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| Ortiz spoke from the heart after his shocking loss. Can he come back? Will he want to even try? Weigh in, TSS U! |
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He Quit In A Sport That Doesn't Allow It
By Ron Borges
Let’s get the worst part over with first. He quit.
No matter how Victor Ortiz tries to recreate it as time passes or how his apologists try to spin it in the days and weeks ahead, that’s what happened Saturday night at the Staples Center.
He quit.
The doctor didn’t stop the fight. Neither did referee Raul Caiz, Sr. Ortiz stopped it when he fell down for the second time from, frankly, a less than thunderous body shot, got up and turned his back on Caiz and walked away, pointing at his eye, although it was unclear whether it was at the badly sliced right one or the left that had suddenly developed a huge contusion under it.
Everything after that – the calling over of the doctor, the wiping of the eye, the grim shaking of heads from side to side - was just a formality. An act, really. Face saving for a kid promoted by the most powerful company in the sport, Oscar De La Hoya’s Golden Boy Promotions.
Ortiz had already declared he was not willing to fulfill the contract all fighters accept when they decide to pursue boxing as an occupation. He wasn’t willing to go out on his shield.
He made a wise choice if he was in any profession but prize fighting. It is what separates real fighters from those guys in MMA who flail away with their elbows when they get a guy down but are allowed to quit without recrimination by using a more sanitized phrase when they can’t take it any more. In MMA they say he tapped out. Tap out in boxing and they say you quit…which is what happened Saturday night.
Victor Ortiz tapped out in a sport that doesn’t allow it. He made a split-second decision he will have to live with for a long time. How long? Ask Roberto Duran. He may be the greatest lightweight of all-time yet you mention his name and it doesn’t take long before the words “No mas’’ come up because that’s what he said when he quit against Sugar Ray Leonard nearly 29 years ago.
For the first time in his professional career, Ortiz was in with live fire. He was in with 25-year-old Marcos Maidana, who had just lost a disputed decision to WBA junior welterweight champion Andriy Kotelnik in his last fight. In Maidana’s mind he was still undefeated and not even Ortiz knocking him down three times could dissuade him from the decision he made when he arrived at the Staples Center – he would win or die trying.
That is a stark statement but it is the sad fact of what boxing, at its most elemental, is about. It is what made stars out of guys like Arturo Gatti, Micky Ward, Joe Frazier, Marvin Hagler, Ray Robinson, Carmen Basilio and thousands of others. It isn’t fair to ask such a price from a man but it’s what boxing is about.
You fight until you cannot go on or until someone other than yourself decides he’s seen enough. You have but one choice. To fight on. Victor Ortiz made a different choice.
“I’m young but I don’t think I deserve to be beat up like this,’’ Ortiz said in the ring after the fight with his usual frank honesty. “I have a lot of thinking to do.’’
Yes he does, which is where the humanity of it all comes in. As Ortiz sat in his corner between the fifth and what would prove to be the sixth and final round he was bleeding from one eye, had been knocked down once and, worse, had begun to realize he was in with a guy who would never make the choice he was considering.
As he sat there, clearly unfocused, his mind somewhere other than the Staples Center, his trainer, Danny Garcia, barked at him from outside the ropes. He said he would stop the fight if Ortiz didn’t start doing more. Fact is the fight was already over.
Yet when you consider the life young Ortiz has lived who could blame him? After it was over my wife, a compassionate and reasonable person, said, “Maybe he’s just tired of being beaten. Maybe he just decided he didn’t want to put up with it any more.’’
Maybe he didn’t and who could criticize him for feeling that way? The sad fact is Victor Ortiz has been beaten on since he was a little boy in Kansas. Beaten by his father, psychologically abused by his mother, abandoned by both of them by the time he was 12. Beaten down, as he has said, until he felt like a dog.
The two people who were supposed to protect him from the world left him adrift in it. A society that is supposed to look out for waifs in such sad circumstances took three years to figure out he was a living with his sister and brother alone in a trailer that had no electricity, scrambling to get by while trying to do the right thing in the ring and in high school. You try that and see how many more beatings you want to take if you think you don’t have to.
Long before Victor Ortiz ran into Marcos Maidana he’d been beaten up plenty. Just not yet in a boxing ring. That was always the one safe place for him.
There he shined, 141-20 as an amateur, 24-1-1 as a pro with the one loss a disqualification for hitting on the break in a fight he was winning easily. In that place, with all its inherent dangers, he was in control. And then one night he wasn’t and it all came crashing down on him. All the beatings and all the doubts that all the beatings left him with, had no place to go.
He had been protected by a powerful promoter and managed by experienced men from California and New York who knew how to move a young man into the position he found himself in last Saturday night – into a fight he was really ill-prepared for - without having him really tested.
He had beaten some decent names – former world champion Carlos Maussa, rugged journeyman Emmanuel Clottey, Mike Arnaoutis – but every one of them was less than he appeared by the time Ortiz got to him. That’s how it’s done these days in boxing. Maybe it’s how it was always done.
Maussa had lost three of his last five, been stopped by Miguel Cotto and Ricky Hatton and was on the way out. Clottey, a journeyman even at the best of times, was 33 and has lost three straight, Ortiz being the middle fight in his decline. Arnaoutis was one of those guys with a good record – 21-2-2 – but the only number that meant anything was the two losses. He’d lost to everyone he’d faced who was going anywhere in boxing. Ortiz was by then just a guy you fight for money.
Maidana (26-1, 25 KO) was different. He was young and stubborn in the way a fighter is when he thinks he’s still championship material. He got dropped in the first round by Ortiz but got up and did the same to him. Although he would go down twice more in the second, both times he got up again and threw punches, especially right hands, with bad intentions.
As the rounds wore on, Ortiz wore down. He was winning on the scorecards but losing in his mind. Not even the boxing ring was a safe haven for him any more. It was becoming just another place to take a beating and, frankly, this time he knew a way to stop it.
He quit.
Frankly, can you really blame him?
So where does Victor Ortiz go from here? As he said, he has a lot of thinking to do. Sometimes this can happen to a young fighter and he becomes stronger from it. He made a choice he probably regrets and can only redeem himself by not repeating it when the punches are coming at him hard again and the doubts put inside him by a world that didn’t care about him are whispering that it’s all right to lay down because, well, you never were much of anything any way.
Or there is the other possibility. Maybe he woke up Sunday morning, his face battered and bruised in an all too familiar way, and didn’t regret the decision he made. If that’s the case, he’s a civilian now and would be best to remember it when all the people who thought they were going to make money from his sweat and his blood try to convince him he didn’t do what he knows deep inside he did.
He quit in a sport that doesn’t allow it. Where he goes from here is up to him. Just like it’s always been.
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Anony @ haters:
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YOU PEOPLE ARE A BUNCH OF HATERS!!! LIKE I SAID BEFORE... how much do you ask from a 22 years old kid who is practically starting his career?? To go out there and die or get into a coma just because he should satisfy all of you blood hunters who have never laced gloves in you lives??? Man, I'm getting p*ssed about this. I rather see Víctor Ortíz give us 10 years of boxing like he did in this fight than rather say... "Oh remember that kid Víctor Ortíz? he had cojones and big heart but his career was cut short". You all should be ashamed of yourselves. This guy gave us a BIG FIGHT that had me up and cheering for as long as it lasted. And he did showed big time heart but there was a moment when he was outfocused and did was his instinct told him too... survive because the best come later. I'll bet on it.
Monday Jun 29, 2009 08:21:07 AM
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DJ:
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One of the greatest lines in boxing was said by Mike Tyson. He said something to the sort of he already won, he should have been dead by now. Maybe that is Ortiz's thinking considering his past. Maybe he's ok with where his life is headed and boxing was just a vehicle to get his head above water.
Monday Jun 29, 2009 08:40:03 AM
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jake zamoras:
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he'll be back with vengeance...that's for sure. i knew him since he was a kid...he's no quitter as this writer would like to portray him here. it's just that he knows he's in a no win situation that's why he decided to give himself another day to live.
Monday Jun 29, 2009 08:54:34 AM
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Frank Z:
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i didn't see any hate in this article, just a summary of what is expected of superstars in the hurt business, the fact that most people aren't cut for it, and the fact that there's no shame in that. my only issue with this article is that they put arturo gatti and mickey ward into the same sentence as carmen basilio, joe frazier, hagler, and sugar ray robinson. there's a difference between having heart on top of an excellent skillset/work ethic and just having heart. not to belittle their courage but gatti and ward were just a baby step above unskilled brawlers, just happened to have the cajones to take a lotta punches to the face.
Monday Jun 29, 2009 09:53:54 AM
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Anonymous user:
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GBP's fault, they're rookies at bringing up fighters. Not even close to the Bobfather at Top Rank. They blew him up (like DLH on FNFs), he believed it, and the world came crashing down against the hard punching Maidana. What a performance from Maidana though, I thought he was done after the knockdown that had him shaking his head, but came back strong and pounced on his opportunity as soon as the bell rang at the start of the 6th. Fun fun fight. As for Ortiz, just hoping he is at the least the next Vargas, and not the next Panchito Bojado.
Monday Jun 29, 2009 09:55:23 AM
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Radam G, a humble PacManite returning to da good ole USA:
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Age excuse from the above reader is amazing. Boxing is a young-men sports. The youngest winner of a world title was 17.years old -- Wilfred Benetiz. The median-age for Latino and Asian fighters under 140lbs is 19 years old. For Americans with extended amateur career is 21-23. Nobody is a hater of Ortiz. The kid had an extensive amateur career, and has been moved at the right pace as a pro. He is just what the old timers call "chicken $hit." Dude needs to quit reaching into his childhood and throwing stones at his father. There are umpteen former champions and present ones that were abandoned by their fathers or had rough, difficult times as kids. And it has not stopped these pugilists from using the hurt bitnezz opportunity to make a better life for themselves and their children. Ortiz needs to talk to a shrink. Ortiz is trapped in a deep $hit hole of nothingness. The kid needs to push that miserable childhood excuse out of his mind. It is MAN TIME! He is no longer a little abandoned boy. He is a MAN and people are trying to get him paid that way. The WORD to his promoter Oscar: Get the kid mental help and mend the problems with his father. He never walked in his father's shoe, and doesn't know what the father or the mother were going through when Ortiz was a child. Moses was sent down the Red Sea that he later split. Abandoning is not always a bad thing. MAN UP, Ortiz! Split that sea. Nice piece, Superfightwriter Ron B. Holla!
Monday Jun 29, 2009 09:55:55 AM
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rudy:
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GBP's fault, they're rookies at bringing up fighters. Not even close to the Bobfather at Top Rank. They blew him up (like DLH on FNFs), he believed it, and the world came crashing down against the hard punching Maidana. What a performance from Maidana though, I thought he was done after the knockdown that had him shaking his head, but came back strong and pounced on his opportunity as soon as the bell rang at the start of the 6th. Fun fun fight. As for Ortiz, just hoping he is at the least the next Vargas, and not the next Panchito Bojado.
Monday Jun 29, 2009 09:57:33 AM
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ali @ annony:
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You go out on your shield that's the way its is. I know is sounds crude but that's boxing you got to be ready to die in that ring if you ask any great fighter he will tell you that. You can't say cause B-hop is 45 its O.K for him to quit in the ring cause he's old. I always say before you lable a fighter the next big thing see what kind of heart he has cause anybody can be good when thing are going great but what happens when $hit goes bad how do you respond. In boxing quiting is not a option that's what ref your corner and the doctor is there for.
Monday Jun 29, 2009 10:03:52 AM
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Bobby Allan:
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Ortiz broke boxing's Hippocratic Oath. A fighter should go out on his shield or be carried out on a stretcher. I am so sick of fighter's quitting on their stool and trainers stopping fights needlessly (Buddy McGirt, for one). Go watch Tua - Ruiz, Tua - Moorer, Tua - Montana, Lewis - Rahman 2, Lewis - Tyson, Tyson - Marvis Frazier, Foreman - Frazier 1, Foreman - Cooney, Cooney - Norton, Hagler - Hearns, Hearns - Duran, and many others. These guys earned their money and were put to sleep. A disgrace.
Monday Jun 29, 2009 10:05:13 AM
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emer:
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He Quit Like His Daddy Oscar
Monday Jun 29, 2009 10:48:14 AM
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the good doctor:
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Maybe its just me but there were a couple things Ortiz lacked. He lacked formidable defense as well as a decent jab. I am not so sold on this guy now.
Monday Jun 29, 2009 11:08:37 AM
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#1 Pacfan "KO's Cotto in 7":
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I think he will come back fully aware that you win or you die trying. That's every great boxer's mentality in this sport is if you want it more than me then you better knock me out. Better now he struggles than later because he will learn from this mistake. Look at Cotto with his first loss, he knew what he had to do when he was unable to hurt his opponent. Boxing usually becomes a seesaw battle and you have to make sure you end up on the top.
Monday Jun 29, 2009 11:13:51 AM
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ultimoshogun:
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What a great fight! I finally got to watch it after a busy weekend I'm definitely looking forward to seeing Maidana again. As for Ortiz, it is said that a fighter learns more from a loss than a win so hopefully he regroups and reloads and bounces back from this loss cuz I'm looking forward to see him fight again too.
Monday Jun 29, 2009 11:31:22 AM
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GOAT:
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Once you quite, it's hard to come back from that (See Frietes). The next fighter Ortiz fights will jump on him from the beginning to try to make him quit. I never seen a fighter quit in a fight in which he is winning and already has three knockdowns! Damm, at least he knew he could hurt him, he's DONE as a serious fighter.
Monday Jun 29, 2009 12:04:51 PM
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trouble man/Pete E:
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I did not get to see the match but glancing thru the general consensus I agree with the pack. Lotsa boxers have times like these -I totally agree with DJ's assessment. Donald Curry? Bobby Czyz?
Monday Jun 29, 2009 12:52:02 PM
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Musang:
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ODLH quit.
Monday Jun 29, 2009 12:56:55 PM
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brownsugar:
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I'm reminded of Foreman vs Frazier (they aired a show about Forman last night on ESPN Classics),...watching big George ,... windup his punches all the way to Alaska and then launching them like missles full force against a groggy Frazier,.. made you wonder how much punishment a man could take,... the well conditioned Frazier got up all five times to beat the count,. and actually staggered towards Foreman after getting up the 5th time as if he fully expected the fight to continue,... luckily he was saved by the ref and his corner,.. Frazier had the experience to believe in himself no matter what,.. and Foreman knew what would happen in the late rounds of he hadn't gotten Frazier out of there early,.. Hagler got hit by "John theBeast Mugabi" so hard that he had huge knots,.. high on his forehead,.. instead of slugging with Mugabi in a fit of rage/embarassment/ or pride,.. Hagler boxed very carefully until he was able to make a successful move against Mugabi in the latter rounds,.. he went on to destroy Mugabi,.. courage and heart aren't necessarily innate qualities in a fighter,. . more often courage is a learned behavior,.. that doesn't preclude the absense of fear,.. Courage is obtained by the choices one makes dispite apparently insurmountable, or a potentially dangerous situations,.. ... I believe Ortiz,.. with his desire to prove himself to his deadbeat parents as well as GoldenBoy,..and the fans,... found himself in a position that he'd never been in before and didn't have the experience or knowlege to make a better choice,.. but now that he's been thru it,.. he's gained a powerful learning experience,.. experience he can now use to influence the choices he makes in future fights.....maybe now he can put the childhood memories in the past behind,.. because he'll need complete focus to compete with do-or-die bangers like Maidana, it doesnt get any easier at the top.
Monday Jun 29, 2009 01:21:42 PM
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Anony:
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OH WELL.. you guys think very different from me. I believe boxing is and should be a sport first. That's the difference I see between boxing and MMA (or UFC). over there you got a bunch of fit guys doing what they call "mixed arts" but at the end it's all about to who throws first and who throws "to kill" first. Boxing is really an art. In this case Ortíz proved enough to gain my interest as a fan so I don't want him to be damaged forever just to prove who is more macho (or stupidly brave). I like to think of boxers as a brother or a son. Don't you will like to see your son come back healthy from every fight and develop a full career??? Will you help pay his bills if he gets seriously hurt?????? I wish Ortíz comes back and shut everybody up. He has a fan in me after what I call a GREAT FIGHT and a GREAT SHOW.
Monday Jun 29, 2009 01:35:36 PM
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Peter Egley:
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Oh yeah I love those Ringside retros! All that wonderful footage! Talk about someone coming back from a brutal defeat, another fave of mine Kenny Norton, oh gosh, he could not deal apparently with big George at all and got pummeled worse (?) than Frazier. 1970s are bada$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!! Ali knew he was gonna kick Foreman's butt!
Monday Jun 29, 2009 01:48:16 PM
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donputo69 at the beach:
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guys...lets be honest...he did quit...and this sports is all about heart, and to survive...you either get ktfo or you will be a quitter just like ortiz...i rather die in that ring instead of going out like a toto...thats just me...holla back!!!
Monday Jun 29, 2009 01:50:03 PM
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the good doctor:
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Maybe its just me but there were a couple things Ortiz lacked. He lacked formidable defense as well as a decent jab. I am not so sold on this guy now.
Monday Jun 29, 2009 02:04:54 PM
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juan.montelongo@autopkg.com:
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I haven't had the chance to see the fight, but I have read several pieces on it...It takes a special man to lace them on and step into a ring to either hurt or be hurt. Its always been my opinion that the greatest fighters (not necessarily the most commercially successful) are probably born with that never give up until I'm completely done attitude, it can be nurtured over time, but you either have it or you don't. When adversity hits, and it will,this instinct will allow you to reach inside for additional strength and determination (something like runners hitting the wall)this cannot be developed or acquired. Ali, Louis, Gatti, Corrales had it....Marquez and Pacquiao have it. De La Hoya, for all the great things he did as a boxer never had it, Tyson didn't have It, Cotto doesn't have it, and as much as I hate to admit it because I loved to watch him fight, Chavez didn't have it. Its the ONE thing, in my opinion, that that separates the really, really good boxers from the great ones. Ortiz is a very good boxer and can probably turn himself into a really, really good one if he decides to stick to the hurt biz and will make a lot of $ and fame in the process, but he will never be a great one, and that's OK, there is no shame to calling it a day when you don't have it in you....99.9 of us don't have it either. That's why we're not all fighters and we can sit here and judge these courageous men from the comfort of our computers.
Monday Jun 29, 2009 02:13:55 PM
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Fe'Roz :
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FAST POST. I'm still at work but when I saw the headline I had to throw down a few words. Simply put, the fact is he did quit...........and he, the fans, his future opponents and the PRESS.....will not let him forget it. This is the type of headline that will follow him around until he walks through fire.That may not be fair....but it's a fact.
Monday Jun 29, 2009 02:40:16 PM
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The Loveman....:
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At least he didn't resort to illegal tactics like Cotto, Tyson, and Tito (low blows, attempted arm breaking, biting ears, juicing, loaded gloves, etc).
Monday Jun 29, 2009 03:00:44 PM
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Da Unknown Comic:
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He had enough. He was gassed (inside sources said he had a weight issue). He was already busted up bad so he gave up to the better man (that night). A lot of so called GREATS could not take as well as they gave. Some of those names are mentioned above. I seem to remember a guy named Duran who quit too. Anybody wanna argue his credentials?
Monday Jun 29, 2009 03:09:52 PM
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Steve the hater @ Donputo:
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Well your boy Cotto quit on his knees like a lil b...cht and he has a lot more experience than Victor, maybe you should hate cotto too no? or only Mexican fighters? maybe you should be more kind to Mexican fighters i think,Holla...
Monday Jun 29, 2009 03:13:33 PM
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MisterLee:
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This is worse than cotto margarito. You can say cotto fought marg valiantly, and really collapsed due to exhaustion, and not quitting b/c he had enough. his corner officially stopped the fight, but cotto said he did not have legs, you do not have legs agst a pressure fight, you are a dead man. cotto got beat up real bad. ortiz was/is an almost great fight, with the tools to handle it all, power in both hands, speed, timing, some type of ruggedness, but he met someone more rugged, someone willing to take punishment in order to dish it, someone who could punch as hard as him. I mean, ortiz could have clinched, he could have taken a knee on the floor before he got up, he could have hit the guy in the B(*!( s, he could have cut his gloves, he could have danced, head butted, but he elected to quit. I mean i could see he was smarting from the left hook tot he body early, as if he was never quite hit with a killer rib crusher before (check out youtube's "Pacquiao's Pain", in which its' a commericial showing him getting hit in the body with the stick for a conditioning exercise), maybe he needs the conditioning stick that pacquiao uses. I heard he's been sparring with pacquiao. I also like how the announcers asked maidana about amir khan, he said he's not concern or impresed by amir khan. haha... maidana fought like a latin warrior man, never backing down, never stopped throwing, never gave up. If anything, modern day Latin fighters are a bit like spartans, never surrender, never retreat. I'm sorry, ortiz is a good guy, he seems very smart, he's got a lot going for him, but he's no longer my favorite fighter. The ones i have left: bhop, stinky wright (fight already!), penalosa, angulo , katsidis, raf marquez, andre ward, evil vic, joshua clottey, mosley. yep. it's sad to lose a hero/favorite fight, they'd have to a do a f'n lot to lose a hardcore fan, even mayweather has a better chance of securing me as a fan now than ortiz. sorry! that's how the hurt bitnss works! hang in for another min. , get ktfo or survive a few more rounds... that's how it works. as max says: " In boxing, more is expected of you if you want to be great..."
Monday Jun 29, 2009 03:32:53 PM
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ultimoshogun:
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I just looked up the post fight interview with Ortiz. The comment that caught my attention was when he said when he was hurt he figured he'd stop while he's ahead so he can speak well when he's older. Was he implying that he has no problem quitting whenever he feels like he's taking too much damage? Not the right attitude if you wanna be among the elites in this sport. Like brownsugar said, the fights aren't gonna be any easier at the top. I hope he rebounds from this and comes back stronger but the comments he made during the interview make me question his desire. Like he said in his closing statement he has alot of thinking to do.
Monday Jun 29, 2009 03:47:17 PM
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Michael:
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It is easy to criticize Ortiz from an armchair when you aren't the one taking those ridiculous punches from Maidana. In just over one round, Ortiz went from having a clear face to a severe cut on one side and a swollen shut eye one the other side. There was no win for Ortiz at that point. He could stay in there and possibly die in the ring or just congratulate Maidana on having won the fight. He chose the latter of the two and the smarter choice. Before jumping to criticize Ortiz for such a move, lace up the gloves and step in there for six rounds with Maidana first. If you're unwilling to do so, then don't be so judgmental.
Monday Jun 29, 2009 03:51:49 PM
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donputo69 @steve the faker:
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listen you dork...cotto never quit...his $tup!d @$$ uncle threw in the towel...did you see cotto waving his hands at the ref sayin "I QUIT"?...NO....did you see ortiz waving his hands saturday?...YES...so stfu....its not about me being mean to mexicans....and if i did...TOO BAD....BTW...taking a knee doesnt mean you quit...unless thats your rule...dork....let me brush my shoulders off....i have a hater thats jocking me....holla back!!!
Monday Jun 29, 2009 03:54:39 PM
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NYBoxingTrainer:
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One angle that hasn't been explored here is the fact that maidana was letting the harder, more punishing shots and Victor may have seen the "writing on the wall" that he would eventually be stopped, and his pride would not let him go out that way...so he quit rationalizing that if he did so he would at least go out as he chose....see Roberto Duran's "No mas" and Mike Tyson's biting off Holyfield's ear. Sometimes a fighter sees quiting over being knocked out as the lessor of the two evils. As a former boxer and current trainer..I can not fully understand that mentality...but I do know it exists.
Monday Jun 29, 2009 03:57:40 PM
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#1 Pacfan "KO's Cotto in 7":
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@GOAT, you can't compare Ortiz with Freitas who was much older and reaching the end of his career. All this criticism is either going to break him or make him. He is going to come back looking to make statement to his opponent. You think I'm the same fighter? Okay, I'll step back and BOOM gotya. Make him miss and catch him out of position. What he should have done with Maidana was throw an upper while he threw that overhand right with his head down. Ortiz will come back, I have faith in this guy.
Monday Jun 29, 2009 03:57:58 PM
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brownsugar:
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Peter Edgley,.. George said Norton made him angry by trying to bang with him... but like you said it's amazing watching those old films,.. Foreman wasn't no Ray Robinson,.. but he had amazingly fast feet and a good jab for someone only remembered as a banger....
Monday Jun 29, 2009 04:10:15 PM
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Ray:
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I watched the fight, it was exciting. However, the result reminded me of what happened to one of my favourite fighter quite a few years ago 'Vince Martinez' .
Vince was a version of a 'Golden Boy'. He had power in both hands, could move,had a good reccord, and was (over) protected . When he got his big chance at a vacant title, Virgil Atkins demolished him.
It must be a rude awakening for the Vince Martinez(s) and Victor Ortiz(s) in the world of 'The Sweet Science' ; when, certainly unexpectantly, they come face to face with the unbeatable foe, and haven`t got a clue how to deal with it.
Vince Martinez was never much after the Atkins fight, and unless Victor Ortiz is an exceptionally mentally strong and focused individual, we have just seen him become a foot note in boxing.
Monday Jun 29, 2009 04:23:30 PM
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ali @ Mister Lee:
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You forgot about Mayweather as one of your favorite LOL .... You made alot of good points Cotto damn sho did'nt quit I don't know what the hell Steve the hater was talking about. Also you made good points about Ortiz like you said he could have held, took a knee hit him low any thing but quit but that's were his corner could have help they should have told him that. He needs to change his corner get some one in there that can teach him about the things you can do when you get hurt and tell him it O.K to box some but it never O.K TO QUIT!
Monday Jun 29, 2009 04:48:41 PM
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donputo69 drinking pina colada:
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good point ali...COTTO NEVER QUIT...only the cotto haters would say some dumb_____....you can fill in the rest...but yeah...ortiz should of took a knee, low blow, fake an injury....even heck....A BODY SLAM....you like that one misterlee huh?....lol....thats why us puerto rican boxers would do....hey....ITS ONLY CHEATING IF YOU GET CAUGHT....lol....yo lee....you have anculo as your favorite?....lol....oooops....my bad...angulo.....lol....didnt my boy cintron gave him a can of whoop ass?....my favs are...COTTO, JUANMA, PACQUIAO, PAVLIK, COLLAZO, AND MY BOY FROM THE HOOD....ZAB "SUPER JUDAH"...yep...i had to put him on my list....he's from brooklyn...holla back!!!
Monday Jun 29, 2009 05:00:54 PM
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MisterLee:
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Yeah I heard Clottey is working on his wrestling techniques for the cotto rematch. Yeah donputo, i like that, from an outside perspective and if i weren't a clottey fan, and a critic, i'd say it was a pretty damn smart move, so he woulnd't have ended up like ortiz. it's better to be a cheater or a "dirty fighter" ("the day i stop being a dirty fighter is the day i quit boxing" ~ Joel Casmayor loosely quoted) than a quitter. you puerto ricans crack me up! you know i wish i could go in a time machine. a year ago when all these dang racists and haters were riding on Marg's jock strap and saying ALL mexican fighters are better than ALL PR fighters, I wish i had known Juanma at the time, and about the beating he gave to Ponce de Leon to use as an example, or cotto vs. gomez (does that even count when you beat up a small child?). i forgot to include collazo in my faves, he's got heart an skill. you like malignaggi too? he from brooklyn. one thing he never short on is heart and guts. i actually finally saw the lovemore ndou fight, one of the most beautiful displays of boxing i ever seen from malignaggi or anyone, turning, slipping, judging distance, ring generalship, and a late round knockdown, malignaggi was truly magic. what you think between him and juan diaz? Pc out! :)
Monday Jun 29, 2009 05:26:33 PM
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donputo69 drinking pina colada:
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naaaaaaa mister lee....paulie is a bum....i cant put him on my tops...he hasnt done_____. you fill in the blank....plus he tried to diss my boy cotto before the fought....and you seen what cotto did to him...lol...say no more....WARD IS A BUM....holla back!!!
Monday Jun 29, 2009 05:54:47 PM
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donputo69 drinking pina colada:
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i hope diaz wins by KO....holla back!!!
Monday Jun 29, 2009 05:58:05 PM
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mrx:
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im with you monkey boy i hope diaz knocks that loud mouth malignaggi tfo
Monday Jun 29, 2009 06:15:55 PM
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donputo69:
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hey look everybody...is dmx...ruuuf ruuuf..where my dogz at...lmfao...you need attention dmx?...go rub scareweather toes....lol...holla back!!!
Monday Jun 29, 2009 06:21:30 PM
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mrx:
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man that mr lee talk too damn much hes talking about yeah i heard clotty zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz oh wat was that mr lee you love clotty? man clottys a bum come over here by team mayweather well crack this cotto for ya
Monday Jun 29, 2009 06:27:40 PM
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mrx:
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its woof woof the big dogg in the house hatters
Monday Jun 29, 2009 06:31:00 PM
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MisterLee:
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@ the Don, yeah man, Malignaggi is tough as nails, even if he ain't the top fighter, he never been knocked out, the hatton fight shouldn't be counted as the default was buddy mcdirt at the time. plus diaz ain't a power puncher, if cotto can't take out malig, how can diaz? so just curious, who you like in super middle? I think froch has underrated boxing ability tho he is slow and sometimse a sitting target. i haven't seen bute fight, i heard andrade is as tough as htey come, other belt holder Karoly somehting, then dirrell allan green miranda, abraham, bhop dawson and johnson are not far away as far as weight class goes. what ya think?
Monday Jun 29, 2009 06:43:20 PM
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mrx:
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i think anthony mundine will knock all their asses out ex rugby league you heard of it? best game in the world apart from boxing of corse dont bother asking the don he think everyone a bum exept cotto
Monday Jun 29, 2009 07:08:55 PM
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donputo69 @mr.lee:
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do we hear a dog barking?....never mind...is just a sad puppy looking for his mommy...lmfao....anyway....let me remind you....COTTO BROKE HIS RIGHT HAND THAT NIGHT WHEN HE FOUGHT PAULIE....and with one hand, you saw what he did to his face....trust me...cotto could of ko paulie....if he had not broken his right hand....holla back!!!
Monday Jun 29, 2009 07:11:13 PM
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donputo69 drinking a cold one:
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hey bmx?...i think you're a bum....better yet...i know you are...QUOTE THE DON...NEVER MORE....holla back!!!
Monday Jun 29, 2009 07:15:11 PM
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mrx:
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then what about don pooh hole 40 year old man is that cool wif you haha by the way its mrx capital M capital R get it
Monday Jun 29, 2009 07:23:47 PM
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mrx:
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looks like i win mr puto better put me up in that top spot but dont worry ill make you my personal jester haha
Monday Jun 29, 2009 07:36:11 PM
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donputo69 drinking a corona:
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oooooh...i get it...capital M for MORON...and capital R for RETARD...what happen to X?...but anyway..thats what i thought it stands for....lmfao...holla back!!!
Monday Jun 29, 2009 07:37:44 PM
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Vic:
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Boxing has had 146 deaths since 1990. The blood is on the hands of fans who crticize guys who don't "go out on the shield" but have never stepped in a ring themselves.
Monday Jun 29, 2009 07:56:52 PM
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MisterLee:
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@ the Don, i get it, cotto is a warrior, whooped up on paulie with one hand, cotto is right, his will is his biggest asset. But still paulie is a tough kid i gotta admit. I admit he did horrible in the hatton fight. you see froch taylor yet? That was one helluva good fight with a great ending. Taylor was ahead by as much as 4 pts or more on all the judge's score cards going into the 12 round. pc out! :)
Monday Jun 29, 2009 07:59:07 PM
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Steve the hater @ Donputo:
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Cotto did not want anymore of His Papi Margo he looked at his corner saying please stop this fight,just like Tito trinidad did nt want no mas from Hopkins, when you look at your corner and you have that look in your eyes like you are about to cry they have to stop the fight, one more thing all the boxers that you have on your list are bunch of loosers, when TSS welcome you back i said this guy must be an expert in boxing but now i think you are the biggest morron in TSS, the truth hurts sorry.Holla....
Monday Jun 29, 2009 08:14:16 PM
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Steve the hater @ Donputo:
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I pick Pacman over Cotto in 6, or less..........
Monday Jun 29, 2009 08:14:49 PM
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MisterLee standing up the don:
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How can anyone call cotto, juanma, and pacquiao a loser? Blasphemy! It's always easy for a hater to hate than stand up for their own opinions. Juanma beat my hero penalosa, that make him a good fighter. pc out!
Monday Jun 29, 2009 08:21:22 PM
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donputo69 @steve the faker:
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lmfao...so im a moron?....listen fool...i guess you be at home too much watching barney and friends....you are barney, and your girl scareweather is your friend...lol...so my favs are bum?....hhhhmmmm...lets see...cotto?...he only beat judah,mosley,and fought the man that your girl turned down 8million to fight in margacheato...and beat one of the best in clottey with 1 eye...yeah...he's a bum...pacquiao?...P4P KING...nuff said...juanma?...future P4P top 5....pavlik?...UNDISPUTED MIDDLEWEIGHT CHAMPION...nuff said...yeah....my tops are bums....whos your tops?...gomez?...lmfaooo....chavez jr.?....salitas?....lmfaoooo....oh..and BTW...when you get your name on the QUOTE OF NOTES, then talk to me....not only one time, but maybe lets say....about 10 times...ok dork....but for now, stop jocking me....you wont be the first and most definetlywont be the last one...holla back loser!!!
Monday Jun 29, 2009 08:46:19 PM
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AFN with Anony on this one and defending MMA:
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Anony man, you are not alone, I agree 100% with your earliest comment. Ortiz was class before this fight, and history will show him to be class after it. If many of these guys were as tough as they try to make out, they'd either be famous or dead- or both. And Ron B, you've lost me again with the lets all slag off MMA nonsense. They don't tap when they are getting the cr@p pounded out of them and the whole canvas is covered in blood (tho the ref may stop it). They tap when they are in choke holds that cut off the blood to the brain, or in arm or leg bars that they can't get out of, and the slightest extra pressure would result in splintered bones. But to a real man like you (or many of the above), you wouldn't quit until you had irrepairable brain damage or bones poking out through your severed flesh. Stupidity is no excuse for ignorance. TOONOY YA BAS
Monday Jun 29, 2009 09:26:36 PM
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Jose:
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Ortiz looked so hapy after the fight ,if you did not know it, you
may have thought he won the fight not lost it.
Monday Jun 29, 2009 09:31:44 PM
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Pete:
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Hes young. If he chooses to keep fighting, then he will have the opportunity to redeem himself like vasquez did when people called him a quitter. May GBP gave him to many silk pajamas, but the kid deserves a shot redemption. I'm no Vargas fan, but don't compare this kid to Vargas. Love him or hate him, Vargas never quit and was willing to go out on his shield.
Monday Jun 29, 2009 10:16:48 PM
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Steve the hater:
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Only Pacman and Juan Manuel not the rest,
Monday Jun 29, 2009 10:23:28 PM
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Bruno:
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Another fighter that has been crushed under the crossed eyes of GBP. How can they get all of there fighters beat all the time. Abner Mares is the only fighter that hasn’t been beat yet.
Victor should have stayed with Top Rank who made him, but Shelly Finkle & Arellano came into the picture and ruined him. Just like with Feroz, they threw him into the spot light to soon and with a big puncher to boot. But again GBP at work gets another prospect beat. I don’t understand why they keep calling them the most powerful promotional company out there. That’s a joke, they don’t know what they are doing, Erick Gomez was selling Fretoz Lays before he was hired by Oscar and Schaffer was a banker. No knowledge at this company and this is why they are what they are.
Guererro, Oscar & Ortiz all have quite under pressure, maybe they should be called
“NO MAS” Promotions.
Monday Jun 29, 2009 11:15:59 PM
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Anonymous user:
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This is for "AFN with Anony on this one and defending MMA" Many fighters have lost there lives in the ring, many still suffer many years after leaving the ring. But this is why Boxing has such loyal fans, & yes the man with the biggest sack will be remembered, MMA fighters do quite, ops sorry they tap out. Anyway you try and explain yourself they say no mas but this has been excepted by there fans. In Boxing "Knock me out" is a warriors mentality not "I will fight you until it gets tuff".
If this Maidana kid was an MMA fighter he would have Tapped after the 2nd knock down but he was a warrior and fought on. Ortiz said hell no I don't want to get hurt or leave on my back. He like you should stick with MMA at least nobody there will get mad when you quit ops again Tap out.
Monday Jun 29, 2009 11:22:28 PM
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Fe'Roz :
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The relationship to Cotto taking a knee (twice) after getting beat down by Margarito and Ortiz quitting raises a number of issues and questions. The first, asked by those who watched both fights at the time, was did the fighter quit. When you take a knee but don't get up I think it's fair to describe that as quitting. If the doctor asks you if you want to go on and you respond passively (waiving your hand),....that is by any standard quitting. Neither Cotto nor Ortiz complained one iota when the ref stopped their bouts....so it's fair to say that the one commonality is the neither fighter wanted to continue. The difference, however, is the response of their respective corners. For all the problems between Miquel and Evangelista, the latter stopped the fight......sparing his warrior any further unnecessary beating. The fight was lost. Ortiz's corner, after watching Victor getting get cut and later clocked by a hard right at the end of the 5th round, asked but got no response from their fighter in the corner between rounds. They, no Ortiz, should have stopped the fight....sparing further beating and indignity. Neither Cotto's nor Ortiz's corner had a Plan B. In fact, VO had already abandoned Plan A. They had nothing more to offer their fighter's ....except mercy and protection. Cotto got it. Ortiz did not. Both corners are at fault.
Monday Jun 29, 2009 11:45:52 PM
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Fe'Roz :
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One other thought regarding the promotional machine that hypes young athletes and politicians. The bio-documentary, once known as "up close and personal" will be the boom or the bane for all future boxing prospects. They are designed to give a face to nameless candidates in politics (ie. Barack's Audacity of Hope, Clinton, the Man from Hope) and athletes who would otherwise be numbers on the field. And it's a wildly successful tool. When it promoted Oscar at the 1992 Olympics, talking about fighting in honor and memory of his recently past mother, he became an instant star. The Golden Boy. When we heard about Miranda, many of us reacted to his dramatic childhood. But Miranda can't speak English so most of his paying audience said 'what a story....now lets''s just watch him bang'. Ortiz has a sad but great story to tell. He also has some great skills and a fantastic personality on screen. In this age of media saturation, GBP would have been foolish for not promoting the story. However, with information spreading virally at unprecedented speeds.....Ortiz' life became the story. In this case, it has backfired. He will be tagged with both his demons (now public) and his having quit in a high profile fight. I write this because we all know that many, if not most, fighters come from incredibly difficult backgrounds. The difference with the modern fighter....in this case Ortiz....is that we know their story.....before we know who they are in the one place that matters.....in the ring. pc
Tuesday Jun 30, 2009 12:05:17 AM
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Kevin:
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99% of you are armchair warriors and idiots. Go ahead and keep defending the idea that quitting isn't honorable, and ignore the slurred speech and mental trauma of your 'heroes'. Leon Spinks was the world champ, and now he can hardly talk straight. If that's your idea of heroism, well, then fine, whatever.
As for MMA, if you think that a fighter shouldn't tap to an armbar or a choke or a heel hook - heel hooks threaten irrepairable, career-ending ligament damage, by the way, in a way that even kneebars and arm - because that's 'quitting' and quitting is for wimps, you're delusional. The only ones who call MMA a sport for sissies because you can 'quit' without shaming your family legacy is anyone who has no idea of the raw potential for immediate and horrific harm that MMA rules present. If you idiots had your way, you'd demand broken arms and legs, and then demand that the injured fighter stand back up and be beaten unconscious with only three good limbs left to defend himself with. Because, after all, that's the only way to fight with honor, until you're unconscious.
Tuesday Jun 30, 2009 01:43:46 AM
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Anony:
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Ask Oscar Díaz what he thinks about this article... no disrespect to Borges... .... .... ....
Tuesday Jun 30, 2009 05:04:13 AM
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RED:
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The problem for Ortiz is that the stigma of quitting, which he did, is harder to shed than the agony of losing. I remember when Trinidad beat Vargas. It was an ugly loss for Fernando. Dropped 5 times and mercifully saved by the referee after taking what can only be described as a brutal beating. Yet, he actually received inmense kudos for his bravery. Hell, there were articles dedicated to his huge "heart" instead of his loss. A few weeks ago Miguel Cotto somehow found the strength to finish his fight with Joshua Clottey. A huge gash over his eye, blood flowing constantly and the guy kept going. Ortiz, well, he chose the chicken's out. Just like there's no crying in baseball there's no quitting in boxing. Quiters should not even apply.
Tuesday Jun 30, 2009 05:40:36 AM
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RED:
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The problem for Ortiz is that the stigma of quitting, which he did, is harder to shed than the agony of losing. I remember when Trinidad beat Vargas. It was an ugly loss for Fernando. Dropped 5 times and mercifully saved by the referee after taking what can only be described as a brutal beating. Yet, he actually received inmense kudos for his bravery. Hell, there were articles dedicated to his huge "heart" instead of his loss. A few weeks ago Miguel Cotto somehow found the strength to finish his fight with Joshua Clottey. A huge gash over his eye, blood flowing constantly and the guy kept going. Ortiz, well, he chose the chicken's out. Just like there's no crying in baseball there's no quitting in boxing. Quiters should not even apply.
Tuesday Jun 30, 2009 05:49:32 AM
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Keith:
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As someone who has been involved with MMA and Boxing, I can assure you that you know when you are beat. Getting brain damage, choked out, or an arm broken, all of which cause permanent damage isn't worth it just so you can get props from some loser who doesn't know how to fight and likes to write nasty articles. No matter how you slice it.
I love boxing fans who talk about MMA the same way non boxing fans talk about Boxing. It's cute and ignorant.
If you think MMA is just a couple guys "Flailing" good for you. Stick to the simple stuff and leave the fighting to us.
Tuesday Jun 30, 2009 09:23:19 AM
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Dougie:
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This is like a soccer writer, just randomly going off on football. Strange stuff, but not surprising.
I love boxing. But I'm ashamed to be associated with the insecurity and immaturity of these criticisms. Please, for the good of the sport, grow up.
Tuesday Jun 30, 2009 10:40:40 AM
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Matt:
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Wait a second, If i fighter is smart enough to realize he cant continue, then why should he go back out and feed himself to the wolves to satisfy someone elses blood lust. If the man pointed at his Eye then there was something wrong with it. If I cant see in a fight, I am not gonna continue. There is no point. I would rather take an L and still have a career to come back to and fight again, then risk permenant damage. Why are we even questioning him quitting. Thats not quitting thats making sure you can collect another paycheck. Being too proud is why Boxing has more deaths than anyother sport including MMA which for something that is allegedly so brutal not every state wants to legalize it has ZERO Fatal incidents in and sanctioned bout. ZERO. 1 thing most MMA organizations get right, is when a fighter is too proud to quit, the refs and doctors are trained to end it for him, and they never let it go on too long, I say kudos for Ortiz for knowing when enough was enough dispite the doctors and trained personnel not knowing.
Tuesday Jun 30, 2009 10:50:52 AM
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Matt:
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Furthermore I would like to add, what does the witer think about Oscar De La Hoya. He refused to answer the bell vs Pacquaio. He QUIT!!!!! No it doesnt Make him less of a man, He knew he needed those braincells to continue running his business of being a promoter. Are you saying Oscar's brain cells are more valueble that Mr. Ortiz's? I would hope not. I am just wondering why this arcticle comes out now when an up and comer quits, and not when one of the all time greats quits.
Tuesday Jun 30, 2009 11:00:16 AM
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andy from newcastle AFN:
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Anony, Kevin, Keith, Matt. It seems as if we are surrounded by a pack of (toothless) wolves, whose blood lust (though there is always more blood in MMA) is only matched by their inability to accept boxing as a sport. And anoymous user, I've been following this sweet science for well over 30 years, and MMA only for the past two, so your suggestion that I stick to a sport in its infancy that I am relatively new to, is laughable, as is your ignorance of its skills and rules. TOONOY YA BAS
Tuesday Jun 30, 2009 11:56:34 AM
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EM:
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Andy Newc, repping for pugilism!
Tuesday Jun 30, 2009 12:13:06 PM
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high_desert_hitmen@yahoo.com:
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Boxing 146 confirmed deaths since 1990 MMA 1. I Coach boxing wrestling & MMA, I have competed at the college level and above in all three sports I would rather have a young man LIVE to fight/compete another day EVERY time in all 3 sports. To diminish his effort only expose your ignorance to the dangers of combat sports or your complete lack of actual participaction in said sports. Furthermore clearly you have had no exposure to CCD (cumulative concussion disorder) which effects not only combat sports participants but soccer, football and many other contact sport athletes. In the Future please attempt to make an educated assessment of an athletes performace before you villify a young man in an attempt to relegate him to the trash heap of "quitters"
Thank you,
Coach McLeod
Tuesday Jun 30, 2009 12:47:41 PM
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MisterLee:
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Hm.... seems interesting... "Ortiz is not a quitter just b/c he quit." Does that sound like an oxymoron? Then yeah, ortiz quit, like a chump. You're swimming the 200 M, and you're half a pool length behind? You're getting a cramp, just quit! There are examples of why athletes like Rudy from Notre Dame, Arturo Gatti, Corrales, cotto have been pinned agst the ropes, or in rudy's case, not given a shot, but never did they say "forget this, that's enough." In boxing, it's about brawn and heart, you don't got it, then forget about it. You guys are talking about saving himself and doing the "smart thing." Is this what happened when Abraham fought about 8 rounds with a broken jaw agst Miranda and couldn't even close his mouth? Or ali in Norton 1 when his jaw was broken in the first few rounds and ended up finishing the fight, or lewis getting beat up by vitali when he was obviously out of shape and winning anyhow, or barrera with a crater in his head agst khan and still continued, or barrera who never quit agst pacquiao for 10 rounds. These are moments that define fighters, or marquez being dropped 3 times in round 1 agst pacquiao and fighting back for a draw (i know it's controversial, just stating the facts for now). Boxing requires not just athletes (like jermaine taylor), but warriors (pacquiao, marciano, froch etc.). If you're not willing to leave everything you have in the ring, you're not ready to be a prize fighter. But i guess who i am i say? According to the other "keyboard warriors", you have to be an expert and pro in the field to make an educated opinion, so you gotta be a pro NBA player to judge if Lebron James is a good player or not, or you gotta be a pro figure skater to judge Michelle Kwan, or you gotta be a Pro Boxing writer and BWAA writer to judge Ron Borges' article, oh wait! none of us are BWAA award winners, maybe none of us have the rights and skills distinguished to even comment on this great man's article! Maybe we should all just stick to the only thing we are qualified to judge: ourselves. Oh no! :) Too much truth in an article, i better run for the hills! :)
Tuesday Jun 30, 2009 01:56:36 PM
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B. Allan:
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I'll say it again, in boxing, you go out on your shield. Ortiz' purse should have been held. He should have fought until the end. Who knows, maybe he lands a haymaker and wins and this conversation isn't happening, and he's being lauded, not lambasted. Diego Corrales could have quit in the 1st Castillo fight, but didn't. And he won! Ortiz should have been going out like Morrison did against Mercer, Botha did against Lewis, and Hearns against Barkley in their 1st fight. Hold his purse. Period.
Tuesday Jun 30, 2009 03:02:37 PM
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mike m:
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Lot of good posts thought i suspect their maybe some GBP lackeys ("anony") who are trying to save face for their cash cow Ortiz. It is what it is and we all seen what happened with Ortiz. When you have grown up watching guys like Joe Frazier, Norton, Quarry, Bobby Chacon, Mancini, Qawi, Saad Muhammad, Galindez, Holyfield, Corrales, Ward, Gatti etc., real fighters, you know when you are getting the placebos. And there has definitely been a trend the last few years with fighters giving in to the moment, the circumstances, whatever, and essentially quitting. I definitely believe Ortiz deserves to show he learned from this but his team needs to understand that Ortiz did break a cardinal rule and most fighters who have done that do it again or are never the same. Is there anybody who thought that Freitas would not be broken again against Juan Diaz after he quit against Corrales? I am sure Diaz team knew that as well. Boxing is not just about skill it is about will.. And you need to have an iron will when it comes to the question of quitting in a fight. The pain from this decision may cause Ortiz to never do this again and fans will forgive but history is against him in this sport. Ortiz has also given his future elite opponents an edge in that they know mentally this guy can be broken before he is physically been beaten. Ortiz has good veterans around him in Mosley and De La Hoya and that should help him also and he has the talent to rebound from this.
Tuesday Jun 30, 2009 03:03:16 PM
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Fe'Roz @ mike m:
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Could not have been said better. When I read this on my phone a minute ago, I thought it was Editor Michael Woods chiming in and putting the punctuation mark on these great posts. This is after all, The Sweet Science.....of professional Boxing. Prize fighting with it's long and distinguished history. It is not college (all due respect Coach). It is not the Golden Gloves or Olympics. It is the hurt business....a business for a unique and special athlete that chooses to fight for the prestige and power to command potentially great amounts of money. It is not MMA. Anyone who followed THIS sport knows that greatness is when you reach down and find what you weren't even sure you had. It's the intangible that seperates fighters from champions. No one here wants to see a fighter injured permanently. I doubt any of us care much one way or the other if Victor Ortiz ultimately decides to continue a career in this business. If he doesn't, we wish him all the best. The fact remains, however, that someone else will. Someone who knows the price of admission...and the price of greatness.
Mike M is s spot on. Even if Ortiz made what he consideredthe right decision for himself at the time, as a professional boxer he will always have this over his head. That is a fact that he and his advisors already know. It is the fact that will motivate all future opponents.....elite today or hungry tomorrow. So no matter what he decides, he better be ready. Because his opponents now know something about him that he can never... ever ...show again.
Tuesday Jun 30, 2009 05:32:31 PM
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MisterLee:
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Ortiz back on the undercard! maybe he should fight collazo! that would be a solid scrap! :)
Tuesday Jun 30, 2009 05:45:27 PM
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ggippo:
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If there was no tapping out in MMA it would not be allowed on TV. It saves lives, this isn't Rome.
Tuesday Jun 30, 2009 09:54:41 PM
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brownsugar:
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Ortiz has already gone public by saying that the blasphemous words he spoke after the fight was just his youth and dissappointment talking,.. and he vows to gain redemption by winning a title and defending it honorably,.. Arum was quick to lash out saying,... "The Golden Boy stable has been completely cleaned out",.. and he alone has "ownership" of the best fighters in the business...with an extensive stable of winners like JuanMa,.. Pacman,.. and Gamboa,... Golden Boy responded by saying Arums' claims are the false propaganda of a leacherous bloodsucker vying for barganing power with HBO,.. But Arum is right to some extent,.. a decent number of Golden Boy's,.. golden boys have been knocked out of immediate title contention because so many have lost crossroads fights inpart due to the tough matchmaking practices of HBO ....(which HBO is praised for),..Golden Boy Productions has served notice that they plan to stick by Ortiz and pour whatever resources necessary into his development,.. making him bigger,.. stronger,. faster,.. ... better than before,..(like Lee Majors was made into the $$$6Million Dollar Man).. Oscar and company has forgiven his sin of having a loose tongue during his post fight interview with Max Kellerman,... whose huge EyEballs opened even wider at Ortiz's impromptu confessions and promises that Ortiz "WILL" be made into a Marquee SuperStar,.. ....Despite the fact that he quit,.. if guys like Wlad Klitscho,.. Amir Khan,.. and Kermit Cintron can come back after suffering devastating losses,.. then it can never be over for Victor Ortiz,.. the next time you see him,.. he'll be fighting behind an active jab,.. while tucking his chin,.. and biting his tongue before he blurps out "too-much-information" in any more interviews... he'll be back...
Wednesday Jul 1, 2009 10:26:31 AM
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Anony @ Mike M:
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I WISH GOLDEN BOY WAS PAYING ME FOR MAKING COMMENTS HERE... but no, it isn't the case Mr. Mike M. And responding to your comment... I don't know if you are a boxer, that would be very important background to understand how does it feels to be Ortíz, or Durán, or DLH, etc. In any case, your "psyche" is off if you keep thinking like that or induce people to think like you. BOXING IS A SPORT. I personally celebrate ATHLETES like Cotto who said - after Margacheato - "he was the better man TONIGHT" (please underline "tonight") BECAUSE HE KNOWS HE CAN GET ANOTHER CHANCE TO PROVE HIMSELF LATER. Does that makes you less of a man or a boxer? IT SHOULDN"T if you keep your athlete's point of view and understand that you are in the "hurt business" but you are also a performer and DEPENDING ON YOUR PERFORMANCE people will decide to watch you again or not. HEAR THIS... I bet you anything that most of you "macho type friends" will watch Ortíz next fight and it won't be because he gained notoriety now. IT WILL BE BECAUSE IT WAS AN EXCITING FIGHT AND HE LOOKED LIKE A GREAT BOXER UNTIL THAT FINAL ROUND... So you all can bark until his next fight but you know what really moves us INSIDE and that is A GOOD FIGHT and that was exactly what he gave us and it is what we crave for as fanS. So I know you won't miss the chance to watch Ortíz doing A GREAT SHOW again because in your subconscious you know this kid can deliver. Remember me when you find yourself in front of your TV in his next fight (remember he was winning the fight). You will go... "darn man, it is true, I'm here sitting thinking about Anony because this kid is exciting to watch". I surely prefer to watch him that Floyd Scareweather for sure. Floyd will never engage in a fight like Ortíz did and some people call him "a great fighter"??... yeah right.
Wednesday Jul 1, 2009 01:03:40 PM
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MIsterLee:
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Anony is bolemic....aw... you mean he can read minds?? :) woahhh... sure, ortiz might perform well in his next undercard or two or three.... but it seems in the future any time he'll face tough opposition who will punch back with a good chin (ie- taylor froch taylor pavlik), he will go down chinatown. i'm with boxers thick and thin, but ortiz disappointed me man. i don't fault how taylor went down, but the way ortiz went down was straight bush league man. i would pay to watch mayweahther cotto, or mosley, or pacquiao. but yep, ortiz, the golden toy, he like meldrick taylor man, except meldrick didn't give up. pc out!
Wednesday Jul 1, 2009 02:30:40 PM
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Fe'Roz @ anony:
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No doubt Ortiz has earned our attention and will draw strong audiences in the future.....but not necessarily for the right reasons. We will be watching to see if he can beat the odds and become a genuine champ. It's possible...but doubts will remain. It's equally possible that he becomes a very dynamic and entertaining fighter but more like Fernando Vargas whose fights were watched by everyone for their ferocity and action. More likely, we will watch to see if that 'quit' he displayed manifests again like a Judah or Cintron. I have said all along I like this kid. He is good for boxing. The question is whether boxing is good for him.
Wednesday Jul 1, 2009 02:30:51 PM
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silly goose:
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i have mixed feelings about this as an ortiz fan i was very dissapointed as a boxing fan i was ashamed but as a person i dont blame him i mean remember a warrior by the name of fernando vargas, well he didnt quit when he took a beatin from tito trinidad n in my eyes that fight was the beginnin of the end for him n he was still in his early twenties in that fight as ortiz was in this one. so i hope ortiz does all the thinkin he has to do n if hes willin to come back as a fighter ill b willin to give him another chance.
Wednesday Jul 1, 2009 02:35:16 PM
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Real Talk:
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No comment , I'm too late for this one.
Wednesday Jul 1, 2009 05:44:05 PM
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Anony:
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Can I say one more thing... plzzz.... hahahaha ... just kidding but I was wondering how many of you here will continue fighting against Maidana if you had an open BIG cut in your right eye and THAT THING UNDER YOUR LEFT EYE (looking at the photo) about to explode and bath the ringside fans or the HBO commentators..... can we make a poll of how many of you will fight in those condition???? plzzzz I even wonder how many of you used to fight in the streets when you were boys, I mean, bare hands, one on one and a bunch of people asking for your head. Good thing I never got beat but I saw lots of meaner MF's cry like babies when they got beat to the ground. That's when you become compassionate and understand how dangerous the "hurt business" can become. I'll finish congratulating Ortíz for being smart. He already got beat in life by his family and nobody payed for that. Money or macho stupidity is no reason to stop smiling in life. Boxing is a career.
Thursday Jul 2, 2009 07:21:33 AM
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RED:
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There is a clear and considerable difference between a fighter that chooses not to continue fighting because he knows he's unable and a fighter that chooses not to continue because he simply doesn't feel like it. There are the fighters whose bodies simply cannot go on and fighters whose disposition to fight stops. There is no shame in stopping when you can't go on. There's ALL the shame in the world to stop when you simply don't want to go on. Ortiz was more than physically capable to go on. He chose not to because Maidana was beating him. Plain and simple. Ergo, he quit and he should be quite ashamed of it.
Thursday Jul 2, 2009 10:35:45 AM
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RED:
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There is a clear and considerable difference between a fighter that chooses not to continue fighting because he knows he's unable and a fighter that chooses not to continue because he simply doesn't feel like it. There are the fighters whose bodies simply cannot go on and fighters whose disposition to fight stops. There is no shame in stopping when you can't go on. There's ALL the shame in the world to stop when you simply don't want to go on. Ortiz was more than physically capable to go on. He chose not to because Maidana was beating him. Plain and simple. Ergo, he quit and he should be quite ashamed of it.
Thursday Jul 2, 2009 10:36:40 AM
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MisterLee @ anony:
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Every fighter is put in that position, it's their JOB. Since i'm an aspiring high school teacher, if te class becomes a riot, it's my job to contain them. I don't just run to the office. Ortiz had a chance to make millions off of this fight and future fights. Every fighter is put in life or death each time he is "tested". Cotto torres, cotto took that challenge and spit it out. Cotto corley, cotto's been tested in almost every single one of his fights. I'm sure every professoin is hard, and shame on whoever taps out or quits on their profession midway. they won't get far. We are judging fighters based on standards fighters BEFORE them have set, and we hold them to that bar, and Ortiz didn't pass it. Pc out!
Thursday Jul 2, 2009 12:26:05 PM
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dogboxer:
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you cannot compare a tap out to quitting, not the same and not fair, this kid could come back and be a great fighter at the same time he may not have the heart he needs to have to become successful, brutalizing him will not do much, I do not feel he should be labeled a quitter yet, his next fight should show where he is at and where he will go, I know it would not be wise to get your arm ripped off in order not to be labeled a quitter, when mma fighters tap they are not happy about what has happened but they do come back to fight another day, and I might add there has only been one death in mma, and what a 146 in boxing, I am a former boxer that now trains mma fighters so I am not talking out the side of my neck!!! kudos to coach mcloed
Thursday Jul 2, 2009 05:55:53 PM
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MisterLee:
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Without tapping out UFC and MMA would have never been accepted as a sanctioned sport. In the first UFC in about 1993, you had Royce Gracie getting a guy in the full mount and just grabbed his wrist and snapped his elbow in half with his other hand. That's sick man, and in either that one or part two he broke someone's arm AFTER they tapped out in order to show his dominance (Jason something, a poor rep for 5 animals kung fu). Also in the first ufc, you had this chump named Joe who authored a new "fighting style" called "Joe Son Do", he got pinned early, and the guy threw about 5-6 unanswered punches to the guys crotch (no pads no gloves). That kind of violence can never sustain a marketable audience nor get approved in any state. In the UFC, the rules basically go: knocked out cold, ref stoppage (if fighter is unable to defend him/herself), tap out from a joint manipulation (tendons or joints or both gonna snap!) or choke hold (rare naked choke, tap out or black out!), in early days, royce would use his karate gi to suffocate opponents. Good stuff!
Thursday Jul 2, 2009 11:05:30 PM
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RED@ Mister Lee:
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Excellent point you make. Can you imagine someone in ANY OTHER profession simply stopping because the going is too tough. A cop walking away from a shoot-out. A firefigther walking away from a 5 alarm fire. A doctor walking away from a busy trauma center. Even in sports, imagine teams simply walking away because they're down a ton. The greatest comebacks in sports history have been made by teams that kept doing their jobs. Ortiz quit because the going got too tough. NO ONE with a basic degree of honesty could argue that he was physically unable to continue. He simply stopped doing his job. Like Hyman Roth told Michael Corleone in the Godfather Part II, "this is the business we've chosen". Ortiz chose to turn his back on the business and, therefore, on us fans of the sport.
Friday Jul 3, 2009 06:22:35 AM
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Anony:
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Royce Gracie is the grandfather of Kamasutra fighting.... IT'S TRUE!!!!
Friday Jul 3, 2009 08:15:19 AM
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MisterLee the caveman:
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Actually Royce Grace was the grandson of the kama sutra style. Helio gracie i believe was the tru grandfather of the.. .man this is so offensive, i can only laugh.... hahaha... so utterly offensive. the gracies can take about any 3 of us at the same time. see ya! haha...
Friday Jul 3, 2009 10:41:44 AM
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The Lone Star State Beckons Boxing Back
9/3/10, Dallas, Texas --- "WELCOME TO TEXAS" --- Dallas Cowboys owner Jerry Jones (ctr) welcomes superstar Manny Pacquiao (L) and three-time world champion Antonio Margarito (R) to Cowboy Stadium at the press conference Friday for their upcoming mega fight on November 13 at Cowboys Stadium in Arlington,Texas. Pacquiao vs Margarito is promoted by Top Rank in association with MP Promotions and Cowboys Stadium. This telecast will be available live on HBO Pay Per View.
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