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| Lotierzo helps clear up some misconceptions that cling to Marciano 40 years after his passing. |
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Rocky Marciano: As A Fighter He Was Almost Beyond Criticism
By Frank Lotierzo
Forty years ago (August 31, 1969) on the eve of his 46th birthday he was killed in a plane that crashed over a desolate field in Des Monies. He was born Rocco Francis Marchegiano. Due to his mother being dead set against him fighting, he fought under the name Rocky Marciano so she wouldn't know it was her son who was knocking every body out when she read it in the newspaper.
Rocky Marciano retired as heavyweight champ with a final career record of 49-0 (43) shortly after knocking out reigning light heavyweight champ Archie Moore in his last fight on September 21st of 1955. Marciano's undefeated record has only been challenged once legitimately, and that was by former heavyweight champ Larry Holmes. Ironically, Holmes was 48-0 when he lost bout 49 to reigning light heavyweight champ Michael Spinks thirty years to the day after Marciano beat Moore on September 21st, 1985.
Through the years despite going undefeated Marciano's worthiness as one of the all-time great heavyweight champs has been challenged by some respected boxing historians and observers. Their complaint disputing Rocky's place among the greatest of the greats is usually centered around the fact that the four most notable fighters he defeated, Joe Louis (37), Jersey Joe Walcott (38), Ezzard Charles (one month shy of 33) and Archie Moore (38) were older and past their prime when Rocky beat them. Which is not only a fact, it's a fair point. That said, it must be emphatically stated that Marciano fought every top fighter of his era and didn't avoid or duck anyone.
The same boxing aficionados who question Marciano's level of opposition credit Muhammad Ali for fighting and beating the best generation of heavyweights ever during his perceived prime. If Ali's opposition was so terrific, what does it say about Marciano that Muhammad only fought two fighters, Sonny Liston and George Foreman, who would've been a definite favorite to beat Marciano. I'm not counting Larry Holmes since Ali was washed up when they fought. If you chose to count Holmes then Ali only faced three fighters who would've been favored over Marciano at their best. A bout between prime Marciano and Joe Frazier would be a 6-5 pick 'em either way. As great as I think Frazier was, I can't say I believe he'd be a solid favorite to beat Marciano or vice-versa. Other Ali opponents such as Cleveland Williams, Ron Lyle and Earnie Shavers would have had a shot to beat Rocky, but it's not the side of the bet I'd be on.
It can be argued that Rocky Marciano in some ways is the most underrated and overrated heavyweight champ in history, something that won't be debated or settled here. What will be addressed is some of the misconceptions about Rocky Marciano the fighter.
Marciano fought from a low crouch and forced his opponents to reach for him. Some fans and writers speak as if Marciano's defense were on the level of former middleweight champ Vito Antuofermo's, something that couldn't be more wrong. Rocky wasn't an upright walk straight-in can't miss brawler. It's better stated that Rocky was sometimes nailed cleanly by an opponent's lead punch.
Both Walcott and Moore dropped Marciano early in their fight with a lead punch. Walcott just went to Marciano and followed up a short feint with a lead left-hook and dropped him for the first time in his career. Moore caught Rocky with a counter lead right hand that dropped him as he was following Archie around the ring. However, you won't find much footage of any Marciano opponent getting off on him with combinations or successive punches. A quick handed opponent could get him with their lead shot enough to keep them in the fight for a while. But Marciano had great instincts and either got low and underneath or rolled away from the follow up punches coming behind the lead shot that caught him. And think about some of the sharpshooters he was in with. Louis, Walcott, Charles and Moore may have been past their prime when they fought Marciano, but no other fighters around at that time were handling them the way Rocky did.
Another falsehood that's been reported over the years is how Marciano beat his opponents, mainly Roland LaStarza in their second fight, on the forearms and biceps so much that they couldn't hold their arms up, thus leaving their chin exposed for Marciano's big right hand, known as the "Suzy Q." After watching every piece of Marciano film available, the footage of him continually beating on his opponents arms to the point they couldn't hold them up doesn't exist. Rocky hit his opponents wherever he could because he knew he had fight altering power in both hands. He also carried his power from round one through 15, making him that much more dangerous.
What can't be disputed about Marciano and his record is - he was the best conditioned heavyweight who has yet lived. Marciano trained and prepared for all of his fights as if he had to make weight. He went away to camp for all of his title fights and his mindset was, maybe my opponent is more skilled than I am, but his body can't beat mine and that'll be the difference and turn the fight in my favor. On top of that Marciano had ice water in his veins. He actually fell asleep and had to be woken up while in his dressing room to get ready to go fight. That alone puts him on a short list of fighters.
If you think about all the past great heavyweight champions from John L. Sullivan through Lennox Lewis, it can be pointed out that had they done one or two things a little better they would've been even greater than they were. That cannot be said about Rocky Marciano.
In many ways Marciano was a fighter that was beyond criticism. He was short and had short arms for his height. His reach was only 68 inches, three inches shorter than Mike Tyson's and five inches shorter than Joe Frazier's. Rocky didn't have the fastest hands or feet around, but he seemed to cover a lot of ground quickly while tracking down his opponents. He fought the toughest style that any fighter could have to fight being a swarmer. His trainer Charlie Goldman taught Rocky how to fight out of a crouch and present himself as a small target making it more difficult for his opponent to hit him. Marciano applied constant mental and physical pressure and had the ability to always deliver his power. He never showed up in so-so shape nor did he take any opponent lightly. On top of that, winning was living and losing was dying as far as he was concerned.
Ranking fighters is conjecture. Forget for a moment where you think Rocky Marciano ranks among the pantheon of all-time great heavyweight champs. There's one thing about Marciano that can be said with impunity. No, he wasn't a perfect fighter, but looking back there isn't a single thing he could've done that would've made him a better/greater fighter than he was.
How many fighters can that be said about?
Frank Lotierzo can be contacted at GlovedFist@Gmail.com
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Anony:
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Great reading!!!! I just wish Youtube had better footage from Marciano fights. Even those old ESPN fights I have seen the footage is blurry and you can't even distinguish people's face. All of the sudden you notice you grow up believing what people repeat throughout your life.. Rocky "Marciano was the Best!". He or Ali... but at the end I find Joe Louis to really be the best. I admire him the most.
Tuesday Sep 1, 2009 12:08:15 PM
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GOAT:
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Total Bull Sh*t! Marciano was an at best average heavyweight. Joe Frazier would have mopped the floor with him! He was slow, ploding, no left hand, and SMALL. He weighed I believe around 190 lbs! Marciano is the most overrated boxer in history. The writer is Italian American so I guess that played a part in his opinion of Marciano.
Tuesday Sep 1, 2009 12:18:13 PM
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Radam G, a humble PacManite:
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Wow! I'm reminded of the masterpiece theather. Fightwriter F-Lo is a masterpiece keyboard tapper, straight-up righteous pugilistic rapper. I don't know why anybody compare Rocky with any of the heavyweights after his time. He would not have fought with them. Every time I look around, historians and fightwriters are calling Ezzard Charles one of the great cruiserweight of all times. WHY? The cat fought heavy in his days. So since writers feel no harm in changing history with him, change it with the ROCK. By nowadays standards, Rocky would have been even a small cruiserweight. And the only one -- so far -- that could come close to competing with him is cruiserweight Evander Holyfield. "Ranking fighters is conjecture." Among the all-time great cruiserweight Rocky rank number one. Among the heavy, he ranks four, behind a young Joe Louis, and a young and old GOAT Ali. Rocky was a slick fighter, not a catcher or nutty slugger. He would have destroy Sonny Liston. He would have kayo a young George Foreman, and fought to a draw with the old Rev. George. OMG! I'm going to give my nine percent to God! Ain't ready for the 10 that Rev. George told me about yet. Lmfao! I'm such a rich sinner. Holla!
Tuesday Sep 1, 2009 12:20:08 PM
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jack:
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The "Rock" has been my favourite fighter since I can remember.Even though I was born only 5 months before he passed away. I have read,watched countless old fights and studied him since I was only about 10 years old.Long live Rocky,and may he rest in peace.
Tuesday Sep 1, 2009 12:24:10 PM
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Arturo:
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I kind imagine him sort of like a Calzhage.Except the lack of power That Calzhage has is made up by the super high work rate per round.It just seems like we want to see undefeated fighters get pushed beyond limits just to prove to me that they deserve to keep that 0 in they're record.Just like people are eager to see Mayweather lose
Tuesday Sep 1, 2009 12:36:24 PM
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Anony @ GOAT:
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Dude.. that was a lame comment about Lotierzo. He always backup his stories with great insights and stats. He is one of the P4P writers here and we appreciate his work.
Tuesday Sep 1, 2009 01:39:57 PM
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RDot75:
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At best Rocky Marciano was one of the greatest fighter to ever live. Just as he was one the of the only fighter to ever retire undefeated and stay retire. Totally nutty to hate on him.
Tuesday Sep 1, 2009 01:40:34 PM
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Aleksander:
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The only guy that Marciano missed during his reign was Sonny Liston. Sonny was 13-1 at the end of 1955, the last year that Rocky fought. I'm sure that he was aware of Liston and his presence in the division and that may have hastened his retirement. That's conjecture, but I'd have liked to have seen some mention of Liston in here. As much as I love Marciano, he was a light heavyweight/cruiserweight. I think Liston would have devoured him. A PRIME Sonny Liston, the one who KO'd a PRIME pre-gunshot Cleveland Williams would have beaten ANY man who ever walked this earth.
Tuesday Sep 1, 2009 02:04:11 PM
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Aleksander:
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Regarding "The Rock's" 49-0 record, Holmes came close and Nicolai Valuev also came close (46-0). I believe Malik Scott is being groomed for that record as well. TSS profiled him within the last 12 months, and it's my understanding he's about 38-0. His promoter makes no bones about it; the goal with Scott is to keep feeding him guys like Marcus Rhodes, Jeremy Bates, guys of this ilk, and pump his boxrec to 49-0, and then get him an alphabet shot, and if he wins, retire with the record and then in 5 years, Canostota.
Tuesday Sep 1, 2009 02:09:15 PM
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Jerry @ GOAT:
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Not a cool comment GOAT. Rocky Marciano was NOT a small heavyweight by the standards of his era (1940's & 1950's). Sure, by today's standards, he wasn't big. Up until the 1990's, great heavyweights were between 205 and 220. Riddick Bowe was the first supersized guy, and I believe he only weighed about 225 against Evander the first time. I believe Foreman was under 210 in his 1st career too, and he was considered BIG.
Tuesday Sep 1, 2009 02:15:25 PM
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Frank Z:
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Thanks for highlighting the fact that marciano had a legitly good defense F-lo. a lot of people seem to think that just because someone is aggressive and powerful that they were facefirst brawlers. seeing some of his fight clips he was really good at ducking out of the opponent's punching angles and rolling back with counterhooks. He was fluid with his punches too, they just look raw because he liked to get inside and throw hooks instead of straight shots, and he wasn't fast with his hands, which is big casue being fast gets mistaken for being skilled a lotta the time (zab judah?).
Tuesday Sep 1, 2009 02:20:05 PM
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Master Snake:
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I can't help but think of the barber shop argument in Eddie Murphey's Coming to America whenever I hear/read this conversation. Wish there were more footage to watch of this tremendous fighter. Tragic endings seem to sadly be the final page for many of those who leave us in awe and admiration.
Tuesday Sep 1, 2009 02:39:26 PM
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#1 PacFan "KO's Cotto in 7":
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What a delightful read F-Lo. Enjoyed every bit of it. To me Rocky ranks in the top ten ATG Heavyweights ever. But he doesn't make the top 5 in my opinion. Louis, Moore, and Walcott were way past their prime which clearly explains how easy Rocky made ground meat out of them. A prime Louis would have exposed Marciano and knocked him out in the mid-rounds.
Tuesday Sep 1, 2009 03:09:11 PM
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#1 PacFan "KO's Cotto in 7":
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I'm sorry to say this but his undefeated record doesn't impress me that much. But he's definitely an ATG!
Tuesday Sep 1, 2009 03:11:23 PM
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ali:
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Im not a fan but I would have to put him in the top 10 just because he was the #1 heavyweight of his time. Now do I think heavyweights that are not in the top 10 all-time would have beat him hell yeah Guys like Riddick Bowe Ken Norton & Sonny Liston just to name a few.
Tuesday Sep 1, 2009 03:21:08 PM
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Scott M:
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Writers of Rocky's time often referred to his style as "crude", and after watching old footage of his fights on ESPN Classic,
I would cetainly agree with this opinion. He tended to wing many of his punches, and would often get caught with clean punches while he was trying to get inside. Also, the fact that many of the best fighters he beat were past their primes is a valid point. That being said, I feel it's somewhat unfair to match fighters from different eras in fictional "Dream Matches". Do I believe Rocky could beat the other all-time heavyweight greats, while they were in their respective primes, and at their best? Probably not. But, he was certainly the greatest heavyweight of HIS era, and the fact that he retired undefeated is noteworthy. He made up for his lack of reach and size with toughness and determination (and a very hard punch) so I still have him rated among the top ten heavyweights in history. Could he have been even better? Definitely. But, regardless of that fact, he was the greatest heavyweight of his era, and, unlike Dempsey (who wouldn't face black fighters) Rocky faced just about everyone around at the time, so he deserves his rightful place in history.
Tuesday Sep 1, 2009 03:31:29 PM
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Scott M:
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#1 PacFan, I agree that Rocky gets Kayoed by a prime Louis!
Tuesday Sep 1, 2009 03:33:43 PM
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Robert Curtis:
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Frank, this is your best yet. Brilliant. This is the most concise and fair portrait of Rocky Marciano I have read. Thanks for all your research and well chosen details. I've found some of Marciano's later fights on DVD from private collectors. Rocky was as relentless and had as much heart as Frazier or Robinson or anyone you can name. As you say, Frank, he also had the deepest gas tank. He was hittable, no doubt. I think some of his fights might have been stopped on cuts in the modern era. The Rock's greatest asset was his lack of fear combined with constant punching. Too many fighters get timid when things get rough and become afraid to initiate. Marciano never waited for the other guy. He was always focused with both eyes open. His awkward style also troubled his opponents. Archie Moore wrote something interesting about Rocky. He wrote that Marciano came whirling at you like a ship's propellor, but the blades kept changing speeds. It is questionable whether Rocky could handle the bigger heavyweights who followed his reign. I believe Rocky stood 5'10" and weighed 185 pounds, with a 67" reach. With those dimensions, he'd almost look like a dwarf next to Lennox Lewis or Vitali. But any sane heavyweight would be scared if they saw Marciano warming up in the opposite corner.
Tuesday Sep 1, 2009 04:41:59 PM
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Robert Curtis:
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I echo that GOAT was out of line. Frank wrote a fair and factual piece here. His thesis was NOT that Rocky Marciano would beat every all time heavyweight great. His point was that Marciano made the absolute most of his limited gifts.
Tuesday Sep 1, 2009 04:57:56 PM
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brownsugar:
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Rocky was a relentless fighting machine,.. had the heart of a warrior,.. but sadly had too few "in prime" competitors to bring out his very best,.. its fine to shower dead men with praises that they never truly earned in life,.. especially in Rocky's case because he stood for decency,.. class,.. and an indominitable fighting spirit,..he was also an extremely likable fighter from a fan perspective and he crushed nearly everybody they put in front of him,.. .... but lets ease up on some of the cheese cake,.. ....the most "in shape heavy of all time"??....... I could partly agree with that if he fought on his toes,.. dancing while throwing lightning fast combos,.. but the Rock bent forward at the waist,... many times at kneecap level,.. as he inched toward his opponents with one hand dragging the canvas while carrying a hayemaker from Panama,.. lets celebrate the former legends and never forget what they brought to the sport ,...especially Rocky,.... may they RIP,.. but please,... lets keep things in perspective....and out of the tall tales (Paul Bunyan) category.....
Tuesday Sep 1, 2009 04:58:08 PM
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Radam G, a most humble PacManite saying 2 get it right :
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Rocky Marciano is the most underrated heavyweight champion of all times. Larry Holmes is the most overrated heavywweight champion of all times. He beat a suspected 36-year-old Kenny Norton for the paper title. Norton never won a title fight in the boxing ring. Holmes beat a 38-old Muhammad Ali, a suspected 37-year-old Ernie Shaver. Norton and Shaver were notrious for age trickery. Holmes beat up a young, brainwashed-on-God-Helping-him Marvis Frazier, knocked-out a 30-something year-old construction working Michael Weaver and did a job on a Rocky-Balboa-believing-eye-of-the-tiger Gerry Cooney. Holmes was later stripped of the WBC Holla-4-a-Dolla belt and given the new corrupted IBF pay-to-play title belt by the master-of-getting-paid-to-rank-a-fighter Robert Lee. Holmes defended that alphabet-title against bums before losing it to a light-heavy. Now Rocky Marciano won a real belt in the boxing ring, never defended it against a bum and would have murder da bum Holmes. This dude never won a title from the jump that was fought for in the boxing ring. Like I say, Holmes fought Norton for a paper title and later in his career was given another paper one. Sorry about that Bobby C. Your boy Holmes was a lite weight when it came to truth champion-winning heavyweights. Holmes never bother to fight the real passdown title-belt champion of his day. That sucka would not unite the alphabet belt titles. Somehow the true lineage heavyweight champion ownership went array. It was really from Joe Frazier to George Foreman to Muhammad Ali to Leon Spinks to Ali to John Tate to Mike Weaver to Mike Dokes, etc., etc. Holla!
Tuesday Sep 1, 2009 05:24:18 PM
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Radam G, a most humble PacManite just wondering:
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I agree big time to never compare fighters of different era because boxing has gone through an unfair, punked-out evolution. Rocky would not stay a chance today because the powers that be softies would stop his bout and go to the score card because of his cuts, and a lot of these nowadays runners would have run to get a win. Just off the top of my head, Rocky would have lost about nine bouts because of cuts. And GOAT Ali would have been disqualified for clinching in nowadays artless hurt bitnezz. And if the GOAT was not disqualified, he'd lost some many points for clinching around the neck that he would have lost about 11 decisions. Jake LaMotta would have lost 80 percent of his bouts, because nowadays you get point for power puffing an opponent. Wow! I'd never wonder that Paul Malicrappy could get a decision won over Jake LaMotta, Carmen Basilio, Gene Fulmer and even Homicide Hank Armstrong. Of course I'm talking about when all these guys would have been Lightwelters-welters. Holla!
Tuesday Sep 1, 2009 05:45:53 PM
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Radam G, a most humble PacManite just funning:
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One thing for certain, though, is that Cristobal "The Nightmare" Arreola is going to kayo 38-year-old Dr. Vitali "Pee pee rustout ironfists" Klitschko. I can wait to hear all the haters of Chris for beating up on an over-the-hill quack of pee pee cheating. Wow! It is going to be fun. I can hear it now. "A 28-year-old Vitali would have killed the burrito-and-taco-eating fat bum!" Yup! I gonna eat me some serious burritos and tacos with my moola that I will surely win. And I'm giving Da Lord 10 percent on that night, because my pickets will be PHAT -- or is that FAT? Rev. George Foreman will be pround of me. He'd believe that he -- lmfao -- has finally saved my sinning arse. Holla!
Tuesday Sep 1, 2009 06:00:17 PM
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Anonymous user:
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Marciano was dropped by the two best punchers he fought Walcott and Moore (a light heavyweeight). He never defeated a first rate puncher who weighed over 200 pounds that was in his prime. He feasted on old men, has beens and never was's. Fleischer wrote, "Marciano cannot outbox anyone. He must rely entirely on durability to outlast smaller and frailer opponents. He’s too easy to hit, too easy to cut. His arms are too short for him to be a boxer. He knows nothing about the art of feinting and counterpunching, assets possessed to a high degree by such masters as Jack Johnson, Gene Tunney, and Tommy Loughran." Clearly Marciano lacked both real boxing skill and quality of opposition. He was well conditioned and could punch, beyong that there is plenty to criticize. The list of all time greats that would be favored to go 49-0 against Marciano's competition when he fought them would be a long one.
Tuesday Sep 1, 2009 08:50:34 PM
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Isaiah:
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Marciano's prime was awesome. Say what you want , but I don't see any other heavyweight champ retiring undefeated in their whole careers. Title defenses agians top 10 guys Rolando Starza and Don Cockell and against the legends listed above can't be denied. Past their prime or not they all gave him a good fight, but his will pulled him through. Marciano only rates behind Joe Louis in all all time great heavyweights. Yes, even above Ali. By the way, those guys sure didn't seem past their prime when they were still fighting around that time.
Tuesday Sep 1, 2009 10:22:43 PM
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Isaiah:
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Also, just like to point out, even a 38 year old Vitali Klitschko will still be way to much for Chris Arreola to handle. I'm just being realistic. They're about even in power, but Vital always shows up in shape, has a much better chin, longer reach, better pure boxing skills and even after watching those last rounds in the Gomez fight, I know Vitali can possibly run out of stamina, but I just don't see it happening. Chris has everything working against him except youth and a puncher's chance, but what good is that if Vitali won't tire out fast enough and not let Chris get close enough? Vitali will say, " Today boy, you'll fight out, you can lose! "
Wednesday Sep 2, 2009 12:28:40 AM
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Isaiah:
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Exscuse me. I meant to say find out, not fight out.
Wednesday Sep 2, 2009 12:30:02 AM
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BLUESMAN:
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I have a great deal of respect 4 Marciano. He was a great fighter & a great guy as well. It's too bad he died young in that plane crash. If Marciano & Frazier fought I don't think he could have hurt Smokin' Joe all that badly. Jersey Joe Walcott & Archie Moore, both previously light-heavyweights before they moved up in weight to fight heavyweights both dropped Marciano. Frazier was bigger & stronger than them & I think Frazier would have ko'ed Rocky Marciano in the first 2 or 3 rounds.
If Marciano had fought Foreman in a dream match, I think Formman would have ko'ed Marciano in less than a minute.
Arreola will CRUSH Vitali Klitschko!
Wednesday Sep 2, 2009 01:13:36 AM
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brownsugar:
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Isaiah I find Areola's footwork abysmal... he surely won't dance to a victory,. but if he survives the early onslaught,.. and has enough gas in the tank to do at least 10 hard rounds,...at some point he will put Vitali in a position he's never been in before,... getting abused by heavy shots to the head and body,...this is a 50 / 50 fight...and I hope Areola has enough to push through to victory,.. but I'd bet my next paycheck if it were Chambers instead of Areola he'd be exposed as a has been
Wednesday Sep 2, 2009 01:31:57 AM
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Isaiah:
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Yey, I'd rather see Eddie Chambers fight Vitali to, but the good news is Wladmer''s talking about fighting Chambers, so it seems like a win/win situation to me and it's better to be a has been then never was.
Wednesday Sep 2, 2009 02:24:17 AM
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Robert Curtis:
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Who did Larry Holmes duck? And what did Larry Holmes ever do to you, Radam? Is it just that you can never forgive him for beating your beloved friend Ali? I know Larry made an unwise crack about Marciano once, but he apologized and meant it. Larry was not handed anything by anyone. He was a guy from the streets who was a sparring partner and a paid punching bag for too many years. No one wanted Larry to get his shot. He persevered and earned it. NOTE to Frank and Editor Mike. Please do a Larry Holmes article one of these days. I know Frank will dig deep and get the facts.
Wednesday Sep 2, 2009 09:09:53 AM
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brownsugar:
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Marciano beating Ali???,.... as competitive as he was,.... I doubt he could have gotten past Roy Jones,... or even Gerry Cooney,... today he'd be a cruiserweight,.. guys like Adamek and Eddie CHambers would give him all he could handle.... but nobody was classier,.. or gave what Rocky gave in the ring,.. he took years off his life with every fight..would make Gatti and Mathew Saad Muhamad proud..
Wednesday Sep 2, 2009 09:38:36 AM
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dr3r42:
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Last time I checked Vitali was about a 10:1 favorite over Chris (6:1 back if you bet on Chris). Now I am sure the line will drop a little the closer to fight time, but still ... Not saying that the betting line tells you who is going to win (Vegas is trying to get equel money placed on both fighters, so they get the juice) , if I was that confident of Chris winning, I'd be loading up big time on him with those odds.
Wednesday Sep 2, 2009 09:52:06 AM
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dr3r42:
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As far as Norton being a tough fight for Holmes- that's styles. Norton's a pain in the rear for any boxer, who is not a big hitter. He gave Ali and Holmes fits because he fought of his back foot in his cross-over crouch and was leaning back . Both of them reached for him and got countered- more often than they did with most fighters. Still, I don't think Norton-Holmes was as close as some of the judges had it. Holmes had about a 6-1 lead in rounds by the mid way point (Merchante, doing the color comentary with Cosell, had Holmes way ahead). I think I had it 9-6 or 10-5 in rounds. And like Robert Curtis said, Holmes ducked no one (it was King that wouldn't put Dokes or Page in with him). Anti-Holmes people also talk about the Shavers fight. What, Larry won 22 out of the 23 rounds against Shavers in his two fights, and as far as the knockdown, that happens in boxing. Larry should get props for not only getting up from a shot like that (he leaned into a Shavers Sunday punch) but having the guts to not only survive the round but to come back and knock Shavers around the ring in the next round. Larry also had an underrated second career (overshadowed by Foreman's success), even as an old man he nearly won the title from McCall and outslicked an undefeated Ray Mercer.
Wednesday Sep 2, 2009 10:09:10 AM
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dr3r42:
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I will disagree with F-Lo on Rocky never ducking anyone. His manager, Al Weill (who was a snake), knowing that Rocky was a swarmer avoided big guys like Nino Valdes. Not saying that, in hindsight, Rocky wouldn't have destroyed Valdez, but Weill did duck him. I also believe that an old Joe Louis was the only contender who weighed over 200 llbs that Rocky fought.( Don Cockell was a stiff) Weill also avoided Archie Moore (afraid of Moore's power) and Moore had to go on a nationwide campaign to shame Rocky (Weill) into giving Moore a title shot.
Wednesday Sep 2, 2009 10:19:13 AM
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Robert Curtis:
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Just looking at boxrec and saw that Juan Manual Marquez has the same reach (67") that Marciano did! Does anyone still think the Rock could have banged with the big guys?
Wednesday Sep 2, 2009 11:06:07 AM
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Radam G, a most humble PacManite:
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Wow! Hey Bobby C, you are all up in my hizzy making me dizzy! You crack me up. But I'm just saying that Larry didn't win the legit, traditional heavyweight title belt. He won the WBC version that was given to Ken Norton who never won a title bout. And Larry lost that WBC version for refusing to fight the number one contender because of nationality, origin and skin color. The crooked, new IBF -- I Be Fudging -- then awarded Larry its title. "Larry Holmes makes the IBF legit," headlines read. I'm just dealing with the whole truth. Part of boxing is not just ducking punches. Sometimes you must duck opponents, organizations and social conditions. (In the 1980s, Larry Holmes was remindful of the 1920s Jack Dempsey. Larry was not fighting a South African -- a white man, because society was on his side, the same as society was on Dempsey's side for not fighting a black man -- Harry Willis. And Dempsey was no racist, neither was Larry. But they were both playing politics, instead of pugilism. Ali was the only fighter who would fight every opponent, even the U.S. government and his daddy. He just wouldn't fight "'em Viet congs. They never called {him} ______" The GOAT was truthfully DA Greatest. He shook up da Wiirrrooollllddddd!) I'm certain that Fightwriter F-Lo and Editor Mike can tell you exactly why Larry was stripped of the WBC belt, and that he couldn't wear GOAT Ali's jockey strap. Nor could Larry wear the jockey straps of Joe Frazier, Mike Tyson, Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano, Max Baer, Jack Johnson or James Jerrfies. Larry was good, but he was overhyped, and came along when the heavyweight division was like it is today -- WEAK! Sorry! And, yea, OKAY, I cried when Larry Holmes beat the GOAT. That was a scary year. My big godbrothers [Byron Lindsey, Paul Palomino, Jerome Steward, Lemule Steeples and Terry Anderson, who was from New England] and my godfather and coach -- Junior Robles -- died in a plane crash going to Warsaw, Poland. Matter of fact, Terry Anderson was from New England. I also pee peed -- if that is a word -- in Archie Moore's bed! And I pulled the hairpiece off my school teacher's head for insulting me by saying_____ _____ ____ ____, then my parents sent to boarding school in Hong Kong and the Philippines to cool off and grow up! I didn't see the USA again until junior high. Holla!
Wednesday Sep 2, 2009 11:29:52 AM
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dr3r42:
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Also, Norton was 32 years old when he fought Holmes, not a suspected 36. Shavers was 32 years old the first time he got shut out by Holmes and he was 34 years old the second time (not a suspected 37). Both Norton and Shavers were football stars in High School (Shavers at Newton Falls HS near Youngstown) in the early 1960's. Unless you are going to accuse them of playing High School football when they were 25 years old !
Wednesday Sep 2, 2009 11:34:09 AM
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FightFanWest:
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LOTS of hatred for Larry "The Easton Assassin "Holmes" here, and I don't like it one bit. Ali begged for that fight for $$$. Holmes purposely went easy on him. He could have brutalized Ali but didn't. He pawed at Muhammad and didn't celebrate in the least when it was over. He beat every contender of his era, aside from Spinks, which was debatable. Larry Holmes doesn't deserve this venom Radam, he simply doesn't. Let's not forget, he dominated a PRIME and undefeated Gerry Cooney and with a little more time to train, he'd have ended Mike Tyson's reign before it ever began. He got caught by a puncher in a fight that he took only for $$$. Holmes CORRECTLY said after the fight that he trained for only 2 weeks and did it for the $6 million payday, and also predicted that Tyson would be in prison inside of a few years, a prediction that came to pass. He also had a phenomenal 2nd act, 2nd to only Foreman's in the history of the sport. He beat an undefeated Gold Medalist in Mercer, gave Holyfield all he could handle, and narrowly lost to McCall, who has the best beard in the history of the sport.
Wednesday Sep 2, 2009 11:36:48 AM
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Radam G, a most humble PacManite knows how to fact check:
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dr3r42, dude, you are always up in everybody koolaid with your poppycock and b.s. Just based on Ken Norton's offical boxing age, he was 35 when he fought Larry Holmes. Or just maybe you cannot count. Ken Norton's boxing age has him born in 1943. If he fought Holmes in 1978, which he did, that would equal to 35 years old. I guess Norton was a teenager when he broke GOAT Ali's jaw. You need to do some math. Man, you are one _____ fanfaronade. Get a life! One can go to the official Ring Records, Boxrec and Fightfax to get Norton boxing age. And then, a genius like me, can go to his Marine Corps records, the State of Illinois of birth records -- Norton was born there -- and Boxing Scoops to get his actual age. Besides, before Kenny break Ali's jaw, he use to drop Kenny Jr off to play with my older brother and baby-arse me -- a rich kid from a Pinoy business and boxing family. So stop your cyberspace faking and humbuggery. Gosh, every punk becomes a bully behind those keyboards. You are a real keyboard killer. I see that FFW -- under that pseudonym has returned. I wonder if he has gotten his grill fixed, and moved out of that flophouse. Besides Don King got Larry Holmes $300,000 for the Tyson thrashing. FFW is still doing his jabberwacky. Holla!
Wednesday Sep 2, 2009 12:56:43 PM
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dr3r42:
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As far as me getting a life; I don't post 1/1000 the number of times that you do. Me, being an internet bully ? I don't call people names, nor do I brag about myself in terms of how much money I have, or who I know, or what I did, or what exotic site I am posting from. Norton fought Holmes on June 9, 1978. If Norton was born on August 9, 1943 - he'd have been 34 years old (not 36 like you earlier claimed, or 35 like you just claimed) You do the math. Other sources have him for August 9, 1945, which is 32 years old- again, you do the math. Yeah, I am sure you went to the Marine Corps for Norton's records (even if you did, lots of people lied about their ages to get into the service) or went to the state of Illinois birth records. Of course, you are the same guy who claimed he had fight films of Ezzard Charles dropping Joe Lous 2X's in their title fight, and were going to put them on You Tube. I am still waiting for that one
Wednesday Sep 2, 2009 01:46:05 PM
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Robert Curtis "looking for laughs and getting them":
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Cyberspace humbuggery, poppycock and jabberwacky? Hahaha. Oh Radam, with you around no one needs a television. LOL. You are Mr. Excitement. Go easy on dr3r42. He has schooled me a few times. I figure we'd all best go by what's listed on boxrec. I'm not going to bother looking there today, because I know that nothing I find there will convince me that Larry Holmes does not belong among the top 5 heavyweights of all time.
Wednesday Sep 2, 2009 01:49:07 PM
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Robert Curtis:
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All that and still humble too. NOT. But still funny. Hey, maybe some of you boxing masterbrains out there can confirm or deny this. I read that Jersey Joe Walcott was fired as Joe Louis's sparring partner because he knocked him out a couple times. Hmmm. What's that old journalists mantra? When the legend becomes fact, print the legend.
Wednesday Sep 2, 2009 02:04:49 PM
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Radam G, a most humble PacManite drinking coconut juice in Manila, PI:
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You never quit, robot! dr3r42, STFU! I'm reminded of Lost in Space. Danger! Danger! Will Robinson! Danger! Danger! Did somebody hurt your feelings? And learn how to read. King Simulacrum, I said that based on some boxing records, Kenny would have been 35 in 1978, and based on your own nonsense, he did turn 35. And for your information, robot, birth records are public information. And for your sorry info, Norton was born in August of 1942 -- that is his truthful age. It is also listed on Kenny Norton Jr's birth record. Junior's father was Kenny....You can lie all you want to about your age to get into the military, but since superior fact check systems -- starting in the 1980s -- your ass will be caught all the way back to the Civil War. The only way that you can get away with age trickery nowadays is be on the witness protection program or a spy working undercover for one of the agencies, or a defector -- like Joel Casamayor -- from a hated,"hostile" country. dr3r42, you don't know Jack or Jill, and couldn't find your way up a molehill. If you knew anything about boxing, you'd know that many boxers put the age down and the height up. Kenny put his age down. He started boxing in the Marine Corps at near 22 years old. Bob Foster put his age down by four years. He started boxing and coaching in the Air Force at 23 years old. Archie Moore put his age down by six years because upstarting aged pugilists didn't a shot. Casamayor put his age down by eight years plus. The USA wanted to give him a good opportunity to suceed in a youth-crazed culture. Even Gamboa has put his age down by a year and a half. Get out of my grill, bozo! This info is not hard to find. Get a life! I can be anywhere I want to, as long as I want to. Pass by what I post, and you won't have a problem. Don't read me. Pass me by just like you did certain school courses and certain life situations. Danger! Danger! You hate to be wrong. Maybe I will post being in your state, if and when I come there. Oops! I musta fo'got! You are lost in space -- or is that cyberspace. Hitch a ride with the next space shuttle back to earth. Holla!
Wednesday Sep 2, 2009 02:44:22 PM
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Radam G, a most humble PacManite gocha:
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In the 1960 census, Norton turned 18, not 15. Cassius Clay was 18. Joe Frazier was 16, with a son. George Foreman was 11. Ernie Shaver was 13. Ron Lyle was 12. Enough said. Holla!
Wednesday Sep 2, 2009 03:15:43 PM
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Radam Clone Zone:
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You have entered the TSS Twilight Zone a.k.a. the RCZ where no age, result, record, or or tale of the tape is what it seems. The truth is that Ken Norton was actually 44 when he fought Holmes. And he was actually Kendra Norton before a trip to Sweden in 1967 for an experimental operation. The medical records are sealed. But you can find a two inch scar in Kendra's, I mean Kenny's taint. Expect this humble Pacmanite spin more of my shrill swill up in your grill real soon you cyber space cadets. Nuff said. Holla!
Wednesday Sep 2, 2009 04:22:19 PM
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Smiley C:
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Wow! There are immature nutcases here fo' sure!
Wednesday Sep 2, 2009 04:57:36 PM
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dr3r42:
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Nice try on the 1960 Census. Only problem is that they havn't released the 1960 census to the public (I am sure you've got connections) and they won't release it until 2032. They release them every 72 years (the 1940 census comes out in 2012- I remember that from the Liston arguement). Deal- I'll leave you alone, you leave me alone.
Wednesday Sep 2, 2009 05:43:08 PM
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Isaiah:
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Larry Holmes was an excellent, highly underrated TRUE Heavyweight champion who was champ around 7 years. Those 7 years as the man, and to anyone who's full of it, Larry Holmes was the legit Heavyweight champion of the world, was only tied by Jack Dempsey and Jack Johnson on longevity and Larry defended his title way more then those guys. Look it up! In fact ONLY Joe Louis beats him in longevity as champ and title defense. Joe champ just under 12 years, 25 title defenses. Larry champ about 7and a half years, 20 titlle defenses! That's about 3 defenses a year and being robbed blind in both Mike Spinks fights! Larry Holmes was awesome and matter of fact Radam G, lay the heck off the beast Ken Norton too. You just mad you'll never be cut like he was in his prime! Shoot, some people actin like Holmes last name is actually Mayweather. HA!
Thursday Sep 3, 2009 03:14:21 AM
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RG:
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STFU, fatboy. You don't how I'm cut! Holla!
Thursday Sep 3, 2009 06:00:18 AM
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Radam G, most humble PacManite:
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Robot clown, dr3r42, you don't jack about me. I'm not the general public and a bum like you. I got access to things that you will never see. Serve your country and STFU. GET outta my grill. No more responses to you, freak! You are seeking attention. Get V. Holla!
Thursday Sep 3, 2009 06:04:07 AM
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Radam G:
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*you don't know jack....
Thursday Sep 3, 2009 06:05:46 AM
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straight jab:
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Frank. hate to say this but I'm with the goat on this. my brother if we want to rank "over achievers" or guys who were tough, or got the most out of their ability. then by all means lets Give Rocky all the props. but this forum, especially your articles are spent meticulously disecting the pure facts of the sport. determining great from merely good. Rocky was great at always being in shape? great at being tough? great at truly liking to fight and being relaxed before a fight? ask this? If he had gone out and crushed an old Joe Louis. or an old Archie Moore like younf lions to to older fighters then maybe we could consider how he would have fared aginst younger versions or other similarly talented fighters. but the reality is they gave him life and death. knocking him down, hurting him, holding more than their own with him for most of the night. it is impossible for me to imagine the prime Joe Louis having issue 1 with Marciano. simply put he was a higher level of fighter period. you mention Liston, and Foreman. God they would have gone thru Marciano like a knife thru butter. honestly what in Gods name would Marciano and his 68" reach coming forward in his crouch brought to the table against foreman. you say Joe Frazier would have been 6-5 either way. Joe Frazier would have knocked the Archie Moore that Rocky fought out in 4 rounds and certainly not been hurt himself. Joe would have done the same to the 37 yr old louis or the 38 yr. old walcott. botoom line is Rocky get admission to the greatest fighters ever club because he has that 0 on his record. If rocky had lost even a fight 1 was 49-1 would he be considered up with Ali, Louis, Foreman etc... no way. Louis, ali, Foreman, liston, Frazier, Tyson, Holyfield, Holmes, lewis etc. all them have losses. no great heart! great guy. better than avg heavyweight no more!
Thursday Sep 3, 2009 09:21:12 AM
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Alokwe:
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The truth is most fighters at some point or the other ducked fighters--even in some cases fighters they'd already beaten! Ali ducked a rematch with Foreman with every trick in the book and out of it too. This is a fact but it's been glossed over over the years as Ali's life and career has been deified........Holmes did duck a number of contenders towards the end of his reign also. Dudes like Dokes, Page, Tubbs and Thomas were avoided completely and shamelessly. That's boxing guys. Ali was criticised a lot for his choice of opponents post Foreman (and that include facing Frazier for the third time) but these days all that is forgotten. That's boxing guys!
Thursday Sep 3, 2009 11:58:09 AM
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Matthew:
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Good article by Frank. I think the point he was trying to get across was that Marciano got the most out his physical talent, and I believe that Marciano did that. Rocky is the only heavyweight champion to ever retire undefeated, and he deserves credit for that. However, he did not face a young lion during his title reign, and he went life-and-death with past-their-primes Walcott and Charles (not to mention nearly being knocked out by Moore, who was at his best at light heavy). Say what you want to about the level of competition during Holmes' reign, but he did clean out the division and make 20 defenses, many of which were against younger fighters. Marciano's tendency to bust up would spell doom against the top all-time heavyweights, and that's partly why I put him below Ali, Louis, Holmes, Foreman, and Liston. Definitely top ten, in my opinion.
Thursday Sep 3, 2009 03:20:57 PM
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AFN@Bobby C:
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Bobby, has this place gone mad while I was at home? Since when did Radam use STFU so regularly? As to the article, Rocky was the best of his time, as was Larry. You can't ask more of a fighter than that. They can't time travel. The Klits are in that position now. To compare fighters from different eras, we either have to make the weight/height differences void (sort of a P4P Heavyweight in this case), or accept the task as pointless. Matthew you puctuated these comments with a simple, to the point, clear anaysis. Spot on mate. Radam (if indeed was he) and the Doc, you both lost the plot, which is a shame, as you are undoubtedly two of the best informed guys here. TOONOY
Thursday Sep 3, 2009 09:22:33 PM
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Radam G, a most Humble Pacmanite @AFN:
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The only reason I've been spoutin' and spewin' more STFU's is because the universe has gone mad! There are posers, posturers, and impersonators everywhere my brother AFN. Fraudulent. It's around. The world's gone mad. I'm prospering in a bad economy, makin' jack, flying the world, and spendin' jack. I won't name names but it's never been this wild. Peops are wildin' in the U! Lots of jealousy and hatred from sycophants and sociopaths who perpetrate their fraud. I'm ok with it though. They know not the error of their ways. It's about staying humble and dissin' their hate with love, compassion, and empathy. Holla!
Friday Sep 4, 2009 01:17:34 PM
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Updated P4P from Domenic:
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(1) FightFanWest (2) Hakim (3) Big Daddy (4) Anony (5) T. Robert Rader (6) Arturo (7) Frank (8) Domenic (9) Big Al (10) Jerry.
Friday Sep 4, 2009 01:19:43 PM
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Radam G, a most humble PacManite being real not da clone:
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Hum! I see the Radam clone is in deep action and mischief. The Universe has always had whacked jobs, just as life. But their wilding being everywhere, he is right. And I do have sympathy and pity for the good people who are paining and draining during this "bad economy." But I must be true! I have yet to feel it. And I ain't hating myself for being ignorant to economy suffering and heartbreak. Mental weakness is probably what make a lot of people fall short of that ivory tower. I know who I am and whose I am. Holla!
Friday Sep 4, 2009 04:07:21 PM
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Isaiah:
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I tell you all who's really overrated which a few just can't seem to understand, Sonny Liston. I mean c-mon! 17 months as champ and beating and older Floyd Patterson does not an all time great make.
Friday Sep 4, 2009 09:48:57 PM
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dr3r42:
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Older Floyd Patterson ? Floyd Patterson was 27 years old when Liston destroyed him. Then he was 28 when he destroyed him a second time. Floyd was in his prime, not shot. In fact he was a contender throughout the 1960's and should have won the title against Jimmy Ellis in 1968. 17 month title reign ? How can you penalize a guy for losing to Ali ? Trust me, Joe Louis wouldn't have held the title that long had Ali been around during his era. And I could say the same thing for a lot of great champions. that criticism makes no sense. Liston should have won the title in 1959, but Cus D'Amato knew that Liston would destroy Patterson, so he avoided Liston like the plague. That's why Liston only had a 17 month reign- Patterson wouldn't fight him, and Ali was around.
Saturday Sep 5, 2009 10:39:49 AM
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dr3r42:
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Actually, Liston probably would have won the title in the late 1960's. Dundee wouldn't put Ellis in with him, and Yank Durham wouldn't put Frazier in with him either (I'd probably take the young Frazier by an eyelash over the old Liston, but I'd be a nervous early in that fight). They feared him in the late 1950's, and in the late 1960's
Saturday Sep 5, 2009 10:45:12 AM
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pimpjuice:
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I appreciate the time you took to write this, but some of what you wrote is a total joke. You think Marciano could have competed with Frazier, Shavers, Norton, Lyle, Williams? Marciano couldn't even have competed with Jimmy Young, Leon Spinks, Jerry Cooney, Trever Berbick, or any decent fighter over 200 lbs. Just not physically possible. Marciano was great for his size, but he was not a real heavyweight, and would not have been able to survive as a heavyweight in any era past 1960.
Wednesday Sep 23, 2009 12:12:21 PM
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NYJ:
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@pimpjuice, Marciano beat Carmine Vingo (6'4", 220) so bad the left side of his body was paralyzed . Also, fighters such as Jack Johnson, Ali, Frazier, Louis, Holyfield etc. have all fought and won at under 200 lbs; it's silly to think Rocky could not have successfully bulked up as well. Height-wise he was about the same size as Tyson but his style was developed specifically to minimize size differentials. Frazier himself ranked Rocky #2 all time (ahead of Ali, just below Louis). For whatever reason people just seem to want to discount Rocky without really knowing what they're talking about. Historians, reporters and the boxers who who watched and faced him consistently rank Marciano as one of the greats. But hey, I'm sure you know better.
Wednesday Nov 11, 2009 02:00:24 PM
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Angie And Goody...23 Years Later
Twenty three years later after they seconded Marvin Hagler and Ray Leonard in Las Vegas, Goody Petronelli and Angelo Dundee crossed paths again. This time, it was at Foxwoods. Photo/friend of TSS "The Iceman" John Scully reports there were only pleasantries exchanged. Goody didn't debate the split decision victory enjoyed by Leonard, which to this day Hagler disputes.
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