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bradley


Tuesday Apr 7, 2009

Kimball reached out to the best trainers in the business. All agree that re-taking a knee, once upright, is not the height of wisdom.

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Bradley's Move Was Hailed As Brilliant: Not So, Says Kimball

By George Kimball

Since boxing is a sport that trades on its legends, we’re generally not disposed toward debunking myths, particularly those that support an otherwise plausibly good storyline, but since this one appears to be taking on a life of its own it might be a good idea to nip it in the bud, lest it spawn an entire generation of puglists suddenly disposed to crawling around on their knees for all the wrong reasons. 

In the first round of last Saturday night’s 140-pound unification fight in Montreal, Kendall Holt unleashed a left hook that looked capable of taking Timothy Bradley’s head off. Bradley went down like he’d been popped with one of those stun-bolt guns they use in slaughterhouses, but then, amazingly, bounced right back to his feet. 

A second later he reconsidered that hasty rise and deliberately took a knee while referee Michael Griffin continued to count.  At ‘eight,’ Bradley sprung back to his feet, and not only lasted the round but went on to win a unanimous decision, despite the knockdown and a later trip to the canvas in the bout’s waning seconds. 

Al Bernstein, calling the fight for Showtime, credited Bradley’s “quick thinking” after the knockdown as a critical factor in the eventual outcome. A quick survey of that night’s coverage reveals that the boxing media seems to have bought wholesale into the notion that Bradley’s decision to take a knee either won, or helped him win, at the Bell Centre that night. 

Depending on whose account you’re reading, “some quick thinking by Bradley in the first round saved his night,” or Bradley “intelligently took a knee,” or that “the Californian wisely elected to get back down.”  Another online scribe – the same guy who called me “stupid,” by the way – referenced Bradley’s “clever” move. 

But it occurred to us that night that, far from being a brilliant tactic, it may well have been a foolish one, and that at best it was irrelevant. Bradley, after all, was going to get a mandatory eight-count from the referee. Once he was up, it seemed self-evident that it required a greater expenditure of energy to (a) go down on his knee and (b) get back up again than if he’d simply composed himself while he took the count on his feet. 

When I brought this point up at the post-fight press conference, Bradley, his trainer Joel Diaz, and his promoter, Gary Shaw, all looked at me like I had two heads. Bradley confirmed that he had gone back down at the direction of his corner. Shaw waved the query away, dismissively grunting his assurance that Bradley “did the right thing.”  

By then it was nearly 2 am, and since there obviously wasn’t going to be a dialogue on the matter, I allowed it to drop, though in a report filed that night I did note that since Bradley was going to get a count either way, “it didn’t seem particularly material whether he did it on his feet or on his knee.” 

No one else seems to have given it much thought at all, judging from the almost universal praise heaped upon Bradley for his “brilliant” move, but a random survey of top trainers and officials undertaken over the past few days confirms that far from being “the right thing,” it was almost assuredly the wrong thing. 

That it came at the behest of his trainer only compounds the transgression. To be sure, in an earlier age of boxing – one that had ended before Joel Diaz was even born – the trainer’s directive would have been meritorious, but you have to wonder about a trainer who would dispense that instruction in 2009. Does he also feed his boxers steak and raw eggs for breakfast – after they’ve finished chopping all their wood for the day? 

The ancient axiom upon which this time-honored theory relied was summarized by Rocky Marciano’s trainer Charlie Goldman, as quoted by the great A.J. Liebling in The Sweet Science:  

“If you’re ever knocked down, don’t be no hero and jump right up. Take a count.” 

Goldman’s logic was impeccable -- under the rules of the day. In the absence of a mandatory 8-count, as Liebling put it, “hostilities were de regle as soon as the fallen man got to his feet.”  

And since a boxer was penalized no more for a knockdown that lasted nine seconds than one that lasted two, it made perfect sense for a man who might be buzzed to stay down and take advantage of the respite while he gathered his wits.  A guy who jumped up at ‘three’ marked himself as a novice, since he would be fair game a second or two later. 

But the theory was already edging toward obsolescence even in Liebling’s day. The New York commission, for instance, had already adopted the mandatory 8-count by the mid-1950s. Liebling, incidentally, was no great fan of the then-new regulation, which he described as “a foolish, though well-intentioned rule.” 

“Whenever a boxer is knocked down, the referee must stop the fight for eight seconds, even if the man is back on his feet by ‘One,’” wrote Liebling. “This is designed to protect boxers from the effects of their own imprudence, but has resulted merely in atrophy of their estimative powers. Formerly boxers stayed down as long as they could when they were truly hurt. When they were undamaged, they got up as quickly as possible, in order to minimize the seriousness of their mishap. Now they all bounce to their feet as if conscious, secure in the knowledge they will get the eight seconds anyway. This substitutes a reflex for the exercise of reason. It is also hard on the fellow who, after staying on the mat until “eight’ or ‘nine,’ might have decided to remain there.”  

More than half a century later, the mandatory 8 is with us to stay. It is incorporated into the rules of the WBA, the WBO, and the IBF, and while the WBC does not specifically require it, it obtains in virtually all of that sanctioning body’s title fights as well. The mandatory 8-count is used in every state jurisdiction, and is incorporated into the Unified Rules that obtained last Saturday in Montreal. 

Whether Bradley might have just stayed down in the first place is at best a debatable point, but once he was up, the experts seem to agree, taking the knee was just plain dumb. 

Three-time Trainer of the Year Freddie Roach, who is training Manny Pacquiao for his May 2 encounter with Ricky Hatton, watched Bradley-Holt with some interest, since Bradley looms a future rival for the winner, and had the same reaction we did. 

“Why would you go back down again?” wondered Roach. “He was already up, so he should have stayed up.” 

“Taking a knee after getting up is a bad idea,” said Randy Neumann, a top-echelon New Jersey referee. “It involves too much activity, at what is not a good time.” 

“With the mandatory eight, I’d rather have all my boxers get to their feet if they can,” said Hall of Fame trainer Emanuel Steward. “But once he was up, getting down on his knee was, as you say, not only a big waste of time and energy, but it could have been dangerous. What if his legs had been shaky when he got back up? The referee might have stopped the fight.” 

(How many times have you seen that happen? A boxer goes down from a punch, stays there to collect his thoughts, gets up late in the count, and then when the referee asks him to step toward him he lurches ever so slightly and all of a sudden the ref is waving his arms.) 

“How is a fighter going to even know if his legs are all right if he’s still on the canvas?” asked Steward. “The legs recover best if he’s on his feet.” 

“If a guy looks like he might be dazed when he gets knocked down, you might want him to stay down a little rather than struggle to get right back up,” said Goody Petronelli, who trained Marvelous Marvin Hagler. “But going back down when he’s already up? I agree; it sounds like a rookie move. It makes no sense at all.” 

One other point might be made about the efficacy of the tactic. Freddie Roach recalled an episode at Foxwoods half a dozen years ago. Mohamed Abdulaev, the 2000 Olympic champion from Uzbekistan, was unbeaten as a pro and well ahead in his bout against Emmanuel Clottey when he was decked in the 10th and final round. Abdulaev got to one knee and looked over at this corner, where his trainer was motioning him to stay down while Mike Ortega administered the count. 

“Trouble was,” recalled Roach, “he didn’t speak English, so he just stayed there on his knee and got counted out.”

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Real Talk:  Thia one is about a whole lot of nothing . I still say it was a smart move to get his scruples back together . And WOW...how mach energy does it relly take to get up from one knee ??? I didn't know Bradly was 125 years old , but to each his own . That's my story an I'm sticking to it ! Dueces
Tuesday Apr 7, 2009 09:04:54 PM
Tex:  And how exactly does being on one knee help you get your scruples together better than being on your feet? Kimball has a point.
Tuesday Apr 7, 2009 10:45:31 PM
in touch :  So right, Real Talk, all ado about nothing. A fighter goes by his instincts. The man took a knee because he had the whereabouts to do it. It was an alert move. Who cares if he took it on his knees or on his feet. When writers write who have no fight experience they sometimes just fill pages; that seems to be the case here. One thing that is true more than anything else is that fighters, when hurt, do what they know by instinct. Their true nature comes out then. Bullies do weird things. Remember tyson against douglas? He wasted so much time trying to pick his mouthguard up. Now that is a case of a fighter not having good survival instincts. Lots of fighters have gone down, taken a knee and gathered their senses. That's just smart.
Tuesday Apr 7, 2009 10:49:38 PM
Boxing Jesus:  the only decent point/argument was made by Emmanuel Stewart. Good discussion, though. Bradley must have been a little more affected than he showed? Because of his superb shape he supposedly didn't show the effects of the punch. Regardless, TB was on his game enough to win the fight. Timothy Bradley also deserved that victory more than KHolt and he earned it. The work rate and heart of Bradley was very commendable. Good point In touch also (read above comment)
Tuesday Apr 7, 2009 11:41:31 PM
andy from newcastle:  And how much energy does it take to write an article about something as unimportant as this? TSS must be struggling for column inches. And Mr.Kimball, you've yet to explain to us how you scored this fight a draw. Toonoy
Wednesday Apr 8, 2009 06:40:27 AM
rudy:  ditto Andy, Kimball grasping at air with this one.
Wednesday Apr 8, 2009 10:23:26 AM
why:  This is the SAME guy that called this fight a DRAW! It's Obvious Mr. Kimball has NEVER boxed before...
Wednesday Apr 8, 2009 11:52:52 AM
Tommy:  Let me try to explain why it's an excellent strategy to take a knee through an analogy; because I understand that most of you have never been in a professional boxing match and been rocked by a K.O. type punch including the name trainers who give their expert advice by have no experience! Have you ever been taking an afternoon nap and the phone rings ,you leap to your feet to rush to the phone and you experience some dizzyness? That's similar to the way you feel after getting smacked with a hard punch that's sends you to the canvas, your head is spinning yes you feel o.k. but if you rise too fast you will probably wobble. So it's only going to cost you a point which you have already lost so why get up too soon and get kayoed or have the ref stop the fight because your unsteady. The proper thing to do is to rise to one knee, keep one hand on the canvas in a three point stance to steady yourself, the same reason they place a camera on a tripod to keep it firmly in place. Looking to the corner is a waste, What are they going to tell you? Get UP! The most important thing is to pick up the count from the ref so you will rise before 10 and be ready to go. Bradley in another interview said they practice this in the gym and what happended he realized he should have taken a knee and not be standing up so he went down. Boxers, You know what your self-employed and your trainer and yourself needs to go over every possible circumstance that may occur in a bout when something happens during a fight it's too late to start giving instructions the pace is too fast?
Wednesday Apr 8, 2009 01:32:24 PM
brownsugar:  worthless article... worthy of being written by a law student writing his final disertation but having no natural knowledge of what motivates people to behave the way they do,.. I've seen several matches where guys took a 2 or 3 count and got back up to have thier gloves wiped and put back into the fight by the ref because he thought the fighter was ready to go... then I preceeded to read the avalanche of web posts submitted by a legion of armchair coaches (including myself) who rightly said he should have stayed down for the full count,.... whether or not the rules say a fighter gets a standing 8 after hitting the floor is irrelevent,.. the fact that the fighter knows he isn't ready and takes a knee to secure the mandatory 8 seconds repreive is evidence enough that Bradley knew he needed some recovery time,.. in a recent interveiw Bradley said that he realized his right leg was numb when he got up,.. anybody whose been in the ring has experienced thier legs going numb or partially paralyzed after being the recipient of the perfect punch... .... better for Bradley to take a knee rather than being observed by a national audience displaying the infamous "Chicken Dance" when the after-effects kick in,.. thus causing the ref to call a halt to the precedings,...Finally as far as Bradleys' available disposable energy is concerned,.. getting up twice probably burned a fraction of a calorie in the body of a well conditioned fighter who was willing to burn thousands of calories to cement his victory,.. peace.
Wednesday Apr 8, 2009 03:10:47 PM
LeonardoMarroquini:  Come on... This article basically creates a storm over nothing. I mean, it was indeed a better move to stay back down at one knee, because at one knee you dont have to focus on saying up.. whatever... I'm disappointed George KImball wrote an article over this...
Wednesday Apr 8, 2009 03:26:00 PM
DaveB:  I don't think of it as a bad move, but I also don't think of it necessarily as a brilliant move. Either way he would have gotten the mandatory eight and should have survived the round. I remember when Holmes got rocked by Shavers and he got up and jumped around while he got the eight, and people credited him with clearing his head because of doing that. So who knows?
Wednesday Apr 8, 2009 05:52:14 PM
Da Unknown Comic:  Bradley didn't take a knee, nor did he rise to a knee. He got up then went back down. Stupid move. I have yet to hear ANY reason why it was a good move. 114-112 Holt.
Wednesday Apr 8, 2009 06:55:12 PM
Romi:  "spawn an entire generation of puglists suddenly disposed to crawling around on their knees for all the wrong reasons" If that isn't the most exaggerated deduction of all time then I don't know what is. Thanks for sparing us of all those potential littered canvases George. Bradley was crawling on his knees huh? I find the article totally pointless and a little insulting. You aren't Bradley and you have no idea what was going through his head. He took a hellacious shot that would have left many fighters down for the count yet instead of giving the guy an ounce of credit, you want to criticize him for what YOU feel to be a stupid decision. This is simply much ado about NOTHING. Some fighters choose to take a knee when they are hurt, to regain their senses. It's as simple as that. Now how you could score this one a draw is an entirely different matter. What did those experts have to say about your scorecard? Bradley clearly won at least 8 rds. My guess is you picked Holt to win and you wanted to save face.
Thursday Apr 9, 2009 03:34:25 AM
MisterLee:  I'm watching the fight now for the first time, and Kimball brings up some worthy points. Maybe the thing is: 1.) Bradley may have been too eager and inexperienced (23 fights is perhaps not a rookie, not a veteran) 2.) Kimball's article may have come expos facto (after the fact, hindsight bias) 3.) Bradley won the fight, so then it becomes "brilliant" if he wins, "stupid" if he loses. With every thought idea, there is another one on the flipside of the coin. Kimball brings up a point few of us would have considered, inserts some good boxing knowledge from historically great trainers and current p4p trainers (in Steward, and "Joke Coach" Roach :), and he may have a point. This move could have affected Bradley negatively, and maybe on other nights it may have hurt him, but on this night it probably helped him. Maybe it was not the right thing to do, just like in swingers you always gotta "double down on aces", but in his circumstance it works. Guys, take it easy on Kimball, he obviously knows some of his boxing stuff and he provides an interesting etch into the sweet science. Pc out! Ward takes Miranda in 6 rounds tko May 16, 2009! :)
Thursday Apr 9, 2009 01:43:27 PM
Romi:  A bit harsh on my part. No hard feelings George Kimball. I still disagree with his comments but that certainly doesn't imply he's not a good scribe. IMHO Bradley taking a knee is a non issue. I believe the much bigger story on the night was the heart and perserverence Bradley showed. I believe that would have an infinitely more profound impact on other fighters than him taking the knee...just my .02
Thursday Apr 9, 2009 03:29:58 PM
Yuvie:  Not even something I noticed, who cares.
Thursday Apr 9, 2009 05:05:50 PM
Urone2:  I think he still did the right thing, if you noticed when he turned to walk to the ropes after the knock down, he was unsteady on his feet. I think back to Judah/Tsyzu, if Judah had taken a knee may his career would have been different. Just may Judah could have survived that round, now what if Bradley had stayed on his feet and lost his balance and had the fight waved off. IMO would have been the right thing to do after witnessing Bradley taking such a big left hook. If he took th knee at the advice of his corner to stablize hisself its a smart move. He did a little jig when he went to the ropes then took a knee I don't see a problem in that at all.
Friday Apr 10, 2009 03:51:51 AM
Romi:  Urone said it best and he used a very good example in the Judah fight.. The whole purpose is just to gain a few extra seconds to clear your head. Getting up too soon can cause the fighter to get light headed. I believe he did the right thing and the smart thing. To conclude that a generation of fighters will "crawl around on their knees for all the wrong reasons" is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read.
Friday Apr 10, 2009 11:52:49 AM

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