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| Note the contemptuous sneer postfight. Now we see a bit better why the Brits haven't taken to Cocky Frochy as much he'd like. How'd you score the fight, readers? |
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Carl Froch Barely Edges Out Impressive Andre Dirrell Via Split Decision
By Michael Woods
No matter what the judges were to say after the main event at the Trent FM Arena in Nottingham, England on Saturday night between Carl Froch and Andre Dirrell, the underdog American from Michigan would have emerged as a winner. Dirrell fought as he promised he would, hard and strong, and he surpassed the expectations of most experts, who suspected that his thin resume would do him no favors against the rugged super middleweight champion Froch. His hand speed, his movement, his unorthodoxy gave Froch fits, and the fans in attendance were chewing their nails as the judges' cards were tallied.
The scores tumbled forth from Jimmy Lennon Jr: a split decision: Alejandro Rochin saw it 114-113 Dirrell, Massimo Barrovecchio scored it 115-112 Froch and the tiebreaker from Daniel Van de Wiele was 115-112, for Froch. And while Dirrell bowed his head, looking a bit deflated, TSS had to hope he exulted afterwards, because his effort was exemplary, and our card echoed Rochin's 114-113 Dirrell judgment.
"I know I boxed him enough to gain a decision, but it didn't go my way," Dirrell told Jim Gray afterwards. He said he still wasn't sure why the ref Hector Afu, who didn't do a good job at all, to put it mildly, took a point from him in the tenth round. Froch said I can't believe it was a split decision, and called out Dirrell for not standing and trading. He said Dirrell complained excessively to the ref, and generally, came off a sore winner. Froch fans will likely see it differently, but the loser probably emerges with more upside after this scrap. "I'm looking forward to fighting Kessler, there you've got a proud warrior, who will stand and have a fight," Froch said, in a slap at Dirrell.
The 32-year-old Froch, the WBC super middleweight champion, weighed 167 1/4 while the 26-year-old Dirrell was 167 1/2, after coming in heavy at the weigh in.
In the first round, Dirrell kept his left low, and snapped crisp jabs intermittently. Froch also kept his left low, and jabbed the the torso, head, and then torso again. Dirrell jabbered at Froch, playing the impudent interloper unafraid of entering a lion's den. The Brit Froch drew a roar from his people with a combo when Dirrell went lefty, but it was a close round. In the second, Froch both lead and countered, and again wasn't put off by Dirrell going lefty. Froch came in 3-0 against lefties, for the record. Dirrell's handspeed edge was obvious from Scotland, and it also was apparent that he wasn't overwhelmed by the big stage in enemy territory. In the third, Froch looked to press more, close the distance. But Dirrell whacked him with a few counters, and made Froch look quite immobile in comparison. Dirrell drew hoots from the crowd for getting out of dodge in a somewhat hasty manner, and in one exit burst Froch caught him clean. In the fourth, we saw some blood on Dirrell's lip and his nose. Dirrell's swift lateral movement signaled he wasn't keen on trading, and told Froch to step it up. In the fifth, Dirrell got thrown down by Froch, and the ref warned the hometowner. This round, Dirrell didn't move as much. He was mixing up his tactics, and keeping Froch guessing. His straight left to the body was also an effective weapon. In the sixth, Dirrell made Froch miss badly, and the champ was frustrated. Dirrell caught Froch with a left hand, and his confidence at this juncture was sky high. There were instances of clinching, grabbing, wrestling in just about every round, and the ref had to be ready to intercede at all times.
In the seventh, the mover Dirrell looked energized. Froch would box him into a corner, but Dirrell would slither away, untouched. Froch lured Dirrell into a scrum, a rumble, with a minute to go. Froch held and hit and Dirrell complained as he was being smacked, not a good move. He needed to stay focused, and not let it deteriorate into a bar brawl. Dirrell took back the momentum some with a left hook, clean, at the end of the round. In the eighth, Froch didn't manage to lure Dirrell into an ugly stanza early. Then he held Dirrell down, and rammed the back of his head with a right. It was so obvious, he definitively should have had a point deducted, no doubt about it. But he was at home and enjoyed that edge in that instance. Dirrell rubbed Froch with a forearm in response. Then Froch landed a left hook, but Dirrell didn't seem perturbed by it. In the ninth, Dirrell switched stance a few times, and threw in mid-switch. He looks wild doing it, but he pulls it off. Dirrell did look a bit more tired. Froch was warned for holding and hitting, and for sure, Team Dirrell will bring Froch's tactics up after the bout. Froch took a momentum advantage in this round.
In the 10th, Dirrell looked more juiced than the round before. The ref then took a point from Dirrell, for holding, and there was no cause for it. There will be screams, and rightly so, about partisanship. Dirrell then blasted Froch with a sharp left, and two rights, trying mightily to regain that point. He hurt Froch, with a left cross at the end of the round. That should've evened up the round. In the 11th, the first time Dirrell went into the 11th, the American slipped Froch combos, and came out with a left hook answer. Froch ate left hands, three in a row, at the midway point. He fired a heavy hook in retort. Dirrell was landing clean, effective blows, and judges without a preference for Froch would have to see that. Froch threw right after the bell, but no point or warning was forthcoming. Dirrell's corner then told him to take out Froch, smartly saying he wouldn't get a decision. TSS fully agreed with that advice. In the 12th, Dirrell didn't press too heavily. Both men still had ample energy, surprisingly. My DVR then cut off, but I taped Dexter, so I saw the ending. We'd go to the cards.
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Brainbashedbritboy:
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Froch was victorious but not in the fashion i expected, i saw him winning by a clear 2 rounds,plus there was a point deduction to add, 114-113 was generous to Dirrell, spoiling and complaining but it was an ugly fight and i cant argue with the cards..froch fought out of Dirrells clinches which to the americans dismay wasnt supposed to happen,seemed he was hoping for the ref to step in to seperate,some rough house tactics from Froch didnt impress though...fighter of the night wasnt in the house....he was stateside under the name of King Arthur, what can be said other than wow. On the plus it was good seeing and talking to some faces at ringside, Jean Pascal...took time to talk and have his photo with myself and many others, Tarva seemed happy with his pizza delivery..lol to ringside...the young gun Tyson Fury was accomodating every fan and never grouched once Thaxton looked recovered from his Murray beatin,,,and Murray was n fine party spirits....all in all a good night, shame the fight didnt match the atmosphere.
Saturday Oct 17, 2009 10:20:18 PM
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Fe'Roz :
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A disgrace. How can you win a fight if you don't hit your opponent. Forget clean effective punches. Froch barely hit Andre at all. It was a bum decision ....granted to a native son. Since when is a 'bum's rush' boxing. That was Froch's only tactic and not a very successful one at that. He was out punched and out landed all night by Andre's clean effective shots. Both fighter were plenty dirty; both easily could have been penalized. But that was beside the point. Froch simply did not hit Andre Dirrell with clean punches. I, for one, cannot wait to see him hand over his championship belt soon enough.
Saturday Oct 17, 2009 10:22:39 PM
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Frank Z:
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sure dirrell did himself no favors by clinching and complaining, and falling down about 5 times, but froch picked him up and threw him like it was WWE, and threw a LOT of rabbit punches. @brainbashedbritboy, which rounds did you see froch clearly winning? i only saw about 2. even in the close rounds dirrell outlanded him. the only thing i can commend froch for was constantly coming forward, but as soon as dirrell figured out that he could rock froch back with his punches he unloaded with hooks and overhand rights that would have took down anyone whos chin isn't froch's. @ Fe'Roz, i agree, dirrell's gonna come back hungrier and better. this caliber of fight was probably too early for him to take on, but he adapted well and he's on his up and up, probably the best "loss" he could have asked for.
Saturday Oct 17, 2009 10:31:32 PM
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DaveB:
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I thought the point deduction was awful officiating. Why not let them just fight at that point when they both were using roughhouse tactics? Thankfully it wouldn't have affected the outcome but it wasn't good for the ref to help decide the outcome at that juncture. That was a fight that could have gone either way depending on what you like in scoring. It was real close in my opinion so I can live with the decision. Dirrell needs to fight more if he wants to impress the judges.
Saturday Oct 17, 2009 10:33:34 PM
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Fe'Roz :
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And Froch needs to land more if he wants to impress anyone not living in Nottingham
Saturday Oct 17, 2009 10:41:37 PM
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The Watcher:
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Fraud was getting beat by Jermain in that fight until he stopped him so this didn't surprise me. I thought Dirrell won this fight but at the same time with all his running I wouldn't like to see him fight again. Unfortunately we will again but I hope Abraham puts him to sleep.
Saturday Oct 17, 2009 10:45:58 PM
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Joeben:
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Clear win for Dirrell. This was a terrible decsion. Shouldnt Froch have to land some clean punches in order to win. Not to mention how did Dirrell get a point taken away for holding and Froch didnt get a pont taken away for hitting to the back of the head?
Saturday Oct 17, 2009 11:12:08 PM
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TotoyBato:
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Froch was not impressive. Points were taken from Dirrel for running away and complaining like a little b--ch.
Saturday Oct 17, 2009 11:44:44 PM
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RG - PacManite na mababang-loob:
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Andre Dirrell won! In the British Kingdom, it must be like "Alice in Wonderland." Things are upside down. Froch is blinded by this homecooking. He is in deep kimche down the road of this classic. Holla!
Saturday Oct 17, 2009 11:51:17 PM
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Fe'Roz :
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Robbery may be too strong...... but the Sheriff of Nottingham let Froch and his still Merry Men rob/in their 'hood......and steal this one right in front of our eyes.
Sunday Oct 18, 2009 12:19:13 AM
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ali:
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Bull$hit Dirrell won im glad Fe Roz kept it real thats why your in my p4p list on TSS.
Sunday Oct 18, 2009 12:55:33 AM
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Jonald:
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I'm with Fe'Roz. I just didn't see enough clean shots from Froch.
Sunday Oct 18, 2009 01:45:29 AM
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watcher2:
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If Dirrell would've fought the whole fight like he fought the last few rounds he'd have won easily. It's his fault he decided to run away and hold at every opportunity. Dirrell clearly has more upside but he has to be willing to trade ... knowing that he'll get off first and more often. I think Dirrell should've gotten penalized sooner than the 10th. I have no problem with selective holding, but holding every time someone gets anywhere near you is ridiculous.
Sunday Oct 18, 2009 02:02:52 AM
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honky tonk man:
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Direll did not show himself to be much of a fighter. Talented? Sure? But when your entire night consists of grabbing your opponent in any unmanly way imaginable to save yourself you lose fights. The ref should have taken the points a few rounds earlier.
Sunday Oct 18, 2009 02:41:28 AM
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dft:
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Dirrell didn't deserve to win and, really, neither did Froch. Spending every round trying to steal it rather than actually fight and take, holding every opportunity to stop your opponent working and throwing pitty pat punches when you do throw isn't how to make a good impression.
The point penalty was absolutely right - he wasn't clinching because he'd been hurt or they just got too close - he was holding to stop Froch from fighting him - that's against the rules. He could have been docked another point later on for it.
Was Froch dirty? Yes. But mostly it was in response to Andre being negative.
Sunday Oct 18, 2009 03:31:05 AM
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steadadelica:
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I think all this whining sounds like a lot of Americans who have forgot the advantage home fighters are granted in the US. its always said you have to take a champions belt, not get on your knees and ask for it. Dirrell brought the the tactics which dominated the fight, there's no use crying when they don't work out. but all in all it was a really bad fight, Froch needed to do more to utterly convince, wont be watching the replay
Sunday Oct 18, 2009 03:52:37 AM
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fizz7777:
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I've always been Froch critic, I feel he fights in a semi-amatourish lazy style, hands too low and often off-balance when throwing his big shots. There's no questioning his power, heart or commitment though, and it's mainly these 3 things that were lacking in Dirrel today. If the youngster learns anything from this fight is that you can't expect just your skill, speed or boxing ability alone to win you bouts- sometimes you actually have to FIGHT - get down & dirty - and this is where Dirrel came undone. He wasn't willing to engage the Brit, and expected the referee to intervene everytime he and Froch got into close quarters. I've watchedthe fight twice now, and whilst the first time around I thought it was close with Dirrel having the slight edge, on secong viewing I concluded that the two judges who gave it to Froch had got it right. Dirrel is a talented fighter no doubt, but on this showing he's gonna struggle with any real 'live' fighters who aren't willing to adapt to his style and are able to fight through his clinching and spoiling tactics. You can put this down to inexperience, but if Dirrel learns from this, he can still be a force in this tournament.
Sunday Oct 18, 2009 04:08:55 AM
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bwe:
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Dirrell showed me a lot in the last half of the 10th round through the 12th. He threw his punches with authority, slipped just about everything incoming, and showed the poise of a champion. Dirrell proved to me he's a future champ.
Froch on the other hand is a Gene Fullmer type brawler who is tough as nails if somebody is standing in front of him. Froch is a tough night for anyone but a solvable puzzle. Without the home cooking and inept referring he's a loser last night.
Sunday Oct 18, 2009 06:11:46 AM
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kountedout:
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froch is not a great fighter or was i impressed with him, he has determination and the will to win. wasn't impressed with dirrell either. dirrell backed up to much and held too much. it was a close fight. hometown decisions are not just out of the country. look at diaz vs maglinaggi. these were close fights. dirrell switches back and forth so much i think he confuses himself. he either ends up in corners or on the ropes.
Sunday Oct 18, 2009 07:20:38 AM
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deepwater:
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Froch won.dirrell held way to much.Instead of sticking out his tounge so much he coulda traded a few times
Sunday Oct 18, 2009 09:22:49 AM
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Wayne:
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I had Froch by one point. It was close. No way was Dirrell getting
the decision in a close fight in England. No surprise. Got to take it
from the champ. Dirrell held way to much.
Sunday Oct 18, 2009 09:42:58 AM
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LeRoy A. Peters:
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Fe'Roz and Ali are just upset, because the white boys are winning this tournament. Next thing you know they'll say that Jermaine Taylor got robbed. LOL!!!
Sunday Oct 18, 2009 09:51:43 AM
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tengohemroids:
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I would like to see the punch stats. I think we would see something similar to Holyfield/Valuev, and Mayweather/Marquez for Dirrell. Totally outclassed this piece of eurotrash. Seriously? Dirrell loses a point for holding, but Froch can bodyslam him out of frustration, and throw about 22 rabbit punches w/o a warning? Dirrell does need to learn to keep his composure, but this has just been another nail in boxing's soon-to-be-sealed coffin.
I cannot believe Froch was calling out Calzaghe awhile back. I almost hope Taylor chooses to retire, and Calzaghe comes out of retirement to take his place. Froch would probably claim some pussyfoot injury, and continue talking his shit. He escaped with his precious little title last night, but somewhere down the line, he's going to get knocked the hell out.
I'd love to put out a bounty on Froch's head. $1,000,000 to anyone who knocks this bum out.
Sunday Oct 18, 2009 09:54:40 AM
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thegreatestofalltime:
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If I was Andre Dirrell's promoter, I would pull him out of this tournament. It was highway robbery in Nottingham last night. I can't blame Roy Jones Jr. for not going over to Germany to fight Darius Mich. when he had the WBO belt. An American has to knockout a guy overseas to get a decision, regardless of getting outboxed the whole fight. I had Andre Dirrell up at least 9 rounds. He out roughed him and out boxed him and beat him at his own game at the end. All Froch was doing was rabbit punching because he was frustrating. Showtime is a disgrace for not taking up for Andre Dirrell and not admitting that he got robbed. HBO would have called it a disgrace. I can't wait to see what Teddy Atlas has to say about this decision. I hope Allan Green will take Jermaine Taylor's place as an alternate so he can knock Carl Froch out.
Sunday Oct 18, 2009 10:42:38 AM
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Glenwood Leroy Peterson:
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Pls! Nobody even respond to LeRoy. We know that he in his own words is a "black man" with an identity crisis here to cause trouble.
Sunday Oct 18, 2009 11:08:29 AM
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Fe'Roz @ LeRoy A. Peters:
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The regulars here know me well enough to know that I use my words carefully. So I chose one selectively for you personally. Please accept it as a gift from all of us. the word: IDIOT.
That is an appropriate word for a fool like you. BTW, I am as white as Carl Froch.
Sunday Oct 18, 2009 11:08:46 AM
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AFN:
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We had it a split decision, 2 of us for Dirrell, and our blind mate in the corner for Froch. Even his labrador saw it our way. Dirrell delivered a boxing clinic despite being fouled repeatedly. The point deduction was laughable, tho I personally thought the ref handled an awful fight well up to that point considering he was out of his depth. If Dirrell had more pop, or Froch didn't have such a good chin, Andre would have had him out of there last night. Score one up for Tarver who called Froch Crotch. Spot on Antonio, Carl is a d!ck. But then so is Tarver. Somebody should tell him, in his mum's earings and lipstick, he looks like a Diana Ross female impersonator who has lost his wig. Plonker. EL TOONOY
Sunday Oct 18, 2009 11:56:57 AM
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sweetscientist:
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I usually never respond in here..but I just had too after what happened last night. first, I can't remember being so excited about upcoming fights as I have been for this "Super Six" tournament. First fight...went exactly as I expected, Jermaine will hold his own for a few then get knocked out (wouldn't Allan Green or even Andrade or Bute be a better choice for the tournament?) But how in the world did Dirrell lose a decison (hell, how was he the one who lost a point by the ref?) Why would judges spoil the opening of something great for boxing with a sham decision? Maybe 3 rounds could go to Froch (maybe?) He was the one nearly knocked down or worse twice and this was late in a fight that he was LOSING!!! All the bias aside if this were in America and Froch was the shaft, I would be equally outraged. Boxing can't keep taking bad decision after another!
Sunday Oct 18, 2009 12:39:20 PM
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kountedout:
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dont blame the country for dirrell not winning. he didnt come to fight. you dont have to go toe 2 toe to make it a fight. he did entirely too much holding. can we say that sturm beat oscar in the u.s. and didnt get the decision. sturms loss was way more of a robbery then dirrell claiming robbery. we as americans stop crying robbery when we lose all the time. get back into the gym and fix the problem
Sunday Oct 18, 2009 12:50:12 PM
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Fe'Roz:
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EM. You must be have a had a goods night's sleep. Waking up in such a generous mood. I'll have to watch again today. Maybe I missed one or two meaningful Froch connects. pc
Sunday Oct 18, 2009 01:07:50 PM
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MisterLee:
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Wow! Fe'roz boma ye!!! I prefer Easter over Leroy, anybody? haha...
Sunday Oct 18, 2009 01:09:46 PM
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Frank Z:
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everyone who's arguing for froch winning is saying that he won because dirrell showed his immaturity. that's not enough to win a fight, you don't win becasue the other guy loves to talk to the ref, not if you whiff on almost all your punches. i can get the argument that you need to take the belt from the champ especially in the house of the champ, but this is also a tournament fight, it's not just another alphabet belt fight. we're on to something new and improved here with the tournament, this should have been seen as so much more than a soup title fight, cause it was. bottom line is dirrell landed many more clean shots, dirrell had froch shook late, and dirrell made froch miss and made froch frustrated. either way i look forward to the rematch. i think everyone will agree that dirrell could have done much better, and should have fought more like he did the last 5 rounds or so, but can anyone say that froch could have done better? this was supposed to be a 100% froch sitting in front of a crowd that loves him fighting a few blocks from his house, compared to a nervous and injured froch against taylor. this was a nervous and jet lagged dirrell who hadn't fought anyone near the level of froch, or anyone at the level of some of froch's KO victims. like i said before this "loss" is probably the best thing dirrell could have asked for, short of coming back late even harder and stopping froch. it's good to see a scenario where losses finally don't mean a make or break, not to mention we know right away who they're fighting next.
Sunday Oct 18, 2009 01:16:24 PM
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RG -- what is diz? Comic! @Fe'Roz & AFN:
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You guys got your comedy characters on today -- in the west. Gosh! I better take hit the pit. It is three in the morning, and I have to get up at six. Any way, I guess that is what I get for being struck on this Universe. That reply to LeRoy A peterhead was outrageous. And the one to EM, ..."one or two meaningfoul connects...." Hahahaha! You're WILDING, Fe'Roz! And AFN, the blind mate voted for Froch. Wow! That was too much, and adding that his labrador saw it you blokes way, was a side buster. I think that I broke a couple ribs laughing like no tomorrow. That comment knocked went straight to my liver and gut and dropped me like a sack of potatos. I was my laughing arse off. My PacPosse thought that I had finally flipped from spending so much time on my blackberry hanging out in TSS Universe. Hey! You guys try to be nice with the comedy. Nobody should laugh so hard that his ribs feel as if they are break dancing on his internal organs. Holla!
Sunday Oct 18, 2009 01:53:28 PM
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@everyone that thinks that Froch won:
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You all would not be saying that Froch won if there was a compubox stats for punches landed and thrown and even broken down each round. Froch lost the fight, not matter how you look at it. He got outfoxed, outboxed, outsmart. He landed the quicker and cleaner punches and he shook Carl Crotch Fraud in the 10th or 11th round. His grandfather told him that he needed a knockout because Europe, especially Germany and England, is well known for robbing American boxers. In the first 4 rounds, Froch couldn't even touch him. In the 10th, 11th, and 12th round, Direll was teeing up on Froch. That's seven rounds easy. They didn't even show how each judge score their rounds to validate their decision to score rounds for Froch that they know Dirrell won. I think showtime loses if they are going to continue to televise decisions as the one last night. If I was Dirrell's camp, they should protest the decision to the WBC and get them to rewatch the tape, score the punches land and thrown, and do the right thing and call it a draw or reward Dirrell the belt and the win.
Sunday Oct 18, 2009 02:05:50 PM
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brownsugar:
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Sloppy ugly fight,... I've said it a half dozen times already,.. so I'll say it again,.. Dirrell needs to learn how to conduct himself going into the champs backyard,... when the ref is not your friend,.. don't waste time talking and keep punching,... and show enough aggressive behavior to display your desire,...Showtime never has punch stats,.. so your not going to get an amateur style win even if you connect with more punches like Dirrell did,... did Dirrell win?,... not according to the judges,.. but at least he did according to 80% of the jounalists watching,.. I would have given him a split D,.. at best Froch should have gotten a Draw for being agressive even after he was rocked twice... but landing more punches should outweight ineffective aggression,.. I can't be too cynical because Dirrell didn't help himself with his behavior,... tighten it up kid and show us what you learned in the next round,.. JT,... catch the next cab to the united states and retire with your beautiful wife and 3 lovely daughters,... open yourself a business and live out your life in relative ease,... you deserve it....
Sunday Oct 18, 2009 03:13:20 PM
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ali @ Brownsugar:
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I glad you brought up Dirrell and his complaining to the ref. I know Froch was being dirty so you got to be a little dirty to to let him know you won't stand for that B.S. It was pain to see the ref wasn't going to do nothing about it so keep fighting and handle your own business. Having said all that Dirrell show a champion heart look like he was in great shape and fought one hellva fight. For him to be in his first real test and having to go to another country he gets much respect from me.
Sunday Oct 18, 2009 03:54:46 PM
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Smoke:
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I too had Dirrell winning this mega-ugly fight. I am most impressed by Andre's quickness and ability to get away. He made Froch look like a frustrated fool. I am not impressed by Andre's lack of maturity. He obviously p.o.'d the judges who did not appreciate his falling down, freq complaints, and holding. Froch was certainly no shining example of discipline, humility, or maturity. He is just a nasty w@nker who fights dirty and has a pretty good chin. Great comments all (except LeRoy the HaterBater)
Sunday Oct 18, 2009 06:30:27 PM
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Fe'Roz:
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Watching the fight last night gave me lots of time...too much arguably....to think about the stylistic differences between the American fighters and their European counterparts....as well as the state of boxing and it's audience in the US. Boxing is not dying. It is asleep however here at home. Nobody is writing obituaries yet in England, in Germany, in the Philippines, Mexico and Puerto Rico. At least not yet. But for this moment, boxers like Dirrell, JT...and even Floyd at the elite end...are not engaging broader audiences in part because they do no possess explosive KO power...but also, I suspect because of their stylistic differences to the current crop of international fighters. Watching JT without the sound (Showtime's commentary was all too transparent in their preference for AA), I saw him boxing...or should I say out-boxing...AA for long stretches but not Fighting. AA did little but everyone knew he was there to fight. Patient to a fault...but menacing always. Same with Dirrell only in his case he was de-Froching the champ with superior boxing right in front of his girlfriend. But Andre also was boxing too much for most tastes and not fighting. I know, this is a game of hit without getting hit. True. But that is only part of the fight game. This criticism is the criticism that is heard most often about Floyd. And it is true. He seems, above all others, to box superior...but fight rarely. Take away KO power and you have a range of responses on the lower end from boredom to indifference.....none of which is going to ignite a new generation of fans here at home. Think Cotto, Manny, Froch and Abraham and at least you know these guys come to inflict hurt. They aren't boxing like they are keeping score. They are intent to see their opponent on the floor. Do or Die. You know where to find them when you pay to see them fight. Now trust me, I don't think much in general of the straight up European style but I do admire their commitment to hurt the other man. In fact, I pay to see it myself. Now all that said, JT needs a new life, Dirrell won last night and Floyd....well, we shall see. As for AA and Froch, they are on their own collision courses to see both when....moreso than if... they themselves will meet the canvas before the other guy. Me, I'll be waiting.....but watching.
Sunday Oct 18, 2009 07:41:31 PM
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Frank Z @ Fe'Roz:
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you're right, most of the american stars don't seem to want to engage. i'm never one for just that raw macho crap about taking two to give one, but by not being willing to engage you miss out on learning valuable skills of defending in the pocket and rolling and slipping shots up close, being able to fight at phone booth range a la henry armstrong etc. sometimes i wonder if what floyd and what dirrell did last night is really called outboxing, like another article on here said, it may really just be outfoxing. outboxing implies they outskilled them. it's not really a skill if you're just quicker an dmore athletic and play a speedy game of tag. outboxing to me implies you use angles, feints, and accuracy to hit them while making them miss you while sliding back in range to counter, not hit and run... it's pretty amateurish and you'll see a lot of similarities if you watch olympic boxing. the amateur system here in the america is pretty broken, my coach tells me that they're all taught to just stick and move, being babied for the pro ranks, and it's why we can't beat the cubans and former soviets in international amateur boxing. i hope that a star comes up soon from the states that brings the aggressive KO style along with the defensive slickness of a floyd or sweet pea.
Sunday Oct 18, 2009 07:55:41 PM
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brownsugar:
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Great comments Frank and Fe'Roz,.. going forward,.. I think Dirrell could use some of Ann Wolfe's patented WWF style training where she has several guys grab her fighter while he struggles to get out,.. or at least a little Judo training,.. other than that,... he's a pure boxer,... watching Arthur A... it's very obvious the guy is tremendously strong,.. and can punch like a mule,.. also I wouldn't exactly call him a slow poke,.. but the guy is basic as meat and potatoes,.. his repetoire is mediocre and he frequently throws himself off balance because he loads up so much,..nobody even attempts to fight him close or on the inside,.. so he's got punching room to throw bombs anytime he wants,.. JT hardly even thru the right or tried to wrapped his punches around AA's guard,.. the few times he did hook,.. it clearly bothered AA a little,.. hope the rest of the field doesnt' continue to give him too much respect,.. I actually think Pavlik is a more skilled boxer and they call him one dimentional,.. I hate referring to the past ,.. but in this case,.. I'd pick an old school boxer against AA anytime,.. and I think somebodies going to figure that out in this tournament and expose him as being extremely tough,.. but basic.....
Sunday Oct 18, 2009 09:53:13 PM
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Nate:
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I watched the fights and kept as objective a view as possible, but rewatched this evening taped. It helps to take notes and score, using stats to reinforce or not what your impressions are the first time. Pretty much how I saw it the first time:
Froch gets credit from judges merely for "pushing the fight"- that's fine.. but I never have seen a less technical crappy connect ratio from a guy, combined with a total 22 illegal behind the head rabbit punches, 2 headlocks, and a illegal bodyslam gain the "ring cred" as if he is tougher. No rules are rules and I counted outside of the tiny few little jabs each guy occasionally traded 68 times where Froch did his obviously WILD swinging for the fences style- where any quick boxer who turns on him can counter at will- something Calzaghe would have done 80% of the time, but Dirrell picked his spots. Those 68 times consist of wannabee cockback haymakers, or his traditional funny as hell jump at you with my left hand hooks and jabs, and his flurries of downward misses off the ropes or near corners. There were 3 multiple flurries where he connected 0 times or had 1 small graze- the highest multiple was when he tried 11 times to hit Dirrell but looked like the fool he is missing.
Now I've never known among fights the the "WINNER" was the guy who looked tougher and threw more aggressive punches that never connected. I always thought the quicker guy who came out unscathed and connected a couple dozen shots would be the winner in this case. But no, the Italian and other European judge liked the way Froch cheated off the break and expressed his desire as a "WARRIOR" to lose- I mean "fight another 12 rounds". Well Carl, Warriors win, they don't just win on paper- they show and prove. And for the 2nd fight in a row you got really lucky do to circumstances. The first was due to a opponents lack of conditioning. And your 2nd performance was even worse AT HOME!!! If I was a local I would not be impressed. I would rather see Tyson Fury (for laughs), Nathan Cleverly or Amir, for skill, or a Calzaghe comeback to toy with Carl for 5 rounds and knock him out in the 6th.
Dirrell wasn't perfect- he's still learning things like don't complain to the ref in the middle of the fight- you don't get a "TIMEOUT"- Carl will do anything short of going Tyson on you and biting for the win- and get a feel for how the ref is calling the fight and adapt to the ref's style as you do your opponent. That ref was very inconsistent on butting in at times, and letting Carl's constant cheating go- looking the other way.
I counted a minimum number of times that when Carl did his huge homerun swings when Dirrell effectively countered. At least 21 times where he countered small or large- and technically by the book he won 9 of 12 rounds. He lost one of those because of the assumption that judges set themselves on a Carl round win once the point was deducted even though Andre let some bombs loose afterward and won the round fair and square. 2 rounds I gave Andre were pretty "close", but you see if you land 1-3 decent jabs and a couple lil shots, and Froch lands ) but swings 4X as much that doesn't mean that Froch "won". He didn't connect. Hit/don't be hit is the key.
At first count I counted roughly 41 clinches. Not terribly high but yes, it's more than a little bit. But Froch did enter into a handfull of those, and acted illegally in over a dozen.
I wrote down comments from the commentators.
-Froch lands "1st big punch" in 5th.
-Froch lands in 8th. (little to mod power- to little effect)
-Froch lands 3rd punch-decent hook in 11th.
They said he traded a uppercut with Dirrell when Andre drove him to ropes in 12th but I checked a few times and didn't catch it.
And in his many flurries he tried a couple bodyshots but they were blocked and showed 0 damage. If Carl landed a half dozen or so jabs over the whole fight I would be surprised because Andre LANDED 2-3 X that much.
So HOW was it that Carl won? Oh yeah, he's in Nottingham. But it's o.k.- he won't have 21 title defenses like Calzaghe with huge win margins. All Carl can brag about is something like "I can SWING harder than you, because these other Super 6 fighters outside of Jermain can all connect with him and knock him out or hurt him. If swinging is the name of the game- you could just train to punch a 1,000 times per fight and win whether you connect or not. Froch doesn't even do that- he has terrible footwork, small punch volume, and connect ratio. But he's a damn good smack talker.
Monday Oct 19, 2009 02:27:34 AM
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Fe'Roz:
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BSugar and FrankZ both make excellent points. I just want to say....before our brother Ali thinks I'm a PBF hater...that I was clear that Floyd is in a class by himself. He and B-Hop can both stand in the pocket and exchange. The difference is that Floyd seems content to outshine his opponent while B-Hop is progressively setting his man up for real damage. Maybe...as I say with tongue in cheek... that's the upside of his Graterford prison years...where you don't get a 24 foot ring to elude your opponent. Also to be fair, it is not strictly these Americans that are guilty of this winning but unengaging style. Slappy Joe was someone I found totally uninspiring as well.
Nobody is looking to get unnecessarily hit. But most of us watch and admire true grit.
Monday Oct 19, 2009 04:37:47 AM
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LeRoy A. Peters:
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Hey Fe'Roz,
Let's leave your mother out of this ok. She was an idiot giving birth to you!!!
Monday Oct 19, 2009 06:56:06 AM
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kountedout:
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could it be that american fighters dont want to engage because they are not taught very well in the gym? how many gold medals have won since the 84 olympics? lot of these fighters instead of being trained good has done to much tv watching. its a cookie cutter effect. whats successful for 1 fighter dont mean that it will be successful for the guy that trying to imitate the moves because they dont understand when to do the move and whats it for. prime example you see some fighters trying to roll the shoulders if you havent been taught then you dont know what is going on with that defense
Monday Oct 19, 2009 07:37:07 AM
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Frank Z@ kountedout:
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Well since 1984 we've only had one or two guys on each team that stands out in the pros... 1988 we had roy jones, 1992 Oscar, 1996 Floyd, 2000 Jermain Taylor, Ricardo Williams Jr. (sorta), 2004 we have Ward and Dirrell, it'll be interesting to see who comes out strong from 2008, I think only Demetrius Andrade will make waves as a pro, maybe Deontay Wilder just cause the big boys division is so weak. Only de la hoya and ward have won gold since 1984, and remember '84 did not have the cubans or the soviet nations, so who knows how many of those golds woulda been silvers and bronzes. You're right fighters try to imitate guys on tv too much. only one of us is as naturally fast and powerful as roy jones... and that's roy jones. This has to do proably with lack of good trainers to turn the dudes away from just imitating. watching fights is good but the base of it should be your training based on your abilities and solid fundamentals.
Monday Oct 19, 2009 08:35:13 AM
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EM @Leroy:
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Leroy, Fe Roz is a longtime contributor here, much valued. Wanna stick around? Keep it impersonal, OK?
Monday Oct 19, 2009 08:43:34 AM
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rudy:
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Dirrel won, moving away/clinching/lobbying the ref does not take away from the punches landed.
Monday Oct 19, 2009 10:17:15 AM
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joe in H-town:
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I thought Dirrell won the match given the fact that Froch was the Champion he never took Dirrell to the matt except when he was frustrated because of Dirrells speed. Froch bear-hugged him down to the ring floor.He never could make Dirrell fight his kind of Pub fight. Froch missed all night. I think Froch's mum and girlfriend came closer to hitting Dirrell then he did. Everytime American's fight in another country they always find a way to not give us the decision. The Referee was clearly a hometown boy also. The same thing happen in the Andrade vs Bute fight in Canada the referee stepped in and stopped his 8 count when Bute was clearly hearing bells and birdies in the last seconds of the 12th round when Andrade knocked him out. Just like Dirrel's Grandfather said during the last round " you have to knock him out you are not getting a decision here son" And yes Americans fight straight up but my black brother was also gifted with this thing called "SPEED" and "QUICKNESS".If you are a so called Champion you have to deal with it Crotch I mean Froch.
Monday Oct 19, 2009 03:01:10 PM
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ali @ LeRoy A Peters:
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Your not that smart I don't want my fighter to lose to anyone you dummy
Monday Oct 19, 2009 04:25:22 PM
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LeRoy A. Peters:
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EM, How can you take that loser Fe'roz over me?!! That bully and his girlfriend ALI are the ones who make it personal, everytime a white fighter wins, when he isn't supposed to win! How can you tolerate their kind of garbage, but you come after me? I ain't a threat to noone except the racists on here!
Monday Oct 19, 2009 04:50:38 PM
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Isaiah@LeRoyA.Peters:
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Hey man, I agree white fighters should get credit for the fights they win. I to have gotten ticked about an unjust stereotype, but you can't just go around throwing insults out? Fe'Roz has been here a long time and you need to have concrete proof to back up your claims. If I argue with someone, I make sure there's something in the archives to prove my point over who started it. The "SENIOR" guys in here know what I'm referring to and know that peace has been made in my predicement between me and the other party, or at least I like to think so. You kind of remind of someone. If you are a black man like you claim, maybe we can change your name to UNCLE RUCKUS.
Monday Oct 19, 2009 06:15:38 PM
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TheBoyb901:
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People mention Dirrell clinching and holding, but don't mention the behind the hard hits from Froch. BOTTOMLINE: You can't win a fight if you don't land punches, PERIOD. People rather see a slugfest than an actual skill fighter. Froch looked silly all night long.
Monday Oct 19, 2009 08:12:32 PM
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MisteLee:
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Wow, some fans wilding! Fe'roz all the way. I put my TSS handle on the line for Fe'roz (and Radam and the Roast). #1 pacsage is like floyd, always slips out of trouble. Where are you SOHK and salt lover? Anyway, i'd gladly watch floyd over dirrell anyday. Dirrell has the ability to outbox or KO his opponents. The fact that he doesn't, and besides an explosive round 10 & 11, he stunk up most of the fight with 2, if not 3, counters a round. Froch did fight valiantly, even having gotten hurt he still threw punches and made a fight, unlike JT. He has the skills. Also, let's not generalize European fighters. Froch's coach Robert Cracken did go to the US to study American style boxing from what i read from this Febr or March's issue of BOxing monthly, a british boxing publication i picked up at Barnes and noble. Carl does have head movement and he did slip a lot of punches (more than you think a horse and cart kind of boxer would). either way, i have dirrell winning 6 rounds to 5 going into the last round, and i think the point deduction was BS, so was the rabbit punches with no deduction. Come on with the natioanlistic fervor, the US is just as likely to cheat as Europeans. There's a term called Hometown decision, and this is likely to happen in Nottingham, as Houston Texas, or Madison Square Garden. It's a part of boxing history, look at Cintron Martinez, martinez whooped his arse, knocked him down, and only got a draw! And anyway, i' gonna finish up this fight, i have dirrell winning the fight if he continues, but a few things hold tru: dirrell stinks up 80% of a fight, froch has a good heart, and the point deduction was BS. Pc out! Tss rules!
Monday Oct 19, 2009 09:05:01 PM
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LeRoy A. Peters:
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No thanks Isaiah,
I like my real name just fine and yes I am a black man. You need a picture, you check out my MYSPACE and Facebook page.
Tuesday Oct 20, 2009 01:01:59 PM
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Smiley C:
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Hum! An ill paradox fo' sure!
Wednesday Oct 21, 2009 12:07:40 AM
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Smiley C:
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Hum! An ill paradox fo' sure!
Wednesday Oct 21, 2009 12:08:41 AM
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jakey:
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i belive it was a very close ugly fight and could have gone either way in my eyes. dirrell impressed me with his speed and footwork but was intent on running and holding thats what lost him the fight for me i beleive it will be a brilliant fight froch-kessler
Wednesday Oct 21, 2009 02:16:25 AM
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rod ten:
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dirrell won! its only convenient the two european judges scored in favor of froch! dirrell you won dont let these european bums beat you. good fight to learn from, he turned it up in the end, hitting froch at will. the ref should be hung!
Wednesday Oct 21, 2009 12:00:34 PM
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Angie And Goody...23 Years Later
Twenty three years later after they seconded Marvin Hagler and Ray Leonard in Las Vegas, Goody Petronelli and Angelo Dundee crossed paths again. This time, it was at Foxwoods. Photo/friend of TSS "The Iceman" John Scully reports there were only pleasantries exchanged. Goody didn't debate the split decision victory enjoyed by Leonard, which to this day Hagler disputes.
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