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| Springs breaks down Manny. He makes comparisons to the real Sugar Ray and Ali. And you cannot refute him. |
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DECONSTRUCTING MANNY
By Springs Toledo
Manny Pacquiao: I’m just [an] ordinary fighter...
Freddie Roach (interrupting): –You’re not ordinary.
Manny Pacquiao: Sorry about that, master.
“He finds gaps,” said Emanuel Steward after Manny Pacquiao stopped Miguel Cotto in the twelfth round. Those three words mirror the words of a far older, far more legendary war tactician: Sun Tzu. “Strike at their gaps,” The Art of War asserted two thousand years ago, “attack when they are lax, don’t let the enemy figure out how to prepare.” The second knockdown of Cotto illustrated this theory. Cotto, a conventional boxer-puncher, was hit in the fourth round by an uppercut from the left side that went inside and underneath his guard. Pacquiao found a gap, capitalized on the momentary carelessness of an onrushing opponent, and spent the rest of the fight exploding every potential solution Cotto thought he had.
“When you are going to attack nearby make it look as if you are going to go a long way,” Sun Tzu said, “when you are going to attack far away, make it look as if you are going just a short distance.” Pacquiao seems to be moving out when he’s coming in and coming in when he’s moving out. He exploits expectations with illusions. He “draws them in” and then “takes them by confusion.” Trainer Freddie Roach, himself a former professional boxer, agrees that Pacquiao is “very hard to read.” Pacquiao continues punching when his opponent expects a pause, his angles are bizarre, and he is often not where he is expected to be after a combination. Due to such unorthodoxies, this southpaw is a master of destroying the timing and rhythm of a conventional fighter. He is similar to Joe Calzaghe in that regard. Mikkel Kessler said that Calzaghe “ruins your boxing.” Indeed, Pacquiao does worse than that.
While a disruptive boxer like Calzaghe spills ink all over your blueprint and laughs about it, Pacquiao ruins your blueprint, but then adds injury to insult by crashing the drafting table over your head.
THERE’S SOMETHING ABOUT MANNY
Pacquiao has athletic gifts that translate well in the ring: disruptive rhythm, timing, and speed, all financed by shocking power that belies his featherweight frame. As if this weren’t enough, his whiskers safely absorbed the shock of Cotto’s left hooks. He was never hurt, which raises eyebrows. Manny, we must remember, was exchanging punches in a division forty pounds north of the one he began in. And he reveled in it, he invited it, even snarling at times and standing disdainfully in the final stanzas to challenge the manhood of the retreating Puerto Rican. Roberto Duran, 58, watched from the crowd. His coal-black eyes remembering the night he dethroned another welterweight who thought he could outgun a smaller man. Duran watched Pacquiao’s black hair flying with the force of his blows, his beard paying unintentional tribute. A smile, once sinister, betrayed his lips.
Despite the glory heaped on him by a celebrity-starved public and an island nation eager for eminence, Pacquiao is not the flawless fighter that Duran was when he handed Sugar Ray Leonard his first defeat. Pacquiao’s humanity can be sensed if not seen in his nervousness as battle commences. It takes him a round or two to find his rhythm and gauge his distance and timing. Before that happens he is prone to reach in, get off balance in range, and will often leave windows open for counters. After that happens, his opponent, any opponent, is in peril.
He can be controlled, particularly by welterweights, but it will take a trainer and a fighter who are willing to give up conventional strategies and think out of the box. Convention is broken down by revolution, and Manny Pacquiao fights like a revolution.
Alas, even the trainer who recognizes the need for a counter-revolutionary strategy is faced with another problem –the trainer in the other corner:
Freddie Roach. The formidable Freddie Roach.
Roach has Parkinson’s disease, which has burdened him with tremors, slurring, and odd pauses during conversations. Its symptoms can be as disconcerting to conventional conversationalists as Manny Pacquiao’s style is to conventional fighters; but his disability also gives him an aura of alien brilliance like Stephen Hawking.
It has had no effect on his knack for strategy.
Roach did well not to tamper with Pacquiao’s unorthodoxy. He streamlined it and added balance, deliberate feints, angles, defense, and a two-fisted attack. Like Floyd Mayweather Jr., Manny Pacquiao has a foundation in fundamentals. Unlike Mayweather, Pacquiao’s lessons occurred later in his career, while Floyd’s were drilled into him as a small child. Also unlike Mayweather who claims to disdain strategy, Manny enters the ring with a master plan or three. Sun Tzu emphasized this: “Victorious warriors win first and then go to war.” Roach spends hours and days and weeks and months in study. He deconstructs his opponent and finds patterns –“habits” as he calls them, to exploit. Then he teaches Manny to “see it as [he] sees it.”
At times, the eyes of Freddie Roach seem to focus on a higher plane inaccessible to anyone else. Perhaps he communes with the ghost of Eddie Futch. Futch was his mentor, and was among the greatest trainers of the 20th century. Futch sparred with Joe Louis and learned his trade in the company of master boxers like Holman Williams. He was the strategist behind the first defeat of Muhammad Ali by Joe Frazier, the second defeat of Ali by Ken Norton, Riddick Bowe’s defeat of the undefeated Evander Holyfield, and Montell Griffin’s disqualification win over the undefeated Roy Jones. Freddie Roach learned at his knee. Manny Pacquiao learned at Freddie’s.
The most popular boxer in the world today was catapulted into stardom after he defeated Oscar De La Hoya and then Ricky Hatton. Serious boxing fans know the truth. De La Hoya and Hatton were simply two candles on a cake already baked between 2003 and 2008 by great Mexicans from the lower weight divisions: Marco Antonio Barrera, Erik Morales, and Juan Manuel Marquez. These are the men who tried him in fire much like Murderers' Row tried Archie Moore in the 1940s and Philadelphia tried Marvelous Marvin Hagler in the 1970s. Pacquiao has evolved bloodily into a complete fighter and then some. He is an experienced, natural athlete with power that exponentially rises with weight. He has a style that is as confusing as a hall of mirrors and as difficult to solve as Chinese math. He is a willing student with an expanding set of skills. Behind him stands a trainer with a direct link to Eddie Futch who was a product of boxing’s golden decade and rubbed shoulders with many gods of war. Manny’s pugilistic pedigree summons the gold of yesterday to overcome the iron of today.
HAIL MANNY, FULL OF GRACE
Boxing is a character sport first and a skills sport second. Manny’s character was formed in a background that is ideal for a fighter –a background set in the kind of third world poverty that Americans have not known for seventy years, but a background known to spawn fighters in back alleys amid broken bottles and broken dreams. Manny ran away from home at fourteen to spare his mother one more mouth to feed. He exchanged real poverty for worse poverty –in an act of sacrifice. This fighter has not only suffered, he also understood and embraced self-denial at early adolescence.
The toughest sport in the world is easy for someone like him. Pacquiao has something to fight for as only a poor man can, for self, for family, for country. He has the discipline to do it, and he has the perspective to transcend it. The Sweet Science is meaningful to him; his participation in it is an expression of love and loyalty, of self-actualization. So he approaches battle with joy.
And that isn’t all.
Manny believes that the hand of God himself is on his shoulder. Cynical secularism may scoff at such ancient notions, but irreverence is irrelevant here. Manny believes this –utterly. And it gives him an edge in that he is completely self-possessed and palpably unconcerned with the risks of the ring. He goes not only willingly, but happily. Throughout history, like-minded people have strode confidently into lion’s dens, climbed into kamikaze cockpits, blown themselves up at market places, sang while burning at a stake, and volunteered to die first at Nazi death camps to spare strangers. Pacquiao’s religiosity is that kind of powerful. It is a major reason why he smiles and waves on his way to battle dragons.
Boxing fans take note: his frame of mind was shared by Sugar Ray Robinson and Muhammad Ali.
Emanuel Steward’s assertion that the thirty-year-old welterweight champion, now 50-3-2, belongs “up there” with Ali and Robinson was half-wrong. When Robinson was thirty, he was defeated once in 131 bouts and went on to finish his career with the scalps of eighteen world champions hanging from his belt. Manny isn’t near that. He is a typhoon blowing over structures less sturdy than those built in the golden era of boxing. But remember, he isn’t finished yet.
Like the legends before him, Manny Pacquiao sees himself as a man of destiny… a patriot fighting for a flag, a Christian laughing at lions… Such men are rarely taken down by anything except time and hubris. They are larger than their foes even when they are not.
Such men are larger than themselves.
…..
Springs Toledo can be contacted at scalinatella@hotmail.com.
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ultimoshogun:
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Wow! Great article Springs! I don't know much of Manny's background other than he like so many others came from humble beginnings, but the story of him running away to spare his mother was very touching. He's truly an honorable man and deserves everything he has today. On another note, Floyd Mayweather is scheduled to appear on George Lopez's late show tomorrow night. I haven't watched the show but I'll tune in for this one to see if George, who's a boxing fan brings up Pacquiao and asks the tough questions. De La Hoya will be on tonight.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 11:49:07 AM
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deepwater:
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I will never doubt manny again. pacman is the gold standard in boxing.mayweather is just like the dollar,cheap with no intrinsic value. buy gold now! dump the dollar.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 12:03:50 PM
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#1 PacFan "P4P King":
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Very great article! I really believe though that Manny has truly reached the top like many of the greats have. He deserves to be considered among the best like Robinson and Ali. Imagine when this great little retires? What will they say? Congrats Manny "Pacman" Pacquiao for your great accomplishment by winning your record 7 world titles in seven different divisions and the only man to have won 4 lineal world titles.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 12:17:05 PM
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David:
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Fantastic article. Something tells me Manny is just getting started. I've been a boxing fan for years, but I'm only 23. I can tell you that never in my life have I seen this kind of excitement around a fighter. This isn't something created by the hype machine in hopes of getting our dollar; this is a guy that actually delivers when he steps into the ring with the kind of scintillating performance that separates this sport from any other. I feel like my generation is finally going to have the era in boxing that we deserve; not just great fights (which we've had, but are largely ignored by the media) but the kind of transcendent, earth-shaking confrontations that make it the greatest sport in the world. Is Pacquiao vs. Mayweather one of those bouts? Or will it be like Pac vs. Cotto, where it's highly competitive for the first half before turning into a bloody rout? Whatever the case, boxing is back in the public eye where it belongs, and I can't imagine a better emissary for the sport than Manny. Outside of the ring he's a model citizen; inside he's a monster. What more can you ask?
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 01:07:24 PM
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TheNCube:
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The very best article I've read on Freddie and Manny. Thank you.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 01:10:18 PM
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mabii:
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Abslolutely great article! I vote for it as article of the year.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 01:10:42 PM
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Yuvie:
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Nice article! Viva Pacquiao! I second Mabii's vote.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 01:51:23 PM
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RED:
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"Emanuel Steward’s assertion that the thirty-year-old welterweight champion, now 50-3-2, belongs “up there” with Ali and Robinson was half-wrong. When Robinson was thirty, he was defeated once in 131 bouts and went on to finish his career with the scalps of eighteen world champions hanging from his belt. Manny isn’t near that. He is a typhoon blowing over structures less sturdy than those built in the golden era of boxing. But remember, he isn’t finished yet."
Thank you, ST. I rest my case. Hopefully, my fellow TSS brothers will now look at my recent statements regarding Manny's stature in our beloved sport in the correct light.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 02:20:21 PM
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Einar:
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On a site chock full of great fight writing this piece tops them all. Mr. Toledo, hat-in-hand I nod. Beautiful writing. Many, many thanks.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 02:27:27 PM
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jose:
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great article, i love irreverance is irrelevant
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 02:33:41 PM
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Frank Z:
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*Applause* well done. manny's indeed gone through the wars when coming up under 135, which is why he does make the fights look easy now. there's many roads to rome in this case. floyd mayweather's been bred honed and born to box purely from age 0, shane mosley hsa been trained and mentored by his father who acted almost like a big brother and gravitated to boxing because he loved it, pacquiao had to fight first before he learned to box, so boxing is almost like a refuge for him. he has that poor country style that you see with his all out blazing aggression and willingness to take to give, the difference being that he's a talented athlete. btw one reason i b elieve that he's carried his power up in weight is becuase he's no longer weight trained. he walks around at about 150 and cutting down to 130 would be too much for most. this reminds me that weigh ins should be on the day of the fight to maximize performance not the day before, but i digress.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 02:42:17 PM
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Radam G - :
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Wow! Fightwriter Springs T, nice copy! So nice that I had to read it twice. I think I'll go for thrice. I be back in a minute....Okay I am back! OMG! A MASTERPIECE for college and military studies of -- not only the "Art of War," but the "Are of Masterpiece scribing. I'm impressed! Other fightwriters and writers in general can learn from how this story weaved together a personality feature and straight-out kicka$$ war philosophy. A good trainer is indeed equal to a field marshal or five-star general. Trainers as the late, great boxing guru Eddie Futch, Angie Dundee, Manny Steward, the late Billy Miller, the late Junior Robles, the late Sarge Johnson, the late Champ Chainey, the late Frankie Karr, Joe Cloud and now Freddie Roach are in the same league with Sun Tzu, Alexander The Great, Genghis Khan. the Prophet Moses, General Douglas MacArthur and many more great.There will be no deconstruction of PacMAN by Money May. Family has not learn the full Art of War, just the talk -- pure propaganda! And this is for his audience, not people with iota of a brain. Holla!
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 02:58:27 PM
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swift:
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Nice Article! I agree, I think people are jumping the gun calling him the greatest ever, but he is in the conversation of great fighters and that's saying something. One thing people have to realize is that the weight that Manny gained to win titles is very small. Think about it, from 112-130 are five titles. 18 lbs and five titles? I'm not knocking Manny at all, but what I am saying is guys like James Toney, Roy Jones, Thomas Hearns and a few others have done pretty much the same thing! But without the titles! The one thing I love about Manny is he fights the best regardless of weight and fights like he was fighting a 112 lb fighter...
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 03:04:14 PM
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Robert Curtis:
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Excellent stuff, Springs! I don't know if Manny will ever have the opportunity to equal the records/numbers of the greats you mention in today's boxing climate. The same frenzy of competition and diversity of competitors does not exist. Also, as you point out, Springs, 70 years ago we had poverty and desperation in the USA similar to today's so-called Third World. Robinson, Louis, Moore, Williams, Armstrong, Bur-ley, etc. were all children of the Depression and the pre-civil rights era. It took incredible courage and dedication for them to succeed. But even if Pacman retires next week, I still think he deserves comparison to the all time greats. He won't have to fight 131 fights to prove his greatness to me.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 03:11:35 PM
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brownsugar,.. Is welterweight at 145 or 147 now??:
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Manny will always be a great fighter in my eyes,.. but he hasn't even scratched the surface at 147 yet,... it seems like the 147 limit has now become the 145 limit just to accommodate Manny,.. because that's his best weight,.. I still hold Cotto, Berto, Clottey,.Williams, Shane and even Mayweather well ahead as far as thier accomplishments go,... at the welter weight limit,.... as opposes Manny,s conquests at 145 because they campaigned at the true limit numerous times,.. wins over the dried out competition notwithstanding,.. Pac still has the potential to make a name at 147,.. whenever Roach and company decide to take on the welters at their true limit,.. hope it happens but it appears doubtful.. forcing guys to abandon their true weight to come in the fight weak does not lay the groundwork for a memmorable stint in the welterweight division for Pac,.......... what??,.... are welterweights supposed to fight at 145 now just to give Manny a chance? to win a title that has been eternally sanctioned at 147??? even guys like David Haye didn't force Valuez to lose his 100 pound advantage,..and still won,.. Roy didn't have to make Ruiz come down to cruiser in order to beat him,.... and Sugar didn't starve out Hagler for his win middleweight,.. Hammerin Hank held 3 titles at once without changing the weights,..Catchweights for titles is a trend that's destroying the integrity of the once Hallowed welterweight Crowns....Roach will probably never let Manny show his talent at the full limit,.. as long as the business of boxing permits hard-up boxers to continue to starve themselves to earn 6 figures,... sad development fo' sho',.......
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 03:38:56 PM
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joe Rein:
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Keenly insightful, elegant read, Springs. It's what I wish boxing writing would be, but rarely is.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 04:24:07 PM
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The Saint:
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@Floyd Mayweather Sr aka Brownsugar: Get over it. Pacquiao is one of the greatest. Whether or not he's THE greatest, who cares, and how do you measure that, anyway? Pacquiao's career is not a fabricated one like De La Hoya's or Mayweather's, and he doesn't need a paper trail of "accomplishments" to prove his greatness. I don't care about his 7 titles in as many weight divisions, it doesn't mean much to me. But he's an all time great, and only two people on this planet disagree (Mayweather Jr and Sr).
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 04:34:52 PM
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Frank Z@brownsugar:
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Very valid point, a good aomunt of this praise is being overstated. pacquiao has yet to fight a true welterweight at welterweight. all the more reason iw oudl like him to fight floyd and then shane if he is to continue at this weight.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 04:37:24 PM
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#1 PacFan "Pacquiao #3 on ATG list":
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If Mayweather's accomplishments is considered better than Manny's then I say hell with you. If you say Mayweather is the GREATEST OF ALL TIME then I say Manny Pacquiao is GOD of boxing. No matter which way you look at it Mayweather will always be at the bottom looking up at Manny. Who will one day be THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 04:46:55 PM
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ali is not top 3 all-time:
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@ BROWNSUGAR Great points I think he should be ok with fighting guys at the 147 limit now he's proved he can handle it. Fredie Roach is still talking about he wants Mayweather to come down to 145 dude has lost his mind. See little stupid $hit like that will make the fight even harder to make this is a no brainer. The only problem they should have is about money if people (im talking about both sides) argue about ring size,gloves, weight Ect the fight will never happen.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 05:00:56 PM
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ali:
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I meant to say Pac is not in the top 3 all-time
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 05:01:56 PM
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@ali:
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Show me 1 source of Roach wanting Mayweather to come down to 145. That's a LIE. Get these lies off here.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 05:12:32 PM
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James:
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wow what a great article,nice to read like me...more power to you..GOd BLESS
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 05:19:23 PM
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manboobs the great:
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Geez!!! Like Manny much? LOL
Good read man, seriously.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 05:33:11 PM
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@@ali:
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haha! seems like anything ali has to say has no credibility.. just like his hero mayweather.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 05:33:52 PM
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Ratbo:
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In Pacquiao-Mayweather, Manny will do a Cotto because of Krista
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 05:56:44 PM
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tseko:
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This article hits me to the core just as Manny bullseyed the weak chin of Miguel Cotto that wrote a legendary finis to his welterweight superiority. I am teaching philosophy here in the Philippines and the way Springs advances his pugilistic dissertation about Manny's Sun Tzu(ish) boxing war constitutes an ultimate elevation of a certain sport as physical as boxing to its absolute rational level. Manny, therefore, enhances boxing to its Nirvanic plateau.
I really salute you Mr. Springs.
And Mayweather? Forget about this Nero of boxing. He hides his true gender as a feminine through his bullshit shoulder rolls and irrational blabber. If Manny is the Sun Tzu of boxing, then Floyd is the dung that clings to the wheel of Sun Tzu's war general's chariot.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 06:04:37 PM
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Fe'Roz (repost):
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Floyd has never fought anybody like Pacqiauo......because there has never been anyone quite like Manny. We are watching something very unique. Someone for whom there is no blueprint because every time the ink dries, Manny keeps changing.... for the better. Looking at tapes won't help. Yesterday's Manny is not today's....and today's Manny is not tomorrow's. And not incrementally. Like superman, he moves in leaps and bounds. First he's one handed. Then he's not. His right is as good as his left. He can hit with power from both sides. His rhythm punching has not comparables. His power keeps increasing with his strength. His strength and stamina are uncanny; his punch resistance their equal. Literally, every time we have seen him fight, he gets better. If and when Floyd fights Manny, he will need more than a pedigree and and undefeated record. He will need more than a shoulder roll.....and the ability to adjust. For Manny means business.....and Floyd better be ready. He will be fighting for his life
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 06:07:00 PM
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Jay:
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Simply amazing and moving! You should write a book or a documentary. Great read, bookmarked this page. Thanks!
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 06:12:37 PM
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Anonymous user:
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great read!!!
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 06:15:26 PM
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RamonF:
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Wow! first time I read such an article w/ so much brilliance. Simply not just enjoying reading your article but also got the impression of how good this writer is while reading. Congratulation!
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 06:17:38 PM
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Luvinc:
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Great article out of a great fight! The writer is skillful as the boxer. Equal to Pacquiao's performance. There are so many relevant reverence. I really enjoyed reading it, as I enjoyed watching the fight.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 06:18:11 PM
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Radam G -hmmm!:
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Actually there is a long, long history of elite and all-time greats boxing at catchweights. I will just name one -- and then leave it along. I will let the great TSS fightwriters do holla a story on the history of catchweight bouts. The great Sugar Ray Leonard made lhvy WBC king Donny Lalonde fought SRL at a catchweight of 168, so SRL could win two title in one night, in one match. Plus SRL wanted to be the WBC first Supermiddleweight king. One will be surprised to see that a lot of catchweight bouts took place during the original eight weight of boxing. Holla!
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 06:29:14 PM
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bolo punch:
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floyd jr. is talking scared and envious because he knows he can never be the kind of man manny is.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 06:29:18 PM
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EYE:
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Wow, great article. it was well said about how Manny & Freddie blended as a trainer/fighter relationship. its good for boxing.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 06:33:48 PM
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Jun Espinosa:
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Excellent writing Springs! you made me cry with the words you described Manny. I followed manny's career when i saw him 1st fight Ledwaba, when Manny snapped his gloves before the bell rings i knew there's something special, like he is obsess to win!
"For you Manny i always pray before your fight not only for you to win, but also for you to remain healthy, because you are one of a kind and we don't to lose you". mabuhay Ka!
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 06:36:11 PM
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Guile:
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That's what we call FAITH!
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 06:37:08 PM
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sonny managbanag:
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This is what "WRITING" is all about...you really can write man...
KUDOS to you. KEEP IT UP.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 06:39:00 PM
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WowedReader:
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Sir Toledo,
My God, I have read a masterpiece! May I say what an eloquent writing on such brutal sport. Suffice to say, I was compelled to take a short time to thank you for your grand talent. My time spent reading your article was well worth it. It was like a Shakespearean experience or watching an excellent movie where you felt moved, like Gladiator where Rusell Crowe was dying at the end of the movie or Knute Rockne's speech. You win the Pulitzer Prize for sports writng based on this article. Your prose evoked visceral emotions. Your illumination of Manny Pacquiao in a different light made me appreciate him more as a sports hero. With all due respect, I thank you very much, Sir Toledo.
P.S. I hope you get inducted to Knighthood ;-)
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 06:41:19 PM
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sonny managbanag:
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This is what "WRITING" is all about...you really can write man...
KUDOS to you. KEEP IT UP.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 06:50:12 PM
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Rocky:
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bravo!!!! Excellent writing!!! Congratulations!!!
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 06:55:23 PM
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Lapu2jr:
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The article is well-crafted and enlightening. It has no personal bias and speaks of an exceptional writer..Am expecting more articles from you guy. keep it up..
Manny has already earned his niche in the world of Boxing as one of the Greatest of All Times..He is now an epitome of super athlete among the Asians and third world countries if not the whole planet.
I prefer Manny to fight the new middle weight champ, yuri foreman to cement his legacy, honor and fame as the eight lineal division champ. I believe he can do it.
Forget PBF, it is only money which is at stake..which he has more than enough. He does not need to prove anymore.
Next March is the right time for that big event before the election in thePhiippines.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 07:02:42 PM
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Charles Darwin:
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I think this is the best article, a lot of sence, educational a lot a lot. thank .
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 07:07:47 PM
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trekker_dust:
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THIS IS AMAZING ARTICLE!
I will call this is an "ART OF JOURNALISM"
This is sooooooo NICE! i enjoyed reading your article... THANK YOU!
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 07:13:47 PM
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jake:
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We are all sons of GOD. Manny is this particular son of GOD delivered to humanity as a shining example of how everyone should live a life. Manny was commisioned to do just that. JESUS totals five letters, so does MANNY.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 07:19:14 PM
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Radam G - Just a thought - with congrats @ 2009 ROTY Fe'roz:
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Wow! I'm glad that you are seeing Manny "PacMan" Pacquiao the way that I have always said that he was, Fe'Roz. From the 2007 Reader of the Year to the 2009 Reader of the Year, like Manny, we scribe in uncanny ways. They never know what's coming. We keep them guessing and then to da KISSER! Wow! NICE! Before Miguel Cotto fought Antonio Margarito I told this universe that it would be a bout between Hatton and Manny and then one between the Island boys -- Manny and Cotto. Wow! I was called ((I%%&^%^&% and some worse than that. But it is all good. I see that Editor Mike and his posse of fightscribers, and of course the serious TSS Readers know what time it is -- Fe"'Roz Time! Editor Mike, you never officially called Doputo69 the 2008 Reader of the Year. Wow! Since it was not too early for Top Notch spitter Fe'Roz, it is not too early to show da Don da luv. Any way! I'm a big fan of Money May and a bigger fan of Pera Pac. And I won't go into my background of the hurt bitnezz because it rub a lot of the readers the wrong way. I wish that they were like you, Fe'Roz: Not wanting me to rub them at all, lmao! Just give the goods and let a person of their choice get down, lmfao and a few hard giggles! Any way number two! Using the not-so-correct rhymes of "Lil Floyd('s) dad Pops Joy May, "One! Two! Three! Tic Tac Toe (Floyd "Money May" Mayweather's) gonna hit da flo! Ya'll see!" You know I may just challenge Pops Joy May to rhyming throwdown. I'll murdaa' da clown! When Manny knocks out his "Lil' Floyd,'" he is going to have one sad, pathetic frown. Holla!
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 07:23:19 PM
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EXAMINERAUTHOR:
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Fantastic piece. Congratulations Mr. Toledo for a beautiful piece.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 07:27:20 PM
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Anonymous user:
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1
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 07:27:23 PM
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RG -_______:
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*not to late to show da Don da luv...
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 07:28:16 PM
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louie:
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this is one heck of an article
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 07:28:25 PM
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PHILOSOPHER:
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Great read Springs! i like the way u presented the topic.. the way u did makes boxing a more meaningful sport.. the way u wrote makes pacman more respectable than fearsome..
as a filipino, i do feel the poverty here, but i never felt being wounded inside the ring, worse getting up after every wound inflicted by heavy blows...indeed manny is an inspiration and your article makes him more than that.. God bless you
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 07:31:38 PM
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dtfernando:
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There's really a world of difference between the pacman and the moneyman that makes the match compelling.
No boxer on Earth was ever pummelled by critics for alleged lack of capabilities and style in each of so many weight classes than Pacquiao. He was never supposed to be good enough as a flyweight and nothing more than a pretender as a welterweight, and so on. And yet, the Pacman is still the last man standing. Mayweather was a national champion at 16 and had always been favored to win through all the weight classes he fought in. Yet no boxer on Earth was ever looked at with more disdain than the Moneyman. And no boxer on this planet with zero losses was laughed at and ridiculed for what appears to be a perfect record.
Independent old-timers and previous unbelievers/skeptics like Steward who have seen it all have said that the Pacman is special enough to belong up there with Ali in the pantheon of the greatest fighters. The Moneyman and his paid hacks are the lonely voices in the howling wilderness who claim that Floyd Jr should be up there with Ali instead.
And so the match will be between the Pacman Express who is looking for his greatest roadkill in the ring, and Motormouth May who is looking to run his sword through the Philistine that so aggravated his reputation. One defends with his offense; the other offends with his defense. Everyone start enrolling this summer of 2010 for Boxing 101.
Holy Toledo, better be there Springs Toledo.
(You be the instructor for the course....)
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 07:39:35 PM
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henry:
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Manny may not need to fight 150 bouts.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 07:39:57 PM
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jjjam:
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Beat Article i have ever read so far. Nice job! Excellent! Well done.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 07:41:58 PM
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DCRJ:
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Pacquiao seems to be moving out when he’s coming in and coming in when he’s moving out. I remember the Bruce Lee adage "When he contract I retract, when he retract I contract" . Manny Pacquiao doesn't know it or maybe he does that he is subconsciously following Bruce Lee's philosophy which is the ability to adapt to your opponent. The gaps as you have pointed out capitalized by Manny as well as Bruce Lee himself. I would also to emphasize that Manny and Bruce has almost the same physique and built but does anyone notice that Manny's hairstyle in the Cotto fight was almost the same as Bruce Lee's hairstyle?
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 07:44:52 PM
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maroc:
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i have never read a post pacman/cotto fight commentary from angelo dundee and oscar de la hoya who routed for cotto to win the fight. i just want to hear their analysis of the fight or are they still daydreaming with their mouths agaped.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 07:48:33 PM
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Frank Z@ Fe'Roz:
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Fe'Roz, you may be ROTY but that doesn't mean we can't argue with you lol... seriously though, i think we're jumping too hard on manny's improvement, because he has the rare privilege to work under someone with direct connection to the top years of boxing. the knowledge from when boxing was THE sport of this country is probably more than most of us can imagine who werne't around back then to see it. before fighters would have 50-60 fights before getting a title shot, so by then they were much more schooled, and they continued improving throughout their careers as they faced so many different styles. the fact that pacquiao is still improving when most guys don't improve now after their first 15 fights or so does say a lot about him for modern fighters, but not really so much when you look at history. you could say pacquiao is unique now though, in that he is a throwback fighter in how he came up and learned his ways by going through wars with the barreras, marquezes, and morales's. most importantly, he LISTENS. this seems fundamental but from my experience (albeit in the amateurs), being a good listener can negate a lot of talent and skill deficiencies you may have, becuase the third eye outside the ring is essential, especially if that third eye is freddie roach. i think that is what failed de la hoya from reaching his full ability, he had a revolving door of trainers, even though tye were all high quality, only so much knowledge can get through at once, and every trainer has a different way of doing things. you can't overstate the chemistry between pac and roach, and if he is going to beat a master craftsman as well as physical freak like floyd mayweather, believe me, roach WILL be the difference. pac's stamina and power in both hands that he's developed also shows the value of traditional boxing training combined with a strong work ethic.... running, bagwork, sparring, padwork. you never see pacquiao doing any weight machines or dumbbell work, like a lot of people nowadays do that tightens them up and they can't get the snap in their punches as they move up in weight casue they're lifting to go up in weight. i hope that's something people realize about pacquiao, that he came up as old school as they come, from coming up without consistent meals, to finding an eddie futch lineage student, to having fights that improved him consistently throughout his career. those are the things unique about pacquiao for today.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 07:51:17 PM
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BIGFREDO76:
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WOW!!!!!!Excellent articule Mr.Springs.Nice way of making me want to reread the whole thing over again.I think Manny is Great for the sport and his demeanor makes him an Ambassador.I am a Big fan of PBF but Manny takes my love for the sport to greater heights.Keep up the good work.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 08:03:23 PM
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franxiz:
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Beautiful, a great article! Mr. Toledo ur a damn good writer...
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 08:04:30 PM
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2Frank:
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To FrankZ@brownsugar : So you don't consider Cotto to be a true welterweight? May I remind you that Cotto has fought and defeated Shane Mosley, handed the only loss of Paul Williams and not mention fought Margarito. Mayweather retired instead of taking the risk of fighting those aforementioned welterweights.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 08:12:04 PM
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Ali:
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Lovely article.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 08:22:05 PM
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barasang:
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Great article on a great boxer.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 08:27:15 PM
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Troen Gonzales:
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Absolutely brilliant article. Well balanced, inspirational voice but at the same time grounded in reality. I'll look forward to your future articles.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 08:34:41 PM
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ali -Pac vs Mayweather no catchweight:
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Go to BOXINGSCENE I ain't got no reason to lie about anything homeboy who are you anyway put your name on your post if you gone call me a lier.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 08:36:30 PM
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jc:
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very well said, i couldn't argee more. impressive elaboration/explanation. you should really write these kind of stuff in a book.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 08:37:18 PM
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nullsturm:
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You could write a novel if you haven't already. Great read.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 08:42:09 PM
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Dwight Pangan:
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Philsophicaly and literaly this article captures the essence of
the current best pound for pound fighter in the world.In the lower
weights he defeated the legends of the sport. As he moved up
on weight with enhanced boxing skills and became stronger he carried his power with him. Destroying a hall of famer in Oscar
and world champions Diaz ,Hatton & Cotto. That represents P4P
for me beating fighters that is suppose to be bigger & stronger
than him . Imagine Manny started at 106 ibs an Asian fighter not
even Nostredamus can predict this little guy would have 7 world titles.Remember a small heavy weight name Tyson who use to claim he is the baddest in the planet . When he was challenge by Holyfield he said throw us in a locked room and i am the only
one leaving that room alive.Same analogy put Pac-Man and Floyd jr. in a locked room there is no doubt who will emerge victorious because there will be no place to run for Jr. A former
P4P for the most part fought smaller fighters and docked Mosley,Margarito&Cotto. If we put Manny in Floyd Jr's boxing shoes he woud have fought them and proably fighting as a
middleweight . The media should stop adressing him as arguably or many consider as best P4P. He is simply the best
P4P fighter right now . The world awaits as Yoda ( Freddie) formulates a brilliant gameplan to be carried out by Manny as
Luke Skywalker to defeat Darth 'floyd Jr". Vader and his forces of evil.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 08:45:54 PM
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boni:
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Bravo!!! Bravo!!! Bravo!!! Magnifico y endoctrino en boxeo!!!
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 08:48:25 PM
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Neal Cross:
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Phenomenal work, Springs! The web is flooded with accolades for Pacquiao right now, and still your eloquent approach brushes away all the repetition like so much dust. It must be that Pacquiao is being rewarded for religious vigilance. The moment he spends meditating in the corner should inspire the cynics. Some force is stood firmly behind him, as nothing else can explain his feat here. There were those who saw him winning before it was actualized, but to never betray a hint of strain in the exertion was otherworldly. He can absorb the punch of a true welterweight. Now any question in that vein has been resolved. The fans are demanding the match with Mayweather, to finalize pound for pound supremacy. Pacquiao's performance against Cotto has made the prospect of that meeting far more fascinating.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 09:08:17 PM
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rey paez:
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Manny has already the scalp of more thgan ten world champions sir! And he rose to the top from bottom not unlike Robinson levelling at the top. Manny is trully comparable to Ali and Robinson and he is greater than Robinson! Why? he is more popular worldwide an d more achievements as a person outside of boxing and more loved by people from all walks of life... and he is not fivished yet! Thanks for a great arcicle.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 09:18:13 PM
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DarkCloud:
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Best read so far....I even created a thread in Pacland for this article...
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 09:25:38 PM
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isidro:
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It doesn't matter even if manny will not attain the glorious achivements of the likes of Robinson in the past,the positive effects of pacquiao's genuine love in helping himself,family,neighbors,provincemate,countrymen,people of the world,isn't it so good?GOD's grace thru small seedlings multiply exponentially,provided in a fertile ground.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 09:25:56 PM
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Anonymous user:
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this is the greatest article! for my idol....
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 09:31:24 PM
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Fe'Roz :
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Radam, Thank you, my most experienced and knowledgeable brother. You have and continue to inform and teach from the perspective of history and experience. I always read your posts, whether they teach or over-reach. From camp to the ring, from contacts in the gyms to contracts for the fights, I always appreciate your insights. And your humor. This year we sparred over Ali , Vitali, BPTSD and, best of all, the merits of the right deodorant. So I will wear your '07 crown with the greatest respect.....and the utmost confidence....when my arm is raised. pc
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 09:39:04 PM
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Ingming Aberia:
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That's correct. The one thing about Sugar Ray Robinsons's career record. But if one takes a closer look, he will find that more than half of Robinson's opponent's, like his contemporary great boxers and those who preceded them, would look like in today's standards as sparring partners. We have the facts and we have the details here:
pacmandgoat.ws
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 09:42:57 PM
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GEORGE:
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I love the line- Pacquiao ruins you blueprint but then adds injury to insult by crashing the drafting table over your head.
Manny may not be the greatest but surely he's one of them, he can't duplicate Robinson's record and the number of belts he won but he accomplished what Robinson's did not. 7 world titles in as many weight divisions with 4 lineal title, started his career as 105 lbs and dominated them all up to the 145 lbs. Fought elite fighters such as Morales, Barrera, Marquez, Hatton, De la Hoya, and Cotto.
Manny is one of a kind. He deserves every accolade in the world. He can't replace King Arthur's place in the round table of the knights but he has place in there.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 09:43:17 PM
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Aris:
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You got good article.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 09:50:32 PM
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Fe'Roz @ FrankZ:
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Of course we can and should agree to disagree.... but the fact is I do agree with your assessment. Manny's growth is absolutely due to his athletic abilities combined with a willingness to listen, learn and the discipline to put in the hard work to incorporate his lessons. However, we both know that all of those attributes and/or virtues can be found in lesser less -blessed pugilists. And that is where I believe Manny is special. He is all that and yet still..truly All That. He is that uncommon, once in a generation, combination of gifts, skills and virtues all rolled into a fistic fury. And no, it is not lost on me one bit that Freddie Roach has been both mentor and director of Manny's remarkable ascent. Credit due to both men for forging a union of mutual respect, setting aside egos and such, and working together toward a common goal. Being the best. Without Freddie there would be Manny....but not the one we see and know. A great talent and great fighter without a great corner is not a great thing. If you need confirmation, look no further than Miguel's battered face.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 09:51:31 PM
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ton:
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Reply to DAVID, and I quote him, "Manny. Outside of the ring he's a model citizen;".
NOPE. He loves gambling, and he has lost so much; he has been linked to 3 women now, outside of his marriage and loving wife, and one bore his child; He's involved in cockfighting and raises 2,000 fighting cocks which doesn't bode well with animal lovers; I'm sure he has more skeletons in his closet that will glow in many Halloweens to come. In general, Maanny is a good guy with good inenetions, but has little control over worldly things which he has only been introduced recently with the avalanche of money all of a susdden, and money drives one to indulge in gambling, womanizing and the likes.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 09:56:24 PM
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brownsugar,..:
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thanks for the comments everyone,.. lets hope this fight gets off the ground so the real trash talk can begin...
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 10:21:43 PM
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WOW:
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Super duper article. Speechless.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 10:24:09 PM
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vince:
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im taking note of your name- you brilliant writer! Your family name sounds Filipino.. Are you?
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 10:24:59 PM
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MisterLee:
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Beautiful, I almost cried when reading this. Almost as good as any symphony, play, or movie you can ever experience. Demands a reread, good every time you read it, find something new every time you read it. Great stuff Springs! You earned your p4p spot on my writer's list! (says crappy poster to professional writer ** ) pc!
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 10:32:16 PM
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Fe'Roz :
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@ Ton, i hope you realize that cockfighting in certain parts of the world are common and accepted cultural practice. I do know, however, that Isaiah for one will be very happy to hear that Manny enjoys his cockfighting in a pit......and not in bed. Myself, I don't care what fighters do and/or don't do outside the ring as long as it doesn't injure or harm others. I do care that they are prepared and ready for combat when they enter the squared circle.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 10:32:45 PM
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Fe'Roz :
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Springs Toledo, you do pen some beautiful words. This piece is exquisite. Mailer and Oates......make room for Mr. Toledo. Thank you
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 10:36:21 PM
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MisterLee:
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Manny's offense... never have i seen him put these together: jab, left cross to the belly, right hook up top. Just does it soooo dang fast! then he'll throw like 3 more hooks attached to that, or 3-4 straight punches and end it with a hook or cross. So amazing... or when manny does windmill punches and just bangs the body... it's beautiful as it is so explosive, fast, coordinated and in control, and just a shock to the system. Like the "gaps" in the Cotto's awareness were like manny would circle to his own right and would be 6 inches away from cotto. Cotto may notice he's getting turned, but as manny passes by he'll plant his feet and throw 6-7 unanswered punches before Cotto tries to get his bearings. Just soo beautiful... Freddie was right that Cotto would barely touch manny, tho he got banged a little bit, not enough to hurt him. @ Fe'roz i feel willingness to learn is better than any talent a fighter can have. Look at taylor, he levelled off even as talented as he was, he's stubborn and close minded. Same with cotto, if cotto had a real trainer, he would have had a fighting chance. I think willingness to learn separates the really good from the great (look at jordan! he has 3 times the skill of most superstars, 2 times the work ethic, and 5 times the humility!) Holler!
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 10:38:44 PM
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ATM:
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great,great article!!!
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 10:54:45 PM
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gerogell:
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Great Article result Great Writer. Keep up the good work.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 10:59:40 PM
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Green:
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Great piece!..
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 11:16:10 PM
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Cons:
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i like Manny, i think he's up there although not at the very top. Cotto i think is a great figther, honestly it scared me a bit knowing pac will figth cotto, cotto being a hard hitter as his record shows.
i also believe that manny is being over praised, yes even as a filipino i think its a bit too much. but i think that is because not just of the record, because as you guys have said many have better accomplishments than pac, but i think it is his CHARISMA. He's humble, great work ethic, his countrymen love him as well as people from other nations.
floyds defense is top notch, i wont argue with that, and i believe if pac wont be able to break that, then pbf will shake pacs rythym. but one of the things i dont like about floyd is his big mouth, trash talkin, being undefeated and such, geez, lets see him go to UFC and use his mouth there :)
floyd thinks he's the best right, so why fight small marquez with 2lbs over the limit? 600k is not much if you can come in bigger and stronger as opposed to dehydrated. JMM is smaller than him, yet he chose to pay than go to steam bath?
i wanna see floyd fight this uhm, Paul Williams is it? but i guess floyd wont, because he's all about the money, and thats what i like about manny, its not just about the money.
PBF, go to 150 something and fight bigger guys. or figth fair at least, zab was doin good until he got hit between the legs
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 11:23:10 PM
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Corleone:
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Wonderful and poetic article. very well written article. =)
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 11:50:50 PM
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ambrocio:
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HAIL MR. TOLEDO, FULL OF GRACE. Many thanks to you for this article.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 11:55:25 PM
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Rudge:
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This article is to Boxing what "Boys of Summer" is to Baseball, seminal. Should be expanded into a book.
Wednesday Nov 18, 2009 11:57:08 PM
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Anonymous user:
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very nice article springs. keep it up.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 12:25:19 AM
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rey reyes:
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Excellent!! This is the only article about manny pacquiao's win that i was not able to skip reading even a single word...Keep up!!
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 12:37:51 AM
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doubletangoromeo:
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man....are you the reincarnation of the poets of ....ANTIQUITY? you have not only earned my respect....i will even grovel b4 ur ancestors. you seem to know manny more than we do, u seem to know hunger more than our writers here in the islands do.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 01:14:27 AM
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Flipgolfer:
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Wow - no additional comments needed!!!!!!!!
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 01:34:48 AM
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alexis:
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very nice piece,well said and i might say well researched column.i respect the likes of miguel cotto who fought galantly and with pride stood up to his calling and for his country like..the movie Gladiator by Russel Crowe..courage gallantry and respect...they are like knights that fight for god and country.two men who fought in the ring without the usual bickering and trash talking they have define the warriors of boxing....
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 01:42:19 AM
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wrmanuel:
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Great Article you have here! Keep it up and More Power!
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 01:45:32 AM
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kvarilla:
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a masterpice!!!! manny is a sinister armed with faith..
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 01:51:20 AM
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rhk111:
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Terrific article. One of the very best ones I have ever seen. My hats off to the writer.
'Mabuhay ka, Springs Toledo!!!'
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 02:22:19 AM
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Ed Macraig:
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A wonderfully written article! It was a great read...I liked it so much , I had to go over it a couple of times. No other boxing writer was able to 'deconstruct' the great Manny Pacquiao as you did here, Mr. Toledo. What I appreciate as well were the allusions to great philosophers of old and how the Pacman fluidly works with his equally great 'master' - the inimitable FreddieRoach.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 02:29:43 AM
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paul mark feranil:
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you've put manny pacquaio in a better light. even touching his religion and his mindset. do you really think manny pacquiao is only beginning?
can his achievements be made without comparison?
for me it is not about his being a boxer, but his charisma even outside of the ring, bringing with him humility even at the peak of popularity.
citing himself as an "ordinary fighter" might reveal an area of his humanity where only few who walks the "narrow road" has or should i say, choose to have. that is, to live a life beyond this life.
can i say that pacquiao's legacy will go beyond the sport which he revives? it could be. i am a filipino. i must say if the pacquaio that we see on the ring - hurting but fights back and aggressively dismantles his enemies, humble in the face of his enemies, not relying on his strength but on the one up above, fighting nice and clean, giving all that he got - i hope, amidst all hopelessness, that that spirit will be brought in our congressional seats, senatorial seats, or even the presidential seats.
many have been doubting pacquaio, for the old adage of the thomases is "seeing is believing". can we, for once like pacquiao, live in a world where "believing is seeing"?
believing that a smaller man can topple down goliaths. or a smaller man in pacquiao topple down a bigger enemy - our country's poverty that continuesly winning and knocking down every hopefuls and would-be pacquiaos.
i hope we'll see pacquiao in a different light, not only as a boxer who tries to cement his name on the all-time greats but as a man trying to live his life the best way he believes he can - first to entertain us boxing fans, and ultimately to ease the burden of his fellow men. surely it is not for money and serving is a way of life only of those who received a much higher calling than to be filthy rich. riches has nothing to do with it. it is a childhood dream of a child who've seen life as cruel as it could be way back in gen. san.
that boy now is a man, hailed as a great fighter, now fighting a different fight - into our system - to entertain us only or to wake us up that surely we can dream big for others just as he.
thanks for your write up springs.
Godbless
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 02:36:56 AM
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mike:
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You are an excellent writer writing about an amazing subject.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 02:56:58 AM
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vba:
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w0w!!! what an article..
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 03:56:32 AM
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Rory Visco:
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Darn, I could feel tears welling in my eyes as I read your piece, dear sir. It is not only beautiful but heartwarming and totally human and totally unbiased. You did not praise Manny just because he has to be praised, but you explained why he has to be praised, yet without being too biased. Now the world knows and sees why Manny is all smiles and is very relaxed when he enters the ring. It is because he knows that the Lord our God is behind him every step of the way and would protect him from harm and emerge victorious yet full of human compassion toward his opponent. And most of all, he was able to provide, bottomline, the kind of rock-solid, no-holds-barred entertainment to paying fans in the arena and in their living rooms who expect to be entertained by this sport, no matter how brutal it may be. Thank God for bringing your talent to us, dear sir. May your tribe increase!
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 04:29:25 AM
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kimozi:
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Wow!!! what a story, great job spring..very deep and concise..
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 06:02:53 AM
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Beej:
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Wonderful, wonderful article and excellent writing.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 06:05:10 AM
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snippet:
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hubris.
i agree.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 06:26:20 AM
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arbee:
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I almost cried reading your article Toledo sir. How I hope that one good writer like you will also take notice that what Manny is doing in the ring, his movements, is a very basic basketball players move. If you're a good basketball player you can anticipate his faking head movements but good for him nobody among his opponents has the mental frame of a basketball player that's why they have hard time framing him up.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 06:47:24 AM
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Nick Matthew:
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Excellent article! Very well structured and extremely intellectually worded out. I felt like I was reading a high level history book at some points....
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 06:48:05 AM
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Basilio:
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Brilliant writing Toledo. Brilliant.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 07:03:07 AM
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chris s.:
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awesome....awesome.....awesome....and awesome again...this is by far the most awesome article i have read about pacquaio...the author perfectly captured manny pacquiao's true essence. great job. thank you very much. God bless....
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 11:31:22 AM
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mojo:
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wow!!! nice article really touch my heart and my soul as a person.everything you say inspire me and really appreciate that you wrote a very good article.....just want to say keep up the good work and have good health and god bless you and your family!!
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 12:23:39 PM
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Frank Z:
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The thing is, i'm hesitant to call anyone the best, and this is no beef with what pacquiao, mayweather, or mosley or anyone else has done, but the game is such that matchups cannot happen often enough for all the top guys to fight teach other. remember nate campbell was calling out pac a while back, and you still have to wonder how he'd do against bradley. mayweather's would-be matchups are well followed, and mosley has also avoided guys like paul williams and even joshua clottey. is manny pacquiao the best at 140? probably, but we'll never know for sure cause ther'e a lot of top guys he'll never fight.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 02:04:24 PM
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Solomon:
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Very well said! Im impressed on your article..full of sense and well balanced.
"Manny’s pugilistic pedigree summons the gold of yesterday to overcome the iron of today."
I like this qoute.
Good job Spring...
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 02:10:20 PM
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FLHurricane:
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"he smiles and waves on his way to battle dragons". haha great line and so true, the only fighter that comes out with a grin on his face instead of the look to intimidate..
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 02:39:56 PM
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#1 PacFan "Pacquiao #3 on ATG list":
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@Ali, Manny Pacquiao ON MY ATG LIST is #3! I wasn't asking you were he stood in that category. I already know you aren't going to consider him top 10. I think Roach is only saying that because he knows May aint going to come down in weight so he is sending a message that you have to pay to play;
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 03:05:21 PM
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swift:
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I love Manny as much as the next guy, he's not my favorite fighter, but I enjoy how he fights. That being said I cringe everytime I hear someone say that he's better than Sugar Ray Robinson! There is no way in hell, that he is better than Sugar Ray Robinson. We had this same discussion a few years ago about Roy Jones Jr., who I think was a great fighter. But Roy is not Sugar Ray Robinson!! I think the people who disagree really need to find some footage on this guy and look at who he beat throughout his career and then you won't be saying such stupid comments. I know manny is the new guy in town as far as being the g.o.a.t, but let him clean out 140 or 147 first...
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 03:16:39 PM
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Frank Z@ #1 Pacfan:
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manny pacquiao is probably the best p4p fighter of the decade, but i don't think he comes near the top of all time bro. you're talking about both the sugar rays, hank armstrong, joe louis, roberto duran, kid gavilan, carlos monzon, marvin hagler? this is not hating on pacquiao at all, but boxing back when it was a legit mainstream sport had soooo many top level combatants.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 04:19:44 PM
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#1 PacFan "Pacquiao #3 on ATG list"Standing firm!:
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@Frank Z, fair opinion, but we are talking about Manny Pacquiao here. Who took on the best possible competetion from 112-147. I will take away the 135 for you since Diaz was not considered the best in the division but I think we can agree Manny would've dismantled J. Diaz if they squared off. That's six legit weight divisions! I think some are really missing the picture here. I know he may never surpass Ali, Robinson, Louis, but I certainly believe he tops the likes of Duran, Leonard, Hagler, and Hearns.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 04:53:07 PM
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Real Talk blown away !!!:
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Whew !!! Another Toledo Epic Masterpiece !!! Give this man writer of the year !!! This is maybe the first time I read the article and skipped ALL the comments........ever ! One has to be in awe of what happened Saturday ! I mean you make excuses about the weight draining Cotto this and that, but he agreed to it, an abandon the jab. He was too slow to do what we call ( clutch) with Pac. That means to exchange. Toledo painted a masterpiece an I really don't want to tamper with it. Manny Pacquiao is one of the greatest of all time, the body of work speaks for itself. One thing I know, Floyd is going to be a harder fight. Cotto got hurt and start doing the Cha Cha or whatever. Stupid! The man learned nothing from the Tony fight. #1 not exactly in this order, He should've tied Pac up and made the rounds shorter instead of longer. #2 Jab was getting of first, he left that on the dresser. #3 He try to go to war with ferociousness personified ! #4 He was getting tattooed and kept backing up letting his opponent close the distance ,find his range an unleash a barrage of fuselage. (if I spelled it right) Even if he didn't do these things he still had problems with a guy with blinding handspeed and peak human condition who is fearless in the ring and will not stop coming. You have to stop Pacquiao to beat him at this weight an I don't think Floyd can do it. I think Floyd will get outworked an overwhelmed. That's no disrespect to Floyd, but Manny comes hard like a Typhoon and rains down like a Monsoon. Enjoy it while it last folks. I watched the Cotto vs. Clottey fight an it seemed like slow motion, a lot of other fights look that way when I compared. This dude must be training like an animal. Long live the P4P king !!! Floyd put it down and Manny picked it up. If you want it back Floyd ...you got to take it . Prove you're still the man like Ali did. After watching what I watched how can I not say Pacquiao is the p4p king !!! Think about it p4p.......every pound added has been tnt. That's my story an I'm sticking to it. Prove me wrong, make me a beleiver. Dueces
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 05:11:17 PM
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swift:
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@#1pacfan, I have been talking about pacman since he fought Ledwaba in 2001. I really think they have carefully put him in with brawlers and sluggers. This is my only pet peeve with Pacquiao's resume. Take a look for yourself. Zahir Raheem beat Morales, but Manny fought Morales and never even considered Raheem. How about Nate Campbell after he beat the crap out of J. Diaz? I am not knocking the fights he's had, but it just seems like he sidesteps guys that we know would give him trouble. If you look on his resume you will not see one pure boxer on it. Manny is a very tough fighter, but he can be outboxed and I think his people know that. I'm not sure this version of PBF can do it, because as he's gotten a little older and his ego has grown to unbelievable heights, his punch output isn't like it used to be and it will do him in against a busy fighter. Think about, if delahoya would have been a little more busy he would have beaten mayweather.
ps - I can't put manny over duran, sugar ray or hearns. Have you seen the murderers they fought in there career??
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 05:40:18 PM
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Frank Z@#1 Pacfan:
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I mean you're absolutely entitled to your opinion, but we're talking about robinson who started out something like 128-1, who ended his career with 110 KOs, who knocked out all time great middleweights and welterweights, and who under current rules would have won the light heavyweight title, when there was only 1 belt per division, he could have rule 147, 160, 175 during his time. henry armstrong who was probably robbed of winning the middleweight belt to go along with his 126, 135, 147 belts, coulda had 4 belts when there were only 8 to win. yeah pac's fought some of the toughest fights, but he's avoided guys too, it's not his fault but it's still happened. what about shane mosley? what about joan guzman at the lower weights? why didn't he fight juan diaz before marquez took him out? we can say now that he woulda destroyed diaz which is probably true, but why not do it for certain? the game of boxing, the politics of boxing, doens't allow someone to really prove that they're the best. all we can really do is speculate, and the p4p lists are biased too, no one mentions ivan calderon anymore, one of the slickest and skilled dudes in the game, but he's only 108 lbs and doens't knock guys out, and doens't talk a lot, so he doesn't get the hype. joan guzman solidly outboxed soto, who's considered the man at 130, and he hasn't had a shot at pac (though some of that's his fault).
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 06:22:29 PM
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Frank Z@ 2Frank:
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he's a true welter but he didn't fight him at welterweight. the limit's 147, not 145. and what floyd did has nothing to do with what i was talking about.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 06:30:04 PM
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josh:
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Great article! You did DECONSTRUCT the ICON of MANNY PACQUIAO. more writings.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 06:39:07 PM
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Fe'Roz :
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When we are talking about ATG we always find ourselves in the same place. Splitting hairs. Trying to subjectively apply all kinds of objective criteria, none of which leads to much more than an consensus at best......or simply one's opinion at worst. maybe it's time we create a new category. All Time Great Of My Lifetime aka ATGOML. Because in the end, that is about the best determination one can make. I love history as much as I love boxing but I can not contextualize everything that happened in the past and compare it to what is happening today. Sure, WWII was bigger than Afghanistan. And Louis was bigger that Leonard. But the magnitude of the former is by any standard immeasurably greater than the latter. Louis was to boxing what the War was to us all. A sea change in our lives. And as our lives have changed, so has boxing. TV replaces Radio and the stakes increase. The visibility of the game expands manifold....and with it the exposure of the fighters. Growing networks and even less expensive TV allowed fights to be seen free in virtually every household. I can assure you that more people got to watch Ali than did Louis. And not just once but over and over. SRL and Oscar were media stars before they were boxing greats. Iron Mike was famous in places he could never imagine. And so it goes. I think you get my drift. We can only judge what we can see. And to this fan of the sweetest science, Manny is definitely at or near the top of ATGOML
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 06:43:25 PM
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ali @ Frank Z:
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Damn homie you make some hellva points Guzman ain't no joke and I know people might be laughing at that statement but I know what im talking about. Im not saying he can beat Pac but he has a style that would have givin him problems but Fredie Roach is a very smart Dude. That kind of reminds me of what Mayweather did with the Baldmir Margacheato situation Baldmir had the belts but Margacheato was the better fighter Guzman is better then David Diaz but Diaz had a belt even Juan Diaz was better but he didn't fight him. I wounder does the Pac fans think he took the easy way out.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 07:06:26 PM
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rene l. deypalan:
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Perfectly explain the style of Manny in boxing. Indeed he is very hard to read that's why all obstacle in boxing he can overcome. He can read his opponent perfectly that's why he ca make adjustments easy. Manny gave emphases on training, because once re reach his pinnacle in training, the fight for him is easy. Thursday Nov. 19 2009 05:13 PM.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 07:14:46 PM
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RainyDay1:
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Congratulations for not only for an incredibly well written article, but also reaching out and capturing the humanness behind this inspiring fighter. I loved this article, and look forward to reading your next insightful piece(s)!!!
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 07:18:48 PM
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ali:
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I'll tell you what fighters need to stop thinking Pac can't take it to the body cause of what happen to him some years of ago. He's proven that $hit ain't the case no more if Cotto couldn't hurt him to the body chances are no welterweight can.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 07:19:34 PM
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Frank Z@ Fe'Roz:
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very true we can only judge ATGOML, but i'd like to make a slight edit, All Time Great Of My Life Seen, because of so many boxers now who don't get exposure because of the sanctioning bodies mess and athletic commissions mess. the reason i always have to lean with older time fighters from the 30s-60s is cause they fought everyone and fought so often. ray robinson lost to lamotta and rematched him 3 weeks later, took a tuneup fight in between. you have to have an all around game and sharp mind to do stuff like that otherwise you would not survive half as many fights as they did. even lamotta who was seen as just a facefirst hard chinned fighter you can tell that he slips and rolls with a lot of the shots he takes. he said himself that sparring with heavyweights taught him to take shots, but sparring with lightweights taught him not to get away from shots. you're absolutely right the country's media and economy has a huge direct impact on boxing, most boxers come up poor and media is money. but the sad ironic thing is, as tv broadcasted more boxing in the 50s, fewer people went to local venues to see shows live, that meant less business for local clubs and gyms. a couple of really famous gyms in the NY area closed in the early 60s cause of that, and with that you lose knowledge and breeding ground for champs. boxing gets in its own way more and more now than before, even when the mafia was controlling it they fixed fights but didn't fix entire ranking systems.as I know that you know, it's a clusterf*** right now with promoter's egos and fear for their own wallets, and sanctioning bodies who rank people based on who gives them bribes. it's impossible to be a pro boxer or even amateur boxer without being affected byt his corruption for better or worse. that is why pacquiao it's hard for m e to put him in an ATG list, cause he's in an era that's an all time stinker for boxing. once again, not his fault, but the game's. although if you want to argue manny's the greatest that most of us havfe seen in live action, you wont' get much argument from me.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 07:28:47 PM
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barasang:
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IMO, it is not necessary to compare great boxers as to where they are placed in relation to each other in terms of boxing achievement.
Every great boxer has his own era to rule because their greatness was earned under different circumstances.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 08:34:00 PM
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Frank Z@ Ali:
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it's just much easier for pac to get a pass from fans thank mayweather because pac doesn't talk trash and he's shown when he's actually in the ring that he's not afraid. mayweather's not afraid either but his style being so pragmatic makes people who just want to see blood think he is.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 09:32:25 PM
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Uzisero:
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Not really a fan of this site, just followed a link that directed me here.
Don't know much about "boxing" writing either, but I do know when I see a very well written, researched, and constructed article.
"Springs Toledo" = "Toledo, Springs"???
Whoever he/she/they are, the author/s have earned their paycheck (and then some) with this one.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 09:55:56 PM
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Mark Dimalanta:
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Hi Springs one of the best summations I have ever read about anyone. You shoul dbe Manny's Publicist.
A Job well done.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 09:56:50 PM
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Vincent Pagobo:
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We are talking about all time boxing greats whom most of us haven't had the chance of seeing them personally fights in the ring. We should be very thankful that as of the moment we are not talking and dreaming about yesterday. We must very thankful that we HAVE MANNY PACQUIAO right now that made boxing alive again. The question would, what will happen about the sport if Manny finally retire?
See the big picture people.. We have right now the one of the top 5 all time great.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 11:26:12 PM
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Anon:
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What a beauty! Keep on writing please. This is a masterpiece!
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 11:39:49 PM
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Vincent Pagobo:
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We are talking about all time boxing greats whom most of us haven't had the chance of seeing them personally fights in the ring. We should be very thankful that as of the moment we are not talking and dreaming about yesterday. We must very thankful that we HAVE MANNY PACQUIAO right now that made boxing alive again. The question would, what will happen about the sport if Manny finally retire?
See the big picture people.. We have right now the one of the top 5 all time great.
Thursday Nov 19, 2009 11:57:09 PM
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MisterLee:
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Frank Z = lyrical suga shane mosley! punches from all angles, great chin! great boxer! Real talk, aka- "Bhop" is keeping it real and giving credit where it's due! I'm LTP- i throw in volume, hit or miss... do any of you wonder, since guzman is on the table, if manny would have a harder time in lightweight? In lightweight, the fighters still have power, but are faster and more equipped to deal with pacquiao's spee.d. Obviously there are no big stars in lightweight, but would lightweights be able to handle pacquiao's speed better, would they be more skillful? After all, diaz did better than oscar and hatton, so who couldn't say a better lightweight couldnt' have hurt pacquiao or given him fits? I do know i've seen amir khan get handled by pacquiao in sparring, and amir khan is fast even by light weight's standard... but still... just wondering. I wouldn't mind seeing a unification with Bradley, but maybe too much weight fluctuation is bad for him! All we know is. cotto better think harder next time in having TWO sparring partners that we never heard of . Anyone know of what's going on in the welterweight and chief sparring partner's, rashad holloway's, career? I've seen him work out on youtube and he moves and punches a bit like pacquiao, quick with the swarming combinations. If he been duking it out with pacquiao full time, he must be pretty good! As pacquaio has a tendency to break ribs and cut up and knock out sparring partners. Holler!
Friday Nov 20, 2009 01:40:23 AM
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Donnie:
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Manny ran away from home at fourteen to spare his mother one more mouth to feed. He exchanged real poverty for worse poverty –in an act of sacrifice.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 03:48:51 AM
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Leibstandarte AH:
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great article man..... the thing is when manny fights, its so exiting to watch and full of energy. you almost always will see a knockdown..
Friday Nov 20, 2009 06:27:33 AM
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oskar:
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Manny in the past is not the Manny of today. Manny's fight with Cotto proves that Manny is a more complete fighter than yesterday with power in both hands unlike before when he had his first fight at lightweight the pacman just beginning to have his foot work with only one hand power shot no defensive bobbing and weaving just yet... As of today, no one can handle Manny from 147 down, I think even 154 would still be reachable.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 07:26:54 AM
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#1 PacFan "Pacquiao #3 on ATG list"Standing firm!:
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This is directly at SWIFT, though you may think you aren't knocking on Manny your post speaks for itself. You sound like the same pathethic critics who think Manny is avoiding black fighters. Are we talking about the same Raheem who got schooled in his own court by Rocky Juarez who is a slugger by nature. Or the same one you say that got beat by a old and washed up Freitas? Give me a break styles makes fights. You say that Morales lose to him but you forgot to mention that Morales fought him at Lightweight. I can't remember a time when Morales ever won a fight at Lightweigh. Can you? Let's talk about Nate Campbell. I think it's safe to say that J. Diaz was overrated. The guy was tailor made for Campbell who did get tagged but by a feather-fisted Diaz. Manny would've destroyed the Baby Bull and you know it. One strong facts I have for you is that Campbell lost twice to an unknown by the name of Rob Peden both by KO. Then Peden later got schooled by Barerra who Manny demolished twice. It's funny how a fighter all of a sudden gets recognized as a big threat when they haven't proven a thing. I would bet my daughter's soul that Manny would put on a clinic with those guys you mentioned. They aren't even on the big market why would Manny waste his time with those guys.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 12:17:56 PM
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#1 PacFan "Pacquiao #3 on ATG list"Standing firm!:
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@Frank Z, you are entitled to your own opinion as well but you can't use his 128-1 fight record as a sole reason why he is the P4P great. Remember that many of his fights were 10 rounders except for the title fights. He fought a lot but not all them guys were good fighters. We just can't compare with the total amount of fights.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 12:26:13 PM
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Frank Z@ #1PacFan:
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Not all good fighters? what makes you think that? just because he fought so often that means he must have taken a lot of garbage fights? even if that were true, let's run down the list: lamatta, gavilan, henry armstrong, graziano, fritzie zivic, randy turpin. manny has beaten modern legends like morales, barrera, marquez, cotto, destroyed de la hoya and hatton, but who else can you look at and REALLY say "wow he beat a once in an era boxer". yes he had a lot of 10 rounders but they were also mixed with 12 rounders and 15 rounders for title fights, and he had his share of title fights. remember there was only one belt to win at the time, so he had to go through a lot more contenders if he lost the belt or moved to a new division. manny was able to get a belt in just his second fight above 140, and get the ring mag 140 belt with only one fight there and at 135. think about it man if there were so many all timers in the era of robinson, what makes you think that the non titleholders would suddenly be garbage level fighters? everyone was grabbing for that one title, competition was viciously brutal. a lot of those guys he fought as "tune ups" may not have been good for back then but today could get belts in the alphabet cluster we got going on today, and people would use that as reasons to praise manny if he were to collect their trinkets. so no, i can't put manny or anyone else from the last 25 years into the all time top 10 list even, and i blame the promoters, and sanctioning bodies for that.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 01:14:33 PM
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ali @ Frank Z:
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Great points about the the all-time greats when your 128-1 and fighting for one belt says alot!!!!! wow!!!!!! nobody greater then Sugar Ray Robinson.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 01:57:34 PM
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#1 PacFan "Pacquiao #3 on ATG list"Standing firm!:
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@Frank Z, I never said they were garbage fighters I plainly said there weren't that good. Lamatta, Gavilan, Armstrong, Graziano were all great fighters but you can't honestly say that the majority of his opponents are in the same level.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 02:27:27 PM
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Frank Z@#1 Pacfan:
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weren't that good compared to who? think about it man you're talking about ray robinson one of the faces of boxing at the time, who was getting praised during his career from fellow all time greats, everyone would want to see him in a challenged fight . there's no reason for him to just knock over a bunch of nobodies until later on his career when he went broke, even then he was beating guys like basilio and fullmer. the majority of his opponents werne't on his level but with the exception of charley burley he fought (and beat) all of the top guys during his time, and it's a who's who of all timers. how can ANY boxer, not just pacquiao, have a resume that comes close to that?
Friday Nov 20, 2009 02:46:24 PM
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Frank Z @#1 Pacfan:
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edit on the last post, i meant how can any modern boxer have a resume close to that.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 02:53:27 PM
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#1 PacFan "Pacquiao #3 on ATG list"Standing firm!:
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Believe me there were a lot of nobodies in his resume. Guys just fighting for couple of hundred dollars. From the streets where work was hard. Also you have to remember that then and now are totally different era. They were in the era of great depression. I understand that his resume will never be topped but I am saying he is among those greats.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 03:05:04 PM
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Frank Z@ #1PacFan:
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no disrespect dude but i'm gonna need you go direct me to a source on the dudes fighting for a few hundred dollars claim. also that was in the 40s and 50s, usa was out of depression by then. by you saying manny's among those greats means that you think that the guys he beat compare well with the top guys ray robinson beat?
Friday Nov 20, 2009 03:44:44 PM
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VegasReb:
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It's true.. guy's like Henry Armstrong and Sugar Robinson fought a bunch of nobody's just to make money. Henry Armstrong fought Army soldiers that were supposedly "boxing pros". But they also didn't avoid the best competition available in their eras. I said it before and i'll say it again, you can't compare fighters in different eras just from record's alone. Boxer's today wouln't even be able to touch the volume of fights the earlier greats had because boxing politics and in general have changed so much.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 04:48:52 PM
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#1 PacFan "Pacquiao #3 on ATG list"Standing firm!:
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Nope you're right I made a mistake I thought Robinson started his career around the mid 30-40s. Which was why I had the logic thinking of guys fighting for mesely paydays. Yes we can say how tough the competetion was in those times but we'll never know how great into comparison of our time. Those great fighters have had their share of great losses like the great fighters of todays era.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 04:50:40 PM
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#1 PacFan "Pacquiao #3 on ATG list"Standing firm!:
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@swift, you said "I'm not sure this version of PBF can do it, because as he's gotten a little older and his ego has grown to unbelievable heights, his punch output isn't like it used to be and it will do him in against a busy fighter." It sounds to me like you've got excuse for Floyd if he loses against Pac. You say he is much older and his punch output isn't the same? Since when has May's punch output differs to today from previous fights? The man doesn't throw enough and has never in his career. Maybe you're talking about Jr. Lightweight and Lightweight. He is still in his prime and in the best shape at all times. I know we're going to hear excuses still if Floyd loses so what's the point of you Floyd fans trying to make a case?
Friday Nov 20, 2009 09:22:17 PM
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Frank Z@Kermit:
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hahaha.... nice kermit, when you're parroting stuff that floyd sr. says, you know that you need a good comeback fight in your career.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 09:58:09 PM
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Frank Z @#1 Pacfan:
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I will give you this though, if you're talking about cultural impact, in terms of how Ali is the GOAT, then yes, pacquiao is definitely an ATG to the philipines andn the rest of asia.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 09:59:02 PM
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Freddie Roach:
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Hey kermit the frog, you ever heard of supplemental vitamins and heavy duty workouts. My man is legit and all you do is hate because you don't got it like Manny. The man is a freak of nature of the top of his game so if you want to get KTFO too then get in line.
Friday Nov 20, 2009 10:01:56 PM
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swift:
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@#1 Pacfan, First of all, just because someone beats one fighter doesn't mean he will beat another, case in point Margarito beating Cotto, Cotto beating Mosley and Mosley beating Margarito. This is the Mayweather way of thinking! I don't have to fight him because he lost to someone else (margarito) but I will fight Baldomir who lost to everyone... I like Manny, but for you to sit here and say he's better than a guy who fought and beat 11 hall of famers and fought every style fighter, not just the style that makes him look great!
Friday Nov 20, 2009 10:28:02 PM
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MisterLee:
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Man... why are pro boxers weighing in on this TSSU? Sheesh man, i mean kermit boxed great agst angulo, but let's say it, why are boxers coming on board NOW (this site has been around a while) NOW to disprove manny when probably like Lance Armstrong strict drug tests are being administered and they're under the watchful... esp. in eve of the mosley "scandal" and the margarito hand wrap thing, both issues going into the Janurary fight... i guess some pple will never want to believe, and some pple are jealous and just can't believe a normal person can accomplish superhuman feats that seem impossible. All I can say to Kermit besides that is : "It was an F'n headbutt!!!" Holler!!!
Friday Nov 20, 2009 10:32:19 PM
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swift:
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@#1 Pacman, Did you not read my post? I said I'm not a Floyd fan, I am a PW fan. I was rooting for Manny to win the fight against Cotto, so what the hell are you talking about? Why would I make excuses for floyd, when I don't even like floyd?
Friday Nov 20, 2009 10:54:27 PM
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MisterLee @ swift:
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LTP! That's another guy who would fight ANYBODY anywhere on their TURF! Holler!
Friday Nov 20, 2009 11:59:27 PM
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MIsterLee:
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Glad to see someone who's not just a fan of manny, floyd, or cotto. You gotta really love the science to love ltp or winky wright or bhop. Holler!
Saturday Nov 21, 2009 12:00:09 AM
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MIsterLee:
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Tho radam is not a big fan of his volume style punching, but it's similar to my volume style typing! holler!!
Saturday Nov 21, 2009 12:00:33 AM
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the Roast:
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Nice one MisterLee!!
Saturday Nov 21, 2009 12:01:25 AM
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MisterLee:
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Just keeping up with you, Seinfeld!
Saturday Nov 21, 2009 12:02:46 AM
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Brod Omar:
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Well said!!!! Excellent Article! Manny indeed is the greatest! I am proud to be a filipino because of such men like Manny.
I admire Manny for being religious and humble. he has all the blessings from God..but I have some fears that he might lose it because bad luck might come to him...and what is it?,,,His mother, Aling Dionisa...once holding the rosary before, now the microphone of Showbiz. I hope she won't dare to hold the other young microphone. It is bad luck!!
We all believe "What goes up, goes down" and "In every man success there's a woman, how about the opposite?"
I wish PacMom stays at home, stay with grandchildren and continue pray for our Hero.
What can you say about?
Saturday Nov 21, 2009 01:45:33 AM
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1:
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Always felt the "Art of War" was vastly overrated. Or to put it a better way, why a whole book when fellow philosopher "Wee" Willie Keeler summed up the whole book in four words. "Hit'em where they ain't".
Saturday Nov 21, 2009 10:27:15 AM
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Mosley:
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I don't think Manny Pacquiao is the best fighter at welterweight because he didn't beat the best welterweight in Miguel Cotto. If Pacquiao wanted to fight the number one welterweight, he would have fought me first - he wouldn't have fought Cotto. I refuse to continue chasing fights with Pacquiao. I already said what I said and I already did what I had to do to as far as telling him that I want to fight him. It's up to Pacquiao now to step up and say 'I want to fight you' and I'll make it happen,".
Saturday Nov 21, 2009 10:47:32 AM
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#1 PacFan "Pacquiao #3 on ATG list"Standing firm!:
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@swift, that's what you're saying...because Nate Campbell beat Diaz means he can beat Pac and Raheem also. Boy you sure think like Mayweather. Then why did you bring up Raheem and Campbell then? You said he sidestepped those guys which makes me believe that you think he can't handle them guys. I never said he was better than Robinson or Ali I clearly said he among those greats. Let's get this clear everyone! ATG list: 1 Ali 2 Robinso 3a Leonard 3b Pacquiao 4 Louis 5 Armstrong.
Saturday Nov 21, 2009 12:36:25 PM
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#1 PacFan "Pacquiao #3 on ATG list"Standing firm!:
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I've seen Raheem fight and he can't box that good. I mentioned Juarez because he's a pressure fighter with not a lot of movement in his game. Manny is a pressure fighter who is underrated for his boxing ability. Don't tell me if Juarez can beat Raheem that Manny can't do the same? Campbell did a hell of a job against Diaz but he was a standing target for him. You really think Manny is going to stand there. If Campbell decides to pressure him we already know what would happen. Campbell is not known to fight on his toes he was only able turn Diaz all night.
Saturday Nov 21, 2009 12:45:46 PM
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#1 PacFan "Pacquiao #3 on ATG list"Standing firm!:
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@swift, I know that one fighter can't beat the other just because he had success against the other. I stated before that Mosley who lost to Cotto is the most difficult fight for Manny because he is much stronger, better boxer, and takes a better punch. But I'm changing all that because I think Mosley can't excute one simple gameplan and that's to stick to boxing. Mosley tends to engage more often than he should(I don't blame him). First it was Mosley then Mayweather who were the most difficult but now it's the other way around.
Saturday Nov 21, 2009 02:08:21 PM
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Frank Z@#1 Pacfan:
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Come on dude we all know that pac's an amazing boxer, but you're seriously letting your emotions get the better of you on this one. better than joe louis? the guy that even freddie roach called the most technically pure a stand up boxer as they come? better than henry armstrong the guy who beat ALL of the best featherweights, lightweights, and welterweights in his day and should have beaten the middleweight champ if it weren't for questionable officials giving him a draw? that'd b elike if pacquiao had unified all the belts from 112-147 lbs.
Saturday Nov 21, 2009 02:15:47 PM
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Editor Mike@1:
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Had to do a quick Wiki search on Mr Keeler. Brooklyn boy! Full of common sense!
Saturday Nov 21, 2009 03:08:42 PM
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1@ Editor Mike:
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I mean really Editor Mike. If your army is big, lead them to believe you're small. If they're defending the left, attack on the right. Guy gets a book for this? I guess 2000 years ago, if you went to a book publisher with an idea, any idea really, you were in. I can picture Kosta "Sun" Tzu's agent, "But you don't have any books on the "Art of War" yet! Publisher: "Lenny, It's a paragraph!" "OK, I'll have Tzu punch it up a bit!"
Saturday Nov 21, 2009 03:53:48 PM
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#1 PacFan "Pacquiao #3 on ATG list"Standing firm!:
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@Frank Z, I'm not letting my emotions get the better of me in this issue. I'm not disrepecting the past greats as many of you take it as but merely putting Manny alongside. Manny is truly a living legend of our time and I may be prematurely ranking Manny way beyond many can believe. I'm just seeing it in my eyes and I'm very sure many will also but in time. Manny will never be compared as the better fighter than greats like Ali, Robinson, Louis, or Armstrong but just hearing his name in a conversations with those would just be phenomenal.
Wednesday Nov 25, 2009 07:48:04 PM
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Radam G @ Frank Z:
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Maybe you should go and look at some of the old films on Armstrong. Thanks to God, we can views those films and see the truth as the people who were there tell us. I am from a boxing family, as I believe that you are. Armstrong got beat by the G Pinoy of that area, matter of fact, he beat Armstrong twice, but the bouts were called a win for Armstrong at welterweight and a draw at middleweight, according to people who saw those bouts. It was karma that stopped Armstrong at middleweight. And Armstrong never beat Pinoy Kid Moro. All three bouts were called draws. I am not dissing any boxers of the past or present. Oldtimers -- not including my relative -- will tell you that a lot of robberies went on back then. Even most then nowadays. Everything ain't as it seems. PacMan is equal to all the past great right up there with Sugar Ray Robinson and PacMan is better than Henry Armstrong, as no less than the great pugilist guru Manny Steward said. He is well qualified. As a kid -- he was born in the early 1940s -- he saw a prime Sugar Ray Robinson -- actual birth in 1922 -- and a not-too-far-past-his-prime Armstrong. Also being a kid champion, starting at 12-years old, Manny Steward travelled to Chicago and New York to see world championship matches, when they were not in Detriot. Las Vegas wasn't the mecca of BIG BOUTS back then, Chicago, New York and Detriot in that order ruled. If Mayweather and Pacquiao get it on, Pacquiao will turn Mayweather's goose egg in a scrambled ______! Holla!
Wednesday Nov 25, 2009 09:27:47 PM
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Chard:
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i wish all the article is written in this manner!
Wednesday Nov 25, 2009 10:06:53 PM
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Jasper Murdock:
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I respect everones opinion but honestly, honestly do some of you think that if Manny beats Mayweather he deserves to be put above Sugar Ray Robinson? It's obvious as far as impact on the sport that Ali was number 1 and by today's standards Manny has more accolades than any other boxer! However let me ask you this question, would Manny step into the ring with a premier boxer that outweighs him by 14 pounds? I mean Ray Robinson did that on a few occasions with a swarmer like Jake LaMotta. I hear people all the time say that some of the fighters were sparring partners however, they had to have some skill otherwise more of them would have ended up like Jimmy Doyle. The fighters back in those days were in a different league of there on. They fought more fights and they took more poundings. I will be brutally honest and say that I'm not a Pac-Man fan however I do have to give him his respect because he is a beast, I just wish Freddie Roach didn't have such a big ego. You don't see Nazim Richardson take credit for some of his boxers do you? He just does his job and fades into the background. However I would have loved to see a Sweet Pea vs Pac Man show down. Sighs*, in my eyes when Pernell was hungry he was way better than Floyd Jr.
Wednesday Nov 25, 2009 10:08:34 PM
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Frank Z @ Radam G:
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Manny Steward never said pac was beter than armstrong though, he only said that he was a stronger puncher. that was just to illustrate the differences in their styles. armstrong from the films i can see was a master at shifting position on the inside and finding room to slide in his hooks at close range, and to do it with nonstop motion. this basically negated any height and reach advantage taht his opponents had on him, and i think that's why he was so successful at any weight class he came across. also, are you sure that ceferino garcia was robbed against armstrong? according to the accounts i heard in the middleweight bout armstrong clearly outboxed garcia and was given a draw and then the ref suspisciously fled the ring. pacquiao has a world of ability and he's still able and willing to learn and improve, very rare for a high level boxer in his 30s, but there simply isn't the wealth of knowledge and the opportunities to improve the aspects of your game in the ring now as there were before. pacquiao has never faced a guy as defensively oriented, as quick, or as crafty as mayweather, and he still makes some basic mistakes, such as not bringnin his hands back to his face and falling off balance with his shots. mayweather is known for his ability to adapt and drag the opponent to his pace of boxing. make no mistake, manny will be in life and death against mayweather, we're talking about a taller lankier quicker slicker version of marquez. pacquiao will have to be on his A+ game to beat him. it will be a very tough fight.
Wednesday Nov 25, 2009 11:30:47 PM
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Frank Z@ #1Pacfan:
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well if you mean his impact on humanity, in the way ali did during his career, then yes i can see you comparing him to the greats.
Wednesday Nov 25, 2009 11:39:04 PM
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Radam G @ Frank Z:
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Go listen for yourself! It is very clear what Manny Steward has and is saying. His voice is on all the major boxing talking shows and podcasts. Just wait until TSS interview Manny Steward. You will hear him say it again. He has clearly and convincely called Manny Pacquiao an all time great right up there with Sugar Ray Robinson, and "can hit and move like volume-punching Armstrong could not." Armstrong was a pressure puncher with not single (knockout) punching power. "Manny can do it all. Armstrong cannot do what Manny does -- find the whole and hit with that power." Holla!
Thursday Nov 26, 2009 01:22:08 AM
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Radam G -- just spotting:
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As far as the robbery of the great Pinoy G, go and see it for yourself on Youtube. I am certain that I post it there years ago, as I have done many bouts. The robbery was so bad that it started a minor riot. Against Kid Moro, the commission change the decision from a defeat to draw after a severely bad decision. I'm getting off Hank Armstrong's case before the haters jump up in my grill and start up with your counterfeit $hit and make-believe. Holla!
Thursday Nov 26, 2009 01:30:41 AM
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Radam@ Frank Z one mo' gain!:
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The "drunken-man" attack is going to kayo Mayweather. Manny Steward said that Manny's balance is now perfect and tricky. And I see that Manny Steward is spot on because you are seeing that optical illusion that good boxers create. Mayweather is defensive, not a defensive pugilist. Like the GOAT Ali told me when I was a toddler, teen and young fighter, "running a con is a great part of the game, this way on ya' self you won't bring shame. Money May and Pops Joy May are great con men with all this poppycock about defensive geniuses. There is a great bad habit up in Money May's defense, and I'm shocked that so many boxing sharp cats are looking but not seeing. PacMan is going to knock out Money May easier than Rocky Lockridge kayoed Uncle Roger May a score and some change ago. I'll bet BIG on that one. IF, and I mean a BIG IF, Money May step up to lose that goose egg. The trick works until you know how it is done, then that is the end of the magic. Cotto was the only catchweight for Manny, not Money May can caugt a butt whupping as a full welter. Holla!
Thursday Nov 26, 2009 01:57:21 AM
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Frank Z @ Radam G:
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Are you talking about garcia or moro who got robbed? i'm about to watch the fight but from what i'm reading and already heard it was armstrong who won their first welter fight and from another account on the boxingscene dot com website it says armstrong dominated both times against garcia. moro i'm reading on boxrec only had 30 some fights, and he was schooled by barney ross right before his draw with armstrong. yeah his first "loss" to armstrong must have been dubious at best but armstrong had fought just 2 weeks before and gave him a rematch 20 days later. hey who knows maybe moro was the kryptonite to armstrong, but i don't know if that's a great example because armstrong was only 21 at the time, and also pacquiao has yet to prove he can clearly beat JMM. besides man, manny steward may be a great and knowledgeable trainer but he's not the gospel spreader. an exposed chin is an exposed chin and pacquiao lifts his chin and lunges his weight forward when he throws big combinations. he might be a great physical specimen to be able to recover quickly from that but mayweather makes his living on timing and countering. mayweather's defense does have flaws, but so does pacquiao's offense, mayweather loves to do that little rock back- counter right which he can catch pacquiao with being the lankier man if pacquiao is not careful. the main reasons i am not picking pacquiao to KO mayweather is because (1) mayweather is much more defensively focused than cotto or any of pacquiao's other opponents, will not stand in front and trade with him, and will look to see pacquiao punch first and react accordingly, and will tie up if he feels that pacquiao will catch him. (2) even if he does get hit, i've never seen mayweather buckled or shaken, when he's gotten clocked against judah and corley, his legs never looked unsteady, instead he covered up and allowed the other guy to punch himself out a bit. manny probably will not punch himself out but mayweather has proven to have a very sturdy chin, and he conditions his neck very well to absorb shots so they don't quake his legs. even jose luis castillo caught him with some HARD overhand rights and he still absorbed them and didn't waver. i said before the cotto fight and i'll say it again, cotto fell into the mental trap of saying he's the bigger stronger man, same with david diaz, oscar, hatton. pacquiao plays along with that too to get his opponents overconfident. mayweather never has relied on being more physically imposing than his opponent to win, and those kind of guys have given pacquiao the most trouble, morales in their first fight, JMM, and it is likely why they did not fight joan guzman. pacquiao has improved since his JMM fights but not to the point where he can go from gutting it out vs. JMM to destroying mayweather.
Thursday Nov 26, 2009 11:29:17 AM
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Radam G - getting ready to do the turkey jive and the high five:
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Boxrec shows the proven listed fights under the name of Kid Moro. Not the full amount that he had. Boxers -- back then and still today in other parts of the world -- fight under more than one name. Armstrong did it in the beginning of his career. So did George Walker Smith aka Walker Smith aka Sugar Ray Robinson. Since you are reading on Boxrec, go and read about Spider Black aka Fred Johnson and a lot more alias. Kid Moro -- under another name -- acutually had over 200 bouts. Enjoy that turkey eating, and if you are like me turkey around. Holla!
Thursday Nov 26, 2009 11:42:04 AM
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RG@FZ:
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Maybe you didn't see Mayweather against Jose Luis Castillo in the first bout. Money May got shaken, rocked and even touch the canvas -- took a knee and pretended that it was because of pain in the hand. Money May knows the trick and cons. Holla!
Thursday Nov 26, 2009 12:10:04 PM
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Frank Z @ Radam G:
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That wasn't against castillo, that was carlos hernandez in 2001 when he hit hernandez on the top of the head. mayweather did lose the first castillo fight in my eyes but he didn't look visibly hurt or incoherent, just got sucked into a rough and tough fight with a strong bodypuncher and pressure fighter. if pacquiao wins it'll probably look something like that, but i think floyd's style has gone too far away from the kind of guy who would be willing to sit in the pocket and trade. he'd much rather circle and pick his spots at this point in his career. enjoy the turkey holiday.
Thursday Nov 26, 2009 01:19:56 PM
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MisterLee:
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Wow... paulie malicrappy (im' not his fan any more) and Kermit Cintron are just jealous! Paulie = having been considered a pacquiao opponent post-hatton fight, and got his arse handed to him by Cotto. Cintron was given a fight with Cotto post margarito as a tune up, but it fell thru. now look who made 10's of millions of dollars? Cotto and pacquiao! Those guys are just jealous at their mediocre staged fight events... fighting really tough no-name opponents for way less money. Man if they talked like they could fight they might actually be part of a PPV event! Pc!
Thursday Nov 26, 2009 03:46:55 PM
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MisteRLee:
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Malicrappy got his arse handed to him by RICKY HATTON (outjabbed!!!) AND by Cotto, and pacquiao knocked BOTH of them out, so i can see the jealousy. He better focus on diaz. I don't care who wins the fight any more. Malicrappy lost me as a fan b/c of his personality or lack of. He sounds like an angry blogger, not a prize fighter (he went on record on Fighthype to say pacquiao is on steroids). Malicrappy's only two good fights would be agst ndou and diaz. Wow, good job! You stink malicrappy, no class, no humility, no respect. Cintron, come on headbutt master, if you're so good, fight the winner of LTP martinez if you have the cojones, or rematch Margacheato! Pc!
Thursday Nov 26, 2009 03:49:39 PM
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Frank Z@ Misterlee:
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Malignaggi's coming out bad in this one. i normally enjoy hearing the stuff he has to say but he's just sounding like someone who's sore that the two guys who gave him his worst beatings were dominated by pacquiao. apparently somehow you're not allowed to be able to play off the fact that you're hurt during a fight, or to be able to increase you're punching power. simple reason why pac's punching harder and faster now, he's not weight drained like he was at 126-130.
Thursday Nov 26, 2009 04:40:14 PM
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Luc:
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I would like to recommend this article to be the STANDARD OF WRITING. Great,great, great article. If I have 10 thumbs I will raise it just for you!
Thursday Nov 26, 2009 05:03:04 PM
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MisterLee puts on his reading glasses...:
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"Prior to the Leonard-Hearns showdown back in September of 1981, Shields was the highest profile fighter who had fought both Leonard and Hearns. In October of 1978 Shields lost a 10 round unanimous decision to Leonard. Eighteen months later Shields challenged Hearns for the WBA welterweight title and lost when he wasn't allowed to come out for 13th round. In the run up to Leonard-Hearns, Shields was inundated with requests for him to compare and contrast the two fighters and ultimately pick the winner.
Most times fighters aren't completely honest when asked for their opinion of a particular fighter who they've fought because they often times have a subconscious agenda that influences what they think and say. However, Randy Shields came across without an agenda when he voiced his thoughts on Ray and Tommy, not to mention he was spot on with his prediction. He basically said Hearns was clearly the bigger puncher, but Leonard because of his speed and versatility was more dangerous and would figure a way to neutralize Hearns' reach and power and win the fight. Shields called the fight right but he's more the exception than the rule." ~ Frank Lotierzo, Common Opponent Myth, October, 13, 2009. Holler!
Thursday Nov 26, 2009 05:18:24 PM
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Fe'Roz :
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Watching Manny's fan base grow is like sitting in the audience of The Price is Right. You doubted him against Oscar, "Come on down!" You thought Hatton was too big, "Come on down!". You thought Cotto too strong, "Come on down!". Join the rest of us. Winky Wright, you predicted Manny losing three times, "Come on down!". Winky is the newest member of the MP fan club. He just said what so many have said recently. Manny has made him a believer. He may not win ever fight....but fewer and fewer are betting against him.
Thursday Nov 26, 2009 08:23:57 PM
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colt45:
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This article is noteworthy.
A piece of literature in boxing, touching greatness of a humble man - a boxer - a fighter - a human being - a symbol of hope...
Friday Nov 27, 2009 04:21:49 AM
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Arban:
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I've posted this before. I'll say it again. For those who were saying that manny just has natural talent the way he's been beating his opponents, are you kidding me? After his last fight with Jmm, Stryker tampered with his body. Paulie was right that there is something in manny that makes him as he is now. Actually, it was David Diaz who noticed it first. If you all watched his interview after his fight with Pac, he said that it was like manny had blades in his hands and it's as if he was slicing him more than he was punching him. And the way he knocked out hatton & was absorbing cotto's punches, who can ever doubt the adamantium that's inside his body. So pbf, better watch out! You'll be needing magneto on your side. Nevertheless, it won't really matter 'cause there's prof x to guide the man.
Friday Nov 27, 2009 06:23:17 AM
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PACLANDER:
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I think you deserves a call from PACMAN himself. THANKS ALOT... from Pilipinos.
Saturday Jan 2, 2009 03:31:10 AM
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Roy:
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Stunning! Made me goosebumps......and tears of Pride..
PacMan for lyf...
Saturday Jan 2, 2009 03:54:49 AM
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Angie And Goody...23 Years Later
Twenty three years later after they seconded Marvin Hagler and Ray Leonard in Las Vegas, Goody Petronelli and Angelo Dundee crossed paths again. This time, it was at Foxwoods. Photo/friend of TSS "The Iceman" John Scully reports there were only pleasantries exchanged. Goody didn't debate the split decision victory enjoyed by Leonard, which to this day Hagler disputes.
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