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| Lewis had a fair share of detractors in his prime. Too soft, not enough of a finishing instinct, etc. Looking back, though, he looks a bit better, doesn't he? |
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Lennox Lewis: Yes -- He's An All-Time Great
By Frank Lotierzo
This June 13, former heavyweight champion Lennox Lewis 41-2-1 (32 KOs) will be inducted into the International Boxing Hall of Fame. As most know, a fighter doesn't have to be an all-time great in order to be voted into the IBHOF today. In reality the IBHOF needs to bring fighters in for the induction weekend in order to help raise money. The best way to do that is to elect fighters who are still alive or in good health who can come in for the ceremonial weekend and mix with boxing fans. The thing that befuddles me about the IBHOF is, how can Ingemar Johansson be in and Lupe Pintor isn't?
Regardless of the Johansson/Pintor contradiction, Lennox Lewis is a no brainer when it comes to having Hall-Of-Fame credentials. When evaluating a fighter’s place in history you must wait until their career has concluded. Lewis is a perfect example of that. After seeing Oliver McCall knock him out in the second round back in 1994, never for a fleeting moment did I think Lewis was one of the greats, as I do today.
In the early seventies it was common to read in boxing publications how Ali, Frazier and Foreman were certainly not the equals of Dempsey, Louis and Marciano. By the early eighties that changed and the three greats from the seventies joined their contemporaries from the old school among the greatest of the greats. Today, we have the wisdom of hindsight to see just how great Ali, Frazier and Foreman were.
The same thing applies to Lennox Lewis circa 1993-2003. When looking at the current landscape of the heavyweight division, how dominant would Lennox Lewis, Evander Holyfield, Mike Tyson and Riddick Bowe be if they were in their prime and fighting in 2009? In regards to Lennox Lewis, it doesn't take someone with a high boxing aptitude to realize that he would be an overwhelming favorite over the best heavyweights in the world today if he were fighting and in his prime.
Why Lewis Is An All Time Great:
What made Lennox Lewis formidable inside the ring was he was pretty versatile for a fighter who stood 6'5" weighing between 227-245 at his best. Under Emanuel Steward he learned how to use his height and reach. Lewis forced his opponents to adjust to him and what he was trying to do. Lennox was a boxer-puncher and only Joe Louis and Sonny Liston were better fighting basically the same style. His left jab was a terrific weapon. It was long and powerful which enabled him to set up his big right hand. Other than Louis, Liston, Ali and Holmes it's hard to name another heavyweight who owned a better jab than Lennox Lewis.
His right hand carried one punch knockout power, and his right-uppercut was a tremendous set-up punch that he could deliver inside or from center ring. Lewis had two handed power and improved as a boxer dramatically as his career progressed. He was also equally capable of leading and dictating the tempo from behind his jab or he could move back and counter. And to his credit Lewis totally shut down attacking swarmers Tommy Morrison, David Tua and Mike Tyson. All three of them were legitimate like-takers, yet not one of them could get near Lewis or get past his jab.
At his best Lewis proved he was capable of beating the best of his era by out-boxing or out-fighting them. Once he learned how to box and set up his power he was almost unbeatable when he showed up in top shape with an interest in the outcome of the fight.
When it comes to accomplishments the former Olympic gold medalist compiled an overwhelming body of work as a pro. For starters he never ducked any fighter during his career, yet was ducked by two of the best fighters of his era, Riddick Bowe and Mike Tyson.
Critics will say that during his title tenure he was stopped twice while at or near his prime. Granted -- being stopped by one punch twice gives the impression that Lennox wasn't the most durable heavyweight around. And despite neither Oliver McCall or Hasim Rahman scoring any other one-punch knockouts in their career over elite opposition, they were big heavyweights who could punch. On top of that Lewis didn't regard McCall as a threat going into their fight and he was rehearsing for his part in the movie Oceans Eleven while training for Rahman.
If getting stopped while being close to his prime omits him from HOF/ATG status, then Joe Frazier, George Foreman and Mike Tyson who were stopped in their prime should also be excluded. The difference regarding Lewis is he avenged both of his defeats by stopping his former conquer. And like Gene Tunney and Rocky Marciano, he never met a fighter he couldn't beat, and Lewis was only off his feet twice in his career. When he came to the ring in top shape, which was most of the time, Lewis was never stopped or dropped.
Lewis also fought outstanding opposition and it can be argued that only Muhammad Ali and Evander Holyfield met and defeated better fighters than Lewis. Adding to that Lewis only fought four opponents who weighed less than 220 pounds during the last 10 years of his career, not to mention many of those fighters during that period could really punch. Lewis is one of five former lineal champs to lose the title and then regain it, joining Floyd Patterson, Muhammad Ali, George Foreman and Evander Holyfield. And to top it off, only Louis, Ali and Holmes have won more heavyweight title bouts than did Lennox Lewis.
Lewis retired from boxing as champion and beat the fighter (Vitali Klitschko) who was perceived to be his biggest challenge and successor in his last fight. Only four greats in boxing history, Gene Tunney, Rocky Marciano, Carlos Monzon and Lennox Lewis retired as champion and never came back to suffer a humiliating defeat to a fighter they would've taken apart during their prime. And Lewis didn't just beat Klitschko, he did it when he was the least prepared and heaviest for any other fight in his career.
The reality is Lewis retired mentally as a fighter after he stopped Mike Tyson a year before he fought Klitschko. At the time of their fight Klitschko was young and hungry and fighting to make his mark, and Lewis viewed Vitali as a cumbersome robot who he couldn't miss with his eyes closed. Obviously, Lewis was wrong and Klitschko's awkward style troubled him, at least in the early going of the fight. However, Lewis won it fair and square. The bottom line is Lennox threw a punch with the intention of doing damage and it opened a cut over Vitali's left eye. They continued to fight and the cut got worse and led to the fight being stopped. Once the fight was halted the scorecards meant nothing in that it was a scheduled 12 round fight, not a six. Lewis gets full credit for the win and retired at the perfect time, being that he left boxing with his health, wealth and respect.
Calling Lewis a Hall-Of-Famer is a no brainer. Some may dispute his worthiness as an all-time great, I'm just not one of them. As it's been the case with Larry Holmes in recent years, Lewis will gain supporters the more his body of work and what he brought to the ring as a fighter is examined.
As of this writing I can't think of 10 former all-time great heavyweight champs who put together a better resume and who were as formidable inside the ring as a fighter as Lennox Lewis was at his peak. Along with that, I can't think of 10 past former greats who I'd say would be a definite favorite beyond a doubt to beat Lewis on his best night.
Lennox Lewis the Hall-Of-Famer, yes. Lennox Lewis an all-time great heavyweight champion, same answer!
Last week my colleague and friend, Bernard Fernandez, did a one on one interview with Lennox Lewis. Look for Bernie's interview to be posted shortly. I'm sure the interview will shed new light on Lennox and his feelings on being inducted into the IBHOF. Feel free to email me at GlovedFist@Gmail.com with feedback or tips.
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Dave w:
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great stuff Frank...as usual
Monday Jun 8, 2009 03:53:31 PM
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rudy:
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He fought everyone at HW and beat them all. Sure fire HOF, Absolutely!!
Monday Jun 8, 2009 04:40:58 PM
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MisterLee:
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Cool article.
Monday Jun 8, 2009 04:41:53 PM
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MisterLee:
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Rough quote: post tua fight: Announcer: "So did Tua have any problems? What happened with him?" Lewis: "Lennox Lewis happened." 'Nuff said.
Monday Jun 8, 2009 04:42:56 PM
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ali:
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He is a all-time great sometimes he would put you to sleep during fights but he did beat every body he fought I just wish he would have fought Bowe. I know the rumor was Bowe was scared to fight him and I do think that was true but that the only big name he did'nt fight in his era was him.
Monday Jun 8, 2009 05:05:54 PM
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ultimoshogun:
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Hall of famer for sure. The 90's was a pretty good era for heavyweight boxing and he emerged as the best of the pack. It is a shame we never got to see him and Bowe settle there feud in the ring though.
Monday Jun 8, 2009 05:38:22 PM
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Jamie:
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Lewis, Tyson and Holyfield all peaked at different times. By the time Lewis faced Holyfield and Tyson he was in his prime and they were both well past theirs. A prime Tyson or Holyfield vs a prime Lewis would have been the heavyweight boxing fans dream come true! It's a shame Riddick Bowe chickened out out fighting Lewis... that would have been a classic!
Monday Jun 8, 2009 06:12:02 PM
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Russo:
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Gene Tunney was beat by Harry Greb(Tunney no win over Greb), but Greb was a stand-out fighter. Lewis reminds me of Hopkins of not playing the others fighters games, he sticks to his game plan and collects W's. I do like Lewis style and KO power better than Professor Hopkins though. Harry Greb would destroy Hopkins at Middle or Light Heavy.
Monday Jun 8, 2009 07:15:18 PM
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Jeff Meyers:
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Great article. I also recently wrote an article praising Lennox -- he belongs on any list of top ten heavyweights of all time, IMHO. For those interested, I echo Frank's sentiments at Boxing Confidential (June 3, 2009, entitled "Why I Miss Lennox Lewis, Why You Should Also").
Monday Jun 8, 2009 07:19:39 PM
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James:
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I agree with most of what you write, but "If getting stopped while being close to his prime omits him from HOF/ATG status, then Joe Frazier, George Foreman and Mike Tyson who were stopped in their prime should also be excluded." is very misleading... only Tyson was stopped by a nobody who only had a puncher's chance -- Foreman and Frazier were only stopped by other hall of famers. And it happened to Lewis not once, but twice.
Nevertheless, Lewis did beat the best HWs of his day, so like Larry Holmes, deserves his place in the HoF.
Monday Jun 8, 2009 07:35:48 PM
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Larry:
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Lennox Lewis, the most OVERRATED champion in heavyweight history. He couldn't even take out Holyfield, a BUM at that point in his career (the Ruiz era). Please, size was all he had. No skill, no guts, no chin, and no intangible strengths. Size alone in a bogus era is why this article exists. Sorry guys, the truth hurts.
Monday Jun 8, 2009 08:41:12 PM
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brownsugar:
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there is no question that Lewis was very good,.. but I remember Tyson and Holyfield chasing him for years only to be granted a fight when both were on the downside of their careers,. I thought Holyfield beat him in the first fight,.. and Tyson was a mere shell of himself by the time he got in the ring with him.... Riddick bowe who was stopped by Lewis in the Olympics,.. (He was sadly outclassed and himiliated) seemed like he had the fear of God put into him whenever Lewis's name was mentioned..........but after Holyfield and Tyson faded away,,. Lewis emerged as the best Heavyweight left...
Monday Jun 8, 2009 09:08:36 PM
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Qarl:
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Lennox Lewis in the Hall of Fame? Are you kidding me? The guy was knocked out, in the prime of his prime, by Oliver McCall. Yes, Oliver McCall. He was also knocked out by Hasim Rahman. Yes, Hasim Rahman. Are you joking? Beating Francois Botha and Zelco Malcovich (sic) does NOT make a HOF'er. And spare me the excuses about Oceans whatever and his partying it up prior to McCall. Beating Tyson in Memphis meant NOTHING. Iron Mike was/is the first to tell you that he was finished after Douglas. That was more than a decade later. He stunk the joint up against Holyfield, and went LIFE AND DEATH against Ray Mercer, who just happened to get his a$$ kicked by Kimbo Slice. Yes, Kimbo Slice. LL belongs AT BEST as an honorary mention decent heavyweight in a depleted era where nobody fought one another. My Lord, his best victory was against an AIDS-riddled Tommy Morrison. Lennox Lewis is tops a top 200 heavyweight, and today couldn't compete with the bottom of the barrel.
Monday Jun 8, 2009 09:20:58 PM
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dr3r42:
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Tyson and Hollyfield "chasing" Lennox ? Look at the timeline with Tyson. Lennox Lewis became a contender when he destroyed Razor Ruddick on Holloween night 1992- Mike Tyson was in jail in 1992. Tyson got out of jail in 1995, fought a few tune ups and won the title back from Bruno in 1996. He then defended his title against Evander in November 1996. Tyson's people thought that Evander was shot (had to get clearence from the Mayo clinic just to fight) and was an easy big money fight for Tyson (as opposed to Lewis). Evander stopped him. Tyson then fought a rematch against Evander in June of 1997, after biting off Evander's ear, Tyson was suspended until 1999. After coming back from his suspension, he got suspended again for testing positive for weed after beating Golatta in 2000. Then after fighting a tune up against Neilson in Denmark, he fought Lennox. My question, when was Lennox ducking Tyson ? Mike was out of the ring and in jail from about 1991-1995, he then elected to defend against Evander in 1996, got suspended until 1999, then he got suspended again in 2000.
Monday Jun 8, 2009 09:33:01 PM
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deep fist:
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Great piece,with a couple of sharpeners. Firstly, Gene Tunney did get some wins over Greb, but had two no-contests(Tommy Laughlin and Jack Renault) and drew with KO Jaffe(unavenged).Strike Tunney and add Ingo Johansson to the" beat everyone they met" list with Marciano and Lennox. Say what you might about McCall and Rahman,they could always punch like hell- and are still arguably(to HBO) more viable in their 40's than Ruslan Changaev.
Monday Jun 8, 2009 09:33:22 PM
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dr3r42:
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Another point : you think Hollyfield beat him in their first fight ? That "draw" was one of the worst decisions in the history of boxing (which is saying a lot). It created such a stink that there were demands for investigations after it. Maybe you and Eugena Williams had Hollyfield winning, but that's about it.
Monday Jun 8, 2009 09:36:57 PM
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brownsugar:
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dr3r42,.. maybe I should have put it another way,.. Lewis side stepped both guys IMHO untill they were both on the downside of their careers,.. folks will argue that Lewis wasn't in his prime,.. that he was more like the Andre Berto of his generation and thats ok,.. he waited untill his time had come before stepping up,.. a good managerial decision,.. but from a competitive perspective I found Lewis extremely frustrating to follow with all these good heavies and Lewis was trapped in his own personal bubble not fighting Holyfield untill a full 3 years after Holy first called him out,..,.. ( and Tyson wasn't even fit to be in the ring by the time they fought) But I'll say this.....he was smart and had no problem waiting for good opportunities ...I also think Holyfield did beat him once out of their 2 fights,.. that's just the way I see it.
Monday Jun 8, 2009 10:00:15 PM
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Uruk-Hai:
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To the threatstarter and the TSS website writers as a whole. YOu don't need to post this as it will prolly reveal double standards on your part. You people said Lewis didn't duck anyone which makes a good case for being a GREAT. I won't argue with that. How about Fraudweather fighting Baldo, Gatti and Judah instead of Margarito, Mosley, Kostya and Cotto. Does that mean "Great" to you people seeing as you're all nuts about Fraudweather. Double standards. Typical.
Monday Jun 8, 2009 11:59:05 PM
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Zack D:
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I think Lewis is definitely one of the all time greats. It annoys me that people even debate it. He certainly was not the greatest champion of all time, in that he really didn't capture the public's imagination the way some of his predecessors did - at least not in the U.S. But in all seriousness, he could be #1 on the all time great list if it was based on head to head match ups. People can talk size all they want, but it counts. Shaq certainly is nowhere near the most skilled center of all time - maybe not even in the top 100. But if you look at the entire arsenal, no center matches up with him well. Not in his prime. And by that token, he's the best. Same with Lennox. In my mind, the only heavyweight in history I'd give the edge to against him is Ali. And it's no cakewalk. Anyway, some of the posts here are laughable. I mean the guy who said he was all size and no skill??? Please. The jab alone would have given anyone fits. And as far as Tyson and Holyfield "chasing" him??? Ludicrous. Holyfield would have been a better matchup in his prime, but I don't think he ever had the tools to beat Lennox. And Tyson? No chance. They could have fought ten times and it would have been the same result: Tyson getting KTFO. The only gripe I have here is about the Klitschko fight. Larry went out of his way to paint a pretty picture for Lennox here, but the facts don't lie. As far as him being out of shape, that was way exaggerated. It was Klitschko who took the fight on short notice, when Kirk Johnson backed out. And he had Lennox out on his feet in the second round. You can say Lewis won "fair and square", but the whole thing was pretty iffy. I'm a Lennox fan. It's great to see a fighter smart enough to go out on top. But there should have been a rematch. He said he'd give Vitali one and he never made good on that. Instead, he took great interest in Vitali's opponents; predicting they'd all beat him, and in certain cases even getting personally involved. Definitely not Lennox's finest moments. He did open the cut on Vitali with a punch, but he was behind 6-4 on every judge's scorecard when they stopped it. He was also gassed. Prior to the fight, he said the Klitschkos "aren't tough enough", but Vitali took his best shots - including arguably the best uppercut Lennox ever threw- and he was still coming. Lennox would have needed 5 of the next 6 rounds to win that fight. And I just don't think there was any chance of that. His competive spirit should have made him take the rematch and settle the score. IMO this the only real blemish on his record. Against Rahman and McCall, the rematches showed how much better he was then them. He should have wanted to prove the same with Klitschko. Nonetheless, I'm glad he's in the HOF. Truly deserving fighter. And definitely one of the greats.
Tuesday Jun 9, 2009 12:01:28 AM
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TOMMY:
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DID SOME IDIOT SAY HOLYFIELD BEAT LEWIS THE 1ST TIME? LMFAO! 1 OF THE WORST DECISIONS MAYBE IN THE HISTORY OF BOXING SO THAT KEYBOARD WARRIOR CLEARLY HAS NO CASE, as for any haters who think lewis was not an all time great then name me another heavyweight who defeated every single man he ever stepped in the ring with???? only 1 man did that named rocky marciano, lewis fought great comp neva ducked any1 and evenged both his losses and his bullshit draw, he is not only 1 of the most under rated heavies bit fighters in the history of the sport, he was a true heavyweight champion and a dam dominent 1 at that who could out box any man but could also take you out quick if he wanted to ( golota, grant, botha) he never got the respect that he deserved during his career and by some still now because he was not american, just the same as the klichkos who will be written about 5 years after they retire from the sport just the same as lewis is today, lennox gives any heavyweaght that ever lived hell in the ring and is an all time top 6 heavy
Tuesday Jun 9, 2009 12:08:11 AM
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Thegreatestofalltime10:
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Mike Tyson would have beaten any heavyweight in their prime in any era except for Muhammad Ali, which would have been a draw or a KO victory by Tyson if he would have gotten a good punch in because Tyson had the power of a heavyweight and the speed of a middleweight in his prime. A prime Lewis would not have lasted 3 rounds with a prime Tyson. He was just took quick and his head movement was superior. The head movement and the hand speed was gone when they fought. Tyson fighting Lewis was like Calzalghe fighting a way-past-his-prime Roy Jones Jr. A prime RJJ would have destroyed Calzalghe.
Tuesday Jun 9, 2009 01:05:07 AM
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eric :
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johnson, dempsey, tunney, louis, marciano, ezzard charles, patterson, ali, frazier, norton, shavers, tyson, foreman, shoot throw in a young archie moore--IN THEIR PRIME, NO GREAT GETS KOed twice by chumps. IN THEIR PRIME.....
Tuesday Jun 9, 2009 01:19:06 AM
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Alokwe:
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This is a great analysis of Lennox' career but I take exception to the "arguable" point of Holyfield meeting and beating better opposition, than Lewis? Is that a joke?
Tuesday Jun 9, 2009 01:43:28 AM
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Alokwe:
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And another thing (this really does bother me about fight fans), a fighter losing in his supposed prime is no sin. What most people forget here is fighters tend to get matched very carefully on their way to the title and this is the main reason most of them are undefeated when making their first challenge, it isn't neccesarily because they are very good at this point. ............Once you pick up the title, it gets harder to pick and choose "safe" opponents and theoretically tou end fighting guys who are inspired by the prize at stake- the title. That motivation can make most fighters up to 50% better on the night....Losing to them isn't such a bad thing!.....Another thing, people should stop talking about ducking here, unfortunately Lewis, Holyfield and Tyson all peaked at different times despite being contemporaries, plus Tyson's enforced (and other times voluntary) inactivity did nothing to help the matchups we'd have loved to see.
Tuesday Jun 9, 2009 01:54:23 AM
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Shep:
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I'd put him in the Hall of Fame, but only because the HOF has been watered down to an extraordinary extent. I would liken him to Arturo Gatti, or Nasim Hamed, both who deserve to go in, but only because Canastota invites virtually everyone in these days. Lennox was a long time amateur and was beaten soundly in 1984 (I believe Tyrell Biggs gave him hell). He won the gold medal in 1988 after beating a chunky Riddick Bowe in what was an early stoppage. Professionally, he fought safety first and avoided everyone until the brand name guys (Holyfield, Tyson) were empty vessels. Along the way, he got KO'd by a very undistinguished sparring partner, Oliver McCall, and was again KO'd in sensational fashion by another pedestrian heavyweight, Hasim Rahman. He got a gift decision against an out of shape and over the hill Ray Mercer. A decending into dementia Frank Bruno beat him up for several rounds. His best wins were as follows: (1) Razor Ruddock (though remember, all the fight had been taken out of Ruddock by Tyson at the time) (2) Francois Botha (a brutal KO) (3) Tommy Morrison (although Morrison was undergoing significant health and personal issues at the time, namely HIV+ and drugs) (4) Henry Akinwande (a snoozer of a bout, but a win nonetheless) (5) Oliver McCall 2 (a very nice win). He goes into the HOF, but grudgingly.
Tuesday Jun 9, 2009 05:24:58 AM
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Peter Egley:
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"On top of that Lewis didn't regard McCall as a threat going into their fight and he was rehearsing for his part in the movie Oceans Eleven while training for Rahman." These are ridiculous excuses to be made for Lennox. Both McCall and Rahman were solid heavyweights. The hall of fame stuff is something I don't really pay attention to, but yeah, Lewis was definitely cool. His showdown with Donovan "Razor" Ruddock was more of an awesome event than might be remembered. And Lewis totally neutralized the seemingly much-maligned but unfairly to me Tommy Morrison. And Vitali Klitschko seems to get a lot of attention for losing to Lewis. I unfortunately did not see the Holyfield matches, but even though I've not always been a fan of The Real Deal, Holyfield was the first guy to make Tyson quit. And that's not a knock on Tyson.
Tuesday Jun 9, 2009 06:01:54 AM
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Puncher:
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Lennox did not fight the top guys when he could have. He had a chance to fight Bowe and Holly and choose not to. Yes.....Tyson was out of the picture.
To me if he had fought those guys in their prime he would be to me a GREAT ONE!
Tuesday Jun 9, 2009 10:16:40 AM
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dr3r42:
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Riddick Bowe was the one who opted to throw his championship Belt in the trash rather than make his mandatory defense against Lennox Lewis. HE was the one who was STRIPPED of his TITLE for NOT FIGHTING Lennox Lewis. Nothing like revisionist history
Tuesday Jun 9, 2009 10:53:48 AM
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Radam G, a humble PacManite:
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Nice piece. I rate Lennox as about six for the great heavies ever. This giant of a guy got pretty sharp when he got with the great Manny Steward. Kudos to Lennox. My ranking: 1. Muhammad Ali 2. Joe Louis 3. Rocky Marciano 4. Tie between Rev. Big George Foreman and Jack Johnson 6. Lennox Lewis 7. Mike Tyson 8. Gene Tunney 9. Jack Demsey 10. Tie between Joe Frazier and Larry "The Easton Overrated Assassin" Holmes. Holla!
Tuesday Jun 9, 2009 10:56:55 AM
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#1 Pacfan "P4P Legend":
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Lennox Lewis is IBHOF'er in my book. I wish he would have stayed with us a little bit longer. He would have KOed the Klitschko brothers in 5. Watch out for Foreman III, he is coming.
Tuesday Jun 9, 2009 11:49:12 AM
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Alokwe:
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Shep, Riddick wasn't chunky when he faced Lewis in 1988, he was 216 to Lennox' 220lbs.
Tuesday Jun 9, 2009 12:58:11 PM
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deepwater:
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did someone actually rate lewis higher then dempsey? read your history books son.
Tuesday Jun 9, 2009 02:48:14 PM
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brownsugar:
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technically Lewis was good,.. he knew how to work the ebb and flow of a fight,.. in addition to having all the necessary tools,.. he could jab and box,.. he could slug and turn the fight into a war,.. at the time when Lewis was just starting to make his mark I considered just another cheeky Brit,.. many years after Lewis quit I began to appreciate him much more watching the ESPN classics is where my regard for him began to increase,.. he had heart and the ability to dig down like a true champ should,.. just wish he could have met Tyson or Holy when they were at their best... Riddick Bowe feared the ground Lewis walked on,.. couldn't be paid enough money to fight Lewis..... Something that puts a stain on Bowes legacy that can't be ignored,.(but Bowe vs Lennox would have been an epic battle if he had the heart to take the fight)..... I have him near the bottom of my top 10 right behind Liston...I'll aways wonder if he could have gotten past bangers like Ron Lyle or Earnie Shavers...but consider him even with Ken Norton.........And unlike most Heavies he left on top and transitioned into a nice postboxing career being a pretty good analyst and businessman,.. where in contrast,... Ken Norton was enticed into coming out of retirement one more time and getting savaged by Gerry Cooney...that has to count for something...
Tuesday Jun 9, 2009 03:22:06 PM
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dr3r42:
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You should read your history books. Jack Dempsey weighed around 185 llbs in his prime, which was the normal weight for a heavyweight from that era. Ever since Sonny Liston KO'ed Floyd Patterson, there hasn't been a heavyweight champion under 200 llbs- that's almost FIFTY YEARS (well, technically Neon Leon won one from a shot Ali, but if he's your only exception ...) Why ? Maybe because heavyweights from the 1960's on had size and skills. I mean you'd think that there would have been a freak of nature come along in the last fifty years and win the outright title- there are 6 Billion people on this planet. Before Liston, Light heavies and heavies used to be interchangable in the ratings, but the sub 190 llb heavyweight was phased out by the 1970's and a sub 200 llber was phased out by the 1980's and so on. And don't give me Jess Willard and Firpo were as big as Lewis. Firpo was considered a Giant at 6-2, 215 during hte 1920'[s and he almost KO'ed Dempsey. And Willard was a stiff, who hadn't even put on a pair of boxing gloves until he was 30 years old, and had been off 3 years before he got slaughtered by Demspey at age 37. So take off your rose-colored glasses when you read your history books. Dempsey and the fighters of that era were human beings like everyone else
Tuesday Jun 9, 2009 04:16:25 PM
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dr3r42:
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I meant to add that Dempsey was human like everyone else and he'd have the same problems that any 6-1, 185 llber would have with Lewis today. Mainly, the guy is 6-5, 240 and throws a piston jab with a devestating straight right hand behind it. And you'd be adding to Lewis' power since Dempsey would be coming forward. And even if Jack did get inside, odds are he'd be tied up or thrown back outside by the 240 llb Lewis. Of course I am sure the laws of physics only applies to the modern fighters- the fighters of yesteryear were super human. I am sure 5-7, 175 Sam Langford would destroy everyone today. Hell, why not favor Tommy Burns (another 5-7, 175 llber), he held the title for 3 years during the "Golden Era". Naa, why bother with height, reach, strength, power, ect. That only matters today
Tuesday Jun 9, 2009 04:26:21 PM
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ultimoshogun:
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I think Dempsey could have competed with Lewis. Jess Willard was about the same size as Lewis and Dempsey obliterated him. If Dempsey were to get in close and land that left hook of his Lewis would get KTFO! I've heard Burt Susar say in an interview that Dempsey had the best left hook of any era.
Tuesday Jun 9, 2009 04:43:12 PM
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owen swift:
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funny aout dempsey. he had more problems with guys his size than big guys whom were just targets for him; not for most other haevweights whom would get crushed as dempsey was a tough ,smart dude with a super punch for anyone his weight with good speed for his weight, also. but some guys his weight are very quick and harder to hit, as well as tough. i think dempsey would have koed lewis in one, but lewis would have have taken some of the fighters dempsey fought and hadtrouble getting to rather easily. lewis an all time great- has not the chin nor seems mentally not that tough.
Tuesday Jun 9, 2009 09:02:03 PM
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dr3r42:
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Burt Sugar ? Now there's an expert. The same guy who claimed that Sonny Liston was around 45 years old when he fought Ali. Again, Jess Willard was a stiff, who was 6-6, 250, which for that time would make him seem like he was 7-6. Jess Willard was almost 30 years old when he first boxed, he held his hands down to his waist and threw looping punches from left field. Also, he was 37 years old and hadn't had a fight in THREE YEARS before he fought Dempsey. Anyone who compares him to Lewis doesn't have a clue. Jack O'Halloran was also KO'ed by guys Dempsey's size, as was Primo Carnera, Abe Simon and other big stiffs. But unlike Lennox Lewis those guys had no skills. Just because those big, slow, stiffs got KO'ed by shorter fighters doesn't mean that a skilled guy like Lewis would.
Tuesday Jun 9, 2009 09:07:02 PM
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owen swift:
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i think dempsey would have clocked lewis in the first. at the same token, lewis should have been able to handle brennan well. lewis was a big target for freak puncher dempsey at 190. he was very unusal in that way and had 190 quickness. sometimes it just happens that way. lewis had a poor chin and could be hit both wel and had an overrated jab and punch. not an all time great and if he fought langford, langford wins 2 of 3
Tuesday Jun 9, 2009 09:14:40 PM
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thegreatestofalltime10:
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The two greatest of all time heavyweights in their prime is Muhammad Ali and Mike Tyson. These two heavyweights were unbeatable in their prime. I don't care what noone says, Buster Douglas beat a suicidal and undertrained Mike Tyson. There was no head movement, no strategy or plan. Tyson was looking for the one-punch knockout, a flaw that Kevin Rooney had taken out of his game plan. Before the Buster Douglas fight, Tyson had been knocked down by his sparring partner, Greg Page, was fresh off a very bad ending to his divorce of Robin Givens, ran into a tree and try to commit suicide two months before the fight, got rid of his corner after the Michael Spinks fight, and was a train wreck ready to happen. He start to decline in the first Frank Bruno fight, you could see the decline and the flaws starting to come out. It was just a matter of time. Point made is that I think Lennox Lewis is an all-time great. But when we talk about the greatest heavyweights in their prime, it's Ali and tyson all day. You ask any boxing fan, who they would have liked to see fight in their prime, 99% would tell you Muhammad Ali vs. Mike Tyson. It's hard to envision any of these men getting beat at their peak. I saw Mike Tyson hit somebody so hard that he was lifted off of his feet and land until the ropes and he looked like he barely hit him.
Tuesday Jun 9, 2009 10:40:49 PM
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brownsugar:
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Dempseys claim to fame is raising the popularity and public awareness of boxing,.. at his peak,.. Dempsey was one of the most popular and admired athletes of his Era,..he was the first man in history to generate a live Million dollar gate and was as beloved as Babe Ruth,..... towards the end of his career he was more of a celebrity entertainer than a boxer,.. appearing in films,.. TV,.. and hosting radio shows,.. far more often than he was in the ring,. I consider him one of boxings foremost pioneers,.. but to compare Dempsey to any heavyweight in the last 60 years is like comparing the Wright Brothers bi-wing air plane to a stealth bomber,.. no comparison...
Tuesday Jun 9, 2009 11:33:13 PM
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Rico Sioting of Philippines:
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In my own opinion, LL is very much qualified to be in the HOF 4 the reason he's beaten all the best heavyweights of his time..
Except 4 his last fight with Vitali...He wiggled when Vitali connected w/ a straight to the forehead...Lewis really FELT it..
thats why he considers retirement right after the fight...He can't really knock Vitali out...He gave his all but his all just can't put the Ukranian to the canvass....
Wednesday Jun 10, 2009 03:47:23 AM
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dr3r42:
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Tyson fans amaze me with their arguements and excuses. First it was "Cus Died"- I think it was after Tyson's 12th pro fight, as if he went downhill after that. Then it was "Kevin Rooney was no longer his trainer"- what was Kevin Rooney some "Trainer of Champions ?" -How many champions has Rooney produced since he was given Tyson - ZERO !! So much for that Rooney being some boxing guru arguement. Then it was "Mike was distracted by Robin Givens before the Buster Douglas fight" -What boxer or athlete hasn't been distracted by events in their lives before an event ? You don't think that Buster Douglass wasn't distracted ? His Mother DIED a week before the fight and he was 10,000 miles away from her when she died, you don't think that was a distraction ? Douglas also had a cold days before the fight, but he sucked it up and came into the ring that night. As far as Mike "not being in shape" - he had to be in shape in order to come back from the beating that Douglass gave him, in order to knock Douglass down late in the fight. "No head movement ? No combinations ? -that's crazy, Tyson fought the same way against Douglass as he's fought everyone else, like most swarmers, he had side to side headmovements and he threw his usual combinations (Right uppercut-left hook; right to body-left hook, ect). You guys act as though Tyson had some perfect defense- like most swarmers- he got hit before and after he fought Douglass. The excuses after his fight with Hollyfield are even better. "Mike was washed up"- What was Evander ? He was 4 years older than Mike and while Mike was in jail- not getting beat on, Evander was having 3 wars with Bowe, wars with Cooper, Mercer, Foreman and Moorer. Evander was deemed the one who was shot before that fight -he had to have clearnce from the Mayo Clinic for his heart condition before they'd even sanction the fight. If you think Tyson went downhill, try comparing the Evander who fought Moorer to the one who fought Bowe for the first time. I swear with Tyson, all the moons, stars, and planet have to be perfectly in alighnment for Mike's fights. He's not allowed any distractions (that other fighters have), everything has to be perfect. Last point- who was the greatest fighter Mike Tyson ever beat- Tony Tucker ? Now there's an all time great.
Wednesday Jun 10, 2009 11:56:05 AM
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dr3r42:
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Brownsuger, you hit it right on the head. The 1920's were really the first era when the average fan had cash to spend on recreation-so sports grew in popularity in leaps and bounds. You also had the media getting involved and hyping these athletes into larger than life legends. Babe Ruth, Red Grange, Dempsey, Bill Tilden in Tennis, Bobby Jones in golf- they all came from that decade (they're also all white- which should also tell you something about the era). When you add in the fact that most people view the past (or their parent's/grandparents past) through rose-colored glasses- these people become mythic figure- especially with subjective sports like boxing, baseball, football, ect. The only problem is when the sport for the past has something objective like a stop watch or a measuring tape- then their arguement is dead. They can't argue that "Jessie Owens would beat Ussain Bolt in the 100" because the stop watch proves otherwise. Same with Johnny Weismuller (Tarzan) another athlete from the 1920's, who once held as high of an esteem as the others. You can't argue that Weissmuller would beat Michael Phelps in a swimming event because Phelps would probably lap him. Trust me, if the stop watch hadn't been invented, these guys would be argueing that those athletes of the past were better than today.
Wednesday Jun 10, 2009 12:14:02 PM
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dr3r42:
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Here's another thing about everything being better in the past : (and I got most of my stuff from the old Ring Magazine). When Jack Dempsey was champion, everyone said, "he wouldn't have beaten Jim Jeffries". James J. Corbett, who had not only seen them all, but fought against most of the them as well, rated Dempsey about 5th or 6th all time (with most of Corbett's opponents being higher then Dempsey). He actually had Jack tied with Frank Slavin- some stiff bareknuckle fighter who was KO'ed a bunch of times. But he was from Corbett's era- so of course Corbett's going to view him differentley than he would Dempsey- who was in the present. When Joe Louis was champion, Jack Johnson said that not only would he'd have beaten Louis, but so would Jeffries, Tom Sharkey, Jeannette, Langford, Fitzsimmons, Jack O'Brien, ect. He also said that "today's (1940's) fighters sucked and that the fighters from his era "could do everything". Dempsey himself, questioned Louis' chin when Louis was champion- pointing out that Schmelling KO'ed him, and several other not so great fighters knocked Louis down (Tony Galento, Buddy Baer, ect). During the 1950's in an interview with Look Magazine, Gene Tunny said that Dempsey would have beaten Marciano, Charles, Walcott, Rex Layne, and LaStarza, "all on the same night". During Ali's reign in the 1960's the oldtimers (and contemperaries) trashed Ali- said he wasn't tough (later proved wrong) and that his contenders sucked. In the 1970's- the "Golden Age" of Heavyweights, there were all sorts of articles bad rapping the fighters of that era. They said "Ali's an old man and not a shadow of himself- yet he's the champ ?". During the 1990's, another era that is NOW viewed as a great era (it wasn't then) they used to write how bad the heavyweights were. They pointed out that the era was so bad that you had a 45 year old champion (Foreman) and 43 year old near champion (Holmes almost beat McCall for the title). Reading this stuff, you'd have to believe that the heavyweights have NEVER been any good and the ones from the past were always better.
Wednesday Jun 10, 2009 12:37:05 PM
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Anonymous user:
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Tyson's best win was over Larry Holmes, who in retrospect, was not far removed from his prime. Tyson stopped him like none other.
Wednesday Jun 10, 2009 12:48:23 PM
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dr3r42:
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Larry Holmes was not far removed from his prime when he fought Tyson in 1989 ? That's hilarious. Holmes was 39 freaking years old, had been retired for almost two years, and had 6 weeks of training when he steped into the ring with a 22 year -old Tyson. A prime Larry Holmes was probably between 1979 until his fight with Cooney in 1982, when he was between the ages of 29-32. The post-Cooney Holmes almost lost to a green Tim Witherspoon, who only had 15 pro fights (Holmes was 34). He also had trouble with Carl the Truth Williams (Holmes was 36) and he lost to Light Heavyweight Champion Michael Spinks- then after losing again to Spinks (at age 37) he retired. That's what's amazing about you guys- you guys claim that Tyson was shot when he lost to Buster Douglass when Tyson was the ripe old age of 23, but Holmes is close to his prime when he's 39 years old-unbelievable. I rest my case about Tyson fans.
Wednesday Jun 10, 2009 03:56:45 PM
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owen swift:
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well tyson has very recently come out to say dempsey was the best of all heavys
Wednesday Jun 10, 2009 04:43:15 PM
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the Roast:
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@ dr3r42 you are the man on this one! On fire! Much respect from the Roast!!!!
Wednesday Jun 10, 2009 10:05:48 PM
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Rico Sioting:
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If only Cus D'Amato is livin' today, MIKE TYSON is still the HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION OF THE WORLD....
Thursday Jun 11, 2009 11:21:01 AM
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Ryushinku:
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You broke it down beautifully, Mr. Lotierzo.
Lewis is truly one of the all-time heavyweight greats and this IBHOF induction is the seal on that. Having following his career for so many years, back to the Mason fight in early '91, through all the times when the critics were out in droves, to see him break through and achieve true greatness was a pleasure.
Saturday Jun 13, 2009 03:59:53 PM
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The Truth:
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Lewis only fought guys who were coming off a loss.
Sunday Jun 14, 2009 05:07:47 AM
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@ dr3r42 :
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Larry Holmes was not IN his prime when he fought Tyson, but he was not too far from it. I believe they fought in January 1988. And remember, after Tyson destroyed him, Larry would fight on for another decade, with a notable win over a prime Ray Mercer and a close fight with a prime Evander Holyfield. So again, the Tyson destruction of Holmes was a very good win, as nobody disposed of him in that kind of fashion, even years later against top opposition.
Sunday Jun 14, 2009 07:39:03 PM
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dr3r42:
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Anyone, and this would include Larry Holmes himself, would tell you that Larry Holmes' prime was from 1979-1982. If you can't tell the difference between that Holmes (the 29 year old) and the one who struggled against David Bey, Witherspoon, The Truth Williams, and Michael Spinks, then I don't know what to tell you- then again, you're a Tyson fan .... Larry Holmes had been retired and out of the ring for almost two years, he had 6 weeks of training with no tune fights or anything (not that they would have done him much good). Yes, Holmes improved after Tyson and got some of his ring rust off. The guys you mention were style-wise good match ups for Larry. McCall and Mercer never had a clue on what to do with boxers, even old ones like Holmes, who no longer had his legs. They are NOT swarmers, who put pressure on you like Tyson did- therefore an old man like Holmes can not only present problems for them but possibly beat them with his jab. Of course McCall and Mercer present style problems for Tyson, which is why he never fought them. Hollyfield beat Larry 8-4/9-3 in rounds, Evander wasn't a murderous puncher nor did he give Larry the pace that someone like Tyson would- but of course as you saw, he destroyed Tyson not once but twice. Of course Tyson was shot then- in you guy's minds. Again, "Larry Holmes is close to being in his prime" at age 39, without fighting in two years, but Mike Tyson's shot at age 23- Sorry but, I can't win that debate- it's like debating someone who thinks the moon's made out of green cheese.
Monday Jun 15, 2009 11:01:26 AM
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Paz:
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All the top boxers and critics acknowledge that Lewis had the full arsenal to beat everyone he ever faced.
And he did. He beat everyone.
He dominated Bowe for Olympic gold, then Bowe beat Holyfield twice and ducked Lewis. Lewis then beat Holyfield twice. Holyfield beat Tyson twice. Lewis then beat Tyson as well.
Tyson admitted he could never have beaten Lewis, even back in his prime days. Look it up. This is fact. Just look at people they fought. Razor Ruddock went 19 rounds with Tyson. Lewis KTFO'd Ruddock in 2 rounds. Lewis beat everyone they both faced more convincingly, apart from Frank Bruno.
George Foreman admitted that style wise Lennox would have been a nightmare for him.
George Foreman and Ali have both said they think Lewis is THE #1 Greatest Heavyweight of all time. Don't believe any of this? Look it up.
Why was Bowe pushed to the HW title before Lewis? Because he's American. Of course. If you're American, you get more hype. Americans want American fighters to be the best. Because the country is obsessed with the idea of being the best and find it completely unbearable to entertain the notion of someone from another country being better.
But everyone in boxing is agreed on the Lewis legacy. I would put him #3 on the all-time list but I think he would have beaten Muhammad Ali if they were both in their prime. This is because Lewis could only lose to a big KO and Ali didn't have the punching power. Ali had a great chin and he would have needed it. Lewis would KO Ali in the late rounds.
Saturday Mar 6, 2010 06:11:07 AM
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Angie And Goody...23 Years Later
Twenty three years later after they seconded Marvin Hagler and Ray Leonard in Las Vegas, Goody Petronelli and Angelo Dundee crossed paths again. This time, it was at Foxwoods. Photo/friend of TSS "The Iceman" John Scully reports there were only pleasantries exchanged. Goody didn't debate the split decision victory enjoyed by Leonard, which to this day Hagler disputes.
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