviously Archie is the greatest Light Heavy ever and Harry Greb is big time on as an honorable mention. My bad for also forgetting Salvador Sanchez for Feather weight and completly skipping over Bantam greats Carlos Zarate, Ruben Olivares and Wilfred Gomez. They obviously belong on the list along with Flyweight great Jimmy Wilde. That man had an awesome record. No list of all time greats is complete without Henry Armstrong, of course for take your pick, Feather weight, Light weight or Welter weight and attempting to win a title at Middle weight. Man, that's how you do it! Including my previous list on the other article, that should cover everyone worth covering. To anwser someone's question, where does Floyd Mayweather belong on the list? Ask yourself some questions. Did he hold 3 lineal titles at the same time like Armstrong? Has he held a total of 4 lineal titles like Pacquiao who may end up holding a #5 lineal title after beating him at Welter weight? How many future hall of famers has Floyd beaten? Does Floyd have 50 wins or more? Please don't say how Manny has lost, I don't care. At the greatest weight class in boxing, Welter weight, where Floyd has been at for 4 years, who has Floyd fought? Floyd fans, are you stuttering worse then Porky Pig at this point? Yey, I thought so.
Thursday Dec 17, 2009 12:37:40 AM
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Mike:
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Puglister
I'm Pinoy and truly i'm truly proud of what accomplishment of my compatriot. Manny Pacquaio is one the greatest living boxer there's no doubt about it. But putting him right now on top of ALI is a little bit absurd. May be after a couple of years more and Manny be able to defeat all those living elite welters such Floyd and Moseley then safe to say he can level himself to ALI.
A boxer from 106 pounder and needed to put a heavy metal on his pocket during weigh in just to qualify and meet the minimu weight limit is something for you to think of. Anyone of you watchning Manny 10 years ago fighting on top of ring then you will not believe that he is now the real Manny Pacquaio of ten years past.
I'm quite lucky that i was able to witness a living legend from his humble begginings then witnessing of his latest accomplishments.
Thursday Dec 17, 2009 05:24:37 AM
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blogista:
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INDEED PACQUIAO IS GREATER THAN ALI AT #2 AT THE MOMENT
as good as muhammad ali was (and i'm a fan), his greatness was derived more from his work outside the ring than inside of it. Ali was somewhat of a dirty fighter who liked to hit and clinch and grab his opponent in back of the neck at the slightest trouble. Ali copied the style of SRR whom he idolizes and was just a little flashier. Ali was fast alright, but can you say that he was faster than floyd? Check his youtube fights.
ALI WAS DISLIKED BY MAINSTREAM AMERICA until he refused to serve in an unpopular war. More than his fight for racial equality, ali was loved because of his stand against the Vietnam war and his willingness to go to prison because of it. You have to look at it in the context of a raging war that was killing tens of thousands of America's young men. What father, mother, brother, sister, son, or daughter would want a loved to be forced into a war halfway around the world in a country they never heard of. I suppose, that in a way made a living martyr out of ali who with his gift of gab was now fighting their fight. A fight one could truly say was a fight for life or death. Simply put, ali's crusade literally saved tens of thousands of americans from being killed or maimed permanently physically and psychologically regardless of race creed or religion.
A LOOK AT SUGAR RAY ROBINSON:
with all due respect, IT IS EASY TO LOOK GREAT WHEN YOU'RE FIGHTING MOSTLY LOCALS AND NOBODYS. Let's have some intellectual honesty here folks. Did these voters, judges even look at the records of the fighters they voted for or was it pure impression and emotion. Don't be dazzled by the prolific output of any fighter but rather check its quality. The great SRR fought 4 guys in his last year with a WIN/LOSS record in last 6 fights as follows: 6 straight losses. Twice against harvey mccullough, once each with jimmy beecham and gaylord barnes. SRR fought a total of 8 guys with 0/6 win/losses; 12 guys with 1/5 win/losses; 28 guys with 2/4 win/loss in their last 6 fights when they fought SRR. Pacquiao (like ali) on the other hand fought 1 guy with 6 straight losses; 1 with 5 losses and 6 with 4 losses only in his first 2 years and never looked back.
Please bear in mind also that during SRR's time boxing was disorganized (at best) and corrupt & mob controlled (at worst). They were drawing from a small pool of fighters mostly americans some british, mexicans and canadians. International commerical airline flight did not come about until after WWII and even then most were afraid of flying due to frequent crashes in its early development. If you had to travel 10,000 miles you'll probably do it by way of slow boat that took you 5/6 weeks. My point, there were no fighters coming from all around the world that would have provided decent competition. Fighters from belarus, kazakhstan, uzbekistan, ukraine, russia, ghana among others were unheard of. Today if you are a champion and fought that kind of competition, why you'd be laughed out of the sport. Some people even mentioned the great willy pep. Do not simply go by the fighters prolificity check the facts. I promise you'll be somewhat embarassed. Again, it easy to look good when your opponent is bad.
Finally, please check the records of pacquiao's opponents the past eleven years and you'll find some have better fight history than what many here call greats, the same people who 2/3 years ago were quiet and looked agreeable when floyd jr. started proclaiming that he was the greatest of all time. These are the same people who today, will not put floyd among the top 30 greatest because they really can see their guy is about to be blown away and shatter the myth. Peace.
Thursday Dec 17, 2009 06:37:51 AM
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gibola:
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Ray Robinson has all my respect and he may (and I say, may) well have been the best welter of all-time but he was nowhere near the best middleweight. The guy who was given hell by Basilio and Turpin twice gets beaten by Monzon, Jones Jr and Hagler. SRR is a real legend, one of the best fighters ever - but he was mostly past his prime as a middle and just a blanket response that he's the best is disrespectful to all the great 160lb champions who wouyld have given him hell.
PS - Heavyweights? My guess is Holmes beats Dempsey, Marciano and possibly Ali, but he never gets a mention.
Thursday Dec 17, 2009 07:05:24 AM
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ben o'connor:
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this poll on the morning of 14th march 2010 will be very different when PBF scghools pacquiao!
Thursday Dec 17, 2009 10:16:41 AM
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alfredos:
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pac man is great but i still dont think he is ranked amongst the great ali and robinson.
Thursday Dec 17, 2009 10:36:35 AM
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Matthew:
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There are a lot of questionable (at best) and dubious (at worst) choices on these lists. First of all, Pacquiao at number 2 overall? You have to be kidding. Even if we give him the benefit of the doubt and say that it's too early to rank him since he's still active, for my money he doesn't have a chance to crack the top 10. With the accomplishments of the great fighters of the past, and with the fact that fighters today fight far less frequently, I say it's nearly impossible for anyone to crack the top 10 all-time. Even Bert Sugar says he has Pacquiao "somewhere in the teens." Now, to some of the other selections. Tyson as number 2 heavyweight? What a joke. That man isn't even deserving of being in the top 10; he'd be lucky to be in the top 15, and he certainly doesn't rate higher than Lewis or Holyfield, who I'd put in the top 10. I wouldn't rate Roy Jones above Moore, Foster, or Spinks, and I certainly wouldn't put Calzaghe in there. De la Hoya at number 3 welter? Come on. No chance. De la Hoya was a good (not great) fighter who was popular, but he is in no way a top 5 or 10 welter. Like Lotierzo, I would have put Benny Leonard in the lightweight mix, but you probably can't go wrong with Leonard, Duran, and Armstrong in the lightweight rankings in any order.
Thursday Dec 17, 2009 10:37:44 AM
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@cezpel:
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You're overreacting. Manny Pacquiao is already a great fighter. To call him the second greatest fighter who ever lived is to disrespect the many past greats who have accomplished at least as much as Manny. Tell me what you know about Ezzard Charles. I suspect many who tout Manny so high havev't the first clue about how great Ezzard was. See? if your knowledge of great boxers is limited to Ali, Manny, Robinson, and Roy Jones, you ought to get busy learning before you offer opinions.
Thursday Dec 17, 2009 12:16:27 PM
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brownsugar@Fe'Roz:
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Ha ha,... funny,.. great comments...
Thursday Dec 17, 2009 12:23:24 PM
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Lodi Dodi @ blogista:
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Robinson was 44 yrs old in his last year of boxing. Maybe at that age & almost 200 pro fights even a genius like him would be just a little scratchy. By then he was broke, in debt to the IRS, fighting for a pittance & long over the hill. Very sad indeed. Why not look at his first 12 years as a pro; the amount of former & future world champions he beat (Incl. Armstrong at age 22 & even Willie Pep as an amateur).
He was beaten once in 130 odd fights up until Turpin 1 (decison via another fistic immortal; a young Mr. LaMotta who outweighed a young Ray by 15 or so pounds). The truth is Robinson basically fought bums on his famous tour of Europe once he had chopped up Jake for his 160 pound crown. His home base was Paris where he spent most of his time playing roulette & nailing french chicks. (Why Not?)
No doubt he thought Turpin was just a typical british joke fighter & got outhustled (though it was much closer than what most british writers have observed over the years - the full fight is available) by a superfit Turpin in what was considered a miracle at the time. If you view the full tape of the rematch a much fitter Robinson was in much better form against an always awkward & lunging Turpin; the fight pretty much stinks until Robinson had his eye split & started unloading with his lethal 2 fisted arsenal.
There has probably never been (or will be) a greater man in boxing than Ali who was indeed a great, great fighter at his best; but there has never been (or will be) a greater fighter than Sugar Ray Robinson. No one will ever have the longevity, versatility, ring brains, the all-round boxing skill & deadly 2 fisted 1 punch KO power (Ali never had that). Aside from his deadly offence; Robinson could defend himself with great skill & had very few technical flaws, if any at his very best.
Most importantly - No fighter has ever looked as good in a ring as him; his classic side-on stance & freakish ballet like footwork, effortless movement, hands loose & held beautifully. Timing. His ability to unleash inventive, accurate & deadly 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10... punch combinations along with all the heart & grit that makes a real champion - he was virtually unchallenged at 147 & beat the very best at 160 up until he was 38 (when he had lost just 6 out of almost pro 150 fights by then) & long past his magical prime.
There is complete footage available of his last fight at 147 (at age 29 & 109-1-2) against Charlie Fusari; while not a great fight it has to be the most skilful & incredible boxing exhibition I have ever seen; he won by a landslide after 15, it is also suspected that Robinson carried (I agree & it was not the first time) Fusari. Boxing fans must see a copy of this as it is the only complete footage available of Ray at 147 & probably the tail end of his absolute best years.
A lot of people dont realize that when he was chopping down guys like LaMotta in 1951, followed by Turpin, Graziano (an awesome 3 rounds then brutal KO) : a lot of boxing observers & fans at the time thought he was on the downer; although in fairness those guys were aswell. This was all before he got melted by the heat against an easily outpointed LHW champ Joey Maxim & retired for almost three years; before all his classic KO's of Olson & furious battles with Castellani, Fulmer & of course the mighty Basilio.
These are the fights by which a lot of people may judge him - still capable of conjuring up his old magic at times though lacking the the consistency which would have seen him easily dispose of these guys in years gone by. (probably why they were such great fights though - with his age & wear; the gap between himself & other fighters had closed dramatically.)
Ali was shot by his early to mid 30's in the sense that he was slower almost 2 a point where taking unneccessary punishment
was seemingly part of his gameplan & this was because like Roy Jones Jr. ( who wasted good years fighting club fighters on HBO) now; the gifts of his youth had left him - though his granite chin did not - unlike Jones Jr. who never had a chin. This coupled with a lack of fundamental defensive knowledge & technique makes boxing a very dangerous sport indeed.
I love Pacman but no way is he no. 2 of all time not even no.2 of the last 30 years, not even close. - I don't even rate him above guys like Basilio, Moore, Charles, Duran, Arguello, Hearns, McCallum, Hagler, Toney, Whitaker or even a prime Evander or Mosely : Let alone guys like Louis, Leonard, Ali & Robinson.
Still & rightly so; a fighters competition faced & beaten is the main yardstick for boxing greatness, not a perfect record. All in all if Floyd wins & he & Manny both retire; Manny despite some blemishes on his record will be far more respected by fight fans than Floyd - although if Floyd beats Manny then Sugar Shane (doubt it) - people may not mock Mayweather for having a heart like a pet rabbit & ducking every1 decent as he has done 4 the last 6 or 7 years.
If Manny beats Floyd then Sugar Shane at 147 NOT 142 well 4 sure chuck the little demon in the top 10 or 15 for sure. He should perhaps give Marquez a 3rd crack also. Pacquiao is 1 bad little man - Roach has created a monster no doubt. Though he has been very, very wisely managed.
To be fair as a Pac fan I will say he has probably collected most of his best wins against guys who are just past their best years; not his fault as everything is about timing. Morales, Barrera ; had both been 2 hell & back by the time Pac got the better of them, not all his own way, no doubt. Marquez was 30 in their 1st classic fight (a draw was fair). Marquez 2 was very close & perhaps should have went the other way if not a draw at least; Marquez & the Pac match up great, though I think Marquez is getting & looking a little old now.
Club fighter Diaz' belt was a virtual handover : his only fight at 135, next was weight drained & WAY past it Oscar, WWE Wrestler / Clubfighter Ricky Hatton who was toyed with by Floyd in a sparring session on HBO was next (good riddance) - an average fighter who's best ever night came by fouling & wrestling his way to victory against an old & stupid Tszyu. (British Judges to be wary of & of course helpful Ref. who assisted Ricky). Awesome KO by the Pac - Hatton still sounds groggy from that dose of leather poisoning!
Cotto who I think is his best win; although definitely not the same Cotto we once saw; still a real tough fight for little Manny, it was the best I have seen of him yet. Although very annoying it was not at 147 yet was still recognized as a WW title; all credit must go 2 Manny; a humble & gracious champion who keeps getting better. .
The Key : Great Trainer. Few & far between these days tragically for this great sport; which is healthy though in all honesty a pale imitation of what it once was.
My heart says Pac but my mind & my $$ say Mayweather by decision. I think Floyd will elevate for this one & be on his game & I just think Manny won't get to him & plus he has'nt fought a counter-puncher, let alone a guy who will by nature move away from him since Marquez 2 & Marquez gave him 1 hell of a battle in March 08. I think both Mayweather let alone Mosley may just be asking 2 much of Manny - unless it is at 142.5 or some other ridiculous catchweight.
I am glad justice has been done for Robinson - a modern boxing master & pioneer who had a mixture of talent, athleticism, heart & brains that will never be seen again in a ring. Fans should never be able to vote on these matters - there are 2 many who don't really know the sport or it's rich history
To see woeful Joe Calzaghe at No. 3 LHW & not someone like Ezzard Charles says it all I suppose.
P4P
1. Robinson
2. Ali
= 3 Leonard & Louis
4. Moore
= 5 Charles, Pep & a young Duran
Heavyweight
1. Ali
2. Louis
=3 Dempsey, Walcott & Holmes
Thursday Dec 17, 2009 01:28:15 PM
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Smiley C:
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I love Delilah, too, Lodi Dodi! Some what are you talking about? My heart and $$$ told me to go with Goliath, but David slew him with a slingshot and cut his head off with a sword. Pacquiao is going to whoop Mayweather with speed and knock him out with power fo' sure!
Thursday Dec 17, 2009 09:58:05 PM
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Smiley C @ Lodi Dodi:
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Next time write a Bible fo' sure!
Thursday Dec 17, 2009 09:59:39 PM
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p4p775:
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this is a joke most people that voted for pacquiao are all FLIPS!!!!!!!!!!! lol
he not even in my top 20 or 10!!!!!!!! till he beat mayweather and mosley without any advantages.
joe louis, duran, robinson,leonard,chavez, whitaker all from different era's tougher fighters also.
i aint hating on pacquiao. but roach is handpicking and putting catchweight fights, somethin that all these great fighters i mentioned never done.
this list is a joke.
people dont kno shit about boxing and its history.
pacquiao dont even make top 10 all time no way.
Thursday Dec 17, 2009 10:10:02 PM
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1:
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Benny Hill, master boxer. ;-)
Thursday Dec 17, 2009 11:27:35 PM
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ben o'connor:
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its funny how people say tyson is not a great because of his losses to holyfield and lewis. he was at his peak for may be 3 and half years thats why he can not be classed as an all time great, not because of his losses to those 2. if it was on skills at there peak i beleive he would be in top 5 heavies (just my opinion by the way). people persist with that theory saying holyfield and lewis where too much! non-sense. lewis was knocked out at his peak by mccall and rahman, both about as good as buster if not worse (definately rahman) so why is he considered a greater fighter than tyson? he beat tyson in 2002!! 15 years and a jail sentence after tysons best. but holmes who was obliterated by tyson when way past his best is still regarded as a great, , why???? this poll should be based on fighters ability. what im trying to say is holmes in many peoples eyes is regarded as an all time great even tho he was beaten when well past his best. but tyson who was also way past his best when beaten isnt, and people use the same excuse......he was beaten by lewis and holyfield. so what!!!!? robinson lost twice to paul pender!!!!! admittedly robinson had already cemented himself as an all time great and it was common knowledge that he shouldnt of even been in the ring for some of his defeats, and tysons losses certainly have tarnished his greatness, because his greatness was very short lived! not trying to compare tyson to robinson by any means but as i said just a theory and an opinion. if your not gonna class tyson as a great because of his short lived brilliance or lack of heart and desire in later stages of career then absolutely fine! BUT STOP USING THE HOLYFIELD AND LEWIS THEORY!! 99% of the graetest fighters that have ever boxed lost to men with half there ability when at ther peak AND past there peak. styles make fights as they say so stop using defeats to lesser opponents as reason to not induct people to your lists! or ill have to start saying 1.joe calzaghe 2. marciano 3. edwin valero!!!! hehehe!. for the record 1. robinson 2. louis 3. armstrong. notable absentees include, cerdan, leonard, ali, maywether, hopkins, pacquiao, hagler, benitez. these are the fighters that i have seen tapes/recordings of that i will never forget!!
Friday Dec 18, 2009 08:52:14 AM
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arturo:
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if i was granted to pick a fight between any two fighters in the sports history it would be Manny Pacquiao Vs Salvador Sanchez.That young fighter had the experience that no other fighter will ever have at the age that he passed away.
Friday Dec 18, 2009 05:16:15 PM
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KidTesoura:
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Eder Jofre should be in the bantamweight list!
Saturday Dec 26, 2009 10:06:11 AM
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Angie And Goody...23 Years Later
Twenty three years later after they seconded Marvin Hagler and Ray Leonard in Las Vegas, Goody Petronelli and Angelo Dundee crossed paths again. This time, it was at Foxwoods. Photo/friend of TSS "The Iceman" John Scully reports there were only pleasantries exchanged. Goody didn't debate the split decision victory enjoyed by Leonard, which to this day Hagler disputes.
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