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| Consider the possibility that agendas are in play when listening to a common opponent offer a pred for an upcoming fight, TSS U. |
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The Common Opponent Myth
By Frank Lotierzo
Whenever there's a big fight in professional boxing the most sought-after opinion by writers and commentators are from those fighters who have either fought or sparred the participants who are going to fight.
Which makes total sense because who could possibly provide more insight as to what it's like being in front of a pair of hands you can't see like the pair Sugar Ray Leonard possessed, or what it feels like to be at the end of a missile disguised as Thomas Hearns' right hand? The who in this case went by the name of Randy Shields.
Prior to the Leonard-Hearns showdown back in September of 1981, Shields was the highest profile fighter who had fought both Leonard and Hearns. In October of 1978 Shields lost a 10 round unanimous decision to Leonard. Eighteen months later Shields challenged Hearns for the WBA welterweight title and lost when he wasn't allowed to come out for 13th round. In the run up to Leonard-Hearns, Shields was inundated with requests for him to compare and contrast the two fighters and ultimately pick the winner.
Most times fighters aren't completely honest when asked for their opinion of a particular fighter who they've fought because they often times have a subconscious agenda that influences what they think and say. However, Randy Shields came across without an agenda when he voiced his thoughts on Ray and Tommy, not to mention he was spot on with his prediction. He basically said Hearns was clearly the bigger puncher, but Leonard because of his speed and versatility was more dangerous and would figure a way to neutralize Hearns' reach and power and win the fight. Shields called the fight right but he's more the exception than the rule.
Last week former WBO junior welterweight champ Kendall Holt and former IBF junior welterweight champ Paulie Malignaggi both picked Miguel Cotto to defeat Manny Pacquiao when they fight next month. Both Holt and Malignaggi implied that Cotto will be too physically strong for Pacquiao to handle. And Holt used Cotto's performances against Zab Judah and Shane Mosley as proof that Miguel can handle the fastest fighters in the world. They also agreed that Pacquiao beat a dried out and ring worn version of Oscar De La Hoya when he fought him this past December.
Obviously Holt and Malignaggi are very informed observers. There's also merit in what they say about Pacquiao beating an eroded version of De La Hoya, which in all fairness wasn't the prevailing thought by everyone before the fight. And if it was a guarantee that the same Cotto who fought Judah and Mosley was going to show up on November 14th and fight Pacquiao, it would be hard to pick against him. But that's not reality. The reality is Cotto is not the same fighter now in late 2009 as he was in 2007. He's also much more prone to getting cut and busted up and doesn't fight with the confidence and belief that he can't lose.
Both Holt and Malignaggi have strongly endorsed Cotto which is a welcome change being that most fighters usually hedge when they're asked to pick the winner of a big fight. Although their opinion is highly valued, neither has ever fought Pacquiao. Most of the time fighters who actually fought both opponents in an upcoming fight don't agree on who will win for a plethora of reasons. Sometimes they'll favor the fighter they did better against or defeated, or they'll pick the one who they're better friends with or the one who by him winning enhances their own reputation, in hindsight. Fighters also occasionally choose politically. They may be thinking about how to best maximize their own chances for a payday against one of the guys somewhere down the line.
Fighters who fought a common opponent often view them much differently. Prior to the first Frazier-Ali fight, Jerry Quarry and Oscar Bonavena were Ali's two most recent opponents and both had recently fought Joe Frazier. When Quarry was asked who he thought would win after fighting Ali he didn't hesitate and said Joe was too tough and would probably stop him. Six weeks later Ali beat Bonavena. Immediately after the fight Howard Cosell couldn't resist and asked Oscar who he picked to win between Ali and Frazier. And like Quarry, Bonavena didn't hesitate and declared Ali was the superior fighter and wouldn't have any trouble beating Frazier.
Looking back it was easy to see why Quarry and Bonavena said what they did based on their fights with Muhammad and Joe. In Quarry's case he probably wasn't blown away by Ali the fighter because he lost due to a cut and didn't feel as though he was out-manned against him. On the other hand he went to war with Frazier and lost a toe-to-toe slug-fest and no doubt was more hurt by Joe than he was Ali. In regards to Bonavena, his short stature somewhat nullified Frazier's body attack which led to Oscar going the distance with Frazier twice, not to mention he had Frazier down twice in their first fight. Also, Frazier never really had Bonavena in trouble or close to going down or out. However, Ali hurt Bonavena badly in the last round of their bout and was the first and only fighter to ever stop him. Which no doubt left an impression on Oscar and made it easy for him to reason why Ali would beat Frazier.
I remember asking Evander Holyfield at the post fight press-conference after his fight with Hasim Rahman who he favored to win next week between Lennox Lewis and Mike Tyson. With Evander having shared shared the ring with both guys twice each, his insight was welcome. And just as Quarry and Bonavena didn't blink answering about Ali and Frazier, neither did Holyfield hesitate in picking between Lewis and Tyson.
He said, "Oh, I like Mike to beat Lennox, he's much tougher." As we continued to speak it was so apparent that Evander respected Tyson much more as a fighter than he did Lennox. It was if he was coming from the same mindset as Quarry did comparing Ali and Frazier. Evander came across as if Lennox didn't beat him nor was he ever in fear of losing or being hurt by him, as opposed to him having to fight and literally take it from Tyson. It was almost as if Holyfield was dismissive towards Lewis and thought of Tyson as being the tougher and braver fighter.
And it's for reasons like the above that the common opponent evaluation is not the be all-end all when it comes to picking the winner of a fight. It's interesting to hear what a common opponent of both fighters has to say, but they get it wrong as much as they do right.
Frank Lotierzo can be contacted at GlovedFist@Gmail.com
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dr3r42:
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Same thing with power. A lot of fighters tend to favor the fighters that they beat rather than the ones they lost to- it might be subconscious. I remember reading where Jack Sharkey said that Jack Dempsey hit harder than Joe Louis. But if you look at their fights Sharkey stood toe to toe with Dempsey (losing on a fluke when he turned to argue with the ref) yet got blown away by Louis. Same thing with Braddock, who said Max Baer hit harder than Louis (Louis blew Braddock away, and Braddock beat Baer). Larry Holmes has stated that Jerry Cooney and Earnie Shavers, two guys he beat, hit harder than Mike Tyson, who KO'ed Holmes. Floyd Patterson said that Ingo hit harder than Liston, who Patterson never even got out of the first round against. I think it's more soothing to ones' ego to give more credit to a guy who you beat, rather than giving credit to a guy who destroyed you
Wednesday Oct 14, 2009 05:27:02 PM
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RG - Superelitefightwriter F-Lo is da Masterpiece Maharajah - KNEEL 2 da ROYAL 1:
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Another sweet, righteous masterpiece. That is all I can and will say. Holla!
Wednesday Oct 14, 2009 05:43:40 PM
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hanson:
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Very thoughtful and good article. Share that with people who already claim that Mayweather will run over Pac Monster given that he overwhelmed an "over-bulked" and slow Marquez.
Wednesday Oct 14, 2009 07:53:58 PM
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Anony:
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GREAT TOPIC... but in the case of Cotto Vs. Pacquiao anything can happen. Most Likely it will go to decision or Cotto will KO Pacquiao. Those saying Pacquiao will KO Cotto should make a fine assessment looking into Cotto's career. The only chance I give Pacquiao is by decision, and close decision. But he likes to engage and Cotto will impose his boxing. Remember Cotto is still undefeat. Margacheato did cheat.
Wednesday Oct 14, 2009 08:02:32 PM
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Barry Tesar:
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I cut my boxing teeth way back in the early 1960's avidly reading Ring Magazine and Boxing Illustrated. Neither magazine, did I think, was especially blessed with competent writers or imaginative stories—and I was only ten years old at the time. Yet, even at that early age, I was a good judge of what made for greatness both in the boxing ring and behind the typewriter.
Frank, I know a little about your history, so I know you were a darn good fighter in your day. But no matter how good you were as a boxer, your real gift is as a writer. Your stories are always interesting, insightful, and fun to read. I even agree with you most of the time, which in itself is an amazing thing. Looking back, I remember very few times when I ever agreed with Nat Fleischer about anything. Keep up the great work! I will continue being a boxing fan for as long as you continue writing.
Wednesday Oct 14, 2009 08:22:08 PM
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Fe'Roz @ Anony:
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I know you love your boy Miguel but if Manny can take his punches even marginally as close as Margarito took absorbed them, your boy is going down. MC lost Margarito. he is not undefeated. He knew that in the eighth round of his fight.... when he looked at his uncle and said with his eyes, WTF. This guy has taken my very best shots and he keeps coming. As I said, if.... and that's a very big if... Manny can take the shots that Cotto can and does land, he will win by decision if he hasn't already knocked out Miguel. You severely under estimate the power that is derived from the speed generated in MP punches. Miguel won't. This one is the fight of the year. Two great warriors. No prisoners taken. good luck to both men..... and thank you for having the cojones to make this fight.
Wednesday Oct 14, 2009 10:21:39 PM
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Isaiah:
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You all know in the Cotto/Pacquiao fight that Cotto's got this one! Cotto's going to rough Manny up with power, speed, and boxing skill, (everything Manny has, but Cotto's naturally larger size will be the difference) and KO Manny in the 10th buddy! Floyd Mayweather after the fight will have Vitali Klitschko take the microphone away from Cotto and Floyd will announce his next match will be him and his new business partner Oscar De La Hoya in a handicap, tagteam match against actress Dakota Fanning. When Oscar is busy and Floyd is unable to tag out, Floyd will have to settle for a close SD against Ms. Fanning where after Floyd will call out one of Miguel Cotto's kids.
Wednesday Oct 14, 2009 11:29:21 PM
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Alexandr Hermann:
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It's given that Cotto and Pacquiao are among the best. One thing that will defeat Cotto is his weight manipulation. At 160 lbs, Cotto will try to shed off 15 lbs within two months before the weigh in, and then try to gobble up anything he can to rehydrate. Come fight time, he will be weighing 155-160 lbs. which will make him very sluggish and will emotionally drain and frustrate him within the first three rounds. Cotto will defeat himself. If he can survive the Pacquiao fight in good health, he would rather campaign in a heavier division where he will become physically at ease.
Thursday Oct 15, 2009 01:41:33 AM
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Lee21:
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What a great article that you have here but I can't help but think how it is related with Cotto/Pacquiao match when they don't have a common opponet right? Secondly I'm all worried about Cotto fighting dirty with not only with the Judah fight where his aim where shifted from Judah's head to his balls and in Clottey's where he would tackle his boxer opponent. My concern is with Pacquiao because when his opponent fights dirty he doesn't know how to fight nor fight them in even terms. You can see this in his fight with Nedal Hussein and the late Agapito Sanchez and you could throw Barrera in there too. Pacquiao is fights too clean for his own good.
Thursday Oct 15, 2009 03:07:59 AM
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nameless:
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who wants to listen to malignaggi and holt anyway.holt hasn't proved anything nor faced the toughest opposition unlike pac. paulie lost to hatton that pac blew away in 2 rounds. malignaggi handled cotto's power (well,almost.with a broken jaw). maybe malignaggi is dreaming that he's tougher than pacquiao?wake up paulie,pac will destroy you in 1 round if you ever face him,LOL
Thursday Oct 15, 2009 06:43:45 AM
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max_green:
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Anony, still you underestimate the power and speed of the pacman. I will tell you this, Pacman by KO, Rd. 7.
Thursday Oct 15, 2009 08:37:14 AM
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Matthew:
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Good points by Frank. Styles make fights, and just because a fighter does well against one opponent, doesn't necessarily mean he will be as successful against another. Holyfield's style and mental toughness would beat Tyson any day of the week. Lewis' size, strength, and ability to control distance will always beat Tyson. On the other hand, Holyfield always had trouble with bigger guys (Lewis, Bowe), especially with Bowe's ability to fight inside. Common opponents sometimes have good insight, but they don't always get it right (especially in the case of Holyfield's prediction).
Thursday Oct 15, 2009 09:45:20 AM
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Anony @ Nostradamus People:
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GUYS... YOU ARE ALL TRYING TO MAKE SENSE IN A SCIENCE THAT IS TOO MUCH UNPREDICTABLE... First Pacquiao is too busy making movies, then Cotto's camp have lesser names sparring partners, then Pacquiao looks incredible, then other Boxers start giving two cents, then Roach starts the mind game, then Alex Ariza says something else, now each camp switch their cut man, then Cotto might have problem with Pac's speed, then bla, bla, blaaaaaaa. PLEASE.... This fight could be over in less than two rounds if Cotto impose himself and LUCKILY connects Pacquiao well enough to keep him down. On the other hand, Pacquiao could win if he LUCKILY manages to stay out of trouble for 12 rounds. SOOOOO.... IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW MUCH WE (AND WRITERS) TRY TO LOOK LIKE NOSTRADAMUS, THE ONLY DETERMINING FACTOR PLAYING IN THIS FIGHT WHERE YOU HAVE TWO EXPERIENCED ELITE BOXERS MEASURING SPEED VS. POWER IS ........... LUCK.
Thursday Oct 15, 2009 09:51:04 AM
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Anony:
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BUT.... I STILL BELIEVE COTTO HAS BETTER CHANCE THAN MANNY if he lands big combos vs. Pacman managing to stay out of trouble for full12 rounds.
Thursday Oct 15, 2009 09:54:04 AM
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Jing Tapia:
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I have to give it to you Frank ... your insights and comparative analysis deserves a tap on the back... your guess is as good as mine on who's gonna win the up and coming mega fight come 14th of Nov.
and if I may add sir Lotierzo... Nobody then really believes that Ali ( though faster and agile ) would upend, much less KO, the bone chilling KO artist George Foreman.
The manner Big George manhandled Smokin' Joe and Ken Norton before facing Ali was something to think about... Foreman did'nt just beat these two guys ( where both had a classic fight with Ali ), he almost killed both! ( with a single punch ! )
As skillful and crafty boxers like Sugar Ray and Muhammad Ali, I am with the belief that the more mobile and faster hands in Pacman's person and resume' would end up with results just as what did in Ali and Sugar Ray's cases.
His signature wins over hard hitters with the likes of Chatchai Sasakul, Ledwaba, Agapito Sanchez, Barrera, Morales, Marquez, Diaz, the Golden Boy and the HItman are but testimonials that he has what it takes to bring it on with real bangers. May it be heavy hitters or crafty fighters, the Pacman always have an answer...
Unparalelled Speedo!
What's the use of having strong hands if it can't even find its marks?
You can't hit what you can't see!
The scarry thing here is... the Pacman packs with blinding jabs and can follow 'em up with up to 3, 4 or even 5 blistering hits with milisecond intervals between 'em!
His newly developed right hook provides problem with utter confusion amongst recent Pacman bigtime victims.
Cue here is that... Manny is, in reality, a Left and Right hander at the same time. He plays darts, eat, shoot the hoop and writes with his Right hand all along.
]The reason perhaps why Freddy started to develop and enhance Manny's right to serve as his extra lethal arsenal.
Not from his Left to his Right... but both the left and the right.... wow! that indeed is a scarry fact among his opponents.
Imagine, having to fight an opponent with TWO lethal weapons instead of the usual foe with just ONE? with the left OR the right... but never AND ! ( both left AND right )
... and Miguel Cotto only knows too well of these facts... if not, how then can you explain his long preparation for this bout?
He did'nt prepared this lengthily against Mosley or Margarito!
He knows exactly what he's up to in Manny.
I would like to believe he's preparing like hell...
something like... the manner of parrying plates and drinking glasses being thrown at you by your wife upon knowing that you have another girl!
Thursday Oct 15, 2009 10:15:19 AM
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Aquino:
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Boxing experts will always say, Styles makes fights and I totally agree. Floyd Sr once said, whats the use of power if you got nothing to hit, I think thats the best word Ive ever heard from Floyd Sr. because its a fact. Look what happen to Hatton, he got a lot of power but I dont see him hit the Pacman at that fight. Cotto likes to corner his opponent and thats where he start to show his deadly skills. I dont think he can do that to the Pacman base on Manny's Foot work and Speed. Even De la Hoya once said, He can move from any angle and he can punch from any angle as well with speed, power and accuracy. I think Coach roach had a valid reason why he said that Cotto will revert on Playing dirty when he gets frustrated, because Pacman is soo fast and He got nothing to hit. so styles makes Fights.
Thursday Oct 15, 2009 12:57:22 PM
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brownsugar:
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Frank sort of paints a portrait of boxers being similar to snitches,.. infomants,.. survival contestants,.. social engineers,.. and greasy power mongering politicians,..with thier opinions and allegences,..... I have to agree to a certain extent,.. if Buster Douglas had gone on to destroy Holyfield,.. Tyson would have been saying he got caught by a great champion instead " I wasn't in shape" ,.. Pac is definitely a special fighter,.. but lets not forget how much he got hit while burning his way up the ranks,.. against a motivated fighter who's not drained by making weight,.. we may see a completely different fight than adverstised...
Thursday Oct 15, 2009 05:27:54 PM
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MisterLee@ brownsugar:
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Just curious, when was the last time pacman got hit flush? If i remember right, Morales pacquiao 2 was the last time pacman got sort of buzzed, or some may say morales 1, and morales 3 was the time pacquiao became a more skilled and two handed fighter. you know, morales did fight david diaz and he did get hit by diaz and he did lose to diaz, so this shows that diaz, who did better than a hatton at jr. welter and an oscar at welter was not the "bum" everyone thought he was. in essence, since morales 3, pacquiao has been untouchable, and marquez is not a heavy puncher and he just so happened to the have the style to nullify pacquiao's offense, the only guy who could do it. pc! Tss rules!
Thursday Oct 15, 2009 09:30:33 PM
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brownsugar@MisterLee:
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Pac has ended up a bloody swollen mess with at least one eye closed at the end of at least 4 or 5 fights I can think of,..(thats part of why so many people love him,.. he's a blood and guts warrior),.... off the top of my head,.. in his wars with JMM, Morales,.and Barrera,... later JMM had him a punch or two away from a KO in their last fight,.. as I said in my post,.. "on his way up the ranks" he fought many a toe to toe battle,.. yes I see some good improvement and growth,.. and it's not his fault Oscar was drained and Hatton tried to fight at 140 one time too many while dropping 45 lbs to cut weight,.. Pac did his job,... If Cotto is healthy at 145,... he will connect on the Pacman,...at some point during the fight,.. what happens after that remains to be seen...
Thursday Oct 15, 2009 10:11:07 PM
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jing tapia:
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hey brown sugar... what if d Pacman actually pulls off this one against No Angel? does that mean you'll become a believer?
I understand... Mr. Floyd Sr. is now a true believer ( though indirectly ) by stating that Manny enhanced his recent signature victories with the aid of steroids.
Face it brown sugar... don't complicate things by providing Post fight analysis ( discredits ) on Manny's stellar accomplishments. Yes, Manny is a gate crusher at the welterweight division that's supposedly being dominated by Mosley and Mayweather, both uncle Sam's product. For Pete's sake... don't you get it? Manny is not a small welterweight fighter... he's not even a bloated welterweight... he's actually an EVOLUTION MAN whoose body and strength keeps on moving upwards... Kindly review Manny's record and take note his KO ratio whenever he jumps into higher division. It is something like that of the Rambo thing… As Stallone goes up to the next level of enemy line… his arsenal becomes more complicated and dangerous. Perhaps, the reason why the director chose Stallone’s character as Rambo, he only knew it too well that it just wouldn’t apply to a Rocky Balboa thing. In boxing… as a boxer increases in weight, the more dangerous it is for him… well… at least… not with Pacquiao! He's actually evolving! Manny's gonna beat PBF and Shane after Cotto... you'll see... Be a believer now Mr. Brown Sugar... forget the urge of showing off your wits... just be real... and savor the good feeling others have as mine ... Manny is the real Mcoy ! You'll be one of us... you'll see...
Friday Oct 16, 2009 02:18:19 AM
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brownsugar@jing tapia:
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jing,.. Pacman is already a favorite of mine,.. and my entire family's,.... he's an incredible talent,... you don't have to pump him up to me,... I'm already a believer,.. I just like to play devils advocate to level out the hype ,... he's good,.. maybe even great,.. but he's still just a man,... I wish Pac the best in all his endeavors,.. I even got a picture of him on my mantle piece....
Friday Oct 16, 2009 03:25:31 PM
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Angie And Goody...23 Years Later
Twenty three years later after they seconded Marvin Hagler and Ray Leonard in Las Vegas, Goody Petronelli and Angelo Dundee crossed paths again. This time, it was at Foxwoods. Photo/friend of TSS "The Iceman" John Scully reports there were only pleasantries exchanged. Goody didn't debate the split decision victory enjoyed by Leonard, which to this day Hagler disputes.
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