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| "That energy is pretty amazing," said Couture, who was weaned on Sugar Ray Leonard and Marvelous Marvin Hagler. "There's no way to be involved and not feel it." |
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Boxing vs. UFC
By Tim Graham
Never before had I watched it. Not in person. Not on television. I frankly didn't have a smidgeon of concern if I ever saw an Ultimate Fighting Championship event.
But there I was in Las Vegas two weeks ago, having returned to my old stamping grounds to cover suspended heavyweight Joe Mesi's hearing with the Nevada State Athletic Commission's medical advisory board. I arrived a few days early to visit some old friends and to make sure all my old haunts still served their beer cold.
A big UFC pay-per-view show was taking place in the MGM Grand Garden, and NSAC executive director Marc Ratner, having learned of my UFC virginity, suggested I drop by to give the sport a chance. Seeing as how my liver was begging me for a night off, I decided to drop by the Grand Garden to catch some of the action and perhaps gain enough material to write a first-person account of UFC from a hardboiled boxing fan's perspective.
The event I attended was UFC 52.
No. 53 couldn't come soon enough, and I've been hunting for copies of the first 51.
I know there are tons more folks out there like me who've been reluctant to give mixed martial arts an honest look. Time to let down your guard and stop being such a curmudgeon.
The exhilaration of UFC matched that of a Las Vegas megabout, blow for blow. A high-voltage crowd of 14,562 filled the Grand Garden Arena - those are old Mike Tyson numbers - to see a highly anticipated rematch between Chuck Liddell and Randy Couture for the light heavyweight championship.
"That energy is pretty amazing," said Couture, who was weaned on Sugar Ray Leonard and Marvelous Marvin Hagler. "There's no way to be involved and not feel it."
Sometimes UFC isn't the best sport to watch live because you can miss the finer points once the fighters end up in a heap, but the action can make boxing look stale by comparison. Had you watched a steady diet of UFC before catching Saturday night's bout between James Toney and John Ruiz, you might turn off boxing forever.
I'm not that guy. Boxing will always be tops in my book. But now I understand UFC's allure.
Boxing, in a strict athletic sense, is pure. The fighters punch each other from the waist up on the ventral side. Anything else is a foul.
UFC is far coarser and more complicated. Fighters use a variety of disciplines such as jiu-jitsu, aikido, sambo and wrestling. For the untrained eye it can be difficult to enjoy the finer points. Sometimes the guy on the bottom is winning. But you don't have to be able to recognize a neck crank, a guillotine or a rear naked choke to feel the drama.
"There's been a resistance to learning or trying to understand it," said UFC spokesman Jack Taylor. "Traditionalists don't want to believe it or accept it as a sport."
To me, UFC represented a bit of professional wrestling. It all seemed a little too out there. Two guys wearing Speedos and going at it in an eight-sided cage felt a little too theatrical.
"If you watch it you realize very quickly there's nothing scripted about it, nothing choreographed or staged," Couture said. "It's very real, very gritty."
That was clear to me shortly after I located my seat and became enthralled by the undercard bouts.
Matt Lindland, the Greco Roman wrestling silver medalist from the 2000 Olympics, summed up his middleweight victory over jujitsu practitioner Travis Lutter: "He was tying me up and made it hard to hit him. So I decided to choke him instead."
Ahem.
It sure felt like Lindland's hand was around my trachea during the next match, but it merely was my heart in my throat.
In the opening seconds, welterweight champ Matt Hughes was moments away from losing to Frank Trigg. The referee didn't see Trigg had kneed Hughes in the nether region. As Hughes grabbed his manhood and spit out his mouthpiece to complain, Trigg pounced and began to waylay.
Hughes somehow gathered himself and in wonderfully dramatic fashion bear hugged Trigg around the waist, lifted him off the mat, marched him across the ring like a dummy, slammed him down and administered a rear naked choke.
Trigg tapped out.
I was agog.
Suffice to say, boxers have a rather dismal track record in mixed martial arts competitions. In UFC, a boxer heading into the octagon would be like dropping a goldfish into a meat grinder.
Since "standing and striking," as UFCers call it, is only one element of the sport, boxers struggle.
"From their perspective it looks easy," Couture said. "They think about their skill set and say 'I'll just knock this guy out before he puts me on the ground.' A lot of times, when you face somebody who's going to shoot and take you down, you don't realize how difficult that is to stop somebody from doing it."
UFC continues to grow and will get even bigger as it gains more widespread acceptance across the country. It's sanctioned in Florida, Louisiana, Nevada and New Jersey and at the Mohegan Sun in Connecticut. It's close to being sanctioned in California.
And for frustrated boxing fans there's plenty to like about UFC's business model. There are only five weight classes, and the whole operation is under one roof. That means the best will fight each other. There are no promoter shenanigans, no ratings politics, no inflated records. Even the greatest fighters have multiple losses. Couture has seven. Liddell has three. Hughes has four.
"Nobody fights bums or dogs in the UFC," Taylor said.
Amen to that.
* * *
BURNING QUESTIONS: Am I the only one who thinks Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. looks like a frightened 5-year-old who has just been dropped off for his first day of kindergarten?
Whatever happened to Magic Johnson's career as boxing's promotional savior?
Why can't the WBC learn how to spell Lamon Brewster's name correctly?
Sulaiman & Co. have been calling him "Lamont" for years.
TONEY NO PHONEY: The fight wasn't wildly entertaining, but Toney proved he belongs among the heavyweight elite with his decisive triumph over the WBA champ. Ruiz, as much as his style makes me vomit, has always been underrated. Toney toyed with Ruiz all night. The little man wore down the big man and sent him into retirement. Toney would have trouble with Vitali Klitschko's range, but it's not hard to imagine him beating anyone else in the division.
CHIP OFF THE OL' COBB: I guess Larry Holmes hit Randall "Tex" Cobb so hard his kids came out dizzy. That's how unsteady on his feet Josh Cobb looked Friday night in his second pro bout. The 19-year-old heavyweight was huffing and puffing in his ugly TKO-3 loss to Javier Diaz on ESPN2's show from the Union Plaza in Las Vegas. I wonder how many witnesses vowed never again to watch boxing.
HAIL, CAESARS: I don't know of a more beautiful sports setting than outdoor boxing at Caesars Palace. To see the Sweet Science applied under the gloaming, with the famous hotel and its neon sign in the background, is as comforting as a phone call from mom.
QUOTEMARKS: "I always treated everybody with respect, but they didn't treat me the same way. It hurts me to walk away like this. I grew up in boxing. It's sad for me to put it this way, but boxing was the sport I loved. Now it's the sport I hate." - Ruiz to The Boston Globe after losing to Toney.
"I doubt he has the balls to fight Samuel. If he did, it would give me great pleasure to watch Sam beat the hell out of him." - Samuel Peter's promoter, Dino Duva, on Toney.
"I am looking to see if he really does have the power to knock me down, to knock me out. We have to go up in the ring and find out. I think I am strong enough to take his punch and we will find out who really is the strongest guy up there." - Jose Luis Castillo on fighting Diego Corrales on Saturday night.
FAREWELL, JACK: Some newspapers listed his age at 80. The Associated Press said he was 76. Nobody could locate any survivors. Everybody who came into contact with Jack Welsh considered him a friend, but few really knew him. Welsh passed away last week. He died in his sleep shortly after attending ESPN's pay-per-view show at Caesars Palace.
I was one of those boxing writers who thought he knew Jack. He was ubiquitous when it came to boxing, writing for such publications as The Ring, Boxing Monthly, Flash Update and Gaming Today, as well as Showtime's website. He was at ringside, the news conferences, the weigh-ins, the media junkets to places like Big Bear, California. He always had a smile on his face and a story for any occasion. I enjoyed being around him.
But Jack also lived a lonely existence. He was a recovering alcoholic who lived alone and didn't always have enough money to handle his bills. But Jack always had his benefactors - whether they wrote his stories for him back in the day while he was on a bender, or they helped pay the rent in recent years - and there will be a special place reserved for them in the afterlife for their kindness.
I remember the night I met Jack. It was 1994 and I was a cub reporter for the Lorain Morning Journal dispatched to Las Vegas to cover hometown boy Carl "Stuff" Griffith against Oscar De La Hoya. Here I was, in the belly of the beast for the first time, my first trip to Vegas, covering my first major boxing event. Jack must've seen the intimidation on my face because he made it a point to come over and say hello and welcome me to the city that eventually would become my home for five years.
After Roy Jones obliterated Toney in the main event, Jack introduced me to a group of boxing writers who allowed me to tag along for drinks at the Four Kegs on Tropicana Avenue. I sat there with Mike Katz, Ed Schuyler, Royce Feour, Tim Dahlberg, Robert Seltzer, Joe Maxse, Jim Hunter and others I can't recall through the haze. As Jack Welsh had done earlier, they enraptured me with tales of the Sweet Science. The beer and booze came in waves.
I have been a boxing fan, and frequently sloshed, ever since.
Welcome to the business, kid.
And thank you, Jack, for ushering me there.
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Michael:
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I\'m a fan of boxing and Mixed Martial Arts (the official name for the sport that the UFC is a part of). I don\'t see them as mutually exclusive sports at all, far from it in fact. MMA has lots of boxing incorporated into it, so there\'s no reason why a boxing fan could not at least enjoy the stand up game in MMA, and vice versa. I think you\'ll find that a lot of MMA fans are into boxing as well, it\'s like having the best of both worlds. I love all combat sports.
Monday Nov 6, 2006 08:08:03 AM
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Anonymous user:
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I am tired of all this shit Floyd Maywether and Sean Sherk need to fight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thursday May 31, 2007 09:10:35 AM
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Anonymous user:
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They sould set up a series of fights between mma and boxing.
The top athletes in each weight class from both should be matched up. Then the should have to have both a boxing match and a mma match. it would take alot of time, but also it would make tons of money and everyonewould love to see it happen..
Wednesday Nov 28, 2007 10:36:33 AM
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truth b. told:
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MMA at this point is all skills and training based, not talent based. you take a world class boxer, give him a crash course on grappling, and he will dominate MMA. try it the other way around, and the MMA figther will get knocked out. A big reason for the popularoty of MMA is that there are always fights between supposedly top guys, whereas in boxing there are 3-4 big fights a year.
Also, at the risk of sounding cynical, I think the fact that MMA is now a white-dominated sport, with a high percetage of white combatants, whereas boxing is dominated by blacks and hispanics, accounts for the growing appeal of MMA.
Thursday Dec 13, 2007 01:37:02 PM
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Anonymous user:
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another important diff. boxing uses much more padding on their gloves, MMA striked are precise and deadly, boxing lets everything go leaving the MMA fight to land a much more precise and damaging blow
Monday Dec 17, 2007 11:33:46 PM
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Mihai:
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I am also a boxing and MMA fan. The pool of MMA fighters is somewhat limited therefore their quality as fighters is hard to determine. Boxing has given over the years legendary fights and champions, that is mostly due to the fact that they came a very long way to reach the top and that they ascended from a very wide range of fighters. Although very entertaining and tough I cannot think of any great MMA fight in the past ten years, I have seen good fights even some memorable, but none great. I think UFC is 100% show oriented, and that's good. The fighters are muscular, tatooed and make scary faces. But as your interest into the sport grows you see there's not much else to it. Most fighters are presented as former champions of, I don't know what, but 99% of them are nobodies. I don't hold that against them, I'm a nobody too. Nevertheless many of them are great even in their willingness to get butchered in the ring.
It is impossible to determine whether the fights are fixed or not. Remember it's a corporate bussiness and to me everything looks very controlled as all statements are made in a choir. No dissonant voice is heard and that makes me suspicious of the whole thing. And to finish on a more funny note, I'm also suspicious that no overweight or even slightly overweight fighters are competing in the UFC and that's statistically impossible.
Sunday Jan 6, 2008 10:38:08 AM
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jfisher:
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MMA is popular in my opinions because it is so fast paced, but so technical at the same time. If you learn the aspects of the ground game, it becomes a chess match between two people that are trying to smash the other players head asunder. I feel like i need to adress the negativity towards the sport so here i go..
Mihai: it is not even close to be staged, if it was, it would be the WWE, you don't hear dissonant sounds because if they do make any noises that give the indication that they are hurt, the ref will call the fight because of the fact that most submissions can completely ruin you. and most fighters are college and olympic wrestlers, juijitsu champions, and K1 champions, the 'nobodys' are on the undercard. and there is a TON of overweight fighters. It is apperent that you havent seen someone tank abbot or tim silvia.
truth b told: top contending boxers have tried that with MMA fighters, and the results were always the same, MMA dominated before the first round was over. MMA is a sport full of talented fighters, boxing is a sport full of talented boxers. MMA is expanding, and their are hispanics and black people fighting, im wathing the huerta vs garcia fight right now. I watched chuck lidell get knocked out by quinten jackson just before this. It is spreading, no doubt about that. Finally the gloves are lighter to enable the ground aspect of the sport.
Micheal: i love watching the best fights in boxing, some of them are exciting, but the way boxing is turning out these days, they are really getting boring. I would put fedor on mayweather, he's a straight up BEAST lol, but i would seriously love to see MMA vs. Boxing, just to settle all the trash talking between the two lol
Monday Jan 21, 2008 09:09:18 PM
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Mike:
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Boxers will ko mma fighters in a street fight 90 percent of the time. Because by the time the mma guy decides that taking his opponent to the parking lot pavement may not protect him from any hidden weapons or extra homeboys, it is too late. The reflexes of a skilled prize fitghter (100 - 200 fights), obliterates the chap. Boxing is 95 % natural reflexes and it is not how hard you get hit but how clean that counts. By the way a boxer floored and koed bj penn about a year ago at a Hawaii night club, I guess bj thought there would be one punch at a time or windmills or something, big mistake.
peace, respect,
Wednesday Jan 30, 2008 10:18:46 PM
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Gabriel:
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Well all this talk from boxers but no action? I dont see any "real" boxers, boxers with a "good name" in the octagon? For example, Mayweather, think hes afraid?
Wednesday Feb 13, 2008 03:40:29 PM
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Mike:
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juijitsu works good in the tournaments but it is not practical on the strreet. I call the "gaurd" the "missionary position" its ridiculous to think you would pull that crap in a street fight. Unless you are fighting some one who does not know how to fight (99% of the public), you are exposing you nuts and you are one if you think your opponent won't squeeeeze you and make you cry.
Wednesday Feb 13, 2008 07:16:53 PM
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Gabriel:
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Well all this talk from boxers but no action? I dont see any "real" boxers, boxers with a "good name" in the octagon? For example, Mayweather, think hes afraid?
Thursday Feb 14, 2008 11:57:41 AM
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Gabriel:
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Well of course boxers CAN ko an mma fighter and but then an mma fighter can submit a boxer. Thats the whole point of mma, its more diverse than boxing and thats what makes it more exciting to watch. The thing is that they are two completely different sports so dont try to compare apples to oranges. Also who cares about street fights. Anyone can snicker someone and besides theres no rules in street fighting. In the ring and in the octagon there are rules and there are hearts, the biggest heart will win. The beauty of mma is that there are more ways to win than by knoking the opponent out.
Thursday Feb 14, 2008 12:03:21 PM
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Gabriel:
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Well of course boxers CAN ko an mma fighter and but then an mma fighter can submit a boxer. Thats the whole point of mma, its more diverse than boxing and thats what makes it more exciting to watch. The thing is that they are two completely different sports so dont try to compare apples to oranges. Also who cares about street fights. Anyone can snicker someone and besides theres no rules in street fighting. In the ring and in the octagon there are rules and there are hearts, the biggest heart will win. The beauty of mma is that there are more ways to win than by knoking the opponent out.
Thursday Feb 14, 2008 03:44:50 PM
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Michael Carter:
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"UFC is far coarser and more complicated. Fighters use a variety of disciplines such as jiu-jitsu, aikido, sambo and wrestling. "
Sorry to be a pedant, but Aikido has never been applied successfully in
MMA, least of all the UFC.
Wednesday Mar 5, 2008 08:12:29 AM
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Ben:
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You can't compare the sports of boxing and MMA because they require entirely different skill sets. Its like comparing nascar to formula 1 racing. They both use cars, but the cars are used in different ways (ones a course the other is driving in a circle). Boxing is a fight SPORT and people should remember that. Boxers wear their shorts up high to limit the area an opponent can hit ( nothing below the belt remember). And some fighters try to get away with covering their kidneys with their shorts. If a boxer could he'd have them up around his arm pits. Boxers are also forced to wear 12-16 ounce gloves on their hands. Its like fighting with pillows on. Boxers also by and large only have to worry about being punched. That's it. Yes , they can be knocked out, but seriously it takes ROUNDS and ROUNDS of being hit before that usually happens. MMA is a different animal. You have smaller gloves, so fighters can't cover up like boxers do. Why? Because the punches get through when you don't have 12 to 16 ounce MICKEY MOUSE hands stopping them. Mixed Martial artists aren't the greatest boxers in the world , because they don't have to be. THERE IS MORE TO FIGHTING THAN THROWING A PUNCH. Don't forget in MMA ( in the USA at least) you can Elbow, Knee, Kick, Slam, Kick a man when he is down ( only in the body) Choke, and Punch your opponent. You can also use submissions (which I know everyone hates but they work, so shut up). In Japan and Brazil you can even kick a man while he is down in the head , and elbow to the spine and back of the head. MMA is a Street fight that is trying to be a sport. While Boxing is a sport that people think is a street fight. America should wake up and realize there is more to fighting than the big right hand and the cowboy swing. When it does, MMA will sky rocket in popularity. So yes, take a MMA guy and try to make him play by boxings rules and he'll probably lose. Why? Cause he's just lost 90% of the weapons he's used to fighting with and now has to stand there and slug it out like a jackass. Put a boxer in a MMA fight ( or even a kick boxing/ Muay Thai fight for Christ's Sake) and he'll LOSE BIG because he's got more than just fists to worry about. It takes a lot more training to be a MMA Athlete than a boxer. Boxers don't Fight for 5 minute rounds. They don't have to be good Wrestlers, Submission fighters, and Boxers all at the same time ( During the same match mind you). So I say this to Boxers and boxing fans. If you think its so easy, shut up and get into an octagon or you local jujitsu school and see how easy it is. After being beaten and humiliated for a couple hours you'll have a little more respect. Enjoy your SPORT and I'll enjoy watching a FIGHT. Thank you.
Monday Mar 10, 2008 12:50:38 AM
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Paul:
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The reason that very talented boxers do not even consider MMA is because there's no payoff. MMA fighters don't earn squat. SO why go through the years of training to learn how to deal with grapplers and submissions when it doesn't pay. Reverse the question now. There is a lot of potential money to earn in boxing. So how come world class amateur wrestlers and martial arts experts don't go into boxing? Are there examples? They certainly have financial incentives to do so. My guess is that they don't have the punching power, hand-speed or chin stamina that are needed in boxing.
Bring the money and the athletes who are naturally fit for boxing will gravitate to MMA. And the quality of the strikers will greatly improve in MMA. The sport will grow up from the roll and submit scuffles it is now.
Friday Apr 25, 2008 12:13:42 AM
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Casey:
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I have been a fan of both boxing and MMA for a while now and it is no contest which one is more entertaining, its MMA. On boxing u never know what your going to get. If your lucky u might get to see a Gatti vs. Ward type of fight, but a lot of the time you see to guys pussy footing around half the fight and only a few moments of action. This happens a lot with some big name fights. Fights that you have to pay $50 on PPV to see and it could be a huge dissapointment and a waste of money. I rather watch Spike TV and see the ultimate fighter and Other UFC events, you know the type of fights you would usally have to pay to see. I know you have pay to see some really goods fights, but at least the UFC cares enough about its fans to throw them a bone every now and then. I know if i watch a MMA fight I know I have a good chance of seeing a knockout or a submission and if it does go the distance it is usually a hell of a fight because that dosen't happen that often. Also I don't have to pay so theres no risk . One other that really bothers me about people comparing MMA to boxing is that people see boxing as a work of art a "Sweet Science" as it is often referred as. Whereas the UFC and Other MMA organization are often Called barbaric, savage, and I even heard it being refered to human cockfighting. First off these men who are MMA fighters are highly trained and disiplined in there particular Martial art style and its often more than one style there trained in. ESPN and other sports news center make it seem like there are just two guys throw in a cage to kill each other when they are highly trained athletes, athletes in a sport that demands them to be in top phisically condition and for them to be extremley mentally tough more so than any other sport. You think they would be praised for there ability, but instead there ridiculed because of the ignorence of the people who talk about the sport. Finally i hate hearing about how dangerous MMA is. It is a lot Safer to be knockout early than it is to be taking a beating to the head round after round like in boxing. Thats why fighters in boxing get brain damage and in some cases even die from the abuse they take in the ring. Unfortunatly for boxing it is a dying sport and MMA is getting stronger each day, its only a matter of time before boxing is engulfed by the world of MMA because make no doubt it is here to stay.
Wednesday May 7, 2008 05:00:15 PM
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adam:
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When compairing mma and boxing you have to realise that boxing is a sport that is based on talent and athletic abilaty. mma is is mainly two very tough guy beating on each other. A point to back this up is that when looking at the win loss records even the top pound for pound mma fighters do tend to have lost a few fights. this seems to resemble the win loss records of boxings old days from its bear knuckel days to the pre war era,when the sport was considerable more dangerous. the win lose records also show that a fair part of mma is luck, if you are on top on the floor you are always in a winning position. and on a personal not it is not a sport when you can mount someone and punch them repetadle in the face, in my opinion it is in no way entertaining to see someone being struck when on the ground. even in the the 1600s when boxing was first becoming popular since roman times, the londonderry rules (which were changed for the queensberry rules) were in many ways alot safer. but to be fair to mma, their are alot less cases of brain damage in mma than boxing this is to do with the weight of the gloves and the lenth of the fight, but more people die in horse racing than any other sport so that the consiquences of the sport are less important to this perticular agument of what is better entertainment wise. when it comes down to it the only opinion that I can have is that mma is a very crude fighting sport and I take no pleasure in watching it, although I do feel that people do have a right to watch or participate if they feel compeled to. I do feel that boxing is a fighting sport that have evolved over hundreds of years to become the ultimate sport where human animalistick naturer is conveyed into an elegantly aggressive sport that is rightfully give the name of the sweet scinece, because the best boxers the ones that everyone rememberes are all scientists sugar ray sugar leonard ali may weather hopkins ext where as all the mma fighters i have seen are brawlers and the better at brawling they are inrespective to boxing skills of hand speed power and chin, the better mma they will be. in the end it is only a sport and peoples prefferances are the over all judge of what is best. sinces the ufcs ganing in popularity boxing has been quick to make derogatry remarkes about it which show that they are scared. and rightfully so as ufc could easily become more popular ecpecally as it is show in a very pro wreseling soap opra manor which draws in alot of undiced fans. As mma becomes more popular it will enevatable bring more money and more talented people to the sport futher harming boxing.It is a sad reflection of the times when people would rather watch the brutality of mma than the sporting brilliance of boxing.
Saturday Jun 7, 2008 03:46:56 PM
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David:
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Adam, you couldn't be more ridiculous and out of touch with the reality of mma compared to boxing. Boxing is based on talent and athletic ability?? Yes, and so is mma, but takes considerably more talent and a lot more brain power than boxing. Probably one reason that so many mma fighters have a college degree and so many boxers haven't completed high school. Also, in a street fight a skilled mma would hurt a skilled boxer so fast it wouldn't even be funny. Can you say knee to the head, kicked his teeth out and about 1000 other possibilities.
Saturday Jun 14, 2008 11:01:15 AM
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Adam Godhard:
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David you say I am out of touch with the reality but you bring up the matter of street fighting when we are talking about two sports would you compare football hooligans who fight in big gangs for pleasure to American football or rugby. street fighting cannot be compared to mma or boxing simply because there are a lot more factors to include in street fighting. where your fighting concrete floor hurt when you hit them. surprise fights often start when you least expect them to weapons drugs alcohol other people getting involved. It’s kind of insulting when you hear mma fighters and boxers talk about street fighting and anyone who thinks it is an acceptable comparison. you also say that mma fighters are clever than boxers because they have "collage degrees" people are born intelligent everyone can learn stuff. Boxers tend to dedicate their entire life’s to training for their sport what use is a college degree. education is often down to circumstances I left school at 16 with no qualifications and worked for a living I am now 22 and have just gone back to school and have an IQ of 144 which makes me well than above average intelligence. But if I was capable of being an athlete of any kind I would spend every day training so I could be the best that I could be. I sure you aware of the great sugar ray Robinson he is what people would call a scientific boxers you are fan of mma and should know a lot more than me about the participants of the sport so could you please let me know if there are any mma fighters who could be called scientists. I also brought up a great many more points in my previous statement if you disagree with me don’t just call me ridiculous tell me which points and why you disagree with them. You seem to just with respect insult mine and your own intelligence by bring street fighting and academic education up. Could you please respond thank you.
Sunday Jun 15, 2008 04:00:37 AM
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Yah:
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Martial arts is going to evolve again just like it did during the Bruce Lee Period in the 70s and early 80s. More and more people are tuning in to MMA. Boxing will still be out there but I think people will tune in more to MMA.
Sunday Jun 22, 2008 06:16:20 AM
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mwhite:
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Some of these comments are hysterical. I guess the boxers at the local gym are trying to put in their two-cents. You idiots make it seem like you could give a crash course to a professional boxer in MMA and they would be good to go? That is hilarious!!! What you forget is the majority of the MMA fighters are excellent boxers as well. You wont find to many boxers if any that know how to protect themselves on the ground. The stance alone from an MMA fighter would completely throw off most boxers. You underestimate the MMA fighter. I have been around boxing for 30 years now and seen both live and there is no comparison IMO between the two. The MMA fighters are more skilled overall than the majority of the boxers overall. I think we would love to see the sissy boy Mayweather get into the ring with any top notch MMA fighter. I guarantee the punk would never enter the octagon again that is if he even lived to see another day. What a joke!!!!
Monday Jun 30, 2008 01:08:50 PM
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WhiteCastle:
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MMA = Mixed Martial Arts
-Muay Thai
-BJJ
-BOXING
-Kickboxing
-Wrestling
-Karate
Do I need to go on? Boxing, is just one part of fighting. So saying a boxer could take out someone who knows multiple martial arts is ridiculous. Some of you boxing guys are acting like the only thing an MMA fighter can do is grapple, and if they try to do stand up they will get killed. Well your forgetting a limbs here, I guarantee you a boxer going into a Muay Thai tournament using just boxing will get beat. Two things will happen here
1. Muay Thai fighter will chop away the boxer's legs, taking away from his footwork skills.
2. The boxer will be put in the clinch, take knees and elbows to the face and body, until he gets knocked out.
And to round things out - Royce Gracie v. Art J. UFC 1
that fight pretty much closes the argument right there.
Saturday Jul 5, 2008 02:18:39 PM
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alan 12:
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art j was hardly a world class boxer he ended his career with a 33-18 record
Monday Jul 21, 2008 05:19:46 AM
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Lord Ra:
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I enjoy both sports and recognize them as 2 different sports. Boxing and MMA are both sport. Two different kind of athelets, conditioned to fight under two different class of rules. A pure boxer would get murdered in a MMA competion and I would LOVE to see Sean Sherk step in a boxing ring with Floyd Mayweather. That great MMA stance would leave him open for bodyshoots all day.
both sports have excellent atheletes but comparing them is like saying that a basket ball foward is better than a football FB. Why can't we have both? MMA does not satisfy my desire to see skilled combatants, Boxing does not give me the agression that gets me hype.
Thursday Jul 24, 2008 12:04:55 PM
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Hank:
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Talking about street fights and Boxing, Vs. MMA. Why does everyone here seem to think a boxer is a wimp? We all know what a boxer can do. A boxer hits ten times harder than the average joe. If he connects he will knock out the MMA. But my biggest beef is what makes you all so sure a boxer CAN NOT do anything but box? Anyone who knows boxers knows they often hit the heavy bag with an elbow when it is near. Also, you don't think they wear "pillows" for no reason do you? Dude, things will break if they hit you with 4 oz gloves.
You all think Tyson would be washed up if he was grabbed? He'd swing those fist so fast at the side of a MMA head he wouldn't know what hit him. If a boxers hands are free he is going to hit - in the face, in the ribs (breaking them with 4oz gloves on), in the gut. Boxers hit so hard it knocks the other guy clean off his feet! A boxer can hit harder with his elbow also.
Boxers are fast on their feet. They can move back as the guy comes into grab them around the waist. Can you hit in the back of the head in MMA? if so,,,,,
You don't think a boxer would break the eye socket, or nose, or jaw, of anyone he punched with a 4 0z glove? A 145 pound boxer hits with 900psi of force. Gloves and hand wraps are to protect the boxers hands from BREAKING when he hits you and to help your face from breaking as well. Those are the facts. Food for thought.
Wednesday Aug 20, 2008 02:42:52 PM
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yo:
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actually they did a study on the discovery channel and bas rutten did a punching test on a dummy and hit way harder than the avg boxer. a boxer would get head kicked so fast, he wouldnt know what hit him and he would be putting his pj's on for the night.
Wednesday Oct 22, 2008 11:26:02 AM
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dom:
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loved boxing.... but over the years became board by all the bums, the fact that the top guy fights once a year, the promoters stealing all the money. crap. boxing is dead. MMA and in particular UFC. want natural talent BJ Penn, black belt jijitsu in 2 years, WC in 3. Boxers do convert to MMA and can get the odd knock out, but against the best they are destroyed. then they learn grapling for a year or 2 and come back. Anyone see Mohamed Ali verses the Karate guy 20 years ago. guy lied on the ground and kicked him in the legs for 15 years. had to drain blood form his leg. boxers no matter how good couldnt compete in MMA unless they learned some other MMA skills. Thats the beauty of it, they are always learning. Boxing is dead (dead boaring at least) long live MMA.
Wednesday Oct 29, 2008 08:13:04 AM
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dom:
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loved boxing.... but over the years became board by all the bums, the fact that the top guy fights once a year, the promoters stealing all the money. crap. boxing is dead. MMA and in particular UFC is the new boxing. want natural talent BJ Penn, black belt jijitsu in 2 years, WC in 3. Boxers do convert to MMA and can get the odd knock out, but against the best they are destroyed. then they learn grapling for a year or 2 and come back. Anyone see Mohamed Ali verses the Karate guy 20 years ago. guy lied on the ground and kicked him in the legs for 15 rounds. had to drain blood form his leg. boxers no matter how good couldnt compete in MMA unless they learned some other MMA skills. Thats the beauty of it, they are always learning. Boxing is dead (dead boaring at least) long live MMA.
Wednesday Oct 29, 2008 08:14:17 AM
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Andrew:
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There are a number of problems with boxing as a sport. The very structure of boxing is flawed. Boxing is dominated by people who need to fight for money. Generally the sport draws in the lower income warriors who see this sport as a way to both prove their manhood and as a way out of a lower social economic. This, in and of itself, is not wrong as people need a way to make a living. Unfortunately, many boxers see this as their sole way out. When a participants' vision is so myopic it helps to flaw and corrupt the system.
These fighters become pawns in the system run by corrupt men. Bribes, thrown fights, and emotionally stunted athletes are the order of the day. This is no fault of their own but they are managed by powerful men who use them as tools to make enormous sums of money.
Subsequently, many of these fighters have records that are artificially inflated. Take a look at Mike Tyson's early opponents. A real look. Look into the records of those opponents. Hand picked and unskilled to provide him with a long list of wins at no risk. A 15-0 record in boxing doesn't mean very much because there is a large number of "has beens" and "never will bees" that are fed to any boxer with moderate skills.
Skill comparison.
I would offer a thought. Every sport has an infinite number of skills to work on.
Another thought
I have never seen a college boxing match except on a Teen wolf movie. This may thin out the pool of talent a bit. There are hundreds of wrestling rooms across the country offering training to grapplers
I have been a part of wrestling and Judo since I was 5. I was a regional Judo champion and I wrestled in college. As a College athlete you are in a room with 15 state champions who train 4 hours a day about 6 days a week. Race has nothing to do with wrestling. However strength, intelligence, flexibility, speed, reflexes and skill are ALL VERY important. Wrestlers are constantly receiving instruction by world champions and Olympians. This is the best of the best teaching the best of the best.
Because of my involvement I truly think wrestlers are the toughest people on the planet. I'm biased but I am moderately educated In the other fields of combat. I will always know more about wrestling and judo than boxing. I think MMA has done some things right.
1) It offers elite athletes another way to make a living
2) Very few inflated records.
3) Lots of competitive fights to watch at each event
4) Energetic fights
5) Multiple fights in 1 night. 12 rounds of boxing takes a long time. Longer if it's a bad fight
5a) A bad mma fight lasts about 15 mins
6) A large variety of skills so there is something for everything.
Friday Nov 14, 2008 05:51:57 PM
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K.L:
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Boxers don't stand a chance against mma guys, let alone muay thai guys . A sucker punch would be their best chance.
Sunday Nov 16, 2008 11:19:41 PM
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The Comeback Kid:
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The MMA is the realest sport out there becasue it's simple if you want some just come GET SOME
Tuesday Feb 10, 2009 11:16:57 AM
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john :
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i was having the same debate today who would win out of a boxer and an mma fighter? in an anything goes fight obviously an mma fighter, doubting that would be stupid!!!, a prime example of a fighter with hand speed speed and boxing skills is vitor belfort, who quit professional boxing, besides tyson was offerd a welcomed into cage rage but denied the offer complementing the mma fighters and admiting he wouldnt stand a chance! although he did referee a match at the cage rage recently in manchester
Sunday Feb 22, 2009 01:12:27 AM
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R:
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im in agreement with having a tournement in each weight class with the top tier guys in both sports. do it in a team manner which they have to choose what guys to putin the ring or octogon on a contender show type of basis by the teams choosins. i love love both sports but id have to side with the boxers bcs once the mma fighter got in the boxing ring the shows over. their stand up game is garbage. the only way the mma would have a shot is only on the ground game which is a long shot bcs most mma fighters stick to the stand up game 50% of the time which means a boxer with smaller gloves and a guy that doesnt no how to gaurd himself.
Friday Mar 13, 2009 03:47:30 PM
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mikey mma boxer:
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Hey there Guys, great comments but I have been thinking about this vs thing for 20 yrs. I trained inmartial arts til I was 18 then started boxing and had 4 amateur bouts, won 3/4, 2 by stoppage. I learnt how to punch when I started boxing and at the time I was doing boxing training from 6pm til 8pm and then running to tae-kwon-do(red belt, one before black) and quite frankly I just started to kick too much ass that in the end I gave up TKD because it was mixed with diff ages and genders and was no longer a challenge. I had found real combat. That was back in 1989 and there was a thing called full contact karate but I headed down the boxing route. I enjoyed it but I did have a few TKD v boxing sparring sessions and the boxers were fearful of the kicks. I was the opposite because of my experience, when I was faced with kicks I used distance and hit them hard with fists - easy!
Anyway thats my background but my real point here is this. QUALITY!
Boxing has the quality and mma is on a learning curve. Imagine Edwin Valero with solid wrestling, ground game, leg kicks and take down defence - SMACK - all over for your average mma guy from today as the quality level in 'striking' is just not there in ufc/mma as yet. Check out K1 they have quality kickers and some world kickboxing organisations not forgetting of course, muay thai, they have the best quality full contact kicking training (QUALITY), put these together with olympic wrestlers and world class BJJ and then you can say boxing loses to mma. But not until then...because it is all about quality!
When you see a quality boxer, you can recognise the huge talent, the only mma fighter I have seen who comes close is Anderson Silva but his days could be numbered with Lyota Machida. At last some real quality in MMA. Bruce Lee paved the way and I used to be a huge fan so I watch all of this with greatest of interest. Where was Bruce Lee vs Muhamed ALi?? Ali fought a wrestler in Japan...
Cheers Guys, much respect to all who have contributed to these comments......
Thursday Apr 9, 2009 02:57:14 PM
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Anonymous:
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Art Jimmerson VS Royce Gracie. (That’s right kiddos, WBO and Olympic Boxer never got to fire off a punch. Look it up)
Floyd Mayweather’s (hillarious) backpeddling with immediate apology to Sean Sherk after claiming he’d knock him out in a heartbeat (that is, until they met face to face to sign the deal).
Give it a rest. The only people who don’t know by now are the dying breed of Boxer Evangelists who believe that boxing can do anything, even fuel the Earth’s core if the Sun died out. They think Boxing invented the Moon, and that the Boxing=MC2.
Boxing is the sport of punching. Nothing glorified there, cheif. It is what it is. Punching. Probably the most evolved form of punching on the planet (the doctrine I personally use in my standup game); but punching nonetheless.
To say ‘Boxing VS MMA’ is like to say Canada VS NATO; it’s about one of the most ridiculous things ever. You’re an idiot for asking, and anyone who thinks Boxing has a piss-shot in hell is about as dumbfucked as you are. It shows that you don’t know what MMA is, so we’ll start your education there, kiddo…
‘MMA’ as you so tentively put it, stansd for ‘Mixed Martial Arts’… something that incorporates many different styles of fighting. I’ll list the ones I’ve seen used to success personally…
Karate (I personally woulda called this a worthless art, but when’s the last time you saw Lyoto Machida? Chuck Liddell? I guess it just depends on the person…)
Kickboxing
Boxing
Catch/Shoot Wrestling
Gracie JuJitsu (which, I think is what you dumbfucks are calling ‘MMA’ lol, which still fucks boxing up 10/10 times… watch the early UFCs to watch A.Jimmerson get manhandled without ever being able to fire off a punch hahaha)
Muay Thai (Brutal. Period. If you don’t know, go learn)
Sambo (I personally don’t know too much about this, but from what I’ve seen it’s actually effective, doesn’t rely on mysticism or magical powers- just power and technique)
So, what we get here, is a mixture of combat-effective styles that encompass virtually every real fighting style known to man. So, it can be said, that ‘MMA’ is actually just a term to imply ‘various fighting styles’… even boxing.
Your failure is epic; about as epic as watching Floyd Mayweather see Sean Sherk and stutter while he apologized. Just, classic.
(My other favorite is when boxers fall back on Muhammad Ali to save the good name of boxing… Muhammad who also fought in an MMA event… I bet you didn’t know that did you? Good take a peek at the results of that LOL… his injuries sustained to his legs lead to the demise of his boxing career. Go learn: look up Antonio Inoki VS Muhummed Ali)
Peace bitchtits.
Friday Apr 10, 2009 08:41:55 AM
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TeeJay:
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My Bf fought in the UFC against Kimbo Slice. Hahaha.
No He Didn't Win :p
I LOVE UFC AND MMA
Monday Apr 20, 2009 09:30:20 AM
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dan:
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You take mike tyson vs chuck lidell in a ring or a octagon and tyson will knock chuck out before the first round. Now mma fighter can come close to a professioanl boxer becasue of his speed, quickness, reflexes and etc. Muhammad ali in his prime vs forrest griffin. Good luck forrest but you'll also be knocked out. People say oh once a ufc fighter gets him on the ground he's done. Yah true but boxers are so quick that it won't happen. If a ufc fighter was cornered in the ring expect 15 hooks in the face. Oh I forgot to say, the boxer gets the same type of gloves as the mma fighter. (8oz.) No chance for ufc!
Friday May 8, 2009 12:21:15 PM
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Chuck-Steak:
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^
I
I
Dan, you are full of misconceptions. MMA fighters have speed, quickness and reflexes. A boxer would most likely win a boxing match and an MMA fighter would most likely win a MMA match. As for takedowns, how many boxers train to defend the takedown? Have you ever seen how fast and explosive olympic wrestlers are when going for a take down? I'm not saying a boxer would be taken down every time, but to think they would never be taken down is just ignorant. Go watch Ali vs. Inoki. And that was a joke of a fight because Ali demanded rule changes last minute to disallow Inoki from taking him down to grapple. Now why would Ali what that rule change last minute? Because he knew if he got taken to the groud it was over for him. Now you said a true boxer would never ghet taken down (or do you not consider Ali a true boxer?) yet "The Greatest" was affraid of Inoki taking him down.This made that fight very lopsidded in favor of Ali and yet Ali couldn't even knock out the japanese Pro-Wrestler. How do you explain that?
Wednesday May 20, 2009 08:44:33 AM
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Blah Blah:
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Maybe coz Inoki was lying flat on the ground for about 99% of that fight trying to kick on Ali's legs.
Sunday May 24, 2009 02:25:48 AM
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dave:
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i have seen a boxer using only his fists take out 3 black belts in a street fight-all over in 10 seconds-mma fighter wouldn't have a chance against a good boxer
Sunday May 24, 2009 03:36:09 AM
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Anonymous user:
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don't care what ye say. Put some real greats such as 20 year old Mike Tyson, the Baddest Man On The Planet, against a UFC guy on a street and the ufc will be ko d in 10 secs. Its gonna b so predictable, ufc guy tries to knee tyson in the face, tyson catches him, bites both of his ears off and then knocks his head right in.
I'm white and im no rascist, but ufc is just a bunch of white losers who just cant overcome the dominating black boxers.
Tuesday May 26, 2009 02:07:01 PM
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Continentalop:
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Five things: 1) no mma fighter has faced the punching power and hand speed of a top notch pro boxer. Why? Because a pro boxer spends all his time developing one thing, boxing ability. A olympian who focuses on the 100 m dash is going to be faster than a decathlete who focuses on 10 events; 2) at the same time no boxer has ever faced going to the ground. You think college and olympic wrestlers are slow when they shoot on you? A boxer might be surprised to find himself on the ground before he knows it; 3) why should a mma fighter have to take a boxer on in the ring? It they fight it should be in a mma match because fighters are claiming their sport is superior. If a european fencer claims he is the best swords man he should just take on a kendo expert and his katana, he shouldn't force the guy to fight with a rapier and obey fencing rules. He is taking him out of his element; 4) Personally, I think boxing is the best individual skill you can develop and that if a top-notch boxer decided to train in mma, learning how to stuff takedowns and basic grappling and bjj, he could dominate. Having said that the idea that a guy who knows only boxing would kill a mma is ridiculous. The boxer would only win if the mma fighter lets him dictate the fight. If you are in battle and your opponent is armed wit ha HMG you don't rush him, you either get a M24 and shoot him at a distance, or you get behind cover and lobs grenades at him. You change your tactics to fit the circumstances. A boxer is only equipped for one type of fight - fist to fist. A smart MMA fighter will never stand and go toe-to-toe when he can shoot him and take him down where a boxer is helpless. I'm not saying a boxer couldn't win - he might very well and I wouldn't be surprised - but to think a mma fighter couldn't throw something at him he has never seen is just wishful thinking; 5) anyone who thinks mma is bs should write to his congressmen because the government wasted millions training me and others in MAC, which is based on many facets from mma.
Wednesday Jun 17, 2009 11:22:08 PM
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JOSEPH SERRANO:
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LISTEN,ive been around mma and boxing my entire life. and i can clearly say there is nothing like a skilled elite boxer.ufc is nothing but a fad that wil soon die out.i dont care what mma fans cry about when they say that mma fighters can box because they absoulutly cant!and they half ass on every other stlye f fighting.you want to see a real skilled elite boxer goe to work? watch fights featuring Roy Jones,Wilfredo Benitez,Sugar Ray.,Floyd Mayweather etc thats boxing,thats skill. not that sloppy stiff one two crap u see those brawlers in ufc doing. and all because they hit a bag or throw a jab does not mean that all of a sydden they can box.MMA is completly overated. and its proven that any body with even the least bit of good punching is at the top of ufc. now imagine what a skilled elite boxer would do.oh, and mma fans dont give me that bull lecture about the whole ''take down'' myth.no sloppy mma fighter would even be able to get close to a skilled smart boxer that knows what he is doing.and if any mma fighter dares to go in for a shoot any smart boxer would easliy pick them off and give the mma fighter angles.Also,Chuck Lidell cant box for shit.and he destroyed couture and couture couldnt even attempt a take down because he was eating punches. now,if chuck liddel can throw his slow motion sloppy looping punches and dominate couture,imagine what a skilled elite boxer would do.mma is just an easy way out for guys who dont have the skill needed or dicipline for boxing.Oh, and Boxing is not dying what so ever.Second dont lecture me either about how shity jujittsu is effective against a boxer.because it isnt.Royce gracie demonstrated jujittsu on either ufc bums,or guys who boxed but sucked and were not skilled boxers. because gracie would never,ever,ever get away with diving in on a skilled elite boxer.Any smart boxer would wait,step back and drop a straight right or left on gracie then give an angle which would leave gracie flat on his face.any way he lost to a bumb called Matt Hughe nuff said.................so about the whole ''mma guys can box ''j lmaoo come on people who are you kidding ? listen, all because an mma fighter makes it to the big time and is on tv they tend to hire a boxing coach to slightly improve there punching. but thats it! does that mean they can box? HECK NO! Does that mean they can go against an elite boxer? HECK NO NOT EVEN CLOSE!.Besides most of those guys in UFC AND MMA are 28 to 37 year old men who hire a boxing coach just to have a slight advantage over their fellow mma opponent thats all. TO BECOME A SKILLED BOXER YOU MUST DEDICATE YOUR ENTIRE LIFE TO BOXING FROM A VERY YOUNG AGE..BOXING IS A TRUE ART AND A SPORT THAT TAKES SKILL,SMARTS AND TALENT..ALSO NO BODY TRULY UNDERSTANDS BOXING AT ALL..THERE IS NO LIMIT TO THE SKILL LEVEL IN BOXING,EVERY NOW AND THEN YOU GET A BOXER WHO HAS A STYLE AND SKILL THAT NO ONE HAS EVER SEEN BEFORE...AND EACH BRING THERE OWN WAYS OF BOXING TO THE RING......SO IM TIRED OF PEOPLE SAYING MMA IS THIS OR THAT . ITS NOTHING,AND BOXING HAS BEAT EVERY CRIDICT THROUGHT HISTORY,AND UFC IS JUST ANOTHER OBSTACLE BOXING WILL OVER COME.BOXING IS HERE FOREVER DEAL WITH IT.............ALSO FROM MY PIONT OF VIEW AS A FIGHTER UFC IS A REAL JOKE.THEY HAVE A COMEDIAN TURNED MESENGER BOY (JOE ROGAN) LOL AS THERE DEFENDER, AND A BUNCH OF GARBAGE SLOPPY FIGHTERS..ALONG WITH EITHER DRUNK,OR TEEN AGE FANS. LOL I LOOK AT UFC WITH GREAT AMUSEMENT AND ANY BODY WITH COMMON SENSE WOULD AGREE..
BOXING IS HERE TO STAY
Monday Aug 3, 2009 07:42:52 AM
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joe from omaha:
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I hope MMA dies out. They seem to have taken a lot from "All Star Wrestling" with some of the out of the ring antics.
Wednesday Aug 12, 2009 06:18:47 PM
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favr:
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Seriously all your opinions on how a ufc guy will take a boxer down is absolute BS. I'd love to see you take down Ali in his prime, you'd get every tooth broken in your mouth. Yeah if you're Karelin then you have a great chance, because Karelin is a beast and he trained his whole life in takedowns. Saying some white guys can grab each other's legs and pull them from under each other means UFC is better than Boxing is absolutely ridiculous. Mayweather was right, white americans just get so pissed that they cant break through the black/hispanic/eastern european opposition, they run off to form something more brutal just to prove that they are manly. Coined Bruce Lee to their fad aswell, how fery smart of them! Lee would have died of laughter if he ever saw UFC. Now if a load of Ukrainians come in and take over UFC then americans will run off and set up something else... I'm not saying boxing is the best martial art out there, not at all, but I'm 100% sure that boxing kills ufc. Or any other martial art for that matter, whethers its judo or sambo or taekwando, they will all kill ufc.
Monday Aug 17, 2009 01:52:33 PM
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Fight Fan:
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Man, first of all most you need to check your spelling, its hard to understand your arguments if I can barely read them. One main difference between the two is first off where you put your hands. They cannot be as high as in traditional muay thai, nor can they be placed too close to the face like some western boxers. Obviously if your hands are higher, you are more susceptible to a takedown. One must posture lower too depending on standing height (taller means you have to hunch down more). The hands can be placed both to the cheek like a western boxer, but in my opinion this is not the most favorable. "Pushing" or stiff arming an aggressive striker in MMA is better done with hands further away from the face. Against a very aggressive flurry, guarding the face as in boxing with tiny little gloves is going to get you seriously hurt (see Rampage Jackson vs. Silva).
Because the gloves are smaller, the punches tend to fly faster (try boxing with 20oz gloves, then try it with just handwraps or with 4oz MMA gloves and you will immediately notice a difference in speed). This also means a tight guard will only cover a smaller percentage of your face. Guarding and moving about while in the danger zone is a sure way to get hurt (see Tito vs. Chuck Liddell when Tito covers up but doesn't move out of the danger zone). In boxing you can cover up and move your glove and arms about to block body shots head shots with the glove, forearm and elbow quite effectively. BLOCKING IS MUCH LESS EFFECTIVE IN MMA. The punches are faster, and the chances of glove hitting glove decreases significantly with smaller gloves.
Another difference: Because there is less cushioning on the gloves and because most hits are going to be undeflected (in boxing the likelihood of the glove deflecting even slightly off a glove is very high given their very large sizes) most hits are going to be more powerful overall. In addition, the small area of contact translates to fight ending bone breaks or fight-deciding eye swells (see cro cop vs silva where his eye is completely swollen shut), and (cro cop vs. Sapp where the orbital bone is broken). Forearm blocks can be seriously damaging to someone doing the block (can numb the entire arm).
This extra power means that MOVING OUT OF THE WAY IS FAVORED OVER BLOCKING much more so than in boxing. Thus boxers and kickboxers who know how to move away or back (rather than blocking frequently) tend to do better in MMA than those that have a habit of blocking.
Getting out of the way usually means one of five things: Closing the distance and clinching (over under, double underhooks, Thai collar), shooting for a take down, moving/rocking back, moving side to side, or changing horizontal positioning. Each has its strengths and weaknesses.
Usually when one is getting dominated in the standup, or if one is stunned from a few good strikes, closing the gap and either clinching or shooting for a leg is the smartest thing to do (unless it is anticipated).
Moving back is a risky move because it takes the power out of each punch, and if an opponent is able to punch out an accurate flurry, one might find himself in trouble (see Wanderlei vs. Vitor Belfort). Some fighters can peddle backwards and still throw knockout punches (Liddell vs. Babalu). Rocking back in particular requires great balance and a good grappler will capitalize on the lack of balance. Overall rocking back and retreating is probably harder to utilize in MMA than in boxing because balance is even more important in MMA than in boxing. Stiff-arming or pushing off with the jab hand while moving back is definately better than simply moving back with the hands at guard position. The arm can be used to deflect a punch, and hooks generally lack the reach if a stiff-arm/push is executed properly. Generally taller fighters with greater reach are going to have a better chance at maintaining a safe distance with the push. Shorter fighters are probably not going to use any kind of stiff arm or push as overhands and haymakers may still land. For a typical look at an effective push while moving out of the danger zone, see Mirko Filipovic's fights (he uses his front stiff arm very very frequently to maintain proper distance).
Moving side to side, OR circling used in conjunction with moving back and forth is still a very useful technique. Moving back and forth is not as bad as described above if mixed in with circling and stiff-arming. Quick circling allows a standup fighter to not get pinned against a corner or a wall. Cutting off the ring against an opponent, or alternately circling out of a corner to disallow your opponent from cutting off your ring is very very important in MMA as it is in boxing. A striker confined to the corner or a wall has nowhere to sprawl. There is not much of a difference here between MMA and boxing. Generally controlling the center and cutting the opponents space, or defending against this by circling out is a good idea just as in boxing (see cro cop vs. fedor emelianenko). In a cage, a striker definately does not want to get pinned against a wall, as he can be slid down to the ground (Couture vs Liddell 1; Couture vs. Belfort). In a ring, a pin against the corner can frequently lead to a stalemate (knees to the thighs, short powerless strikes to the head, no way to really slide an opponent down). For a fighter pinning an opponent to the corner, the best bet might be in feinting a takedown, then pushing away and unleashing a flurry of shots to the head. Going too low for a leg while not pressing an opponent down can be dangerous as knees can land decisively to the head.
Finally in boxing you see a lot of bobbing and weaving and ducking. Moving vertically up and down to avoid shots is a good idea as long as the opponent is not known to throw effective knee strikes. A fighter known to use traditional Western boxing bobbing and weaving (or similar techniques like rolling in to throw hooks) is Rampage Jackson. Against an opponent who throws mostly head shots and very little knees, this is a very effective technique set (see Jackson vs. Liddell). However, rolling, ducking and bobbing makes one more vulnerable to knee strikes and getting pressed down with a Thai clinch (which is why in Muay Thai matches you see much less bobbing and weaving). An MMA fighter is better off using less bobbing and weaving against a fighter known to have devastating knees and superior Thai clinch skills (see Rampage vs. Silva or Rampage vs Rua).
Against a Thai clinch, the best bet is to push out hard, clinch with double underhooks very tight by advancing forward, or pummeling quickly for an inside Thai clinch. Inserting the forearm to raise the elbow works to loosen a Thai clinch and to put an arm between an opponents knee and your face, but it is only a last resort escape. Generally though, bobbing and weaving against a fighter with devastating knees is not the best idea. CONCLUSION: BOBBING AND WEAVING CAN BE DANGEROUS AGAINST A SKILLED KICKER/KNEE-TECHNICIAN.
The most important difference other than the fact that boxers are not going to be trained for kicks and takedowns is the idea that power punches should not be blocked. In boxing a cross that is loaded up and not crisp or a haymaker can easily be blocked. Every punch is faster in MMA, and every punch is harder to block. Thus moving out of the way of a haymaker is a must. Because power punches have a greater chance of landing in MMA vs. boxing, strikers in MMA are correct in sacrificing a BIT of speed or a bit of accuracy for added power. Why? If two fighters are slugging it out, and one fighter is landing more crisp punches because he has a 'clean' boxing style, and the other fighter is throwing slightly slower, slightly less crisp punches, but each shot with knockout power, in boxing the sloppy fighter is going to land none of his punches despite each fighter standing in the other's danger zone because haymakers and telegraphed crosses can easily be blocked while the other hand is landing crisp punches. However in MMA, you often see a crisp striker land a flurry of clean shots, but each lacking knockout power, the slugger knocks the crisp striker out with one or two haymakers or loaded crosses. CONCLUSION: IN BOXING THE EMPHASIS IS GREATLY PLACED ON ACTUALLY LANDING A PUNCH WITH BOTH FIGHTERS WEARING LARGE GLOVES. IN MMA THERE IS LESS OF A HINDERANCE IN ACTUALLY LANDING A PUNCH, THUS POWER MUST BE EMPHASIZED MORE.
Of course it is not suggested that one throw all haymakers. Jabs are still very useful in setting up combinations. However, if you watch the successful MMA strikers, Takanori Gomi, Chuck Liddell, Fedor Emelianenko, Mirko Filipovic, you will see that they have one thing in common: They make each shot count, and they care less about landing a series of crisp punches. Mirko Filipovic has probably the most crisp standup out of this list; however, in K1 he was known to put full weight into each punch thus being unable to throw crisp 3-4 hit combinations in K1 (compare to Ernesto Hoost or Andy Hug who threw more shots when inside). Mirko has always picked spots to throw a single hard cross or a powerful one-two. Up to a degree, one can improve crispness, speed, power, and accuracy; however there is undoubtedly a tradeoff. Haymakers are the most powerful, slowest (counting from first motion to landing), and possibly the least accurate punch in MMA.
Wednesday Aug 19, 2009 04:45:02 PM
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josh:
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MMA at this point is all skills and training based, not talent based. you take a world class boxer, give him a crash course on grappling, and he will dominate MMA.
Saying that giving a world class boxer a crash course of grappling and he would dominate mma is the most idotic thing ive ever heard. It takes years to understand and become good at wrestling a jiu jitsu. These MMA fighters who are so good on the ground have been grappling their whole lives. A guy who gets a crash course of grappling would get submitted or pounded on because he wouldnt know how to react to the grapplers knowledge. Boxers who have entered MMA havent done so well in the top organizations and the reason is because they get taken down and get beaten on. Boxings a great sport but its one dimensional and thats what makes MMA so beautiful. If you want to be good you have to put years or hard work and dedication in boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, and bjj you cant just expect to take a 1 year crash course in grappling and think you can compete with the world champion bjj guys and the NCAA wrestling champs.
Wednesday Nov 4, 2009 05:24:55 PM
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zenitram:
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mma vs boxing--------come on now, boxing is boxing--mma is mma---- apples and oranges. One will pick the one they like for what ever reason. i myself have boxed- so thats what i like. why compare two entirely different sports---------both of the sports require skill--------we can bash the pros and cons all night, but bottom line is if u like boxing----------well than u do. i like both myself for 10 different reasons-----------though i love boxing, boxing not so good regarding picking a winner at decision time, right now because the organizations allow people who know nothiing of the sport to judge the sport---------well lets get a tennis pro to judge a swimming match- common now---------mma-- there is not much use for a judge-- i love that part--------------dude wins by ko or submission========boom there it is
Monday Nov 9, 2009 04:54:05 PM
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eckiume:
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I use to like UFC better when it actually was a tournament and an all out tournament at that. Royce gracie at 160 punds would come in and subdue guys much bigger than him. I hate that they stopped letting him use his karate- gee
Tuesday Nov 10, 2009 10:51:24 AM
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2009 Reader Of The Year Weighs In On Legacies Of Pacquiao And Mayweather
"Pacquiao has proven....in the ring... time and time again that he is the greatest of this time. He has earned his respect. He begs for nothing. He is a man content with his growth, his family and his achievements. A man the world has now turned it's eyes to behold. Floyd Mayweather is not even close in stature. He may possess the greatest skills but he is not the Face of Boxing today. Google Manny Pacquiao. There are 20 million searches. Google Floyd. There are 6.5 million. Look at the NYTimes, the Wall Street Journal and Time. Count how many words were used these past years to mention Floyd Mayweather. Then count the words still being printed about Manny. And keep counting. As I've said many times, Floyd has been too clever by half. He has short changed his public.....and has out-smarted himself. Manny will fight but a few more times. Enjoy it while you can. He is an all time great pugilist. Floyd, with all of his remarkable skills lack the will to be truly great in the biggest sense of the word. His legacy will look more like Holmes that Ali. He has earned it." ---November is half-way gone, but we don't need to keep counting ballots. It's a landslide. Fe'Roz has won the 2009 Reader of the Year award. His comments add to the website immeasurably, and he epitomizes the thoughtful, respectful, educated fan of pugilism we strive to cater to at TSS. Congrats, Fe'Roz, and please accept my thanks for being the valued member of this community that you are. Sincerely, Editor Mike
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