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| Pacman has simply improved a ton in the last few years. To the point that F-Lo seems to be leaning toward Manny in a Pacquaio-Mayweather clash. |
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F-LO: I Liked Mayweather To Beat Pacquiao...Now I'm Not So Sure
By Frank Lotierzo
It's been said here since before the Pacquiao-Hatton bout that Floyd Mayweather would be the choice in a potential clash with Manny Pacquiao. In fact I remarked to a colleague and friend right before the bell for the first round between Pacquiao and Cotto that, "if Mayweather was in the other corner and about to face Pacquiao - I'd have no reservation picking Mayweather to win."
The thought behind that was Floyd Mayweather sees everything his opponent does and/or tries to do. Everybody who fights him has to adjust and change their game when they face him. But I'm not sure that's the case pertaining to Pacquiao if and when he meets Mayweather.
The word great is not thrown out here to laud any fighter who scored a sensational knockout or looked impressive in their last fight. At the same time this observer watches boxing with an open mind and with both eyes unobstructed. And that has led me to view Pacquiao-Mayweather a little differently than I did. I no longer conclude that Mayweather holds the stylistic advantage over Pacquiao that I firmly believed before his bout with Cotto.
It's no secret that if they fight Mayweather will step back and make Pacquiao lead and chase him as long as the fight lasts. And that would leave him open to Mayweather's counter left-hooks and right hands. My belief is that Floyd making Manny miss and then catching him with flush counters eventually would result in Pacquiao not coming in with such impunity. However, Pacquiao showing against Cotto just how great of a punch he takes causes me to doubt as to whether Mayweather posses any punch in his arsenal that will impede Pacquiao's aggression.
Another problem for Mayweather fighting Pacquiao is Floyd doesn't throw a lot of punches. Mayweather seldom throws two and three punches at a time. His offense is more seize-the-moment intuition, and that leads to him not throwing a lot of punches and combinations. There's no question that he's got terrific boxing genes, but he's never confronted a fighter who combines speed and two handed shocking power that comes from so many different angles, almost nonstop, like Pacquiao is capable of doing.
Yes - Mayweather usually sees everything that his opponent throws at him. And his high right hand and shoulder roll prevents much of his opponent's offense from penetrating through. Sometimes Mayweather will give his opponent a free shot or two at his body, which opens them up for his accurate and quick counters to the head and face because their hands are down.
But against Pacquiao that could backfire and draw him into a fire-fight with Pacquiao.
Mayweather's hurdle when he fights Pacquiao is Manny throws as many as 7/8 hard punches at a time. Even more troublesome for Floyd is he can get off with short straight punches inside to the head and body. Mayweather may be a defensive wizard at making his opponent miss when his back is to the ropes. But Pacquiao throws so many punches that I don't care who the fighter is, he has to retaliate back to get Pacquiao off of him. If Mayweather tries to sit back and just wait for the counter, Pacquiao will eventually get something in and force Mayweather to fight out of necessity instead of allowing him to box.
Pacquiao showed that Cotto's power didn't deter him from carrying the fight and opening up. So there's no doubt he'll be fearless going at Mayweather in trying to get him into exchanges. And if that happens Pacquiao will get through to Mayweather's chin with his quick and straight left hand. If he shakes Mayweather or causes him to hold or try to get away, Pacquiao will feed off of that and become even more aggressive. And once Pacquiao draws him out and forces him to try and fight him off, it'll be easier for him to get Mayweather in that position the deeper the fight goes.
I'd hate to have to make a pick right this moment on a Pacquiao-Mayweather bout. However, at one time I was confident Mayweather held the style advantage over Pacquiao and would win a noncontroversial decision controlling the action most of the way.
After watching Pacquiao blitz Miguel Cotto, I'm no longer certain that Mayweather has the strength, power and chin to out-box Pacquiao. And at this moment I have more questions about Mayweather than I do Pacquiao in a potential matchup between them.
Lastly, Pacquiao has the more proven chin. And that's not the same as saying Mayweather doesn't have a first-tier chin. Although I don't think anyone knows the answer to that for sure. What is known is Pacquiao will test Mayweather's chin with harder, faster and with more accurate punches than any other fighter he's ever fought.
On November 13th, 2009 I would've been willing to bet heavily on Mayweather to beat Pacquiao. As of November 19th, 2009 I can't say for sure I'd pick Mayweather to beat Pacquiao, let alone bet on him.
Frank Lotierzo can be contacted at GlovedFist@Gmail.com
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delpilar:
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i told my puertorican friend that pacman can fight and beat cotto, and that was two years ago.
today, let me tell you that li'l floyd does not have the right experience in fighting very good fighters. specially the recent bouts, li'l floyd did not have any real challenge; that will be his biggest drawback when he fights pacman. pacman will absolutely surprise li'l floyd. money will discover seeing pacman fight is not the same as fighting him inside the ring.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 06:46:46 PM
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Castro:
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I'd bet on Mayweather to beat & bust manny up...real good!
No doubt!
Just look at the fight between Mayweather & Marquez. That's exactly what will happen to manny, but worse. It's all good Frank, you don't have to give Floyd the edge. He'll just take it, make you a believer & leave all doubters with one thought in their mind. "what the hell just happen" & then the bell will ring & the fight will be over. Flurry punches work good only against someone who can't BOX. Marquez out boxed manny superbly (twice) & then got outboxed superbly by the master of them all.....Money May!
Just remember the first few rounds when Cotto was jabbing away at manny & manny's flurry couldn't do a thing. Yeah, even manny was wondering "damn - this guy is quick"!
Then unfortunately Cotto gave up & handed manny his belt. Well guess what? Mayweather won't, but he will out jab, out box & out last Manny till the end. Mayweather by UD or TKO!!
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 07:01:02 PM
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dino da vinci:
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Frank, I love reading your work, I really do. I don't believe there is a more insightful writer alive, not on this site, certainly not anywhere else. After this fight you were suppose to be able to clearly define the winner and why. Frank, after the Mayweather Jr-Marquez fight, Floyd was installed as the betting favorite and a substantial one at that. I've yet to see the adjusted line since Pac-Cotto. Do you believe this fight is a coin flip?
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 07:20:36 PM
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BisDak:
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Floyd's ribs WILL be tested.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 07:21:53 PM
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Wayne:
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Mayweather won't beat Pacquiao. I love hearing the reasons why Mayweather will win. It is quite obvious that Mayweathers style is quite well known to most Boxing Fans. Pacquiao's style is unpredictable and it works. Plus that Pacquiao is equal speed wise. Defense. Well the best defense in Boxing is offense. Another big edge for Pacquiao. Plus that of course the author of this article is not so sure. When one wants to break it all down. Well let's go one step further. To all of you who think Mayweather will win. Well let's see Mayweather make the fight. If Mayweather don't make the fight he is irrelevant. It's up to Mayweather. When Mayweather makes the fight then start talking why he wins. Up until then have a good day.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 07:24:35 PM
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Joez:
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Castro, keep dreaming. It's the only way Mayweather can defeat Pacquiao -- in dreams.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 07:27:07 PM
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boxing fan:
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different people with different thoughts, this question sure will find the right answer unless lil floyd and pacman will showdown in the square ring,only that simple. if this will happen..
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 07:36:29 PM
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jabberwock:
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So much talk about Mayweather-Marquez, as if that has any merit...if that's the case, let's compare Mayweather-DelaHoya & Pacquiao-DelaHoya; or how about Mayweather-Hatton and Pacquiao-Hatton...convincing wins by Pacquiao if u ask me.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 07:46:02 PM
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SALT lover@jabberwock:
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jabberwock, let's compare Hopkins-Joppy with Trinidad-Joppy. Hopkins beat Joppy in a UD, while Trinidad destroyed Joppy by 5th round brutal KO. Who's the better fighter between the two? Is it Trinidad cuz he beat Joppy more "convincingly"? Knocking out your opponent while I win a decision doesn't you're better than me. Man, a lot of Pacfans, very few boxing fans that know this sport. That's the sad reality about today's sport. Criticizing Floyd Mayweather Jr is NOT a smart thing to do, unless you're a promoter who's on a personal vendetta against Floyd.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 07:55:59 PM
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maximum at zero:
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Hey Castro...compared to cotto, floyd has no power...he cant knock pacman out...look at his knock out record...floyd aint a knock out puncher...the only way he will win (if he wins) is by running...
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 08:34:49 PM
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ali:
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F-Lo I agree with most of what you said but the part about Pac having a more proven chin is not true. People think mayweather hasn't been hit clean by hard punchers but he has. ODH at the end of round 9 or 10 I believe he was hit with a moster right hand and at the end of that fight he was hit with a hellva left hook. Against Corrales he was hit a couple of times with some hard clean punches. Zab hit him with some clean hard punches too I think people see the great defense but sometimes he get hit clean and when he does he takes the punches well and when he does get buzzed usually the guy he's fighting can't get another clean punch in. Pac does a good job after he get buzzed too but I think Mayweather had the edge in that department.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 08:36:21 PM
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Boxing1960:
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Mayweather have not a fought a fighter like Pacquiao. The Pacman is a one-of-a-kind fighter of this generation. He has super speed coupled with powerpunches that detonates upon impact. His simple look and size are deceiving. Pacquiao will give Mayweather problems he never yet encountered. They can study videos of pacquiao's past fights but it wont matter because he can adjust his style with his speed and power. His years of experience with his attacking style, made him developed an instinct in his punches at weird angles. It is the punches that you dont see that will hurt you more and Manny possesses that skill. Floyd's shoulder roll will be destroyed by Manny's powerpunches. Pacquiao is speed and power while Floyd is speed and not-so-much power.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 08:38:49 PM
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Fe'Roz :
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F-Lo show no hate here. Just straight talk. He, like everyone else except true-believers, now has questions about the eventual outcome of this fight.... if they fight. And that is a very big if. As in, I will believe it if I see it. Manny has a way to win big....and to change minds in a big way. Ask Miguel Cotto. Ask his diehard fans. But be patient. They are still in shock. The rest of us simply amazed. Shocked and Amazed. Sounds familiar. Now I see more scenarios than Frank has thus far articulated in this first draft at his analysis. Trust that if this fight is made F-Lo will have plenty more to say. For myself, I see a strong possibility that Floyd would stand in the pocket and trade with Manny. And why not. He is masterful when he's in close. Especially when he choses to be. I can also for now see him catching Manny open and off balance and possibly knocking him down.... if they fight. After all, Floyd has skills. But Manny is so much like Duran/Pryor in spirit, I don't think Floyd will get to dictate the fight. He is arguably more versatile than both of the two I just mentioned. His rhythm punching, footwork and hand-speed make him and unpredictable as he is dangerous. And thus more dangerous. I give Manny the edge in many categories but categories don't win fights. Fighters do. So, for now, me like many fans and most observers, see Manny beating Floyd in a Fight.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 08:45:43 PM
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barasang:
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The fight between Mayweather and Marquez is neither an accurate nor a reliable gauge to measure Pacman against Mayweather. In fact, the author simply says in effect that with the Cotto bout, Pacman has even showed us he can take solid punches and still walk through it. We did not see it before the Cotto fight. On the other hand, did we see an added arsenal from Mayweather out of the Marquez fight? Can we honestly believe that he can elude Pacman for the full 12 rounds? With Pacman's own speed, somewhere along the fight Mayweather will eat some leather, and oh boy, what leather would it be...What will happen to him if Pacman catches him flush? At least we know that if Pacman is caught flush by Mayweather, it is possible that Pacman can just walk through it.
We will never really know until they actually get it on the ring.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 08:47:04 PM
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jim:
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Joez..... you are right. Floyd can only win in a dream. Besides the fight will never happen. Floyd is damn scared to fight Manny now with what happened to Miguel Cotto. Manny will simply buldozed Floyd to hell.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 08:48:04 PM
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Fe'Roz @ Ali:
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One difference between Floyd and most other fighters is that Floyd philosophically does not believe in getting hit. He says it often and says it proudly. And only a fool would argue about the intelligence of that position. I mean, who wants to get hit. Not me, fo' sho'. but I'm not Manny. he loves it. He's like Pryor.... and if that doesn't worry you, it should. There is nothing more frightening than hitting a man with your best often and hard...and having him pound his gloves and move forward...fast. That is something Floyd has never seen. That is something we haven't seen. It is the new constantly improving Manny Pacquiao. Now I know Floyd can fight... but if you're not a little bit scared, let me be for you. Because I think he is looking at the fight of his life.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 08:54:54 PM
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edgar:
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It will be an interesting fight between Manny and Floyd. Floyd is a boxer and Manny is a fighter. Floyd looks good against Marquez and control the fight but its not a Marquez game. Marquez is trying to be offensive on that fight when he is not an offensive fighter. Thus he cannot land shots with Floyd and often look awkward when pressing. Floyd, is on his usual game. Boxing and counter punching but don't engage. Fight is over from the very first round in favor of Floyd. With Manny, I think it will be a good fight. Manny will press then Floyd will depend. There maybe an exchanges but it will boils down on who will become more hungry and ferocious after they get hit.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 09:00:30 PM
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Paulie Malignaggi: :
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I think there is something up with Manny Pacquiao. I am not going to get into it. I think people will understand what I am saying. Full blown welterweights don't take those type of punches from Miguel Cotto the way he took them with total disregard for his power nor do they hurt him with every punch they hit him with. These are full blown welterweights I am talking about. This guy is coming up in weight and doing all these things. There is something up with this guy but that's as far as I am going to go into it. Floyd Mayweather (Senior) has gotten into it a little bit. There have been other fighters who have mentioned it. I am not going to get into no controversy. I am going to leave it at that. There is something that seriously makes me feel weird about Manny Pacquiao. I am going to leave it at that.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 09:00:57 PM
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Ed:
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Floyd wins vs. Pac on points !! He will "box" not fight. Floyd has no power to KO the PACMONSTER so he'll run to win a unanimous. Floyd is a fraud, self-proclaimed best fighter. Look at his opponents and how he wins as compared to the Pacman. I hope he engages Manny so he'll get embarassed..
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 09:02:48 PM
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Anonymous user:
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mayweather doesn't have enough arsenal to dirpose manny pacquiao. pacquiao will certainly hit mayweather with high velocity punches that mayweather wouldn't be able to see where it's coming from.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 09:09:08 PM
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white america:
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I'll bet for pacman...8punch combination and a 1clean power shot from pacman and floyd is a deadman! Pac didnt even take cotto seriously.not a single bruise with dela hoya and no sweat with the hatton fight.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 09:10:02 PM
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RDB:
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To all the fans of FMayweatherJr all over the world, please just tell Floyd to fight, and make it sure that he will really fight toe-to-toe (no running event in a boxing ring, anyway), with the Pacman in the ring. Refrain from talking any nonesense. Let the fists of the Pacman and Floyd do the talking inside the boxing ring. After the fight, then and only then the whole world, including you and me, would know who the best fighter is, plain and simple!
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 09:19:52 PM
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wildrix_21:
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@paulie M. : we filipinos have more strengthening type of diet than latinos or american.. so don't be suprised if manny has a pretty good chin,or body strength etc., eastern asians aren't like whites,black or latinos... have you heard about tibetan monks?or chinese martial artists?... =) floyd senior is just plain ignorant about we eastern asians.. =)
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 09:20:48 PM
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Usahfu:
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One quick comment..........Floyd does NOT have a goo jab nor does he know how to use it . So it's not like he can pump this piston over and over followed true to someone else's form by a tremendous and surely devestating right hand. Does not know how. That to me would be the key with his speed. Doesn't know how. Pacman will eat him up because of this fact. let it marinate and holla back.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 09:23:33 PM
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pppc:
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If you think the barometer of Floyd defeating pacman is jmm-pacman fight, I think it is not relevant now a days. When jmm-pacman fight it was at 130lbs and jmm went up to 145lbs to fight floyd but floyd weight during the weigh-in is 147. Do you think that if jmm-pacman fight now at 140 or 145, jmm can dominate him? I agree to jabberwock...
But I think before we go further and discussing who will win on pacman-floyd, we should wait if floyd wants to fight pacman or just create another alibi to duck him as what he have done with mosley, cotto, margarito.
Floyd should fight cotto and let us see how he will beat cotto.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 09:27:13 PM
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Jaggernaut:
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I'd bet on Manny to beat & bust floyd up...real good! No doubt! Just look at the fight between Manny and Cotto. That's exactly what will happen to floyd, but worse. It's all good Frank, you don't have to give Manny the edge. He'll just take it & leave all doubters with one thought in their mind. "what the hell just happen" & then the bell will ring & the fight will be over. Shoulder roll work good only against someone who can't BOX. Manny out boxed Marquez superbly (twice) & then outboxed superbly the master of them all.....Cotto! Just remember the first few rounds when Manny was jabbing away at Cotto & Cotto's flurry couldn't do a thing. Yeah, even Cotto was wondering "damn - this guy is quick"! Then unfortunately as expected Cotto gave up & handed Manny his belt. Mayweather doesn't have a belt but he will be out jab, out box & out last by Manny till the end. Mayweather can back pedal and roll his shoulder all night long but he will get a serious ass whooping , the only chance his got not to get BEAT UP is to quit on his stool, just ask ODLH, Hatton, Barrera, Morales, Marquez and lately, Cotto.........nuff said!
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 09:28:50 PM
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Fe'Roz :
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The Magic Man casting aspersions about matter of which has no proof may very well find himself in a ring of which he knows even less. A court of law.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 09:29:34 PM
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cleto reyes:
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@Paulie - yeah you should feel weird that you predict Cotto is going to bust up MP. And you said Cotto hits really hard...It really feels weird that your punches are feather dusters compared to MP's and your chin is like glass...
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 09:31:31 PM
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Jaggernaut:
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I'd bet on Manny to beat & bust floyd up...real good! No doubt! Just look at the fight between Manny and Cotto. That's exactly what will happen to floyd, but worse. It's all good Frank, you don't have to give Manny the edge. He'll just take it & leave all doubters with one thought in their mind. "what the hell just happen" & then the bell will ring & the fight will be over. Shoulder roll work good only against someone who can't BOX. Manny out boxed Marquez superbly (twice) & then outboxed superbly the master of them all.....Cotto! Just remember the first few rounds when Manny was jabbing away at Cotto & Cotto's flurry couldn't do a thing. Yeah, even Cotto was wondering "damn - this guy is quick"! Then unfortunately as expected Cotto gave up & handed Manny his belt. Mayweather doesn't have a belt but he will be out jab, out box & out last by Manny till the end. Mayweather can back pedal and roll his shoulder all night long but he will get a serious whooping , the only chance his got not to get BEAT UP is to quit on his stool, just ask ODLH, Hatton, Barrera, Morales, Marquez and lately, Cotto.!
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 09:42:44 PM
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doug:
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pacman will eventually catch 'lil flyod no matter how hard he runs & hides, after that: its time for 'lil flyod to sleep.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 09:48:40 PM
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El diablo:
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Mayweather loves to fight small fighters. That's why his dad called him Little Floyd. I loved your article. You are right in your analysis. It's a 5*****star article.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 09:49:21 PM
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Ed:
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Paulie, it's called God given talent, steroids only help you recover from a hard work out, it doesn't make your chin indestructible.
When Manny fights he is fighting for the pride of his country, in his mind losing is not an option. Money is only secondary he does not want to let his countrymen down. He is so motivated, that's why he trains like he does.
So just leave it at that............
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 09:51:25 PM
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dobuef:
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after seeing pacquiao ko cotto now im a believer and im even think that floyd mayweather has no chance against pacman. i bet on mosley against pacquiao because he is big,fast and stronger than pacman.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 09:52:29 PM
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juniedv:
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WAYNE --has the best point and the most salient at this time. "To all of you who think Mayweather will win, let's see Mayweather make the fight. If Mayweather don't make the fight he is irrelevant. It's up to Mayweather. When Mayweather makes the fight then start talking why he wins. Up until then have a good day."
do not forget that mayweather has managed NOT to fight all the leading welterweights including cotto --up to now! remember also, uncle roger, upon being informed that pacquaio had (just) signed to fight cotto, said in his unguarded moment, "that pacquaio's got balls!" and then he promptly proceeded to pick cotto to win.
fear, it could be healthy or it could be self-defeating. let's hope the mayweathers do not manage to convince themselves out of this fight.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 09:54:00 PM
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YMM:
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Guys.. if you don't get what Paulie is hinting let me help you out. He thinks Pacquiao is a cyborg or some kind of a robot. There, I said it Paulie.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 09:54:41 PM
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Owefdobolyu Dammam:
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Floyd's patented shoulder roll defense had served him well in the past. But with Pacquiao, Floyd's shoulder is in danger of being dislocated.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 09:57:20 PM
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dyolens:
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Congratulations Frank Lotierzo for bagging the writer of the year award! Congratulations Fe Roz for winning the reader of the year award! It is both your writing and commenting that has kept me coming back to this site. Indeed your insights are something i would regularly look for as Manny fight his remaining fight life as i have a feeling that he intends to keep retired once he announce his retirement. All the best to you both.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 10:03:26 PM
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Ed:
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Paulie, just because you broke your hand trying to hit Cotto with your best shots, it doesn't mean that everyone will.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 10:04:21 PM
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Jasper Murdock:
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There has been one welterweight before Manny that took harder shots and he kept coming forward and that's Tony Margarito. Manny took some hard shots but honestly he may just have a chin of granite. Cotto is a hard puncher but it's not like is on the level of a Julian Jackson or Gerald McClellan knocking boxers out the ring. However if he were fighting Sugar Shane and he shook of his bombs, then I would raise some a few questions. But besides there is no proof! Why can't people look at his performance and be like damn, he is that good! And if Jr. could find some way to dominate this new and improved version of Manny, it would be a wrap. I would crown and not even mention Sugar Shane anymore! However I still wanna see all 3 of them get a crack at each other.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 10:05:34 PM
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EXBOX:
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HEY CASTRO! WAKE UP! PACQUIAO IS NOT MARQUEZ. PERIOD!
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 10:05:44 PM
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ric:
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ya i agree,paulie predicting cotto will win,then when he loose there's something about manny.,wat is that..do you think of the floyds figth as there any come as strong puncher as cotto,do you think corrales and judah(or the others) in the same level as cotto.and do you think marquez can do to pacquiao wat he did 2yrs ago at welterweight..
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 10:07:10 PM
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Ali:
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Ali you said mayweather gas a better chin then pacman. Why because he was hit by guys that aren't good at knocking out people? Watch round two of mayweather vs hatton. Hatton almost knock him out but the ropes saved mayweather. you can't compare PAC with other boxers he is different. People floyd has good defense. No! Good defense means being able to take punches. Dodging punches is a different story. the article says PAC trains fOr 4 hours. That's wrong! PAC trains from 6 o'clock in the morning( the time everybody wakes up in the phillpines) to 6 o'clock in the afternoon and he does 4 hours if sparring with castillo and others with no breaks in between. get your facts straight!!
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 10:08:54 PM
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Gil P. Acosta:
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When two elites collide, the one who has the warrior spirit prevails. We all know who has the warrior spirit between the two. Manny Pacquiao will beat Mayweather black and blue and he will be renamed pretty boy blue.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 10:10:15 PM
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cym:
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Greeting Pac haters!!! Pacman is not your ordinary fighter....he never gonna quit..he probably die on the ring but never quit...Mayweather can punch him hard.. definitely..but it doesn't matter he will keep on coming...he is energizer bunny
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 10:10:24 PM
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hed:
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@paulie - don't worry, it's understood why you felt that way about MP... usually, that's how low class boxers feel towards elite warriors like MP... equate yourself - if cotto turned your head into a balloon; and MP kinda disfigured cottos'; can u just imagine what disaster MP will do to you? - 'm pretty sure you will not have that "weird feeling" anymore...only numbness..
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 10:11:30 PM
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LC :
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Paulie...i respect you but dude...you're are MORON. Nevada Atheletics test fighters that started back 2002....they test for 34 type of steroids, ehancement growth hormones etc.....if PAC was in roids with would have already showed already.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 10:14:27 PM
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PACMAN09:
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Floyd will get knock-out and retire after the fight....
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 10:15:33 PM
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PACMAN09:
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To Paulie, stop being a mayweather sr clone...you will never be in the same level as Pacman...better prepare yourself cuz Diaz will knock you out...
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 10:18:03 PM
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karlo:
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Manny wins this fight EASILY. Look at Zab knocking down Floyd in the second round of their fight with a counter right hook. Now imagine if Manny was the one throwing that, Floyd will do the chicken dance. I'll give Floyd about 5-6 rounds to last, then get knocked out cold. He simply does not have the chin and offense to last against a proven monster in Pacquiao. But don't worry Floyd fans this fight will not happen as Floyd will come up with exorbitant demands but in truth he is just afraid
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 10:26:03 PM
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underscore:
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My Maywether's advice; Before fighting Pacquiao prove yourself that you are among the best fighter, fight Mosley first. Your talent being a boxer is behind 10 miles from Pacquiao's achivement.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 10:26:53 PM
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Jay Ari Yin:
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Many boxing experts has now seen the light! Manny Pacquiao and Master Freddie Roach have now shown the world that they can dissect an opponent and apply a game plan to take advantage of Pacquiao's talent, skill and power and expose the opponent's weaknesses and "bad" boxing habits.
Long live the Master! Long live the King!
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 10:27:45 PM
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Joobs:
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all these allegations of using enhancers is malicious and uncalled for. the different sanctioning bodies and the state itself is responsible for monitoring if fighters are using or not before they enter the ring. people throwing these accusations should be sued by the state, the sanctioning bodies. or manny pacquiao himself. Floyd sr and paulie are questioning the integrity of these sanctioning bodies and the grat state of Nevada.. all fighters get their urine and blood tested before a fight!!! PAcquiao started at 106 when he was 17.. being comfortable at 140-147 isn't unusual at age 30 because it is at this age that his body has reached its maximum potential height and weight. pacquiao was also a malnourished poor boy back then so he was probably very far from his optimal weight. as for paulie, every body knows you lost to juan diaz.. your bitter with pac because cotto destroyed you.. poor cotton candy fist malignagi.. GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD, NO ONE WANTS TO SEE YOU FIGHT!! another win for pacquiao and your envy will kill you for sure paulie.. haha
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 10:29:27 PM
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Anonymous user:
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this guy castro is either a boxing noob or a plain idiot! marquez is a thing of the past now. pacquiao will knock marquez in half a minute of the first round. wake up dude. this is no longer 130lb weight we're talking about. come out of the cave. world war I is over!
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 10:30:33 PM
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yobi:
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before you post, make sure you can defend it after the fight. dont waste your integrity. if floyd is a real fighter, he should fight all the best opponents before the fight and not returning because of what he has seen manny earning the greatness.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 10:31:43 PM
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Paulie Malignaggi:
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I was asked a question. I was giving my opinion. I think there is something up with Manny Pacquiao. Cotto fractured my face. I don't have to say if he punches hard. I am going to leave it at that
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 10:32:35 PM
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Jaggernaut:
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I'd bet on Manny to beat & bust floyd up...real good! No doubt! Just look at the fight between Manny and Cotto. That's exactly what will happen to floyd, but worse. It's all good Frank, you don't have to give Manny the edge. He'll just take it & leave all doubters with one thought in their mind. "what the hell just happen" & then the bell will ring & the fight will be over. Shoulder roll work good only against someone who can't BOX. Manny out boxed Marquez superbly (twice) & then outboxed superbly the master of them all.....Cotto! Just remember the first few rounds when Manny was jabbing away at Cotto & Cotto's flurry couldn't do a thing. Yeah, even Cotto was wondering "damn - this guy is quick"! Then unfortunately as expected Cotto gave up & handed Manny his belt. Mayweather doesn't have a belt but he will be out jab, out box & out last by Manny till the end. Mayweather can back pedal and roll his shoulder all night long but he will get a serious whooping , the only chance his got not to get BEAT UP is to quit on his stool, just ask ODLH, Hatton, Barrera, Morales, Marquez and lately, Cotto......
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 10:34:17 PM
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gochie:
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Once and for all bring on Floyd Mayweather Jr. lets see if he can withstand the Pacman's attack, no if and buts, come on Floyd we dare you to accept the challenge and prove yourself that you are not afraid of the Pacman, the Pacman will crush your defense for sure, i assure you, you will hit the canvass if you stand toe to toe with the Pacman, otherwise runnnnnnnn, runnnnnnn.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 10:36:21 PM
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bolo punch:
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manny's THE MAN and floyd knows it. many people don't give a sh_t to his no-loss record anymore because the fighters he has fought, and the fighters who fought the fighters he has fought we're all woefully beaten by manny. truth is, mayweather has never fought any notable welterweight. so how can he made no. 2 p4p? more queer, how can he demand for a higher purse?
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 10:41:59 PM
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brownsugar: just make the fight already:
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Bob Arum said that Floyd is more scared of losing his 0 that he is making millions of dollars,.. makes me wonder,.. if he pulls out of the Pacman fight with a lame excuse,.. then he will have made an enemy of brownsugar,.. the bible says,.. "see thou a fool,.. it is more hope for him,.. than a man who is wise in his own conceit",... I'll go on record by saying that Floyd could box Pacman out of his jockstrap ,. at 147,.. even if the powerful Pinoy could hit as hard as Tyson,.. but I'm getting weary of the delays,.. either fight the man or become irrelevant like Chavez Jr,... make the fight already!!!!!....and send Pacman packing his bags back to Manilla...
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 10:43:24 PM
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Isaiah:
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@Paulie. You're wrong sir. Pacquiao is simply a once in a life time fighter who we're lucky to see. If he and Mayweather fight, Floyd will lose fair and square. Don't be jealous of someone who is naturally so talented.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 10:49:49 PM
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nestor:
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To Everybody:
Pacquiao personifies the classic " Art of War " by Military Gen. Sun Tzu, that no one knows him well until the fight is over! With Cotto, Pacquaio exposes himself of his real skills, power and speed not known to many and who by underestimating him fall prey to his vaunted ring savvy. Man...believe me he's got more to show that we may never know until Mayweather forces him to. These and more makes PACMAN the real exciting thing in boxing....
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 10:54:20 PM
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adrb:
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stop wondering my friends. manny has lived a life harder than those boxers he faced. he could absorb everything they could throw at him coz he wenth through a lot of hardships 24/7 for more than 20 years of his life. that makes him stronger in will and heart than anybody. he won't mind 36minutes of punches being thrown at him. small floyd (a nobody in real man's world) could beat manny in a boxing fight but not in the heart. and that's what matters. stop talking about small floyd's greatness coz he's not. all he cares about is himself. he's just a robot not a human.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 10:54:35 PM
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balut:
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Castro n Ali................like what Mike Tyson said, " every has a plan till you get hit". Cotto, Hatton, Dela-hoya all had plan they are the bigger guys till they got hit with that sledge-hammer........Pacman beat Marquez, Barrera, Morrales, Solis, velasquez , and the hand of stone Lewabba with only one hand.....Underestimate Pacman, he will knock out Floyd jr....4-7 round, Floyd Jr will be KO period!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 10:54:56 PM
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Roland:
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Floyd is very good with his shoulder roll defense. Freddie Roach will then train Manny to hit both shoulder so that at the end, Floyd can no longer use that defense effectively . Then it's time to go for the head.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 10:59:40 PM
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Kimo Sabe Mo:
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Paulie, you are lucky you only got a fractured face from Cotto. Pacquiao would turn your face inside out and crashing every part of your cranium into bits. You're in denial. Accept the reality and stop looking for excuses. MORON!
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 11:00:20 PM
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Jun Nicolas:
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The only hurdle to a Pacquiao vs,. Mayweather fight is Mayweather himself. If you believe you are much better than Manny, prove it on the ring against Manny who already put on record he wants to fight you next. You don't win a fight against Manny with your mouth. LET YOUR FIST WALK THE TALK. Manny doesn't need to prove anyhting coz he's way above you now. But for you, get in the ring with Manny and make a real statement by defeating Manny. Until that happens, you are just second fiddle to Manny. But you put a lot of hurdles the whole world can only conclude this: YOU ARE AFRAID OF MANNY! YOU ARE A COWARD!
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 11:03:10 PM
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Fe'Roz @ Brownsugar:
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It is his moment Brownsugar. Time to step up and insist to 'his people' that the fight be made. Not discussed. Made. Otherwise, boxing moves on. So do boxing movies. How about 'The Good vs. The Bad and the Ugly' ....with Manny going South one more time to try and assassinate Margarito. With so many options, let's just hope that Floyd doesn't chose 'Leaving Las Vegas'
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 11:13:19 PM
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xavier:
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to Paulie:
you have the right to think what you want to think.
he's on white rice. it's a special kind, you wanna buy it from me? 50 bucks a pop (a cup).
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 11:15:55 PM
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xavier:
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to mayweather fans:
PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTHS ARE.
so the betting will favor fm. so i cash in! hahahahaha!
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 11:18:21 PM
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Isaiah:
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Manny's movie would be "An Officer and a Gentleman". Floyd's would be "Jackass". NUFF SAID. Floyd's time is nearly up. Either the fight is made very soon or Manny has plenty of other options.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 11:29:34 PM
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Isaiah@brownsugar:
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Sorry man, but Floyd is frozen in fear from a bad patch of weather from "Manilla Ice". More on this story as it DOESN'T develop. HA!
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 11:33:06 PM
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dennis:
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You got it right this time F -Lo i had same observations.After what pac did to Cotto and prove people wrong about power and chin,I begun to wonder if floyd has the power to hurt Manny.You hit the nail in the head about Floyds power and chin.Honestly Pac is now a known quantity compared to Floyd.Like you i have more questions or doubts about Floyd .Can he handle Pac's speed and power and the crazy angles?Remains to be seen.if Zab has the stamina of Pac,he could have won against Floyd.Pac has Zab Judah's handspeed match with better footwork.Of course Manny has KO power both hands and incredible chin and stamina which Judah lacks.I think Floyd will be easier fight for Pac compared to Cotto.I will always choose "Superior Offense Over Superior Defense" any day.Pac by KO.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 11:40:54 PM
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in touch:
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I have been saying this for a long time; there is no fighter pacquiao cannot beat (within his division, of course). He will beat Mayweather as easily as he did Cotto, maybe easier. Mayweather can't run fast enough back. The pressure will be relentless. Pacquiao comes in throwing and ducking so it won't be very easy for Mayweather to pick shots. and once he's against the ropes, Mayweather will find that the shoulder rolls are not effective against a fast, ferocious fighter who throws from all angles. A southpaw who can triple up on the left hand. Mayweather's right should will not be able to deflect those punches. This fight will be much easier for pacman. I have been saying this for a long time, but there is a legend in this sport and we are privileged to see him. His name is manny pacquiao. Enjoy it folks, don't fight it. After it's all over and his career is finished, all you doubters will say, "He was amazing. I have never seen anything like it." Don't let it go by u like a blur, catch the moment. soak it in.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 11:42:54 PM
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eric32:
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@castro
style makes fight..
two styles clashes together and the best will win and thats PBF...
everyone got a plan until they got hit...
at 1st round cotto plan dictates the fight until he got hit in the 2nd round..
back on his mind will tell him this guy got power and speed..
thats when he will get panic..
with unexperienced trainer joe santiago...
cotto never been the same in round one...
but mayweather should win this fight..
why did i say that??..
for the record im a filipino...
leonard prove that a technical boxer always beat a brawler/boxer/fighter or what ever you call that...
leonard show that against duran...
but duran isnt a pacquiao..
duran dont have that lightning speed hand..
anyway i predict this fight 12 round unanimous decision by pacquiao...
pacquiao will be the busy fighter in this fight...
the judges will see that...
and remember PBF got problems with southpaw like zab judah and corrales....
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 11:45:27 PM
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Fe'Roz @ Isaiah:
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Breaking News. Ellerbe now says if the fight with Manny cannot be made, they would target Mosely, assuming he gets past Berto. If that isn't funny at least, with Shane finally getting what he wants, it has a kind of poetry and justice to it. But not after some verbal hijinks that only Floyd could avoid seeing the irony in. They are now saying that yes, maybe Manny's PPV numbers are higher... but that he doesn't care. That "Numbers don't lie. People do". He got that much right! When Floyd was the PPV darling (for a month), he said Floyd deserved the lion's share no matter who they met. Now that numbers don't lie.... it looks like Floyd's camp might have. And to add injury to insult, he now claims that Manny's numbers are due to Cotto being the better 'dance partner". Well no shit Sherlock....I mean Leonard. You should have known that .....and should/could have fought him first. Oh, but your man is a businessman. I forgot. What I did not forget is that you yourself 'checked' your own 'king'. Sweet.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 11:47:57 PM
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John Bryksa:
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I salute Mayweather for his great defensive skills but it was never been tested with a great offensive skills that Pacquiao have.
Pacquiao can take Mayweather punches for sure. Mayweather doesn't have that big punch. So Manny is not worried at all to be hit.
But can Mayweather take Pacquiao's punches.
Can Mayweather cover up for 12 rounds with flurry of punches?
Pacquiao out-landed Cotto, 276-to-93, in power-punches.
Can Mayweather cover up his ass with so many power punches? I don't think so.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 11:57:41 PM
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boyarate:
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yes, i do believe that is all about testing your abilities. pacquiao has shown a lot of his abilities while mayweather can be argued to have only relied entirely on his skill, technique and defense. pacquiao has shown so much more such as punch variety, footwork (both in offense and defense), power, hand speed, toughness (mental and physical), combinations, ring generalship (controlling fight tempo)... etc etc. as far as im concerned, mayweather when faced with similar abilities by his opponents, only managed split decisions. pacquiao can carry those abilities throughout the 12 rounds. oh, pacquiao can be very unpredictable too... so watch out mayweather..
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 11:59:03 PM
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boyarate:
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mayweather can only take the fight with pacquiao. no demands whatsover should be taken from him. sorry to say but he did it to himself. if he doesnt take the fight, he'll be labeled as a coward, and in no means "great". if he tries to get a "bigger piece of the pie", pacquiao can just look for somebody else with no ill effect for him, coz its not his fault mayweather's a deack. anything he does to gain advantage in negotiation will be a point against him. so what to do what to do? just accept pacquiao's offer and fight. that is if your who you say you are. who's stupid now mayweather? you. thats for trying to scheme your way to greatness. i hope if time comes that mosley will pick to fight pacquiao or mayweather, he'll pick pacquiao to fight. just leave this mayweather guy out like he didnt even exist.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 12:09:18 AM
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Wacky Jabber @ dino da vinci:
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betting odds have changed as early as 3 days ago. it is now 7 to 5 for pacquiao to win. just google it.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 12:09:39 AM
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doubletangoromeo:
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for sure mayweather is a genius when it comes to a holding action...i.e. but the pacmans speed is the unknown equation...and what about his ribs? could they absorb the punch coming from the manila ice? i'd sure want to ask him that, coz who knows, we have to explore all avenues of lies lil floyd is gonna spin.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 12:10:01 AM
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MisterLee:
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@ paulie... i'm on your boat since i saw the cotto fight and since i watched the ndou fight this year... don't lose me as a fan man... i stick up for you in this TSSU... but if you continue with false allegations with no backdrops, you're gonna lose me man. that's all i'm gonna say. i think you box beautifully, that you can turn and jab, dip and counter and do all these wonderful things... i stood up for you before and after the diaz fight, but i'm gonna leave if ya keep talkin'. Keep the talk in the ring please! go and outbox diaz next month! With regards to scarety boy floyd: almost check mate!!! Scareweather is on the run, once he finds out everyone's on pacquiao team is serious, he's on the run!
Friday Nov 20, 2009 12:16:29 AM
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Radam G - 2 da mountain top:
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Wow! Paulie, you are amazing. Steroids don't help people to take punches. Just ask Fernando Vargas. He was PUMPED full of steroids, but got knock out by Big Money Oscar De la Hoya. What about Tony Morrison. Steroids didn't stop the knockout punches of Ray "Merciless" Mercer from knocking him out. So quit hating. Manny is on Pinoy steroids -- Good FILIPINO FOOD, WATER and DEODORANT. And he has a "MASTER" Top Notch Trainer who has his BACK. Freddie "NO JOKE COACH" Roach is like a great field marshal or general. Hannibal The Great has nothing on him. Team PacMan would be on Family Mayweather like those elephants that Hannibal marched over some mountains with. It is all about taking pugilists where they have been. Pera Pac would take Money May to the mountain top under some eagles nests and order the eagles to $hit on Mayweather's head while he knocks the $hit out of him, lmao! Now, how do you like that forecast? Holla!
Friday Nov 20, 2009 12:17:56 AM
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Fe'Roz @ Mister Lee:
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Speaking of punches in bunches, I'm placing your name in nomination for next year ROTY. With you rhythm and volume, you made everyone's top ten in your rookie year. Now with EM in your corner, stick to the strategy (or subject) and you should nab a trinket very soon. But beware. Brownsugar and #1 Pacsage are right there at the top. And this season's prospects are looking to land shots and get some themselves . So stay focused.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 12:36:04 AM
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dtfernando:
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Mayweather's lifelong desire to pick only the boxers who cannot hurt him will come back to haunt -- and hunt - him. Let's check out some facts too: (1) His skeletal and muscular framework is actually inferior to that of Cotto, and there's no way that he can absorb more lethal blows than Cotto. That his face has never been punched very hard and very often will lead to a very cowardly retreat for him that will be far worse than that of Cotto when the Pacman brings on the rain. Let's admit it no one -- not even probably his neighbors -- would accuse Mayweather of being courageous. (2) There is no way that lots of Pacquiao's hard punches will land on him. As any of his opponents can testify, even just half of what Pacquiao belts out against them would constitute considerable punishment. Did I forget to say that Pacquiao also happens to have accurate, well-timed and spring-loaded punches? (3) There are also psychic contributions in punching. There are too many seated fans who will want to see Mayweather's mouth punched out of his face. That kind of rah-rah and chi energy will be absorbed enthusiastically by the furious fists of Pacquiao. (4) There are great punch avoiders who can easily copy Mayweather's style and therefore serve as excellent sparring partners for Pacquiao. The sheer irregularity of Pacman's punching angles, manic (or perhaps mannyc???) two-handed volume punching, and lunging-punch-optimized footwork of Pacquiao is alien to 99.99 percent of boxers. There is no way that Mayweather can get Pacquiao clones needed for excellence in preparation. This was exactly the same FATAL preparation problem met by de la Hoya, Hatton and Cotto. (5) Pacquiao also runs quickly and cannot be outdistanced by Mayweather fast enough. Worse of all there is no mortar- or grenade-class explosive in Mayweather's punch arsenal to dissuade Pacquiao from simply absorbing Mayweather's featherweight punches and land his semtex-class power shots to shred Mayweather's face.
If it is any consolation, the pay from the match will be fantabulous, and therefore there will be enough hundred dollar bills to: cushion Mayweather's body inside his coffin after Pacquiao puts him away for good; pay for entrance through the river Styx of Hades; and keep Mayweather busy for years of hold'em poker with Beelzeebub himself.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 12:39:27 AM
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MisterLee:
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Yo yo... Fe'roz the Pharah, i dunno if i can accept that kind of honor, but i hope i surely can soon comment on your articles in this TSSU. Being on board of TSSU staff is like the 1984 US olympic boxing squad. Haha... but yeah, toomuch good stuff going on in this TSSU, I gonna keep posting. I got the roast and #1 pacsage as two of my faves. Radam is funny as usual! He told Paulie! And in this universe, we talkin' freddie, not buddy "the towel" mcgirt... shyeeet!!!
Friday Nov 20, 2009 12:41:33 AM
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ron guiller:
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I just cant see how mayweather can hurt pacquiao, zab judah himself said that cotto's punches were way way better than mayweather's, zab judah gave everything he got to cotto but in the end drained himself and got knocked out, something mayweather couldnt do to judah. ask judah who he thinks will win if pacquiao and mayweather ever meet in the ring.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 12:44:59 AM
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Matthias Jensen:
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Beautiful objective article.. congratulations from Copenhagen
Friday Nov 20, 2009 12:51:04 AM
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tj:
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I agree Mayweather is great against ordinary fighter. The basic upright one, two combination type. Pacquiao is not ordinary. He is so awkardly effective. He throws punches in the unordinary position. I don't think this fight will happen, Mayweather won't have the balls to do it. But if he did, Pacquiao will catch up to him and knock him out. It'll be an easier fight for Pacman than the Cotto fight...Mayweather, believe me people, he has no chance. Why do you think Floyd senior is very reluctant to have his son fight him..
Friday Nov 20, 2009 12:57:17 AM
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Caveman Mister Lee:
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Floyd doesn't even deserve # 2 p4p fighter ... i mean he's seen as the 3rd best welter weight in the world, next to 1.) pacquiao, and 2.) mosley in ring hagazine. However.... he didn't even beat a welterweight, shane mosley could have whooped marquez, so could cotto, and would they be #2 fighter in the world? No! mayweather has no belt, has not beaten a real welter in 2-3 years... (hatton doesn't counter, sorry!), and is not even set to fight for a belt, and we're supposed to believe that floyd ranks just behind mosley in welterweight division and in front of miguel cotto? Such full of crap. That's why i never liked ring crapazine, they even still have margarito on the list in front of berto! a disgraced fighter who hasn't stepped in a ring in 11 months as #6 welter in the world, tho i like clottey being #5, yep. Ring nagazine sucks! Tss rules!
Friday Nov 20, 2009 01:04:31 AM
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Caveman does a flea dance...:
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So why is pacquiao #1 welter in the world for beating the 3rd best welter in the world? I mean mosley beat the #1 welter in the world, and he deserved his throne. Its not like he dind't want to fight the number two which was mayweather or cotto, and now he's not on the throne, why? Such full of Shiz.. Pac is the ring champ at jr. welter and the #1 welter in the world, it's like popular fighters get the extra boost... may beats marq and he gets #2 fighter in world, pacquiao beats number 3 and it makes him number 1. Such full of shiz. Ring gagazine should just close down, it's not a bible of boxing, it's a freaki'n business with lucrative politics and $$ in mind. What a shame! Holler!
Friday Nov 20, 2009 01:13:45 AM
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Heatman:
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First thing first, make Pacquiao-Mayweather fight happen. And if it happens, Mayweather is no match. Even if Sr & Uncle Mayweathers combined, 4 rounds Jr, 4 rounds Sr & 4 rounds for Uncle. Pacman would still beat their ass, Guaranteed.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 01:48:51 AM
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senen dizon:
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it is true, what we saw on the fight between pacquiao and cotto is the versatility of manny, the only thing that mayweather have is the 40-0 record and to him (in his fantasy) he's the greatest..Ali,Sugar Ray Leonard,Duran,Hagler these boxer are all greats and they have losses yet they are all Hall of Famers and at one point of thier careers they have a great fight that can be remebered. But for Floyd Jr., i can't think of one? He knock out Hatton in 9 (Hatton Moves up in weight to faced him) Manny do it in 2 (it is Manny who moved up in weight), Split decision with Oscar, Manny makes him surrendered. I wish the fight Mayweather-Pacquiao will happen, to prove who is the best!
Friday Nov 20, 2009 02:07:35 AM
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galengco:
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Talk about maywether v JMM-yeah, it is perfect. 12-0. How about Pacquiao against Diaz, dela Hoya and Hatton? It was a virtouso performace! A perfect 19-0 for three consecutive fights that all ended in either KO or TKO
Friday Nov 20, 2009 02:50:30 AM
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dominicbuilder:
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Hahaha... Welcome to the club Mr Frank Lotierzo!...
Friday Nov 20, 2009 03:11:29 AM
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jazp:
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Great analysis, the best so far.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 03:39:12 AM
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Donnie @ PAULIE:
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COTTO FRACTURED UR FACE BECAUSE it is not made to get hit....& UR NOT PACMAN so dont expect that after PAC got hit by COTTO he will fractured his face like you!DAMN YOUR CHIN IS WEAK like ur BRAIN!
Friday Nov 20, 2009 04:03:34 AM
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hernando gotico:
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Too many talks re- pacman/pbf fight! Let pbf fight mc and the questions/ speculations will be answered. No doubt!!!
Friday Nov 20, 2009 04:10:03 AM
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KenKoy:
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This post is in response to a.k.a. CASTRO who just posted a non-sense opinion. Castro will remember this day and eat his words comes fight night after Manny & Floyd jr engaged in the squared ring next year. It is inevitable the two fighters will square off anytime next spring. CASTRO, i BOOKMARKED this page just to remind you after the dust is over next year. MANNY is in different league today. Never compare the past in the present situation. You will realize what i mean next year, that is for sure.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 04:24:12 AM
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MISMATCH:
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a pacquiao vs mayweather is a mismatch. 1. mayweather doesn’t punch hard for a welterweight as what we have seen against a non welter marquez. 2.mayweather have a problem against southpaws. we have seen it against judah. the only problem is that judah doesn’t have a lot of punching combination compared to the pacman. 3. He has not fought a true welterweight for so long. 4. He has a fragile body the reason why he uses a bigger gloves. which reduces his punching power too, 5. pacman has beaten dela hoya and hatton better than what floyd did. 6. pacman never stops on improving, 7. The better trainer. 8. floyd has never faced a pacquiao level of opponent before.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 04:39:50 AM
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boyarate @ caveman:
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pacquiao already rank 1st, so why will his ranking become lower after beating cotto? mayweather on the otherhand, was not even listed prior to the fight with marquez due to inactivity. he only got 2nd spot because of the theory of his amazing skill, which i think shouldnt be given as much merit as people who prove their abilities. rather than focusing on theoretical abilities such as what floyd has today (because it can be argued that all he has is amazing technique and talent and nothing else really), i think the ranking should really be made based on facts and proven abilities.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 05:52:41 AM
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GOAT:
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Man, this writer really hates PBF. Every article he writes is disparaging to PBF. He probably gets aroused looking at PBF's picture or something because every article he writes either mentions or is about PBF. I don't care what reasons he gives for Pac beating PBF because they are going to fight and neither Roach, Arum, Roger, or Floyd Sr. can fight for their fighters. It will be PBF in one corner and Pac in the other corner and the best fighter will win (PBF).
Friday Nov 20, 2009 06:24:55 AM
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GEORGE:
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Floyd is a very good fighter, no question with that. He can bet Mosley, Cotto and even Williams through points, I really believed that. The only problem with this guy is, he doesn't have the heart to face the reality and the consequences of being in there with these guys. Despite his record of 40 pro fights, he's still not ready to see and taste his own blood and walk through the valley of death. Whereas on Manny, he got through it for so many times already. He's ready to kill and be killed, there will be only one man left standing, that's his philosophy in boxing.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 06:52:14 AM
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RED:
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Manny certainly has the tools to beat Floyd. In fact, not only does he have the tools but he has those tools in spades. He also has the good will of most boxing fans, whether casual or hardcore, which makes him at least the public’s favorite. He certainly is my favorite. However, I do want to caution fans (as well as boxing writers and commentators) not to succumb to the principle of recency. The recency effect is a cognitive bias that results from disproportionate reliance on recent observations. Felix Trinidad classically exemplifies the influence of recency in fight fans and writers alike. After his total demolition of William Joppy, the overwhelming majority of fans (72% according to The Ring Magazine) and writers (22 out of the 30 interviewed by The Ring) chose Tito to defeat Bernard Hopkins. Indeed, not simply to defeat him, but to stop him. Tito looked unstoppable after Joppy. The predictable “bring on” chants came from all sides. Bring on Bernard. Bring on Roy Jones. Bring on King Kong. After the 7th round of the fight it was obvious that recency had claimed yet another group of victims; Tito included. Manny’s skills in the ring are as good as everyone has claimed them to be. His personality outside the ring is equally as good. Floyd Mayweather, in the other hand, maybe many things but he’s not a dumb man either inside or outside the ring. He’s obviously burning with jealousy after Manny’s latest triumph. He’ll come in intent on raining on Manny’s parade. He’ll also come in as the anti-Cotto, both inside and outside the ring. He won’t be as humble as Miguel. He also won’t be as slow. He won’t be as respectful as Miguel. He also won’t be as one dimensional. Ironically, Floyd is hoping everyone is affected by the recency effect. In his mind, his last fight allowed him to easily roll over a man that gave Manny fits. Remember that, says Floyd (and his fans). Who knows? Maybe it’ll be Floyd the one regretting falling to the recency principle after all.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 07:22:07 AM
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RobertoDuranfan:
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Roach has one simple answer to floyds shoulder roll defense "then we'll pound floyds shoulder until it detaches from his own body"
although i admire floyds shoulder roll very much but with pacquiao i just dont see that kind of defense to his advantage..pacquiao will unleash hundreds of smart bombs while mayweather will counter manny with a german lagger.and if the fight will really happen i dont think mayweather still got the confidence going in to the fight upon seeing mannys mesmerizing performance against cotto...
i think the fight will just be another duran-leonard 1 unless floyd can psyche manny during the fight by showboating and running around the squared circle forcing manny to lose his gameplan..
much love from Brazil,
Friday Nov 20, 2009 07:25:54 AM
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Duran/Leonard IV:
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PacMan is hot right now. He thoroughly beat a damn good Welterweight. Matter of factly, I pick him right now to walk down Floyd. Funny thing though, Pac can't handle two things: 1-Jab 2-Movement. Cotto was effective jabbing Pac and Marquez was successful jabbing Pac. Cotto, beat to all heck, was on his toes and jabbing Pac effectively. Marquez moved jabbed and made Pac a bit awkward. Now, Pacman is a completely different fighter than he was back then (much better). He just hasn't found a way to overcome those 2 things, yet. As far as Money May? He has the movement, but he is just missing the..Wait, Money May was throwing a damn jab in the Marquez sparring session. Practice? Practice? was that Practice? Jab, Jab, left hook, right down the middle, and move. It will be boring!! Wake me up when they announce the Mosley/Mayweather fight
Friday Nov 20, 2009 08:13:24 AM
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poklong:
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No!!!
Wake up people, just watch again Pac-Cotto, how can you say floyd can trade punches with Pacman?
Your crazy if you believe that. Look at the round where Pacman throws punches in bunches like i count it 8 shots, Cotto tries to look for counter and trade punches too, but he cant, because the interval of the punches is 0.3 sec or less. So he cant see.
Cant you see the uppercut that Knock Cotto down? He didnt see that!
So you guys will lose you $$$$ when you bet to Floyd.
Just a hint, pacquiao is the hottest boxer today, how can you bet against him?
Imagine If your betting against him from Morales 2 until now, how much $$$$$ you have lost? lol!
isnmt that absurd.?
Friday Nov 20, 2009 08:18:45 AM
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Anonymous user:
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I agree with you,Floyd sr. told jr. not to fight Pacman for some obvious reason that he believed Pacman had something else illegal, but that is a flimsy excuse,Floyd sr. very well knew that his son will be exposed by Pacquiao,may be he was trembling when he saw Cotto being pumelled by Pacquiao and he could'nt imagine his son in that sitaution,much more Cotto said that he could'nt see the punch coming,if floyd jr. has four eyes I believe he can see all the punches of pacquiao coming at him if they ever fight,There is no amount of money hbo will put that money May will agree to fight Pacquiao,he is scared of losing his zero record and losing those people who believe in him that he was the greatest,this is not basketball that the defensive team usually wins this is gladiatorial sport in a modern age that who has a warrior mentality usually wins and Floyd jr. does'nt have.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 08:20:57 AM
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RED:
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Manny certainly has the tools to beat Floyd. In fact, not only does he have the tools but he has those tools in spades. He also has the good will of most boxing fans, whether casual or hardcore, which makes him at least the public’s favorite. He certainly is my favorite. However, I do want to caution fans (as well as boxing writers and commentators) not to succumb to the principle of recency. The recency effect is a cognitive bias that results from disproportionate reliance on recent observations. Felix Trinidad classically exemplifies the influence of recency in fight fans and writers alike. After his total demolition of William Joppy, the overwhelming majority of fans (72% according to The Ring Magazine) and writers (22 out of the 30 interviewed by The Ring) chose Tito to defeat Bernard Hopkins. Indeed, not simply to defeat him, but to stop him. Tito looked unstoppable after Joppy. The predictable “bring on” chants came from all sides. Bring on Bernard. Bring on Roy Jones. Bring on King Kong. After the 7th round of the fight it was obvious that recency had claimed yet another group of victims; Tito included. Manny’s skills in the ring are as good as everyone has claimed them to be. His personality outside the ring is equally as good. Floyd Mayweather, in the other hand, maybe many things but he’s not a dumb man either inside or outside the ring. He’s obviously burning with jealousy after Manny’s latest triumph. He’ll come in intent on raining on Manny’s parade. He’ll also come in as the anti-Cotto, both inside and outside the ring. He won’t be as humble as Miguel. He also won’t be as slow. He won’t be as respectful as Miguel. He also won’t be as one dimensional. Ironically, Floyd is hoping everyone is affected by the recency effect. In his mind, his last fight allowed him to easily roll over a man that gave Manny fits. Remember that, says Floyd (and his fans). Who knows? Maybe it’ll be Floyd the one regretting falling to the recency principle after all.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 08:22:33 AM
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mikey:
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I agree with you,Floyd sr. told jr. not to fight Pacman for some obvious reason that he believed Pacman had something else illegal, but that is a flimsy excuse,Floyd sr. very well knew that his son will be exposed by Pacquiao,may be he was trembling when he saw Cotto being pumelled by Pacquiao and he could'nt imagine his son in that sitaution,much more Cotto said that he could'nt see the punch coming,if floyd jr. has four eyes I believe he can see all the punches of pacquiao coming at him if they ever fight,There is no amount of money hbo will put that money May will agree to fight Pacquiao,he is scared of losing his zero record and losing those people who believe in him that he was the greatest,this is not basketball that the defensive team usually wins this is gladiatorial sport in a modern age that who has a warrior mentality usually wins and Floyd jr. does'nt have.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 08:22:56 AM
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Matthew:
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I would still lean toward Mayweather in this potential matchup, but I think it will be a lot closer than I thought it would be before last Saturday. The one thing I will criticize about Pacquiao's performance against Cotto is that he didn't do a particularly good job of cutting the ring off once Cotto went into survival mode. That isn't to say Roach can't get him to improve that in the interim (he's improved every other area of his game in the last few years), but I would certainly expect Mayweather to incorporate a lot more movement than he has recently. You really have to admire and respect Mayweather's ring IQ; he may be the most intelligent fighter to come along since Pernell Whitaker or even Ray Leonard. One of the best things about this potential matchup is that each fighter is facing in the other something that neither has seen before. I still lean toward Mayweather by close decision, but Pacquiao has certainly proven me wrong before.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 08:51:18 AM
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migo:
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To the RING body: (just a suggestion)..do not put any fighter in the pound for pound list if that fighter is notorious of ducking a fight against a worhty opponent on his division. Only the fighter who has the credentials of fighting the very best has the right to be in that distiction!
with this i think big mouth floyd has a lot to prove to the world that indeed once he is the best pound for pound fighter.
No more cherry picking..no more blabbering..just fight the very best and earn the respect of evryone in the boxing world.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 08:58:13 AM
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Cox's Corner:
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To Ed: It doesn't matter if Mayweather tries to "box" Pacquiao. Many people just do not realize that some guys are too strong to box. Frazier was at his best against boxing stylists because he gave them no room to breathe and took away their space and the only choice was to fight him. You either have to have the punch to keep the aggressor off (like Foreman vs Frazier) or be able to fire enough punches to keep them off (like Ali was able to do at times but not all the time). Mayweather is a fighter who will want to step back and counter but he does not throw a lot of punches. So unless he has the punch to really hurt and discourage Pacquiao (which he doesnt) he will be forced to fight. That is why this is a very interesting match up now.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 09:02:55 AM
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ali @ the fake Ali :
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YOUR A FU**ING IDIOT.... TSS reader he said good defense is being able to take punches who ever runs this site get this guy off of here he know nothing about boxing......I won't waste any more time with this dummy GO TO ANOTHER BOXING SITE TSS IS FOR PEOPLE WHO KNOW ABOUT BOXING.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 09:29:22 AM
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The Saint:
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@Castrated: Not sure what fight you were watching, but Cotto "jabbing away" at Pacquiao for "the first few rounds" must have happened in your imagination. Cotto won the first round, that's pretty much it. I don't know what "first few rounds" mean to you but Cotto began to take a beating from the second round on. Also, you need to work on your mind-reading powers. Manny was actually thinking "Man, Cotto's head is bouncing really fast from my punches." It's funny how desperate Pacquiao haters like yourself have become. Let's accuse Pacquiao of using some sort of steroid, shall we? I hope you enjoy the fantasy fight in your head between Pacquiao and Mayweather. You can argue till you turn blue on what you think Mayweather will do to Pacquiao, if it helps you sleep better at night. But real boxing fans only care to see what actually happens in the ring. Mayweather fans give Mayweather credit on things that they imagine he WOULD do. You can savor Mayweather's highlight reels over the "elite" welters like Carlos Baldomir and Arturo Gatti, that's all you'll ever have.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 09:41:44 AM
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ali @ FeRoz:
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Scared is a little strong....worried is a better word for how Mayweather might be felling but I think Pac & Fredie Roach is too. Pac hasn't face anyone like Mayweather and Mayweather has never face anyone like Pac. Yeah your right a guy that gets hit and keeps on coming can be scary if you are not in shape and don't know what your doing but Mayweather does. One thing about coming in against Mayweather is you can run into somethen ask Hatton you don't need a KO punch if somebody is ruunning into your punches. Mayweather is a better inside fighter then Pac to so when ever there on the inside Mayweather has the advantage.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 09:41:45 AM
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Anony @ TSS:
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I FEEL LIKE A BAD BOY RETURNING TO SCHOOL... but what can I say? Pacquiao really screwed our dreams for positioning our country once again at the top of boxing. It happened in the past with Salvador Sánchez / Wilfredo Gomez and that bitter defeat keeps haunting us forever. So.. don't expect me to be nice and "oh well, what the heck" because I'm not in that mood. What gives me some kind of relief is that Manny has to be considered among the top 5 or 10 ever so I guess that play some kind of "relief" after Cotto's defeat. Another thing that gives some relief is that Miguel did work hard and came to the fight in his best shape ever so there is no reason to believe he didn't give 100% as always. So that redeems him as an athlete. Another thing that kind of puts me at ease is the fact that it was Pacquiao and NOT MAYWEATHER who defeated Cotto so the "evil one" didn't defeat "the righteous one"... and that's Pacman issue to resolve right now. So... I haven't read any comments after the fight and I'm sure many people had criticize Cotto or the corner or whatever.... I really don't care... that is in the past right now. I guess all this drama could resolve in the future but Cotto's career will become harder as the only thing that can bring him to the top again is beating Margarito and if Pacquiao looses to Mayweather. That could bring the opportunity to fight and beat Mayweather but I doubt he will accept Cotto's challenge. That's very speculative (since Floyd don't fight welterweights) but I really believe Miguel deserves the top spot after everything he has gone through. In the meantime I won't blame Pacquiao or rain on his parade, he really deserves the spotlight. It's just that I'm hurt.. badly. But boxing continues and I love TSS... what can I do????
Friday Nov 20, 2009 09:55:20 AM
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The Saint:
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@ali: I agree with you about Pacquiao walking straight into a punch that he doesn't see from Mayweather. Mayweather doesn't hit hard, at all, but his quickness and accurate counter punching is what makes him dangerous, and it's the punch that you don't see that knocks you out. Here's what I feel about a Pacquiao-Mayweather fight. I think that Mayweather is a bad matchup for Pac. Not only does Mayweather have the right style to beat Pacquiao, he's also the best at that style. But I also believe that Pacquiao is a bad matchup for Mayweather as Pacquiao has the perfect style and physical tools to beat Mayweather. It's a bad matchup for both of them, but a great matchup for the fans!
Friday Nov 20, 2009 09:56:26 AM
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#1 PacFan "Pacquiao #3 on ATG list":
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@Anony, I stated on a couple of articles before this that I hope we don't lose honorable readers such as yourself and Don who are hardcore Cotto fans. No disrespect was aimed towards you just the ones who predicted with their cojones and not with their brains.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 10:28:26 AM
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Fe'Roz @ Ali:
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Good to hear from you my brother. I hope that you noted that I am still a great admirer of Floyd's skills and his ability to fight in ways that most commentators seem to be overlooking. That is his ability to stand in the pockket and trade ...when he wants to. He can trade standing still and not get hit flush but virtually any opponent, but Manny is no ordinary opponent. As Pavlik said in Countdown before the fight: "manny is a happey fighter" He loves combat. He wire take in order to give. In that way he is much more like Ali than many remember. My respect for Ali increased with vitually every fight. As a young champ he was just plain beautiful to watch. But as a man, he showed qualities that made you in awe. As Joe Frazier said after their death match in Manila: "Lawdy, Lawdy, He's the Greatest". I believe that is essentially what Miguel Cotto was saying after the fight. Floyd has the skills but the intangible is Manny's will. Not only to trade and throw with speed and danger but to learn and to grow. As his body grows, so does his power. And speed. Forget his height. He has more weight in this legs than most welters above their waist. He powers off of them with a rythym and dynamism that is unparralled in boxing today....and maybe ever. That comes from genes and the hardest work ethic bar none. He enjoys pain and doesn't mind the sight of his own blood. He can be beat for sure. he hs flaws. His "O" can open him to counters. In fact, I said it probably will. But the one thing I know...and i believe you do as well.....is that Floyd, like Alexis Arguello, Meldrick Taylor, and Sugar Ray Leonard found out when they faced a fierce and determined Pryor, JCC, and Duran respectively....will be in a fight like no other with a fighter all but ready to die doing what he loves best. Lastly, for the record, I loved Alexis , Meldrick and Sugar Ray ...as I did Ali. But I felt nervous and bad for them when they took those beatings. Think Manny, this Frazier, think Pryor think JCC, think Duran. Just food for thought.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 10:33:34 AM
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boyarate:
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best offense is offense. best defense is offense.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 10:39:23 AM
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ali @ The Saint:
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Yeah people think Pac is just going to steam roll Mayweather it's not going to happen and Mayweather is not going to just domiate Pac. Mayweather defense is not as good with southpaw as it is with right handed fighters. Pac has problem with counter punchers and boxer that move and use angles its going to be a great fight and electricity in the air is going to be through the roof.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 10:41:49 AM
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Fe'Roz @ anony:
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In the winter of 1973, on a cold winter night, I drove a dangerous and slippery 200 miles to from Penn State to Pittsburgh with a car full of my homeboys from Philly to see our warrior, Smokin' Joe Frazier take on George Foreman in Kingston, Jamaica. We went to watch on closed-circuit TV at a place called the Syrian Mosque. The technology was iffy at best and when it finally worked, Joe was being stared down by Big George and the fight was ready to start. I don't have to tell you how bad I felt driving home.....nor how long it took to get over. It hurts. But I'm still here....and I'm glad you are as well.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 10:52:29 AM
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Tim Bradly:
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Floyd is virtually what sweet science is all about...what technical skill should be...BUT..Manny..gotta admit..is something beyond boxing..its simple...if them would fight soon....lay your questions on floyd,lay your questions on manny..are there any questions that we are in doubt against manny that hasnt been answered...NONE..are there any questions that we are in doubt against floyd that hasnt been answered...MANY...and MANNY to come!i give respect for both fighters but i think Paulie just wont believe what he saw...stop laying the crap...so are we questioning NSAC's credibility???for how many fights now with manny?c'mon..you know we cant get pass through it before a fight..manny will give floyd the fight of his life.even castillo said it himself...at his prime he was robbed off a victory from floyd and having been there with manny..he is for sure that manny would break him apart!
Friday Nov 20, 2009 11:29:57 AM
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MiserLee @ boyarate:
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Yo blind pac lover: "pacquiao already rank 1st, so why will his ranking become lower after beating cotto?" So let's look at mosley's ratings: "Country: USA (Las Vegas, Nevada)
Record: 46-5-0 (39 KOs)
Ranking: This Week: #2 | Last Week: #1 | Weeks On List: 145
Titles: WBA" Mosley's been #1 welter weight for 145 weeks straight since Janurary.... Pacquiao DID NOT beat the Number 1 welterweight in the world which was mosley... if he beat number 3, which was cotto, he should be number 3 rating. Boyarate, p4p listings, and weight divisions are DIFFERENT.... marquez is not ranked as a welterweight, he's ranked number 1 as a lightweight, and ranked about 5th in the p4p listings (Donaire is right behind him, amazing huh? Finally! he gets his recogniion!). So yeah, manny IS the Jr. welter RING champ, but NOT the welterweight ranked #1 IMO. Pc!
Friday Nov 20, 2009 11:33:40 AM
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MisterLee:
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@ Anony, yo brother! quite amazing, this site has been quite clean of cotto bashing. Everyone, even the strong floyd fans... and some fence sitters totally gave pacquiao 100% for the win. We been singing his praises and his accomplishments, and a few floyd fans, actually ONLY one (#1 scarefan) tried to take away from Cotto, but i owned him pointing him to my pre-planned excuse made for cotto (check prediciton page michael woods.. i said pple will say cotto was "pre made for pac" or "cotto was shot" etc.)... i did the same thing for mosley marg too (check the round by round prediction from Janurary. You're always welcome back in the TSSU. Also, you need catching up on the F-lo writa' articles... the guy is on a role and on fire,and the new Rob Maldanich articles ... the guy can write like Kobe can ball! Holler! we all eat crow at some point brother.. so keep marching... on.. pc!
Friday Nov 20, 2009 11:41:31 AM
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Frank Z:
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I think pac vs. mayweather is gonna be similar to pac vs. marquez again. pacquiao's improving and growing but mayweather is a bigger slicker marquez. he also won't allow pac to hit him as much as marquez cause as good as marquez is.... he doens't move his head. mayweather will look to take away the thing pacquiao shows to be his strong suit on the night, and then bait pacquiao into a lead that mayweather wants him to throw. that being said pacquiao's movement, ability to move to spots on the canvas, and circle away after a combination will give mayweather trouble and probably force him to be more physical than he wants to to make pacquiao stay where he wants him to, but a couple of things about mayweather that pacquiao has not yet faced: he's very defensively oriented with good feel and vision, and he's very good at fighting on the inside. ricky hatton contrary to popular belief wasn't a good inside fighter, dude just likes to maul and throw guys around. floyd can sneak little sharp uppercuts on the inside and throw 4-5 hook combos to the body and head. at this point, it'll be floyd's adaptibility vs. pac's ability to implement a gameplan. trash-talk galore on the 24 7 also.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 11:44:47 AM
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Eastar:
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I heard Pacgirl/Coocho only did 1.25million PPV. So that's only 20,000 more than Money/Marquez. What a joke after all that hype for this fight setting a record or being the biggest fight ever and all that garbage. 65-35 purse split in Floyds favor, and this fight will get done tomorrow. Ya dig?
Friday Nov 20, 2009 11:49:30 AM
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The Saint:
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@Fe'Roz: I have to respectfully disagree with you in regards to Mayweather's ability to fight "in the pocket." James Toney does it as good as anyone I've seen in recent years, Ray Leonard did it and so did Pernell Whitaker. But I don't think Mayweather fights in the pocket. He rolls and slips and all that stuff but he doesn't really fire back and trade. He waits for his opponents to finish before he responds. While Mayweather is astronomically talented, I think that he isn't a complete fighter because he doesn't have a real inside game which I think will hurt him against Pacquiao, who himself is not an inside fighter either but his arms are so short that he can throw fully-leveraged straight punches from such a close distance as opposed to hooks and uppercuts that Mayweather is used to slipping when his opponents are right on top of him. And again, I'd like to reiterate that I think Mayweather is a bad matchup for Pacquiao and that Pacquiao is a bad matchup for Mayweather. It's going to be a great fight, I think we'll finally get to see Mayweather the fighter when he goes up against Pacquiao.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 11:54:49 AM
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The Saint:
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@Eastar: Not sure where you get your "facts" from, but regardless, it sounds like you already have your excuse lined up for Floyd not agreeing to fight Pacquiao.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 11:56:10 AM
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ali @ FeRoz:
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I couldn't disagree with anything you said great points. Pryor, JCC, Duran and Pac I could see how there are similar when it comes to being relentless and being able to take a punch thats why this is such a great fight. You say Sugar Ray vs Duran will Mayweather be able to frustrate Pac with the movement like Sugar Ray Vs Duran in there second fight or will Pac power speed and pressure be to much for Mayweather like Sugar Ray vs Duran first fight only time will tell. I know you Give Mayweather his props I always read your post I got much respect for you boxing knowledge.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 12:19:28 PM
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Eastar:
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@ The Satan check ESPN . com for my "facts" and their not excuses because if Pacgirl fights for "legacy" like everyone says he does, than that purse split should not be an excuse. Fanny should want to fight Floyd just to prove who's the best, or just for the "fans" since he doesn't fight for money. Ya dig?
Friday Nov 20, 2009 12:22:10 PM
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Erik:
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Did we not forget that leading up to the Hatton/Mayweather fight, many questioned whether Mayweather would be able to handle the onslaught of pressure Hatton would deliver. Would Mayweather be able to stand up to Hatton's punches? Many doubted Mayweather would win against Hatton and you can say what you like about the fact that Pacquiao destroyed Hatton faster then Floyd but at the time Floyd fought him, Hatton was 43-0 and anyone who has been around the sport knows a loss can destroy a fighters psyche.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 12:24:33 PM
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Fe'Roz :
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Eastar, I arrived on this site and everyone was all over your sh*t. I was wondering why.... but now I see. You're a borderline Idiot. 1.25 million less 1 million is 250,000. That is 25% more than Mayweather. 250,000 is 230,000 more than your math of 20,000. Assuming those are final, Manny has increased his numbers 50% since beating Hatton (800,000 PPVs) in less than six months surpassing Floyd.....in direct proportion to his rising popularity. the only reason I am dignifying your inane comments is so that you might find some place else where fools are suffered .....and more welcome
Friday Nov 20, 2009 12:34:57 PM
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Fe'Roz @ the Saint:
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I am not saying Floyd is at his best in the pocket but that he is so talented he can fight there if he choses. If he does with Manny, it's probably a mistake and he better be ready to trade.....because Manny will. I would love to see it. What I don't want to see is Manny chasing Floyd for 12 rounds and the judges deciding simply who landed more clean effective punches. I want to know from watching a Fight. As in Fight. I'm sure you understand. pc
Friday Nov 20, 2009 12:40:03 PM
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jeff:
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A lot of stupid boxing fans here thinks that because Mayweather took JMM to school it will happen the same to Pacquiao. If you have the brain to think about how bloated JMM and how it affects his speed maybe you would understand. Not to mention how Mayweather cheated his weight and took the easy road by fighting on his comfort zone. Disregarding how small JMM is and cheating on his weight shows a real coward there for the whole world to see. People dont want to see Floyd fights but they want to see him get koed and thats the reality!
Friday Nov 20, 2009 12:43:56 PM
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jeff:
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A lot of stupid boxing fans here thinks that because Mayweather took JMM to school it will happen the same to Pacquiao. If you have the brain to think about how bloated JMM and how it affects his speed maybe you would understand. Not to mention how Mayweather cheated his weight and took the easy road by fighting on his comfort zone. Disregarding how small JMM is and cheating on his weight shows a real coward there for the whole world to see. People dont want to see Floyd fights but they want to see him get koed and thats the reality!
Friday Nov 20, 2009 12:50:51 PM
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Eastar:
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I know it's 25% more you moron. I read the thread just minutes ago and I'm typing on my way out the door. My point was not to give a math lesson, bird brain. The point is it's ONLY 25% considering the fact that everyone was talking about fight of the "century" or, this is a real fight when Floyd comes back to fight a tune-up and gets ONLY 25% less PPV's than Pacgirl/Coocho. Virtually BY HIMSELF. So take your little math equations back to community college.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 12:51:35 PM
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The Saint:
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@Eastar: Regarding the PPV numbers, you're running out of places to run. However way you spin it, Pacquiao topped Mayweather by over 200,000 buys. I don't care about this "no dancing partner" garbage that Mayweather likes to throw out. Mayweather was the one who insisted that Marquez was the "real" number one during his absence since Mayweather claims that Marquez truly beat Pacquiao. The way I see it, the supposed "number one" and "numero uno" should've sold more PPV's than the "fake" number one in Manny Pacquiao. Glad to see you on hear, Eastar, you make everybody look smart.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 01:02:23 PM
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The Saint:
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@Eastar: Same goes for Floyd, the jealous #2. ya dig?
Friday Nov 20, 2009 01:05:25 PM
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@Eastar:
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Pacquiao sold 200,000 more buys, not 20,000 you du%$%#%t. Go back to elementary school.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 01:20:15 PM
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Matthew:
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Saint is right. All three of those gentlemen fought well in the pocket. Not only is Mayweather's inside game lacking, but his entire offensive arsenal is not all that creative. He rarely throws more than one punch at a time. His defensive skills are out of this world, however. By the way, someone mentioned in a previous post here that Leonard was "beaten up" by Duran in Montreal. While I may be splitting hairs here, I would disagree with the use of "beaten up." Yes, Leonard took more in terms of punishment in that fight than he had ever taken before, but it was clearly NOT one-sided, as the use of those words might mislead. He gave as good as he got, as indicated by how close the fight was. The mouse on Duran's left eye would also support this. Sorry, I just want to make sure the record is accurate.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 02:34:41 PM
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rob @ owefbodobolyu:
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Owefdobolyu Dammam: "Floyd's patented shoulder roll defense had served him well in the past. But with Pacquiao, Floyd's shoulder is in danger of being dislocated. "
lol, damn right. busted and dislocated. let these pbf fans continue to underestimate pac's power and ring generalship. after the fight, hopefully they will appreciate the greatness of the pacman
Friday Nov 20, 2009 03:16:45 PM
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Yuvie:
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I hate to say it but re-watching Pac/Cotto. I see so much that a guy like Mayweather can exploit in Pacquiao's game, to the point where he just won't let Pac get started. Based on Pac's fight with Cotto, maybe he started a bit too slow, he just throws that 2 or 3 too many in his combos which leaves him exposed and off-balance and the frustration he had with Cotto's running game. Based on those 3 things, Mayweather would have a field day. However, I'm not the best judge of Pacquiao's fights and I'd be very happy for him to prove me wrong again. If he got a win over Mayweather, then I'd officially bow down to the boxing god that is Manny Pacquiao. You can quote me on that.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 03:44:41 PM
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Chris:
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There is something to be said with regards to calibre of Pacquiao's opponents. I hate so sound like I’m discrediting him, but factors do detract from his victories.
Oscar was all over the place come their showdown. He was long finished before that fight.
Hatton wasn’t the same after being taken apart in Vegas. His wins preceding the Pacquiao fight surely didn’t answer enough questions for rational boxing fans.
As for Cotto, it could also be argued that he’d since lost something after that first defeat, even if Margarito cheated. Clottey was his only real test in between Margarito and Pacquiao, and he was less than convincing on that occasion. For what it's worth, I think Floyd would have also handed Cotto defeat without any trouble.
I think that talk such as this will play into Mayweather’s hands. Granted, Manny is a different class from previous opponents, but how many times down the years have we heard that Floyd is in trouble? Too much. After dismantling Marquez with such ease I'd be more inclined to ask how Manny could possibly cope.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 05:08:49 PM
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Radam G - hmm:
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Wow! Manny will not have any problems seeing Money May's punches coming. Just the reverse, Money May will not see Manny's missiles and torpedo coming and then the NUKE -- KABOOM!. Destruction EVY WHERE! OVA HERRE! OVA DERRE! Looking on the outside of the squared jungle is not quite the same as being in there. Uncle Roger and Pops Joy May both know this. And will no longer underguessimate the Power of da Pac. And now they know this. Money May will never stand in the pocket with PacMan. Yall ought go back and look at what else happened to Miguel. Manny caused Miguel a shoulder separation with an uppercut shot. If you would have been at ringside, you could hear Miguel shout as his shoulder popped out of the socket. In the corner, it was popped back in. (Go view the bout again, and you will catch that scene. i believe that the HBO powers that be even showed a slow motion shot without commenting about the shoulder, though they spoke about it off camera.) But that injury hampered him for the rest of the bout. Gosh, some people really need to be in the group that is seeing and not just looking. Money May is flawed with no ability to improve. Pera Pac is improved and doing it even more. Master Top Notch Trainer Freddie "The No Joke Coach" Roach will have a plan -- like I've said -- to take Money May to the mountain top, trick him into getting under eagle nests, so that the eagles can drop $hit bombs on him (Money May) while Manny knocks the $hit out of him and make him $hit his Hip Hop trunks, lmPao. Then after Money May is all smelly up, Pera Pac will drop him into a mountainous snake-river pit. Maybe yall have not ever seen mountain-river snakes, but they are some big sucka and like dark meat. No pun intended, Eastar, the _______. Money May will quickly become fried chop liver for the mountain-river snakes. Some strange ______comes straight outta Compton -- I mean Republika ng Pilipinas. Holla!
Friday Nov 20, 2009 05:36:44 PM
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ali @ Yuvie:
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Speak on it!!!!
Friday Nov 20, 2009 06:51:24 PM
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Fe'Roz :
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Manny and freddie have spoken. Now it's Floyd's turn
Friday Nov 20, 2009 07:16:07 PM
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boyarate @ misterlee:
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yo misterlee, im not blind. but i got confused i guess. nweiz, you said it yourself, mayweather beat the #1 LIGHTWEIGHT, why then will you consider him even in the top ten in welter? pacquiao on the otherhand, beat cotto, top 3, who can be argued better than the then number 1, because cotto beat mosley (taking away the margarito equation). and pacquiao clearly dominated cotto, who dominated mosley.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 08:10:23 PM
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#1 PacFan "Pacquiao #3 on ATG list"Standing firm!:
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I'm with Radam on this one. Manny has the advantage when it comes to offense and offense creates defense. The way I see this fight playing out is Floyd not willing to engage(don't blame him) but to fight smart and use the ring. He must mix it up cause we know as of right now that Roach has got the tapes piled up to watch for weaknesses from Floyd's game. If he leads with his right he will have success and then come back with his most famous lead left hook. He can't toy with Manny and do his shoulder roll and his back against the ropes. Manny will land a punch or two if he sits back against those ropes. Floyd's number #1 concern is not to engage and think he can trade in their with Manny. Manny's #1 concern is he must not follow Floyd but to cut off the ring(Manny had difficulties finding Cotto when he began bicycling). If those two can stick to their gameplans then we are in for a great battle.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 09:05:09 PM
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insideinformation:
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Top Rank lost there tail off in the Cotto/Pacquiao fight. The 1.25 ppv buys not enough for the amount they spent on the promotion.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 09:40:28 PM
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Radam G -- WTK:
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Bowing down to God, and one will have less bowing down to man. No bows necessary except for the doctors, ring officials and Family Mayweather who be bowing to pick Money May up after Manny easily knock him out. Mayweather is flawed, and especially to a super-fast southpaw. And it is PacMan TIME! Somebody oughta read. "Lil Floyd" is a defense genius to the stand-around conventional pugilist, but not to fast hard-hitting small southpaws. Zab Judah coulda, woulda and shoulda beat Money May. But Zab decided to take it to the streets. No thuggism works against a skilled, focus pugilist. Shoulder rolling, waist folding with your head dropping southward and eyeballs on the canvas will be Money May's downfall. Exploiting anything on PacMan ain't easy when you are in that squared jungle. Eyes looking and getting a signal from a brains about a place that one has never been will cause him an optical illusion. Manny's hand and feet are faster than Money May. Manny's switching from offense to defense is super tricky faster than Money May. Manny's work output and ability to take a punch are much better than Money May. Manny is legit. Money May is full of $hit! In business circles, it is known as Public Relations. "Food to the Public fools! The Public be damn," has always been the cry of money-making, heavily flawed machines. Money May is definitely one of those machines. He has con more boxing fans, aficionados, experts and kissarses than a snake-oil salesman and a fibbing TV preacher claiming direct communication to God and healing the sick, and lost and down-and-out, nobody-cares-about-them, trapped-in-abject-suffering poor; then the preacher dies of a heart attack a weak later. OMG! God Musta fo'got! God Didn't Holla to the Rev, "Sucka ya' dying next week for lying." KABOOM! Rev was outta here. But his peeps and congregation gave him a good funeral. If Money May steps up, maybe he will get a funeral for the end of the goose egg on his boxing record. Just like the saying, "Everybody's looking but nobody is seeing. Look at Mayweather and see his flaws. Look at Pacquiao with a uninfected mindset. Holla!
Friday Nov 20, 2009 09:50:03 PM
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#1 PacFan "Pacquiao #3 on ATG list"Standing firm!:
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Bravo Pare Radam!! That was one for the ages!
Friday Nov 20, 2009 09:56:37 PM
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MisterLee:
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Amen! Holler!!!
Friday Nov 20, 2009 10:37:42 PM
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MisterLee:
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It's safe to say Manny would have whooped the "Ricky Hatton" pre-Mayweather , or the one that showed up in the Fall of 2007, or that he would have knocked out the Oscar De La Hoya of May 5th, 2007, at 154 even... he would not have stayed around the ropes and the pocket asking for free shots from oscar, or allow oscar to pound at his ribs with his money shot... manny would have outboxed him, had him in full retreat by round 5, then finished him off in round 10 or 11. So it's this little illusion that Floyd beat this "much better version" of these guys when Hatton was on the upside from his malignaggi victory and effective use of his jab... and fighting at HIS OWN WEIGHT (140) and tho de la hoya was weight drained, he may NOT have been as SHOT as pple said he was even at 147, b/c he did throw some shots, they were just not landing... and manny was functioning like an A+ welterweight, not a smaller guy just making it in the welter division like a campbell or joan guzman. No more excuses for manny, he is great.. how great? I can't say, i'm not a historian, but he sure is great....Yep.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 10:42:21 PM
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Isaiah:
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Mayweather fans are the only ones with hate in them. They will find any multitude of exscuses to discredit Pacaquiao. They will point at his love life like that has anything to do with anything. They will discredit his level of opposition and have true irony with crediting Floyd's. Point blank, Pacquiao's PPV sells have been steadily rising and are now better then Floyd's, but the Mayweather fans will not accept it. To use a biblical quote that goes something like this, "They shall have ears and not hear and eyes and not see. They are liars and the truth is not in them." Manny Pacquiao is not God, but he is God fearing and a humble warrior worth respecting. Floyd is a materialistic man who will never have my respect.
Saturday Nov 21, 2009 12:04:19 AM
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SweetscienceFan:
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Hey Paulie M. -No wonder you are a mediocre boxer. And no class at all. All boxer are tested by the Nevada Athletics. Did you finish high school?? like Mayweather Sr. ???? You are an insult to intelligence.
Frank, great analysis. One point, Yes, if Mayweather Jr can not throw punch in succession and with power and accuracy like THe Pacman, Mayweather is a sitting duck. Now , that the Jr and Sr Mayweather saw The Pacman can take the biggest shot of Cotto. Now its either they are running scared or they have to re tool Mayweather Jr. Marquez and Mayweather fight was an uneventful match. Marquez is getting older and slower not The Pacman.
Can not compare. Mayweather is all business The Pacman is about giving people great excitement.
Saturday Nov 21, 2009 01:08:01 AM
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arturo@ isaiah u cant handle the truth:
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Radam G said that Cotto looked bad the day of the weigh in.He said the fight was won at the scale. How the hell ard people not going to have questions about Manny's legacy ? Hatton was overrated more than any other boxer in recent times.Oscar has no pride, he wasnt even 30% of him in his prime.Manny did beat three great Mexican fighters and he can beat more but no more catchweights just to kill the doubt that a lot of us have.
Saturday Nov 21, 2009 03:11:08 AM
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Fe'Roz @ arturo:
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When you lead with your heart and not your head you get countered. If you take away Hatton and Oscar from Manny you must remove them from Floyd. In that case, Floyd's accomplishments as a welterweight are Baldomir and Judah, two minor fighters. Manny just won a title from one of the best in the division. Your desire to undermine Manny has pulled the rug out from under Floyd. BTW, Radam and every other commentator said that JMM was way out of his league when he entered the ring. Nacho Baristein hated the way he looked before the fight. Cotto on the othe hand was very satisfied with himself at weight. He brought his A game ....and was destroyed. By the latest and now possibly the greatest in the division. Manny Pacquiao. All Manny did was put his balls in the pants that Floyd vacated when he retired instead of facing Oscar again....or any one of the five top welters.
Saturday Nov 21, 2009 10:18:15 AM
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Mosley:
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I don't think Manny Pacquiao is the best fighter at welterweight because he didn't beat the best welterweight in Miguel Cotto. If Pacquiao wanted to fight the number one welterweight, he would have fought me first - he wouldn't have fought Cotto. I refuse to continue chasing fights with Pacquiao. I already said what I said and I already did what I had to do to as far as telling him that I want to fight him. It's up to Pacquiao now to step up and say 'I want to fight you' and I'll make it happen,.
Saturday Nov 21, 2009 10:49:17 AM
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Nuckle:
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I'm been on the exact same page as F- Lo
Saturday Nov 21, 2009 11:56:27 AM
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MisterLee:
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Unifiy the belts mosley! Knockout berto like collazo ALMOST did! Then whoop a few more arses and call it quits! The fact that you were considering fighting Clottey is a testament to heart! Scareweather is gonna run from you as long as you're a human being! He want nothing to do with manny or mosley! The only two good guys on the table. If floyd pulls out, manny gonna try to unify the belts in a super fight with mosley (mosley wins, by 8-11 rd tko), then win or lose, manny fights marquez to finish the trilogy. I WOULD LOVE TO SEE MANNY UNIFY JR WELTER WITH TIMOTHY DESERT STORM BRADLEY. Bradley is amazing, and might be ready to deal with the speed. Holler!
Saturday Nov 21, 2009 02:40:36 PM
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southernman:
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Joez ur the 1 dreamin .. no way floyd can win over pacman.. he's too strong and too fast for gayweather.. pac v shane is the more interesting one.
Wednesday Nov 25, 2009 08:35:52 PM
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Arban:
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For those who were saying that manny just has natural talent the way he's been beating his opponents, are you kidding me? After his last fight with Jmm, Stryker tampered with his body. Paulie was right that there is something in manny that makes him as he is now. Actually, it was David Diaz who noticed it first. If you all watched his interview after his fight with pac, he said that is was like manny has blades in his hands and it's as if he was slicing him more than he was punching him. And the way he knocked out hatton & was absorbing cotto's punches, who can ever doubt the adamantium that's inside his body. So pbf, better watch out! You'll be needing magneto on your side. Nevertheless, it won't really matter 'cause there's prof x to guide the man.
Thursday Nov 26, 2009 03:40:59 AM
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The White Torando:
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Frank, you nail this one...
Also an obstacle Manny has is Floyd's 0...an undefeated fighter, that is a good one who has not been handed tomato cans his whole career, comes with the ambiance of unbeatable that must be broken...
My vision for this fight is that this fight goes the distance, remembering that gold (money) controls the big Monet and a rematch will swing it into the high gear of millions...sorry for letting the cat out of the bag...
The White Tornado
Friday Nov 27, 2009 07:30:08 PM
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Kodie Blue:
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I Now see why it was so easy for Floyd to take this fight. So many of you are disilliusioned by Manny's recent four wins. First of all, Manny as the world understands, fought a much different, drained, depleted, underweight, and dehydrated delahoya than Floyd mayweather did. That made the difference in many people's eyes. Secodnly, Mayweather fought Ricky Hatton First when he was undefeated and as many people put it, at the top of the world. Manny fought A frustrated, bitter, and Subconciously shamed Ricky who was dethrowned first by Mayweather. So if you can make the argument that Manny defeated them quicker, and faster. I as well as many others can make the ever expanding stance that they were both already defeated. And why was Manny following in the footsteps of Mayweather and trying to beat the peole he already beat? And last but not least, Marquez Rocked Manny Twice. Sure Manny knocked him down twice in the first two rounds of one of there fights but he never knocked Marquez out, and in the eyes of many, Marquez clearly without question won every round in the fight other than the won he was knocked down breifly in. Mayweather on the other hand, clearly Frustrated, out punched, pointed, and defeated Marquez in one fight without no need for a rematch. Manny hasn't ever fought anyone as skilled techically or offensively as Mayweather at there Best! Cotto had very little head movement, and neither did Ricky. Mayweather has all of that, and then some! Good Luck Manny!
Sunday Dec 6, 2009 11:10:26 PM
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danny:
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PACMAN is a good fighter and Mayweather is a skillful boxer please do not get me wrong. Power and strength are not the only tools needed to win or overpower a skillful boxer like Mayweather JR. Note: PACMAN needs more than that: that is PACMAN will be frustrated and get knocked out or he will be beating like a Pinata. Mayweather is faster, smarter, skillful, strong and where comes PACMAN to defeat him. That day will SURELY come to pass and PACMAN will never ever be called a champion in boxing anymore.
Wednesday Dec 9, 2009 01:37:51 PM
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BMAN:
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Let's look at this realistically . None of these fights are the same , you cant compare them in any way . Research the fight weights , gloves and timing of all these fights . All this hype is to get you to spend more money , which is cool cause its entertaining . If you think this is gonna be a great fight , start preparing your excuses why pacquaio lost after its done .
Thursday Dec 10, 2009 10:16:56 AM
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The Baroness:
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Ahem! Something I'd been trying to express privately for a very long time now, and you know it! At best, this is going to be a tight bout, one that may make PPV worthwhile. Only time will tell if it serves to bring some much-needed glory back. This is just the sort of matchup that fans have been craving for a long time now.
Sunday Dec 13, 2009 02:12:39 PM
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Ricky:
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Hey Arban,
Don't you know anything about boxing? Accurate, fast punches to a boxer's face always creates cuts, and appears like it's being cut by razorblades; yes, Pacman's punches pack speed AND power, thus creating cuts, thus knocking out Hatton; and his toughness as a fighter shows he can take a hard punch. He's been doing it his own boxing career and proven it. He also is known to train diligently and practices non-stop, works harder than most fighters, and along with his natural talent, skill, ability and love of boxing, that what makes him "great", and great for the sport. Not because of your ridiculous statement that someone has "tampered" with his body. Get real..
Paulie, you also talk nonsense with your statement about Manny; it is just showing your envy and jealousy of a man who is going to make boxing history and you can't understand how or why he did it. Maybe because you'll never reach his high level doesn't mean you should insult him by thinking it was done unnaturally. He always has a clean bill of health, has an extremely hard work ethic, integrity and honesty to family and country; you could learn from him. As a naturally gifted fighter; yes he can take a punch and yes he is a great puncher! Just think what he coud do to you if you faced him in the ring; much worse than what Cotto did to you. Accept the fact that we are all seeing a boxing phenomenon who is making boxing history; let's enjoy the ride. Just don't come up with ridiculous notions and opinions about people with no proven data and disrespect for the Boxing Commission of not monitoring drug testing of boxers; it makes you look like an idiot; be smart... nuff said.
Monday Dec 21, 2009 02:32:49 AM
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Ray P.:
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I'm Puerto Rican, and I have to take my hat off to Pacquiao, he did a number on my #1 fighter - Cotto. Miguel hasn't been fighting the way he could since he broke up with his uncle. He needs a better trainer than the one he has now. But, this is what I'm trying to get at - I'm not mad at Manny and wishing he loses to Mayweather because of the beating he gave Cotto. No, just the opposite, I really think that if anyone has a good chance at beating Mayweather, it's Pacquiao. Manny can take a punch and throws many of them from different angles. Yeah, Mayweather is a good defensive fighter and seems to roll punches off with his shoulders, but he's going to have to stop Manny from throwing off so many punches. He will have to punch back to back off Manny. This is where I believe Mayweather will get in trouble. Mayweather will leave himself wide open and get hit by some of Manny's powerful punches. We'll get to see what kind of chin Mayweather has. Well, that's if they ever fight. I hope they do. It'll be an interesting and good fight.
Thursday Mar 4, 2010 10:27:10 AM
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Angie And Goody...23 Years Later
Twenty three years later after they seconded Marvin Hagler and Ray Leonard in Las Vegas, Goody Petronelli and Angelo Dundee crossed paths again. This time, it was at Foxwoods. Photo/friend of TSS "The Iceman" John Scully reports there were only pleasantries exchanged. Goody didn't debate the split decision victory enjoyed by Leonard, which to this day Hagler disputes.
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