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It'll Take The Right Fighter And Plan To Beat Wladimir Klitschko
By Frank Lotierzo
Tony Galento was gonna go right at Joe Louis and hit him on the chin and knock him out. How'd that work out other than Galento providing Louis a brief scare in the third round? You could list every opponent of Muhammad Ali who challenged him in the sixties and seventies excluding Joe Frazier and George Foreman, who said they were going to cut the ring off on him and prevent him from using his legs to control the fight. Yet only Frazier and Foreman had success nullifying his legs and lateral movement. Both Ali and Jimmy Ellis said repeatedly before fighting Frazier how they weren't going to get trapped in a corner or along the ropes when they fought him, something Ellis was successful at preventing for two rounds and Ali about three or four.
Ken Norton said before fighting Foreman that he was going to box and counter punch him during their fight. A strategy that lasted about a round or until he got hit. Practically every challenger who faced Larry Holmes predicted they were going to get past his jab and rough him up, yet Holmes went on to make more successful title defenses than any other heavyweight champ other than Joe Louis. How many opponents of Mike Tyson were going to box him, then after getting hit they fought to keep from getting stopped instead of winning? Before challenging Lennox Lewis, Tommy Morrison, David Tua and Mike Tyson vowed they'd take the fight to him and knock him out inside the distance. Then resorted to plan B after getting touched a few times on the way in.
The often repeated phrase "they all have a plan until they get hit" was coined by the late Jim Jacobs but got the most play via Mike Tyson. Jacobs also coined the term "he throws punches with bad intentions" while studying films of Joe Frazier prior to his first fight versus Muhammad Ali. The point here is having a strategy or plan sounds great before the fight, but unless you have the right fighter to execute the plan it's really just cookbook analogy. The cookbook recipe may call for a teaspoon of this, a quarter pound of that along with an oven pre-heated at 350 degrees, and the cake should turn out a certain way. Unfortunately, there are no cookbook answers that apply in the ring for all fighters.
Prior to fighting Marvin Hagler, Sugar Ray Leonard picked up on the fact that Hagler wasn't the most effective fighting as the aggressor. In his two previous loses to Bobby Watts and Willie Monroe, Hagler was forced to fight as the attacker for most of the fight, thus he lost by decision to both in their first meeting. After watching Leonard induce Hagler to follow him all over the ring for a majority of the 12-rounds they fought, it's obvious that Hagler was no Joe Frazier at cutting off the ring and Ray knew it. Since that fight I've heard it said to beat Hagler all you have to do is box him instead of bringing the fight to him, which is exactly what a majority of his opponents did. Really, is that all you have to do?
That is the perfect cookbook analogy. Granted, Hagler like many other fighters wasn't at his best when forced to push the fight. That said, how many past or present middleweights were capable of fighting Hagler the way Leonard did/could? So much for the perfect plan. Without the right fighter the perfect strategy and fight plan will explode when the oven is turned up too much.
Enter Wladimir Klitschko. Since his fight Saturday versus Ruslan Chagaev it's been repeated by boxing fans and media people that Chagaev is terrible and had no heart. Really? What a flawed thought process. So in other words Chagaev didn't want to beat the perceived best fighter in the heavyweight division and fight for millions of dollars in his next fight. Maybe Chagaev never saw Klitschko fight before and didn't know what he was facing? Not likely. Prior to challenging Wladimir Klitschko, Ruslan Chagaev saw every title defense he made, heard every commentator and fan echo how Klitschko fights scared and fears taking a big shot on the chin. Therefore, just go get him, that's what the cookbook calls for.
This may not be a revelation to some, but once a fighter gets hit cleanly by his opponent everything changes. Sometimes it doesn't have to be clean, it could just be a grazing shot, but fighters still know. For some reason the recent challengers who have faced Wladimir Klitschko decided not to go after him once they're in front of him. Could it be that they're all heartless and gutless, and that after taking punches and training hard for years they suddenly decide they don't want to become the heavyweight boxing champion? Do they all stink? How come they don't shut down against most of the other fighters they fight? What is it about Wladimir Klitschko that makes most of his challengers chose not to fight him?
Perhaps, it's the same thing that happened to Morrison, Tua and Tyson when they fought Lennox Lewis. Maybe after being touched by him a few times they realize not only can he hurt them, but they can be humiliated and embarrassed in the process, which discouraged them to really push and engage him. This is something that's been a common theme during Klitschko's recent title defenses. In other words, once they feel his jab and sense they can't time when his right hand is coming, they chose to adapt the mindset maybe he'll make a mistake and I'll catch him good, as opposed to going out and taking their own liberty with him.
The reality is Wladimir Klitschko's first priority is to keep his opponent from tagging him with anything big. To achieve that he uses his long and powerful left jab to impose himself physically on them. His physical stature regarding his height and reach makes him hard to get to. The fact that he doesn't willingly mix it up inducing open exchanges makes it harder to get to him. With him controlling the pace and distance he forces his opponent to have to come out of themselves with the hope of disrupting him and causing him to panic. The risk in doing that is they're being forced to guess and fight blindly, whereas he is seeing everything and can make them pay for missing or being out of position.
The other thing he has going for him is there isn't one active heavyweight fighter who brings multiple things to the ring that can force him to adjust. If he's facing another fighter who can punch like Hasim Rahman or Lamon Brewster, they don't have the means to deliver their power without getting beat up in the process. Other fighters who can box a little don't have the punch to worry him or shake him up even if they can score.
His size and power are enough to cause any fighter real problems, but the fact that he fights a safety-first style compounds it. He induces a slow pace that automatically has him in position to where he sees everything that's going on and can adjust to it before it's too late. He'd actually be easier to beat if he wasn't worried about his chin because he'd engage more and be open to get nailed much harder than he has been in his last few title defenses.
In order to go after him, it's gonna take a fighter who has Holyfield/Frazier type courage and accepts they're going to get hit and it's going to be painful. And that fighter better take a good punch and be able to deliver one of his own. He has to be willing to get knocked out going for the knockout. The best plan strategically isn't enough to beat the current version of Wladimir Klitschko that we've recently seen.
No, it's gonna take the right plan along with the right fighter to execute it. There's only one problem with that, there just aren't many of those fighters around, if any. It's not that every heavyweight out there today stinks, it's more a case of him being a handful physically and strategically than anything else. Which isn't the same as saying he's an all-time great. It's more of him being great at using and applying what tools he does have at his disposal.
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derema:
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Interesting analysis. Which poses the question for me. Has there ever been a heavyweight like Wlad? As I think about this, the way you have described him, I can not think of anyone like him. Since Wlad has been successful with his approach to boxing, could his style be a blueprint for future heavyweights who are of his physical and mental makeup?
Thursday Jun 25, 2009 04:33:58 AM
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Geza:
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I doubt that Vlad's style will be a blueprint any more than Ali's was. Who else has his physical and mental makeup? Not even his own brother. And it's not like the Eastern European fighters are turned out on an Assembly line. They are as different and individual as American fighters.
Thursday Jun 25, 2009 10:07:21 AM
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mike m:
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Great article. Particularly the analogy to Lewis. If i recall the Tua / Lewis prefight odds. It was pick em. Everyone hopped on the Tua bandwagon and then Tua got in the fight, took some stiff jabs, figured he had to go through hell to get to Lewis and just laid back and took his beating just like Tyson, Morrison, and quite a few others. Back then i made the mistake of believing Lewis didn't have a chin, lack of heart, typical british heavyweight. After the Golota fight i got on the right horse which was Lewis. The fighters i recall really taking the fight to Lewis and really trying was Ray Mercer and the Croatian guy with the mohawk. Everyone is making the same mistake now with Wlad, he is completely improved fighter from 3-4 years ago. Wlad against Arreola will be exactly like Lewis/Morrison or Lewis/Tua except quicker. Tua in his prime was better than Arreola and at least came in shape to fight in his younger years. Arreola already has bad training habits/discipline and is wasting his ability if he continues that way.
Thursday Jun 25, 2009 11:01:29 AM
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#1 Pacfan "P4P Legend":
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Once a fighter gets hit flush and doesn't take it very well the tables will turn. The last time Vlad got hit really good was by Lewis and ever since then he hasn't been there for two reasons, he improved his defense; and the lack of competetion in the division. I just don't see anyobody beating him at this moment but all it takes one shot and your in for a fight.
Thursday Jun 25, 2009 11:55:53 AM
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Radam G, a humble PacManite down from da mountain top:
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The right fighter to beat Doc Wlad "Wall of china chin" Klit is Chris Arreola. He'll shatter some glass and kick some a$$. I don't hear Doctor china chin calling him out. The right plan to beat that sucka is WHOOP upside DA GLASS JAW! Hit 'em upside DA GLASS JAW! Y'all better listen! The Cali-Mexican is da baddest heavyweight around. It is just a matter of time before da blind develop eyesight and SEE that DA real legit Nightmare is going be taking names and whuppin a$$es. Da Cali Crusher is no HYPE, he can straight FIGHT. He will go down in history as one of the greatest fighters of all times. That's right! I said it! Holla!
Thursday Jun 25, 2009 11:58:16 AM
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Jerry:
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Riddick Bowe deserves a chance. I know if given the chance he would beat any heavyweight out there, including both Klitchko's. Its amazing how people forget what Riddick Bowe did for the sport of boxing. His blowouts of Ferguson, Dokes, and Gonzalez are legendary. The guy's lost 1 fight. 1 fight (a split decision loss decided by 1 round that could have gone either way). He beat a prime Holyfield twice and patiently absorbed a prime Golota's brutal shots until he self destructed. The story was George Foreman in 1987; it's Riddick Bowe in 2009. Riddick "Big Daddy" Bowe will once again reign supreme.
Thursday Jun 25, 2009 12:08:07 PM
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ultimoshogun:
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I agree with Radam on this one. Arreola has the best chance out of the current HW's to take out Wladimir. I think the only way of beating Wlad is to explode on him and not let him dictate the pace the way Sanders did. Arreola's brawling style and size at 6'4 is tailor made to execute this gameplan.
Thursday Jun 25, 2009 12:34:22 PM
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dr3r42:
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As usualy, great article by Frank; that's why he's the best in the business. He realizes "cookbook" strategy often goes out the window when they've been hit, and that few fighters have the natural ability to follow the strategy. I am sure if you could back George Foreman up during the 1970's, he'd have been dead, but easier said than done.
Thursday Jun 25, 2009 12:34:50 PM
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Anonymous user:
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I hate to break this to you, but Chris A. has his own chin "issues" , since he's been rocked and dropped in his last few fights. But I would agree that Arreolla has the best chance of beating Wlad (next to Vitali, who would negate a lot of his brothers' size advantage, plus Wlad would be intimidated by Vitali's own power). The trouble with Arreolla/Wlad match up is that IT AIN'T HAPPENING- Chris will wind up fighting Vitali- who unlike Wlad has a strong chin and doesn't have confidence issues. If Chris gets by Vitali, then it becomes a real issue.
Thursday Jun 25, 2009 12:40:49 PM
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Radam G, a humble PacManite spitting heavy:
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"I hate to break this to you," but Muhammad Ali got knocked down twice and staggered 15 times before he won the title. Joe Frazier got knocked twice and staggered 12 time before he won the title. Floyd Patterson got knocked 11 times and staggered about 40 times before he won the title. The great Joe Louis got knocked down nine times and knocked out one time before he won the title. So what is your point about "chin issues?" Every champ has been down or out. That has nothing to do with winning the title. Da Cali Crusher is going to kayo Doc Wlad like Ali kayoed Sonny "NightTrain" Liston. Get ready to get use to an American "Brownbomber" -- being world champion. Holla!
Thursday Jun 25, 2009 01:01:08 PM
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ultimoshogun:
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Here we go again with Riddick Bowe.. Where's the Roast at?
Thursday Jun 25, 2009 01:06:09 PM
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dr3r42:
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What are you making stuff up for ? At least if I make an arguement I try to be honest. Joe Louis was not down 9 times BEFORE he won the title (I think once by Schmelling, maybe another time). Floyd Patterson was not down 11 times BEFORE he won the title. I know you are an Arreolla fan, but try and be somewhat objective. People have a right to question his chin and his work ethic. I like him too as a prospect, and I like his chances against Wlad (even though I'd favor Wlad). But anyways, that fight is not happening- he's fighting Vitali first, Everyone knows that (Wlad's got two mandatories and probably Haye).
Thursday Jun 25, 2009 01:39:57 PM
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Jhonny:
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I'd give Oliver "The Atomic Bull" McCall a hell of a chance against Klitschko. If he could go in there rampagaing and utter manaical and gripped in insanity's clutch, he could force Dr. Glassjaw to soil himself. The guy has arguably the best beard in boxing history and punches like a mule. Throw in the off-his-rocker trait and you've got a new champ. McCall KO 3 Klitschko.
Thursday Jun 25, 2009 02:44:37 PM
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Fe'Roz:
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Reposted from Quarry Frazier article last night (in support of every word of F-Lo) Watching Joe Frazier systematically break down Quarry, an elite fighter in his prime, made me smile at the memory. This was the heavyweight boxing of lore; the division that captured and sustained the imagination and loyalty of boxing fans worldwide. The first rounds were like Castillo Corrales (or vica versa)....and yet these were Heavyweights. There was more action and drama in these 6 plus rounds....and in all of Joe' fights....not seen again until the arrival of Mike Tyson (at his prime). Evander of small stature and mighty heart gave us his share of similar moments. Frazier was a relentless seek and destroy killing machine. Cotto, body puncher extraordinaire, cannot compare. Joe could take maybe even better than he could give. He would walk through either Klitscko's jab, lean on their shoulders as if tho attached with velcro, and bust them up with brutal body and hip shots....both Vlad and Vatili would have quit. Soon after Quarry, Joe would walk through Jimmy Ellis and then go on to KD Muhammed in the 15th of his victorious battle. The man deserves a distinguished place in history.
Thursday Jun 25, 2009 03:27:36 PM
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Fe'Roz :
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I sent the piece above from my Blackberry after reading Frank 's article. Over-thinking Vlad is unfortunately a sad endeavor. The Heavyweight division is, by any historical standards, a desert. The roster of active contenders is filled with either Big and Slow, Big and Fat, Big Mouth no Show, Big but No Balls. None are worthy of sustained support. There are no Joe Frazier's or Evander's with the will, the skill and the most important of all....the heart. Me, I'm watching every division but the Heavy's.....pc
Thursday Jun 25, 2009 03:55:33 PM
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mrx:
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man chris arreola wont beat wladimir klitschko itll be like that time lenox lewis kod mike tyson the only one i belive will beat this mans big bro
Thursday Jun 25, 2009 04:19:49 PM
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Michael Jackson dead at 50:
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Riddick Bowe is broke. I read an article in the New York Times a couple of weeks ago that featured him and his signing gloves at a flea market (Google: Bowe/News). In the article, he stated that he was going to get back in the gym ASAP, fight 10 tomato cans, then fight for the title. I'd say it's a long shot. Oliver McCall is intriguing. He is a lunatic and could possibly get to Klitschko. We know he can take a punch.
Thursday Jun 25, 2009 05:55:59 PM
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brownsugar:
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Lennox Ko'd a road-weary, thrice defeated,.. shell of man whose only desire was to milk a final big payday against an in prime Lewis,.. Tyson was done long before the Lewis bout even started,.. .. and the boxing public still came out in droves as if Tyson could pull a KO out of his back pocket,.. their belief in Tyson never waivering even as Lennox literally appeared to be chastising Tyson for all his past transgressions,.. while exorcizing a few of Tysons demons in the process.... (Tyson said he could have quit but willingly soaked up every drop of the beat down so he would be exonerated by the increasing number of alienated fans who were growing tired of Tysons bizaare antics),... Tyson said after the fight,.. that he took the abuse for his fans,.. and he felt relieved like a burden was lifted off his shoulders,.. I thought he was going to ask to be nailed to a cross next.......I have no doubts that Tyson in his prime would have murdered Lewis quick and early...even with the size disadvantage,.. it's called determination,.. confidence and desire,..if you have enought of that,.. like a younger Tyson did,..no-one is too big,..
Thursday Jun 25, 2009 06:57:48 PM
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Fe'Roz :
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I second that emotion Brownsugar. Prime Tyson kills Lennox Lewis. Lest we forget that Hassem Rahman and Oliver McCall, two footnotes if that, KOed prime Lewis.That fight was a sham and a shame.
Thursday Jun 25, 2009 07:04:35 PM
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brownsugar:
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all it would take to beat Klits is a big heavyweight with some good amatuer experience who comes to fight( not these late starting journeymen bums who only fight for booze,.. crack,.. hookers,.. and a paycheck with no serious desire to be the best),.. Klits reminds me slightly of Chambers,.. not as slick,.. but pretty close (and much bigger),.. he fights within his comfort zone, leisurely stepping in whatever direction necessary to keep the distance at his predetermined specifications,.. while sapping his opponents life away with a jab mixed in with some steel hammer rights to put the fear of God into them,... which simultaneously warns them of the penalty for trespassing into his personal space,... and he does it at a very comfortable pace,.. 60 punches a round,.. a few steps to the left,.. a few steps to the side,.. advance a little,.. or a single 5 ft step to the rear if his opponents get brave,.. I agree with,...Radam,... Areola,.. the big chubby mexican terror will make him fight,.. and force him out of his comfortable routine,.. But he'll just have to make sure that he keeps dishing out some damage on the way in,.. because he'll sure be catching something gaining that inside access.... call me CRAZY, or even a Fool,.. but I really believe that the extremely unorthodox Kingpin Johnson would give Klits fits,.. just because he doesn't really have a set rhythym,.. he goes from being "playful,, lying on the ropes,.. to mugging and hotdogging,.. to boxing,.. to all-out-warfare,..not to mention he's the perfect size,... I know it seems ridiculous now,..just let it sink in a little,.. you haven't seen anywhere near the best of Johnson yet,... in the meantime I'll still enjoy Klits,...do what he do,.. I'm an equal opportunity fan...
Thursday Jun 25, 2009 07:28:13 PM
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brownsugar:
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thanks for the comment Fe'Roz,.. well said,.. I'm going to have to find a topic we don't agree on,.. your one of the few who can hold an intelligent argument,.... LOL,...
Thursday Jun 25, 2009 07:33:07 PM
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brownsugar:
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Quiet Night,... guess I'll go back to watching, the Michal Jackson 24/7 coverage... peace... no I'm not going to start on Michael Jackson,.. I'll be up all night...
Thursday Jun 25, 2009 07:38:22 PM
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the Roast:
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Jerry, Jerry, Jerry. Time for you to lay back and absorb some shots. I did a little research for you bro. After the Golota fights in '96 Riddick Bowe went a little crazy. He joined the Marines for about two days. Quits. He kidnapped his ex wife and kids. Did a little time for that. In 2004 he gets back in the ring, wins by tko in 2nd over Marcus Rhode. 2005, struggles to a 10 rnd win over Billy Zumbrum. '06, '07, nothing. December '08 defeats Gene Pukall by 8 rnd UD. Pukall's record is 14-13-2. He has been KOed in 3 of 4 previous bouts, 2 in the 1st round. Do you hear what I'm sayin here Jerry? How in the Hell can you make a case for Bowe? Riddick is a sad story. A waste of talent. If he had half the work ethic of Holyfield, he could have been one of the all time greats. It's over man. give it up. This was your intervention.
Thursday Jun 25, 2009 09:41:20 PM
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the Roast:
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@ Fe'ROZ and Brownsugar,...even though I respect the hell out of both of you, I disagree. Mike Tyson was a bully. As soon as someone stood up to him and fought back, he folded. Prime Lennox Lewis stood 6'5 and Iron Mike was 5'10. Rahman and McCall landed a right hand over the top to KO Lewis. Both were over 6'2. I say Mike would be too short to land that shot. How did Tyson do with tall, strong guys like Tony Tucker or Bonecrusher Smith? A lot of clutch and grab. Lennox at his best would have kept Mike at arms lenght with the jab-right hand. Have you guys forgotten what Buster Douglas did to a prime Tyson? He out boxed him, punished him, and knocked him out. It's all speculation but Tyson had a lot of trouble with tall, strong boxers. Lewis by KO, prime vs prime round 11!
Thursday Jun 25, 2009 10:04:49 PM
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Fe'Roz @ the Roast:
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The problem with your observation....although accurate in many regards....is that their careers were concurrent not consecutive......so they could arguably have fought in the primes. Albeit Mike was in jail most of his, including when Lewis got knocked out by McCall. That they didn't fight in 1995, however, is a shame. As to who would have won, I'll stick with Mike....but respect as always our difference of opinion. pc
Thursday Jun 25, 2009 10:48:36 PM
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thegreatestofalltime10:
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Let's get the "Buster Douglas knocking out a prime Mike Tyson" facts straight. Mike Tyson did not train properly for that fight. He tried to commit suicide months before the fight, was getting over a dviorce with Robin Givens, and Greg Page knocked him down in training, and he got rid of his trainer. It was just a matter of time before someone kocked him out, it just happen to be Buster Douglas that night. If you go back to the first Frank Bruno fight, after the Spinks fight when he got rid of his trainer but before the Buster Douglas fight. Bruno rocked him in the fifth round with a shotthat he never would have got caught with. He started to decline after the Spink fight. I'm not making excuses for Tyson. He got beat up and knocked out but that wasn't the "in shape and skilled Tyson that we saw before the Spinks fight. That was the Tyson that went back looking for a one-punch knockout. He didn't throw any combinations in that fight. And he never had problems with men that were way bigger than him. He just didn't get rid of most of them early. But, he would beat them up over the distance if it wasn't a late KO. A prime Tyson would have knocked out a Prime Holyfield and Lewis late in the fight. There are two fighters that was unbeatable in their prime, Mike Tyson and Muhammad Ali.
Thursday Jun 25, 2009 11:51:33 PM
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Fe'Roz :
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Correction: Joe Frazier beat a prime Ali. Sorry
Thursday Jun 25, 2009 11:56:39 PM
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thegreatofalltime10:
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Joe Frazier beat a Muhammad Ali that was away from boxing for four years and only had one tune-up fight. By the time that Joe Frazier met Muhammad Ali, Ali's legs were gone. I don't see anybody beating Muhammad Ali before they forced him to be away from boxing for four years. When Ali came back to boxing, he won his fights with his brain and skill but not the same skill he had before they took away his boxing license. Muhammad Ali would have humiliated the same Joe Frazier that fought Sonny Liston and the other fighters before the four-year abscence from the sport.
Friday Jun 26, 2009 01:05:11 AM
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thegreatofalltime10:
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Muhammad Ali would have humiliated Joe Frazier if he would have fought him before the four-year abscence from the sport just like he did Sonny Liston, which I think was a better fighter than Joe Frazier.
Friday Jun 26, 2009 01:07:28 AM
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the Roast:
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Tyson didnt train properly for the fight? Who's fault was that? Tyson screwed himself time and time again. IMO, if Mike would have beat Buster that night, Evander would have beat him in the next fight. Holyfield was a better boxer at that time. Boxer. Not slugger. Mike robbed me of my generation's Ali-Frazier. First by losing to Buster, then by going to jail like a dumba**. Mike was the biggest puncher that I ever saw. It is entirely possible that he could have KOed Lewis and Holyfield. I think both of those great fighters would have knocked him out in the late rounds. Holyfield did it. It's in the books. I gotta go to work! TSS on the brain!!!!
Friday Jun 26, 2009 06:30:10 AM
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Fe'roz:
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Muhammed Ali was to me the GOAT but Joe Frazier was and always would be his stylistic nighmare. He feared no man nor death in rthe ring. He would have cut Ali off and cornered him no matter when they fought. Ali on the other hand avenged himself I Manila and vanquished any remant of doubt that her was tge Greatest
Friday Jun 26, 2009 08:10:36 AM
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dr3r42:
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How can you argue about Tyson not being in shape for Douglass ? He had to be in shape in order to come back from the beating that Douglass gave him to knock Douglass down late in the fight. And you talk about Mike Tyson's distractions before the Douglass fight ? What about Buster Douglass, his mother died a week before the fight and he was 10,000 miles away from her- you don't think that was a distraction ? Like I argued on Frank's Lennox Lewis thread, that you never responded to, it's always something with you guys "Cus Died" (he died before Tyson's 11th fight); "He didn't have Kevin Rooney" (how many champions or even contenders has Rooney had since Tyson) "he stopped throwing combinations (come on Tyson threw all kinds of combinations, like any swarmer- Right uppercut-left hook) "Mike was washed up after Spinks- what was he 22 ? That wasn't a prime Tyson when he fought Hollyfield (Was that a prime Hollyfield ?- Evander's 4 years older than Mike and while Mike was resting in jail Evander was getting beat down in 3 wars with Bowe, Mercer, Foreman, Cooper, Dokes and many others. I swear you guys only look at from Tyson's view- everything has to be perfect
Friday Jun 26, 2009 10:40:20 AM
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zack d:
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Fe'ROZ and Brownsugar, nice to see people talking boxing who have historical perspective, but youi guys are off on a bunch of things IMO. First, I agree with The Roast about Tyson-Lewis in their primes. Except it wouldn't have taken 11 rounds. As far as Joe Frazier being worthy of great recognition, no argument here. He was great. But he'd have zero chance with either Klitschko. You're talking about a 5'11" guy here. Size ain't everything. But his style would have been all wrong for the task. The bobbing and weaving thing would've worked for about as long as it did against Foreman... not long. Many boxing fans don't realize that Frazier fought Foreman a second time - with a nearly identical result: Smokin Joe getting smoked. It could've been 10 times with the same result. Both Klitschkos are bigger, more athletic, and technically better than Foreman was. The Klitschkos are WAY underrated. What this amounts to his a lot of hatin. Probably cause they're European and not American. But the KO bros. can fight. Period. They're no where near as important historically as some previos champs: Jack Johnson, Dempsey, Marciano, Joe Louis, etc. But IMO there's only two guys in history that could beat either: Ali, and possibly Lennox Lewis. And with Lennoix it's debatable. Ali could take what they dish out, out box either of them, beat 'em both on points or cuts. Holyfield in his prime could have been interesting cause of his heart and determination. He might've had a shot, but cringe at the thought of the beating he'd have took doing it. A lot like Brewster.
Friday Jun 26, 2009 01:03:48 PM
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Radam G, a humble PacManite laughing at a know nothing trippin' by da tongue:
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dr3r42, you are outta of your mind. I guess you don't know jack or jill and cannot fill a molehill! In the bout against Schemling, alone, Joe Louis got knocked down three times before getting knocked da fudge out. Louis was knocked down 17 times in his career. Buddy Baer, Tony Galento, Jersey Joe Walcot, Ezzard Charles, Rocky Marciano, Jack Sharkey, a light heavy champ named Lewis, and about four other fighter who I cannot think of right now knocked him down. Even Rocky Marciano knocked him down twice before knocking him out. Wow, DUDE, instead of coming after me, you should go and look at footage of Louis getting drop because of carrying his right hand low. And as for Floyd Patterson, he got knocked down by Joey Maxim four times. Even win he won the title against Archie Moore, the Old Mongoose drop him twice. Even when Patterson had his first defense of his title against an Olympic gold medal winner, Patterson got dropped by old Pete R, who was in his first pro bout. In his whole career, Patterson was knocked down 36 time plus. Bottomline, Dude, I'm solid as a ROCK, and don't bull$hit and make-believe. And don't research or know Dilly squat before attacking with arrogrance and lack of facts and knowledge. Holla!
Friday Jun 26, 2009 02:16:18 PM
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thegreatestoftime10:
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ok The Roast and Fe'roz. I agree with some of your comments. Mike Tyson robbed the boxing fans of having a Ali/Frazier fight and a 80s error that could have been compared to the 70s. But, you said it yourself, Tyson spent four years in prison while Holyfield was going through wars with Bowe, Mercer, Cooper, and Dokes. First of all four years is a long time to be inactive and second of all, how many of those guys that you mentioned besides Bowe, would have gave a primed Tyson the problems that they would have given Bowe. You never seen anything like Mike Tyson. He had the hand speed and the foot speed of a middleweight and one punch knockout power in both hands in his peak. Do you all honestly think that Holyfield and Lewis would have stand a chance against Tyson with the blinding speed and knockout punches that looked like he barely hit him but they would fold anyway. Spinks beat a primed Larry Holmes twice and Mike Tyson roasted him in one round. I agree that it's not Holyfield and Lennox's fault that Tyson decided to waste his God-given gifts and talent. But, everyone knows that there has never been a more talented heavyweight with those kind os special gifts since Muhammad Ali. There were very boxers that were special at the peaks of their powers Sugar Ray Robinson, Muhammad Ali, Mike Tyson, Roy Jones Junior, Manny Pacquiao. The rest of the fighters beow them are just great in their own right. Nothing against Holyfield and Lennox Lewis because they are great fighters but their skills at their peaks doesn't match up with a Peak Mike Tyson. I saw this man deliver a punch that lifted a guy off his feet only to fly into the ropes. When you talk about fighters that were extremely gifted and are looking for the next great heavyweight, they aren't mentioning another Holyfield or a Lewis. You and all the boxing fans are looking for the next Mike Tyson just like before Tyson came on the scene boxing fans was looking for the next Muhammad Ali.
Friday Jun 26, 2009 02:20:15 PM
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dr3r42:
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Lets see.... Joe Louis was down 17 X's and 9 times before he was champ- that's comical. "Joe Louis was down 6 times during his championship career: Braddock (once) Galento (once), Buddy Baer (once) and Walcott (3X) " Source : 1971 The Ring Record Book page 376. I have film of Louis-Charles and he was NEVER down in that fight, nor was he ever down against "the lightheavyweight champion named Lewis"(John Henry Lewis) He was never down against Jack Sharkey (at least not that I can remember -it was a one-sided destruction). I believe he was down twice aganst Schemelling (4th ? and 12th) and twice in the 8th against Marciano- as an old man.
Friday Jun 26, 2009 03:12:14 PM
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brownsugar:
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Roast ,.. you make a good point,. but here's where I differ,.. Douglas was on fire that night,.. that has to be one of the most entertaining fights in history with Douglas blasting Tyson with laser sharp,.. stiff jabs,.. uppercuts,.. hooks,.. smashing rights,. I mean the man averaged about 90 to 100 punches a round,.. and displayed footwork that would have made Willie Pep proud,.. Welterweights don't look that good,.... it was an amazing onetime effort by Douglas,.. who was demoted back to gatekeeper after Holyfield got the "unmotivated version of Douglas" who would have been a legend if he consistanly fought up to his abilities,.. Lennox has never fought at that pace,.. he waits around for opening,.. and he would have come to Fight,..NOT Survive,.. like BoneCrusher who cared only about seeing the final bell and offered few opportunties... I really think that if Lennox was in the ring with Tyson that night,.. he would have gotten dropped for the count,.. because he would have provided far more opportunites for Tyson to counter...rather than turn the fight into a grapple fest...
Friday Jun 26, 2009 03:50:36 PM
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Radam G, a humble PacManite last comment to a cyberspace whacked job:
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What about being knocked down by Rocky Marciano, Mr dr3r42. I just saw Rocky Marciano knocked Joe Louis down twice then out through the ropes. And your source: The Ring Magazine is the same source that had fighters with fake records in 1977. Great source, hum! You fake and pretend all you like, and believe whatever you want to. But the thing is, is that I have rear fight films from a legendary collector of them. And I'm putting many of them on YouTube. You are just a cyberspace creep and weirdo with nothing better to do, than to come up in this universe with your jabberwocky. Phoniness 2 U. I love a clown. You are a good laugh. Holla!
Friday Jun 26, 2009 04:21:48 PM
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brownsugar:
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Zack D... if you ever read my posts about Wlad,...you'll see that I never speak negative about him,.. and I didn't do it here,.. because frankly what can I say bad about a guy whose won 11 straight,.. 8 by KO,.. and I usually don't do the historical matchups,.. because it's too subjective,.. but since you brought it up,.. I'll give it a go,..I think if Demsey was matched with Klits,... before the first round even started he'd go back to his corner and ask his trainers to cut the gloves off and go find him someone in his weight class... maybe not,.. but there is no comparing a 185lb Demsey to a 6'5" 240lb Klits,.. George Forman however would be a different case,.. By athletic do you mean "an impressive physical build"?? if so then I'll give that to KLits,.. but as far as athletic ability,.. Foreman wins by a mile,.. KLits never goes to the body,.. or bends at the waist to throw hooks and upercuts,..(too busy keeping that head out of harms way) he's strickly a one two-guy(,.. very technical,..very stiff and straight up,.. those knees hardly bend,.... but when faced with opponents who are more Savage than Science,.. Klits falls apart if he's forced out of his comfort zone of moving cautiously around the ring with his arms out streched to keep guys at a bay... I think Foreman would back him up in the ugliest way,.. and tee off once he ran out of realestate,.. just my humble opinion,..I think Wlad is much better than Vitali,...who,.. looked like he was on verge of gassing out against Valdez in one of the slowest fights of the century,.. he had man boobs and looked as sluggish,.. as Butterbean after 4 rounds... he once had exceptional skills,.. but now he's just a target to be exposed,.. If I were Haye or Areola,.. or Johnson,.. I'd target the 38 yr old Vitali first,.. the fact that the older slower,.. softer hitting version of Vitali can rise to the top of the heavyweights after sitting on the sidelines,.. for 3 or 4 years,.. show's how soft the heavyweights are,.. But Wlad is still doing himself proud regardless,.. if he can stifle the charge of Areola,.. and maybe a couple others (Dremenko,. Johnson etc),.. then I'll have to take my hat off to him...
Friday Jun 26, 2009 04:26:53 PM
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Boboy :
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By the way, Boxrec admits to not having complete or always accurate info, dr3r42. I see that you are depending on Boxrec. Joe Louis and other boxers of that era would get knocked, but the ref didn't give them an eight count.
Friday Jun 26, 2009 04:45:40 PM
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75earth:
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Interesting post I have been reading these boards for at least many yrs although I never commented. One factor that must be considered in this discussion is gloves. In the day you were forced to engage in battle at some point period with 6 to 8 ounce gloves back in the day it is clear to me the Klitchkos would not be able to beat a vast array of hall of famers night in night out not possible. To much pressure to much agression andd the klitchkos cower from these to elements of fighting that were prevalent since boxing beginnings. Wrestling rabbit punches. mauling holding elbowing back hand jabs. Trust me no damn way impossible.
Friday Jun 26, 2009 05:58:15 PM
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dr3r42:
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If you'll read my post, I said he was knocked down twice in the 8th round by Marciano -"and twice in the 8th against MARCIANO- as an old man" The Ring scandle was after Fleischer's death, not that that would matter, since we are talking about Joe Louis' record, not fixing a boxing tournament. We argued whether Joe Louis was knocked down NINE times BEFORE he won the title. I provided evidence and you went nuts. Since he won the title on June 22, 1937 : I have him twice against Schmelling and once against Braddock- you need to find 6 more in your film library (even if you add the 4 other guys that you don't remember) you ain't getting to 9. Then you said he was down 17 X's .... Not that any of this matters, but it tells me you'd rather BS than be proven wrong. There are a ton of historians on this site and fans who know that Louis was never knocked down by Charles, John Henry Lewis, or Sharkey, but what difference would facts make. You can do all the name calling you want, but at least I have some self-control, and at least I can admit when I am WRONG
Friday Jun 26, 2009 05:59:09 PM
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Fe'Roz :
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Having grown up with Ali...a hero to most of his generation, racists aside....the standard is high. We watched....I should say the world watched....every fight. Whether you rooted for or against him, whether you loved boxing or were indifferent...you watched. That fact alone made him so special it is hard for anyone to compare. Then along came Frazier....a hard working, body slamming, left hooking, bobbin' n' weavin' fighting machine. A thing of raw beauty to watch if you love great fighters. Foreman emerged as a Giant....with power that any sane warrior should fear. Ali took them both on....after winning and defending his crown against Sonny Liston no less.....and beat Joe twice and Big George badly. If the Man never did another thing....I think that makes him the incomparable GOAT. We who loved the game respected Holmes but waited for a Messiah. His name: Iron Mike Tyson. Everything about him said 'Baddest man on the planet'. He was a star of LeBron/Jordan dimension. He was the re-birth of Boxing as a must-watch sport. And then he toppled. The reasons don't matter.....but Boxing has never been the same in the Heavyweight division. I'm sorry some of us missed that era....but if you had you would know before you touched any key in response, that Evander for all his heart, Lewis and Vlad are not remotely comparable. The latter two fought to survive and thrive after discovering the hard way.....getting KOed in ring....that giving 100% meant losing giving back a percentage. Their fights are unmemorable. Ask your co-workers. Ask your relatives. As your neighbor. Lennox wah'. Vladimir who'. One day hopefully One Man will enter the arena....the Child of Muhammed, the Son of Mike.....and take boxing back to the heights of primal drama that it deserves.
Friday Jun 26, 2009 07:28:17 PM
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the Roast:
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@ brownsugar, Wow look what you started!! I agree with what you said above about Buster. He was most definately on fire that night in Tokyo. Maybe he could have beaten anyone in that moment in time. As a Holyfield guy, I was worried about that fight coming up with Buster. As it turned out, not much to worry about. We know what happened. I still think Tyson would have had one hell of a time reaching the chin of Lennox Lewis. Lewis got alot better after Manny Stewart took over as his trainer. We'll never know.
Friday Jun 26, 2009 08:55:48 PM
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Radam G, a humble PacManite shouting 4 da last time about JACK:
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dr3r42, you are good at name calling and rationalizing. I will always admit when I am wrong in a New York minute. You are into mythology of boxing instead of the reality of it. YUP! A DEATH made The RIng Magazine unreliable. Just stay tuned to YouTube while I slowly but surely keep putting old classic bouts and hard-to-find one on it. I'm so tried of the fibs about yesteryears' fighters and bums. Holla!
Friday Jun 26, 2009 09:09:34 PM
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Radam G, a humble PacManite just wondering about da ______:
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There are "tons" of cockroaches and bums on this site and in this Universe. Just wait until the Don get ahold of you arrogrant phonies, dr3442. Ezzard Charles was not the greatest lightheavy or cruiserweight to ever live neither, but people keep classifying him as that. Joe Louis got his arse drop a lot times, and the ref didn't count it as a legal knockdown. That sucka got dropped twice by Charles. Go away and leave me along. You are just one of those new cockroaches up in this Universe that Don is rappin' about. Holla!
Friday Jun 26, 2009 09:19:53 PM
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dr3r42:
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I've got Dial up internet, so it takes me 5 hours to watch a you tube fight, but I'll go to the library to watch it. If you put on Louis getting dropped some of those guys we argued about, I'll apologize immediately to you. I was going to buy Patterson-Moore and Patterson-Maxim from a fight dealer, but they were highlights. Take care.
Friday Jun 26, 2009 09:25:26 PM
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the Roast:
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@Fe'ROZ...really enjoyed your last post. I really get the Jordan comparison. I'm from Chicago and I saw the Jordan era from start to finish. It was easy for me to go to as many Bulls games as I wanted. No wife and kids, no house, a young man having fun all the time. I never took my eyes off Jordan, on defence, moving without the ball, in the timeouts, everything. It was the perfect time in my life to watch this all time great do his thing. Sounds like you with Ali. I respect what you say. As far as Tyson goes, he was like a comet. Fast rise and fast fall. He didnt walk that straight path. Holyfied could have been his Frazier. Again, we'll never know.
Friday Jun 26, 2009 09:33:08 PM
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brownsugar:
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Wow Fe'Roz that post wasmore inspirational than a presidential campaign speech,.. and a lot of truth in it..
Friday Jun 26, 2009 09:40:56 PM
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brownsugar:
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well said Roast,.. I think we can at least agree that it would have been a much better fight if the circumstances were more favorable,.. Tyson was quite done by the time they fought,.. but you make some valid points... well,... almost time to go to work,.. pc out...
Friday Jun 26, 2009 09:43:46 PM
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dr3r42:
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Yeah, put Ezzard Charles' two knockdowns of Joe Louis on You Tube- I want to see that. Since I just watched that boring fight a few minutes ago. No knockdowns, no slips, no referee's saving Joe- nothing. Of course I could be the one that's the fool for actually thinking "is this guy right, did I miss something in that fight" But hey, you got me to waste 45 minutes by watching that borefest. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.
Friday Jun 26, 2009 10:21:48 PM
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Bruce :
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When i see someone talking about Tyson vs Lewis considering that when Tyson fought Lewis he was a washed up fighter,it's pretty obvious that this man is biased or he doesn't know nothing about boxing.
Wladimir Klitschko defeated some guy named Ruslan Chagaev Saturday in Germany to retain his IBF and WBO titles. Klitschko also won The Ring magazine belt for recognition as the best heavyweight in the game.
Big deal.
The heavyweight division normally carries boxing but fighters from lower weight divisions are running the sport.
Klitschko is insignificant in this sport. Yes, he can draw 61,000 into an arena in Germany -- as was the case on Saturday -- but what can he do in boxing cities such as Las Vegas and New York, where the real fight fans are?
He's fought only once in the U.S. since 2007 and that's due to money. He can make more overseas than he can in the United States.
Why?
Because he doesn't wow anybody in the fight game.
Klitschko hasn't proven he's marketable in the U.S., because of the fighters he meets are either not as talented or past their prime. The last real opponent he defeated was Samuel Peter in 2005 and Peter had to wait just to get that title shot.
You can say his win over Chris Byrd was legit in 2006, but by that point, Byrd's career had seen better days. He beat an overrated Calvin Brock in 2006 as well. Klitschko's three losses were all by knockout to a bunch of no-names in the sport.
Klitshcko is not Lewis,he is a guy who fought against B-fighters or washed up fighters and Chagaev is indeed a B-fighter.
Nothing new!
He needs to beat something real like Arreola then we will see.
Saturday Jun 27, 2009 05:08:51 AM
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Bruce :
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When i see someone talking about Tyson vs Lewis considering that when Tyson fought Lewis he was a washed up fighter,it's pretty obvious that this man is biased or he doesn't know nothing about boxing.
Wladimir Klitschko defeated some guy named Ruslan Chagaev Saturday in Germany to retain his IBF and WBO titles. Klitschko also won The Ring magazine belt for recognition as the best heavyweight in the game.
Big deal.
The heavyweight division normally carries boxing but fighters from lower weight divisions are running the sport.
Klitschko is insignificant in this sport. Yes, he can draw 61,000 into an arena in Germany -- as was the case on Saturday -- but what can he do in boxing cities such as Las Vegas and New York, where the real fight fans are?
He's fought only once in the U.S. since 2007 and that's due to money. He can make more overseas than he can in the United States.
Why?
Because he doesn't wow anybody in the fight game.
Klitschko hasn't proven he's marketable in the U.S., because of the fighters he meets are either not as talented or past their prime. The last real opponent he defeated was Samuel Peter in 2005 and Peter had to wait just to get that title shot.
You can say his win over Chris Byrd was legit in 2006, but by that point, Byrd's career had seen better days. He beat an overrated Calvin Brock in 2006 as well. Klitschko's three losses were all by knockout to a bunch of no-names in the sport.
Klitshcko is not Lewis,he is a guy who fought against B-fighters or washed up fighters and Chagaev is indeed a B-fighter.
Nothing new!
He needs to beat something real like Arreola then we will see.
Saturday Jun 27, 2009 06:56:32 AM
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Bruce :
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When i see someone talking about Tyson vs Lewis considering that when Tyson fought Lewis he was a washed up fighter,it's pretty obvious that this man is biased or he doesn't know nothing about boxing.
Wladimir Klitschko defeated some guy named Ruslan Chagaev Saturday in Germany to retain his IBF and WBO titles. Klitschko also won The Ring magazine belt for recognition as the best heavyweight in the game.
Big deal.
The heavyweight division normally carries boxing but fighters from lower weight divisions are running the sport.
Klitschko is insignificant in this sport. Yes, he can draw 61,000 into an arena in Germany -- as was the case on Saturday -- but what can he do in boxing cities such as Las Vegas and New York, where the real fight fans are?
He's fought only once in the U.S. since 2007 and that's due to money. He can make more overseas than he can in the United States.
Why?
Because he doesn't wow anybody in the fight game.
Klitschko hasn't proven he's marketable in the U.S., because of the fighters he meets are either not as talented or past their prime. The last real opponent he defeated was Samuel Peter in 2005 and Peter had to wait just to get that title shot.
You can say his win over Chris Byrd was legit in 2006, but by that point, Byrd's career had seen better days. He beat an overrated Calvin Brock in 2006 as well. Klitschko's three losses were all by knockout to a bunch of no-names in the sport.
Klitshcko is not Lewis,he is a guy who fought against B-fighters or washed up fighters and Chagaev is indeed a B-fighter.
Nothing new!
He needs to beat something real like Arreola then we will see.
Saturday Jun 27, 2009 07:44:26 AM
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Anonymous user:
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Arreola is fat and slow as molases. Eithier klitschko would kill him.
Saturday Aug 8, 2009 12:20:26 AM
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You Have To Take The Test To Be Called The Best
"People can say whatever they like about Floyd Mayweather Jr....and they will....but they can never say the man challenges himself to be the best." ---TSS All-Star reader El Feroz weighs in on who he thinks is at blame for the Manny-Money negotiation flameout
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