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Liddell vs. Couture


Wednesday May 4, 2005

"That energy is pretty amazing," said Couture, who was weaned on Sugar Ray Leonard and Marvelous Marvin Hagler. "There's no way to be involved and not feel it."

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Boxing vs. UFC

By Tim Graham

Never before had I watched it. Not in person. Not on television. I frankly didn't have a smidgeon of concern if I ever saw an Ultimate Fighting Championship event.

But there I was in Las Vegas two weeks ago, having returned to my old stamping grounds to cover suspended heavyweight Joe Mesi's hearing with the Nevada State Athletic Commission's medical advisory board. I arrived a few days early to visit some old friends and to make sure all my old haunts still served their beer cold.

A big UFC pay-per-view show was taking place in the MGM Grand Garden, and NSAC executive director Marc Ratner, having learned of my UFC virginity, suggested I drop by to give the sport a chance. Seeing as how my liver was begging me for a night off, I decided to drop by the Grand Garden to catch some of the action and perhaps gain enough material to write a first-person account of UFC from a hardboiled boxing fan's perspective.

The event I attended was UFC 52.

No. 53 couldn't come soon enough, and I've been hunting for copies of the first 51.

I know there are tons more folks out there like me who've been reluctant to give mixed martial arts an honest look. Time to let down your guard and stop being such a curmudgeon.

The exhilaration of UFC matched that of a Las Vegas megabout, blow for blow. A high-voltage crowd of 14,562 filled the Grand Garden Arena - those are old Mike Tyson numbers - to see a highly anticipated rematch between Chuck Liddell and Randy Couture for the light heavyweight championship.

"That energy is pretty amazing," said Couture, who was weaned on Sugar Ray Leonard and Marvelous Marvin Hagler. "There's no way to be involved and not feel it."

Sometimes UFC isn't the best sport to watch live because you can miss the finer points once the fighters end up in a heap, but the action can make boxing look stale by comparison. Had you watched a steady diet of UFC before catching Saturday night's bout between James Toney and John Ruiz, you might turn off boxing forever.

I'm not that guy. Boxing will always be tops in my book. But now I understand UFC's allure.

Boxing, in a strict athletic sense, is pure. The fighters punch each other from the waist up on the ventral side. Anything else is a foul.

UFC is far coarser and more complicated. Fighters use a variety of disciplines such as jiu-jitsu, aikido, sambo and wrestling. For the untrained eye it can be difficult to enjoy the finer points. Sometimes the guy on the bottom is winning. But you don't have to be able to recognize a neck crank, a guillotine or a rear naked choke to feel the drama.

"There's been a resistance to learning or trying to understand it," said UFC spokesman Jack Taylor. "Traditionalists don't want to believe it or accept it as a sport."

To me, UFC represented a bit of professional wrestling. It all seemed a little too out there. Two guys wearing Speedos and going at it in an eight-sided cage felt a little too theatrical.

"If you watch it you realize very quickly there's nothing scripted about it, nothing choreographed or staged," Couture said. "It's very real, very gritty."

That was clear to me shortly after I located my seat and became enthralled by the undercard bouts.

Matt Lindland, the Greco Roman wrestling silver medalist from the 2000 Olympics, summed up his middleweight victory over jujitsu practitioner Travis Lutter: "He was tying me up and made it hard to hit him. So I decided to choke him instead."

Ahem.

It sure felt like Lindland's hand was around my trachea during the next match, but it merely was my heart in my throat.

In the opening seconds, welterweight champ Matt Hughes was moments away from losing to Frank Trigg. The referee didn't see Trigg had kneed Hughes in the nether region. As Hughes grabbed his manhood and spit out his mouthpiece to complain, Trigg pounced and began to waylay.

Hughes somehow gathered himself and in wonderfully dramatic fashion bear hugged Trigg around the waist, lifted him off the mat, marched him across the ring like a dummy, slammed him down and administered a rear naked choke.

Trigg tapped out.

I was agog.

Suffice to say, boxers have a rather dismal track record in mixed martial arts competitions. In UFC, a boxer heading into the octagon would be like dropping a goldfish into a meat grinder. 

Since "standing and striking," as UFCers call it, is only one element of the sport, boxers struggle.

"From their perspective it looks easy," Couture said. "They think about their skill set and say 'I'll just knock this guy out before he puts me on the ground.' A lot of times, when you face somebody who's going to shoot and take you down, you don't realize how difficult that is to stop somebody from doing it."

UFC continues to grow and will get even bigger as it gains more widespread acceptance across the country. It's sanctioned in Florida, Louisiana, Nevada and New Jersey and at the Mohegan Sun in Connecticut. It's close to being sanctioned in California.

And for frustrated boxing fans there's plenty to like about UFC's business model. There are only five weight classes, and the whole operation is under one roof. That means the best will fight each other. There are no promoter shenanigans, no ratings politics, no inflated records. Even the greatest fighters have multiple losses. Couture has seven. Liddell has three. Hughes has four.

"Nobody fights bums or dogs in the UFC," Taylor said.

Amen to that.

                                                          * * *

BURNING QUESTIONS: Am I the only one who thinks Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. looks like a frightened 5-year-old who has just been dropped off for his first day of kindergarten?

Whatever happened to Magic Johnson's career as boxing's promotional savior?

Why can't the WBC learn how to spell Lamon Brewster's name correctly?

Sulaiman & Co. have been calling him "Lamont" for years.

TONEY NO PHONEY: The fight wasn't wildly entertaining, but Toney proved he belongs among the heavyweight elite with his decisive triumph over the WBA champ. Ruiz, as much as his style makes me vomit, has always been underrated. Toney toyed with Ruiz all night. The little man wore down the big man and sent him into retirement. Toney would have trouble with Vitali Klitschko's range, but it's not hard to imagine him beating anyone else in the division.

CHIP OFF THE OL' COBB: I guess Larry Holmes hit Randall "Tex" Cobb so hard his kids came out dizzy. That's how unsteady on his feet Josh Cobb looked Friday night in his second pro bout. The 19-year-old heavyweight was huffing and puffing in his ugly TKO-3 loss to Javier Diaz on ESPN2's show from the Union Plaza in Las Vegas. I wonder how many witnesses vowed never again to watch boxing.

HAIL, CAESARS: I don't know of a more beautiful sports setting than outdoor boxing at Caesars Palace. To see the Sweet Science applied under the gloaming, with the famous hotel and its neon sign in the background, is as comforting as a phone call from mom.

QUOTEMARKS: "I always treated everybody with respect, but they didn't treat me the same way. It hurts me to walk away like this. I grew up in boxing. It's sad for me to put it this way, but boxing was the sport I loved. Now it's the sport I hate." - Ruiz to The Boston Globe after losing to Toney.

"I doubt he has the balls to fight Samuel. If he did, it would give me great pleasure to watch Sam beat the hell out of him." - Samuel Peter's promoter, Dino Duva, on Toney.

"I am looking to see if he really does have the power to knock me down, to knock me out. We have to go up in the ring and find out. I think I am strong enough to take his punch and we will find out who really is the strongest guy up there." - Jose Luis Castillo on fighting Diego Corrales on Saturday night.

FAREWELL, JACK: Some newspapers listed his age at 80. The Associated Press said he was 76. Nobody could locate any survivors. Everybody who came into contact with Jack Welsh considered him a friend, but few really knew him. Welsh passed away last week. He died in his sleep shortly after attending ESPN's pay-per-view show at Caesars Palace.

I was one of those boxing writers who thought he knew Jack. He was ubiquitous when it came to boxing, writing for such publications as The Ring, Boxing Monthly, Flash Update and Gaming Today, as well as Showtime's website. He was at ringside, the news conferences, the weigh-ins, the media junkets to places like Big Bear, California. He always had a smile on his face and a story for any occasion. I enjoyed being around him.

But Jack also lived a lonely existence. He was a recovering alcoholic who lived alone and didn't always have enough money to handle his bills. But Jack always had his benefactors - whether they wrote his stories for him back in the day while he was on a bender, or they helped pay the rent in recent years - and there will be a special place reserved for them in the afterlife for their kindness.

I remember the night I met Jack. It was 1994 and I was a cub reporter for the Lorain Morning Journal dispatched to Las Vegas to cover hometown boy Carl "Stuff" Griffith against Oscar De La Hoya. Here I was, in the belly of the beast for the first time, my first trip to Vegas, covering my first major boxing event. Jack must've seen the intimidation on my face because he made it a point to come over and say hello and welcome me to the city that eventually would become my home for five years.

After Roy Jones obliterated Toney in the main event, Jack introduced me to a group of boxing writers who allowed me to tag along for drinks at the Four Kegs on Tropicana Avenue. I sat there with Mike Katz, Ed Schuyler, Royce Feour, Tim Dahlberg, Robert Seltzer, Joe Maxse, Jim Hunter and others I can't recall through the haze. As Jack Welsh had done earlier, they enraptured me with tales of the Sweet Science. The beer and booze came in waves.

I have been a boxing fan, and frequently sloshed, ever since.

Welcome to the business, kid.

And thank you, Jack, for ushering me there.


Contact Tim Graham @ TheSweetScience.com


Michael:  I\'m a fan of boxing and Mixed Martial Arts (the official name for the sport that the UFC is a part of). I don\'t see them as mutually exclusive sports at all, far from it in fact. MMA has lots of boxing incorporated into it, so there\'s no reason why a boxing fan could not at least enjoy the stand up game in MMA, and vice versa. I think you\'ll find that a lot of MMA fans are into boxing as well, it\'s like having the best of both worlds. I love all combat sports.
Monday Nov 6, 2006
Anonymous user:  I am tired of all this shit Floyd Maywether and Sean Sherk need to fight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thursday May 31, 2007
Anonymous user:  They sould set up a series of fights between mma and boxing. The top athletes in each weight class from both should be matched up. Then the should have to have both a boxing match and a mma match. it would take alot of time, but also it would make tons of money and everyonewould love to see it happen..
Wednesday Nov 28, 2007
truth b. told:  MMA at this point is all skills and training based, not talent based. you take a world class boxer, give him a crash course on grappling, and he will dominate MMA. try it the other way around, and the MMA figther will get knocked out. A big reason for the popularoty of MMA is that there are always fights between supposedly top guys, whereas in boxing there are 3-4 big fights a year. Also, at the risk of sounding cynical, I think the fact that MMA is now a white-dominated sport, with a high percetage of white combatants, whereas boxing is dominated by blacks and hispanics, accounts for the growing appeal of MMA.
Thursday Dec 13, 2007
Anonymous user:  another important diff. boxing uses much more padding on their gloves, MMA striked are precise and deadly, boxing lets everything go leaving the MMA fight to land a much more precise and damaging blow
Monday Dec 17, 2007
Mihai:  I am also a boxing and MMA fan. The pool of MMA fighters is somewhat limited therefore their quality as fighters is hard to determine. Boxing has given over the years legendary fights and champions, that is mostly due to the fact that they came a very long way to reach the top and that they ascended from a very wide range of fighters. Although very entertaining and tough I cannot think of any great MMA fight in the past ten years, I have seen good fights even some memorable, but none great. I think UFC is 100% show oriented, and that's good. The fighters are muscular, tatooed and make scary faces. But as your interest into the sport grows you see there's not much else to it. Most fighters are presented as former champions of, I don't know what, but 99% of them are nobodies. I don't hold that against them, I'm a nobody too. Nevertheless many of them are great even in their willingness to get butchered in the ring. It is impossible to determine whether the fights are fixed or not. Remember it's a corporate bussiness and to me everything looks very controlled as all statements are made in a choir. No dissonant voice is heard and that makes me suspicious of the whole thing. And to finish on a more funny note, I'm also suspicious that no overweight or even slightly overweight fighters are competing in the UFC and that's statistically impossible.
Sunday Jan 6, 2008
jfisher:  MMA is popular in my opinions because it is so fast paced, but so technical at the same time. If you learn the aspects of the ground game, it becomes a chess match between two people that are trying to smash the other players head asunder. I feel like i need to adress the negativity towards the sport so here i go.. Mihai: it is not even close to be staged, if it was, it would be the WWE, you don't hear dissonant sounds because if they do make any noises that give the indication that they are hurt, the ref will call the fight because of the fact that most submissions can completely ruin you. and most fighters are college and olympic wrestlers, juijitsu champions, and K1 champions, the 'nobodys' are on the undercard. and there is a TON of overweight fighters. It is apperent that you havent seen someone tank abbot or tim silvia. truth b told: top contending boxers have tried that with MMA fighters, and the results were always the same, MMA dominated before the first round was over. MMA is a sport full of talented fighters, boxing is a sport full of talented boxers. MMA is expanding, and their are hispanics and black people fighting, im wathing the huerta vs garcia fight right now. I watched chuck lidell get knocked out by quinten jackson just before this. It is spreading, no doubt about that. Finally the gloves are lighter to enable the ground aspect of the sport. Micheal: i love watching the best fights in boxing, some of them are exciting, but the way boxing is turning out these days, they are really getting boring. I would put fedor on mayweather, he's a straight up BEAST lol, but i would seriously love to see MMA vs. Boxing, just to settle all the trash talking between the two lol
Monday Jan 21, 2008
Mike:  Boxers will ko mma fighters in a street fight 90 percent of the time. Because by the time the mma guy decides that taking his opponent to the parking lot pavement may not protect him from any hidden weapons or extra homeboys, it is too late. The reflexes of a skilled prize fitghter (100 - 200 fights), obliterates the chap. Boxing is 95 % natural reflexes and it is not how hard you get hit but how clean that counts. By the way a boxer floored and koed bj penn about a year ago at a Hawaii night club, I guess bj thought there would be one punch at a time or windmills or something, big mistake. peace, respect,
Wednesday Jan 30, 2008
Gabriel:  Well all this talk from boxers but no action? I dont see any "real" boxers, boxers with a "good name" in the octagon? For example, Mayweather, think hes afraid?
Wednesday Feb 13, 2008
Mike:  juijitsu works good in the tournaments but it is not practical on the strreet. I call the "gaurd" the "missionary position" its ridiculous to think you would pull that crap in a street fight. Unless you are fighting some one who does not know how to fight (99% of the public), you are exposing you nuts and you are one if you think your opponent won't squeeeeze you and make you cry.
Wednesday Feb 13, 2008
Gabriel:  Well all this talk from boxers but no action? I dont see any "real" boxers, boxers with a "good name" in the octagon? For example, Mayweather, think hes afraid?
Thursday Feb 14, 2008
Gabriel:  Well of course boxers CAN ko an mma fighter and but then an mma fighter can submit a boxer. Thats the whole point of mma, its more diverse than boxing and thats what makes it more exciting to watch. The thing is that they are two completely different sports so dont try to compare apples to oranges. Also who cares about street fights. Anyone can snicker someone and besides theres no rules in street fighting. In the ring and in the octagon there are rules and there are hearts, the biggest heart will win. The beauty of mma is that there are more ways to win than by knoking the opponent out.
Thursday Feb 14, 2008
Gabriel:  Well of course boxers CAN ko an mma fighter and but then an mma fighter can submit a boxer. Thats the whole point of mma, its more diverse than boxing and thats what makes it more exciting to watch. The thing is that they are two completely different sports so dont try to compare apples to oranges. Also who cares about street fights. Anyone can snicker someone and besides theres no rules in street fighting. In the ring and in the octagon there are rules and there are hearts, the biggest heart will win. The beauty of mma is that there are more ways to win than by knoking the opponent out.
Thursday Feb 14, 2008
Michael Carter:  "UFC is far coarser and more complicated. Fighters use a variety of disciplines such as jiu-jitsu, aikido, sambo and wrestling. " Sorry to be a pedant, but Aikido has never been applied successfully in MMA, least of all the UFC.
Wednesday Mar 5, 2008
Ben:  You can't compare the sports of boxing and MMA because they require entirely different skill sets. Its like comparing nascar to formula 1 racing. They both use cars, but the cars are used in different ways (ones a course the other is driving in a circle). Boxing is a fight SPORT and people should remember that. Boxers wear their shorts up high to limit the area an opponent can hit ( nothing below the belt remember). And some fighters try to get away with covering their kidneys with their shorts. If a boxer could he'd have them up around his arm pits. Boxers are also forced to wear 12-16 ounce gloves on their hands. Its like fighting with pillows on. Boxers also by and large only have to worry about being punched. That's it. Yes , they can be knocked out, but seriously it takes ROUNDS and ROUNDS of being hit before that usually happens. MMA is a different animal. You have smaller gloves, so fighters can't cover up like boxers do. Why? Because the punches get through when you don't have 12 to 16 ounce MICKEY MOUSE hands stopping them. Mixed Martial artists aren't the greatest boxers in the world , because they don't have to be. THERE IS MORE TO FIGHTING THAN THROWING A PUNCH. Don't forget in MMA ( in the USA at least) you can Elbow, Knee, Kick, Slam, Kick a man when he is down ( only in the body) Choke, and Punch your opponent. You can also use submissions (which I know everyone hates but they work, so shut up). In Japan and Brazil you can even kick a man while he is down in the head , and elbow to the spine and back of the head. MMA is a Street fight that is trying to be a sport. While Boxing is a sport that people think is a street fight. America should wake up and realize there is more to fighting than the big right hand and the cowboy swing. When it does, MMA will sky rocket in popularity. So yes, take a MMA guy and try to make him play by boxings rules and he'll probably lose. Why? Cause he's just lost 90% of the weapons he's used to fighting with and now has to stand there and slug it out like a jackass. Put a boxer in a MMA fight ( or even a kick boxing/ Muay Thai fight for Christ's Sake) and he'll LOSE BIG because he's got more than just fists to worry about. It takes a lot more training to be a MMA Athlete than a boxer. Boxers don't Fight for 5 minute rounds. They don't have to be good Wrestlers, Submission fighters, and Boxers all at the same time ( During the same match mind you). So I say this to Boxers and boxing fans. If you think its so easy, shut up and get into an octagon or you local jujitsu school and see how easy it is. After being beaten and humiliated for a couple hours you'll have a little more respect. Enjoy your SPORT and I'll enjoy watching a FIGHT. Thank you.
Monday Mar 10, 2008
Paul:  The reason that very talented boxers do not even consider MMA is because there's no payoff. MMA fighters don't earn squat. SO why go through the years of training to learn how to deal with grapplers and submissions when it doesn't pay. Reverse the question now. There is a lot of potential money to earn in boxing. So how come world class amateur wrestlers and martial arts experts don't go into boxing? Are there examples? They certainly have financial incentives to do so. My guess is that they don't have the punching power, hand-speed or chin stamina that are needed in boxing. Bring the money and the athletes who are naturally fit for boxing will gravitate to MMA. And the quality of the strikers will greatly improve in MMA. The sport will grow up from the roll and submit scuffles it is now.
Friday Apr 25, 2008
Casey:  I have been a fan of both boxing and MMA for a while now and it is no contest which one is more entertaining, its MMA. On boxing u never know what your going to get. If your lucky u might get to see a Gatti vs. Ward type of fight, but a lot of the time you see to guys pussy footing around half the fight and only a few moments of action. This happens a lot with some big name fights. Fights that you have to pay $50 on PPV to see and it could be a huge dissapointment and a waste of money. I rather watch Spike TV and see the ultimate fighter and Other UFC events, you know the type of fights you would usally have to pay to see. I know you have pay to see some really goods fights, but at least the UFC cares enough about its fans to throw them a bone every now and then. I know if i watch a MMA fight I know I have a good chance of seeing a knockout or a submission and if it does go the distance it is usually a hell of a fight because that dosen't happen that often. Also I don't have to pay so theres no risk . One other that really bothers me about people comparing MMA to boxing is that people see boxing as a work of art a "Sweet Science" as it is often referred as. Whereas the UFC and Other MMA organization are often Called barbaric, savage, and I even heard it being refered to human cockfighting. First off these men who are MMA fighters are highly trained and disiplined in there particular Martial art style and its often more than one style there trained in. ESPN and other sports news center make it seem like there are just two guys throw in a cage to kill each other when they are highly trained athletes, athletes in a sport that demands them to be in top phisically condition and for them to be extremley mentally tough more so than any other sport. You think they would be praised for there ability, but instead there ridiculed because of the ignorence of the people who talk about the sport. Finally i hate hearing about how dangerous MMA is. It is a lot Safer to be knockout early than it is to be taking a beating to the head round after round like in boxing. Thats why fighters in boxing get brain damage and in some cases even die from the abuse they take in the ring. Unfortunatly for boxing it is a dying sport and MMA is getting stronger each day, its only a matter of time before boxing is engulfed by the world of MMA because make no doubt it is here to stay.
Wednesday May 7, 2008
adam:  When compairing mma and boxing you have to realise that boxing is a sport that is based on talent and athletic abilaty. mma is is mainly two very tough guy beating on each other. A point to back this up is that when looking at the win loss records even the top pound for pound mma fighters do tend to have lost a few fights. this seems to resemble the win loss records of boxings old days from its bear knuckel days to the pre war era,when the sport was considerable more dangerous. the win lose records also show that a fair part of mma is luck, if you are on top on the floor you are always in a winning position. and on a personal not it is not a sport when you can mount someone and punch them repetadle in the face, in my opinion it is in no way entertaining to see someone being struck when on the ground. even in the the 1600s when boxing was first becoming popular since roman times, the londonderry rules (which were changed for the queensberry rules) were in many ways alot safer. but to be fair to mma, their are alot less cases of brain damage in mma than boxing this is to do with the weight of the gloves and the lenth of the fight, but more people die in horse racing than any other sport so that the consiquences of the sport are less important to this perticular agument of what is better entertainment wise. when it comes down to it the only opinion that I can have is that mma is a very crude fighting sport and I take no pleasure in watching it, although I do feel that people do have a right to watch or participate if they feel compeled to. I do feel that boxing is a fighting sport that have evolved over hundreds of years to become the ultimate sport where human animalistick naturer is conveyed into an elegantly aggressive sport that is rightfully give the name of the sweet scinece, because the best boxers the ones that everyone rememberes are all scientists sugar ray sugar leonard ali may weather hopkins ext where as all the mma fighters i have seen are brawlers and the better at brawling they are inrespective to boxing skills of hand speed power and chin, the better mma they will be. in the end it is only a sport and peoples prefferances are the over all judge of what is best. sinces the ufcs ganing in popularity boxing has been quick to make derogatry remarkes about it which show that they are scared. and rightfully so as ufc could easily become more popular ecpecally as it is show in a very pro wreseling soap opra manor which draws in alot of undiced fans. As mma becomes more popular it will enevatable bring more money and more talented people to the sport futher harming boxing.It is a sad reflection of the times when people would rather watch the brutality of mma than the sporting brilliance of boxing.
Saturday Jun 7, 2008
David:  Adam, you couldn't be more ridiculous and out of touch with the reality of mma compared to boxing. Boxing is based on talent and athletic ability?? Yes, and so is mma, but takes considerably more talent and a lot more brain power than boxing. Probably one reason that so many mma fighters have a college degree and so many boxers haven't completed high school. Also, in a street fight a skilled mma would hurt a skilled boxer so fast it wouldn't even be funny. Can you say knee to the head, kicked his teeth out and about 1000 other possibilities.
Saturday Jun 14, 2008
Adam Godhard:  David you say I am out of touch with the reality but you bring up the matter of street fighting when we are talking about two sports would you compare football hooligans who fight in big gangs for pleasure to American football or rugby. street fighting cannot be compared to mma or boxing simply because there are a lot more factors to include in street fighting. where your fighting concrete floor hurt when you hit them. surprise fights often start when you least expect them to weapons drugs alcohol other people getting involved. It’s kind of insulting when you hear mma fighters and boxers talk about street fighting and anyone who thinks it is an acceptable comparison. you also say that mma fighters are clever than boxers because they have "collage degrees" people are born intelligent everyone can learn stuff. Boxers tend to dedicate their entire life’s to training for their sport what use is a college degree. education is often down to circumstances I left school at 16 with no qualifications and worked for a living I am now 22 and have just gone back to school and have an IQ of 144 which makes me well than above average intelligence. But if I was capable of being an athlete of any kind I would spend every day training so I could be the best that I could be. I sure you aware of the great sugar ray Robinson he is what people would call a scientific boxers you are fan of mma and should know a lot more than me about the participants of the sport so could you please let me know if there are any mma fighters who could be called scientists. I also brought up a great many more points in my previous statement if you disagree with me don’t just call me ridiculous tell me which points and why you disagree with them. You seem to just with respect insult mine and your own intelligence by bring street fighting and academic education up. Could you please respond thank you.
Sunday Jun 15, 2008
Yah:  Martial arts is going to evolve again just like it did during the Bruce Lee Period in the 70s and early 80s. More and more people are tuning in to MMA. Boxing will still be out there but I think people will tune in more to MMA.
Sunday Jun 22, 2008
mwhite:  Some of these comments are hysterical. I guess the boxers at the local gym are trying to put in their two-cents. You idiots make it seem like you could give a crash course to a professional boxer in MMA and they would be good to go? That is hilarious!!! What you forget is the majority of the MMA fighters are excellent boxers as well. You wont find to many boxers if any that know how to protect themselves on the ground. The stance alone from an MMA fighter would completely throw off most boxers. You underestimate the MMA fighter. I have been around boxing for 30 years now and seen both live and there is no comparison IMO between the two. The MMA fighters are more skilled overall than the majority of the boxers overall. I think we would love to see the sissy boy Mayweather get into the ring with any top notch MMA fighter. I guarantee the punk would never enter the octagon again that is if he even lived to see another day. What a joke!!!!
Monday Jun 30, 2008
WhiteCastle:  MMA = Mixed Martial Arts -Muay Thai -BJJ -BOXING -Kickboxing -Wrestling -Karate Do I need to go on? Boxing, is just one part of fighting. So saying a boxer could take out someone who knows multiple martial arts is ridiculous. Some of you boxing guys are acting like the only thing an MMA fighter can do is grapple, and if they try to do stand up they will get killed. Well your forgetting a limbs here, I guarantee you a boxer going into a Muay Thai tournament using just boxing will get beat. Two things will happen here 1. Muay Thai fighter will chop away the boxer's legs, taking away from his footwork skills. 2. The boxer will be put in the clinch, take knees and elbows to the face and body, until he gets knocked out. And to round things out - Royce Gracie v. Art J. UFC 1 that fight pretty much closes the argument right there.
Saturday Jul 5, 2008
alan 12:  art j was hardly a world class boxer he ended his career with a 33-18 record
Monday Jul 21, 2008
Lord Ra:  I enjoy both sports and recognize them as 2 different sports. Boxing and MMA are both sport. Two different kind of athelets, conditioned to fight under two different class of rules. A pure boxer would get murdered in a MMA competion and I would LOVE to see Sean Sherk step in a boxing ring with Floyd Mayweather. That great MMA stance would leave him open for bodyshoots all day. both sports have excellent atheletes but comparing them is like saying that a basket ball foward is better than a football FB. Why can't we have both? MMA does not satisfy my desire to see skilled combatants, Boxing does not give me the agression that gets me hype.
Thursday Jul 24, 2008
Hank:  Talking about street fights and Boxing, Vs. MMA. Why does everyone here seem to think a boxer is a wimp? We all know what a boxer can do. A boxer hits ten times harder than the average joe. If he connects he will knock out the MMA. But my biggest beef is what makes you all so sure a boxer CAN NOT do anything but box? Anyone who knows boxers knows they often hit the heavy bag with an elbow when it is near. Also, you don't think they wear "pillows" for no reason do you? Dude, things will break if they hit you with 4 oz gloves. You all think Tyson would be washed up if he was grabbed? He'd swing those fist so fast at the side of a MMA head he wouldn't know what hit him. If a boxers hands are free he is going to hit - in the face, in the ribs (breaking them with 4oz gloves on), in the gut. Boxers hit so hard it knocks the other guy clean off his feet! A boxer can hit harder with his elbow also. Boxers are fast on their feet. They can move back as the guy comes into grab them around the waist. Can you hit in the back of the head in MMA? if so,,,,, You don't think a boxer would break the eye socket, or nose, or jaw, of anyone he punched with a 4 0z glove? A 145 pound boxer hits with 900psi of force. Gloves and hand wraps are to protect the boxers hands from BREAKING when he hits you and to help your face from breaking as well. Those are the facts. Food for thought.
Wednesday Aug 20, 2008
yo:  actually they did a study on the discovery channel and bas rutten did a punching test on a dummy and hit way harder than the avg boxer. a boxer would get head kicked so fast, he wouldnt know what hit him and he would be putting his pj's on for the night.
Wednesday Oct 22, 2008
dom:  loved boxing.... but over the years became board by all the bums, the fact that the top guy fights once a year, the promoters stealing all the money. crap. boxing is dead. MMA and in particular UFC. want natural talent BJ Penn, black belt jijitsu in 2 years, WC in 3. Boxers do convert to MMA and can get the odd knock out, but against the best they are destroyed. then they learn grapling for a year or 2 and come back. Anyone see Mohamed Ali verses the Karate guy 20 years ago. guy lied on the ground and kicked him in the legs for 15 years. had to drain blood form his leg. boxers no matter how good couldnt compete in MMA unless they learned some other MMA skills. Thats the beauty of it, they are always learning. Boxing is dead (dead boaring at least) long live MMA.
Wednesday Oct 29, 2008
dom:  loved boxing.... but over the years became board by all the bums, the fact that the top guy fights once a year, the promoters stealing all the money. crap. boxing is dead. MMA and in particular UFC is the new boxing. want natural talent BJ Penn, black belt jijitsu in 2 years, WC in 3. Boxers do convert to MMA and can get the odd knock out, but against the best they are destroyed. then they learn grapling for a year or 2 and come back. Anyone see Mohamed Ali verses the Karate guy 20 years ago. guy lied on the ground and kicked him in the legs for 15 rounds. had to drain blood form his leg. boxers no matter how good couldnt compete in MMA unless they learned some other MMA skills. Thats the beauty of it, they are always learning. Boxing is dead (dead boaring at least) long live MMA.
Wednesday Oct 29, 2008
Andrew:  There are a number of problems with boxing as a sport. The very structure of boxing is flawed. Boxing is dominated by people who need to fight for money. Generally the sport draws in the lower income warriors who see this sport as a way to both prove their manhood and as a way out of a lower social economic. This, in and of itself, is not wrong as people need a way to make a living. Unfortunately, many boxers see this as their sole way out. When a participants' vision is so myopic it helps to flaw and corrupt the system. These fighters become pawns in the system run by corrupt men. Bribes, thrown fights, and emotionally stunted athletes are the order of the day. This is no fault of their own but they are managed by powerful men who use them as tools to make enormous sums of money. Subsequently, many of these fighters have records that are artificially inflated. Take a look at Mike Tyson's early opponents. A real look. Look into the records of those opponents. Hand picked and unskilled to provide him with a long list of wins at no risk. A 15-0 record in boxing doesn't mean very much because there is a large number of "has beens" and "never will bees" that are fed to any boxer with moderate skills. Skill comparison. I would offer a thought. Every sport has an infinite number of skills to work on. Another thought I have never seen a college boxing match except on a Teen wolf movie. This may thin out the pool of talent a bit. There are hundreds of wrestling rooms across the country offering training to grapplers I have been a part of wrestling and Judo since I was 5. I was a regional Judo champion and I wrestled in college. As a College athlete you are in a room with 15 state champions who train 4 hours a day about 6 days a week. Race has nothing to do with wrestling. However strength, intelligence, flexibility, speed, reflexes and skill are ALL VERY important. Wrestlers are constantly receiving instruction by world champions and Olympians. This is the best of the best teaching the best of the best. Because of my involvement I truly think wrestlers are the toughest people on the planet. I'm biased but I am moderately educated In the other fields of combat. I will always know more about wrestling and judo than boxing. I think MMA has done some things right. 1) It offers elite athletes another way to make a living 2) Very few inflated records. 3) Lots of competitive fights to watch at each event 4) Energetic fights 5) Multiple fights in 1 night. 12 rounds of boxing takes a long time. Longer if it's a bad fight 5a) A bad mma fight lasts about 15 mins 6) A large variety of skills so there is something for everything.
Friday Nov 14, 2008
K.L:  Boxers don't stand a chance against mma guys, let alone muay thai guys . A sucker punch would be their best chance.
Sunday Nov 16, 2008
The Comeback Kid:  The MMA is the realest sport out there becasue it's simple if you want some just come GET SOME
Tuesday Feb 10, 2009
john :  i was having the same debate today who would win out of a boxer and an mma fighter? in an anything goes fight obviously an mma fighter, doubting that would be stupid!!!, a prime example of a fighter with hand speed speed and boxing skills is vitor belfort, who quit professional boxing, besides tyson was offerd a welcomed into cage rage but denied the offer complementing the mma fighters and admiting he wouldnt stand a chance! although he did referee a match at the cage rage recently in manchester
Sunday Feb 22, 2009
R:  im in agreement with having a tournement in each weight class with the top tier guys in both sports. do it in a team manner which they have to choose what guys to putin the ring or octogon on a contender show type of basis by the teams choosins. i love love both sports but id have to side with the boxers bcs once the mma fighter got in the boxing ring the shows over. their stand up game is garbage. the only way the mma would have a shot is only on the ground game which is a long shot bcs most mma fighters stick to the stand up game 50% of the time which means a boxer with smaller gloves and a guy that doesnt no how to gaurd himself.
Friday Mar 13, 2009
mikey mma boxer:  Hey there Guys, great comments but I have been thinking about this vs thing for 20 yrs. I trained inmartial arts til I was 18 then started boxing and had 4 amateur bouts, won 3/4, 2 by stoppage. I learnt how to punch when I started boxing and at the time I was doing boxing training from 6pm til 8pm and then running to tae-kwon-do(red belt, one before black) and quite frankly I just started to kick too much ass that in the end I gave up TKD because it was mixed with diff ages and genders and was no longer a challenge. I had found real combat. That was back in 1989 and there was a thing called full contact karate but I headed down the boxing route. I enjoyed it but I did have a few TKD v boxing sparring sessions and the boxers were fearful of the kicks. I was the opposite because of my experience, when I was faced with kicks I used distance and hit them hard with fists - easy! Anyway thats my background but my real point here is this. QUALITY! Boxing has the quality and mma is on a learning curve. Imagine Edwin Valero with solid wrestling, ground game, leg kicks and take down defence - SMACK - all over for your average mma guy from today as the quality level in 'striking' is just not there in ufc/mma as yet. Check out K1 they have quality kickers and some world kickboxing organisations not forgetting of course, muay thai, they have the best quality full contact kicking training (QUALITY), put these together with olympic wrestlers and world class BJJ and then you can say boxing loses to mma. But not until then...because it is all about quality! When you see a quality boxer, you can recognise the huge talent, the only mma fighter I have seen who comes close is Anderson Silva but his days could be numbered with Lyota Machida. At last some real quality in MMA. Bruce Lee paved the way and I used to be a huge fan so I watch all of this with greatest of interest. Where was Bruce Lee vs Muhamed ALi?? Ali fought a wrestler in Japan... Cheers Guys, much respect to all who have contributed to these comments......
Thursday Apr 9, 2009
Anonymous:  Art Jimmerson VS Royce Gracie. (That’s right kiddos, WBO and Olympic Boxer never got to fire off a punch. Look it up) Floyd Mayweather’s (hillarious) backpeddling with immediate apology to Sean Sherk after claiming he’d knock him out in a heartbeat (that is, until they met face to face to sign the deal). Give it a rest. The only people who don’t know by now are the dying breed of Boxer Evangelists who believe that boxing can do anything, even fuel the Earth’s core if the Sun died out. They think Boxing invented the Moon, and that the Boxing=MC2. Boxing is the sport of punching. Nothing glorified there, cheif. It is what it is. Punching. Probably the most evolved form of punching on the planet (the doctrine I personally use in my standup game); but punching nonetheless. To say ‘Boxing VS MMA’ is like to say Canada VS NATO; it’s about one of the most ridiculous things ever. You’re an idiot for asking, and anyone who thinks Boxing has a piss-shot in hell is about as dumbfucked as you are. It shows that you don’t know what MMA is, so we’ll start your education there, kiddo… ‘MMA’ as you so tentively put it, stansd for ‘Mixed Martial Arts’… something that incorporates many different styles of fighting. I’ll list the ones I’ve seen used to success personally… Karate (I personally woulda called this a worthless art, but when’s the last time you saw Lyoto Machida? Chuck Liddell? I guess it just depends on the person…) Kickboxing Boxing Catch/Shoot Wrestling Gracie JuJitsu (which, I think is what you dumbfucks are calling ‘MMA’ lol, which still fucks boxing up 10/10 times… watch the early UFCs to watch A.Jimmerson get manhandled without ever being able to fire off a punch hahaha) Muay Thai (Brutal. Period. If you don’t know, go learn) Sambo (I personally don’t know too much about this, but from what I’ve seen it’s actually effective, doesn’t rely on mysticism or magical powers- just power and technique) So, what we get here, is a mixture of combat-effective styles that encompass virtually every real fighting style known to man. So, it can be said, that ‘MMA’ is actually just a term to imply ‘various fighting styles’… even boxing. Your failure is epic; about as epic as watching Floyd Mayweather see Sean Sherk and stutter while he apologized. Just, classic. (My other favorite is when boxers fall back on Muhammad Ali to save the good name of boxing… Muhammad who also fought in an MMA event… I bet you didn’t know that did you? Good take a peek at the results of that LOL… his injuries sustained to his legs lead to the demise of his boxing career. Go learn: look up Antonio Inoki VS Muhummed Ali) Peace bitchtits.
Friday Apr 10, 2009
TeeJay:  My Bf fought in the UFC against Kimbo Slice. Hahaha. No He Didn't Win :p I LOVE UFC AND MMA
Monday Apr 20, 2009
dan:  You take mike tyson vs chuck lidell in a ring or a octagon and tyson will knock chuck out before the first round. Now mma fighter can come close to a professioanl boxer becasue of his speed, quickness, reflexes and etc. Muhammad ali in his prime vs forrest griffin. Good luck forrest but you'll also be knocked out. People say oh once a ufc fighter gets him on the ground he's done. Yah true but boxers are so quick that it won't happen. If a ufc fighter was cornered in the ring expect 15 hooks in the face. Oh I forgot to say, the boxer gets the same type of gloves as the mma fighter. (8oz.) No chance for ufc!
Friday May 8, 2009
Chuck-Steak:  ^ I I Dan, you are full of misconceptions. MMA fighters have speed, quickness and reflexes. A boxer would most likely win a boxing match and an MMA fighter would most likely win a MMA match. As for takedowns, how many boxers train to defend the takedown? Have you ever seen how fast and explosive olympic wrestlers are when going for a take down? I'm not saying a boxer would be taken down every time, but to think they would never be taken down is just ignorant. Go watch Ali vs. Inoki. And that was a joke of a fight because Ali demanded rule changes last minute to disallow Inoki from taking him down to grapple. Now why would Ali what that rule change last minute? Because he knew if he got taken to the groud it was over for him. Now you said a true boxer would never ghet taken down (or do you not consider Ali a true boxer?) yet "The Greatest" was affraid of Inoki taking him down.This made that fight very lopsidded in favor of Ali and yet Ali couldn't even knock out the japanese Pro-Wrestler. How do you explain that?
Wednesday May 20, 2009
Blah Blah:  Maybe coz Inoki was lying flat on the ground for about 99% of that fight trying to kick on Ali's legs.
Sunday May 24, 2009
dave:  i have seen a boxer using only his fists take out 3 black belts in a street fight-all over in 10 seconds-mma fighter wouldn't have a chance against a good boxer
Sunday May 24, 2009
Anonymous user:  don't care what ye say. Put some real greats such as 20 year old Mike Tyson, the Baddest Man On The Planet, against a UFC guy on a street and the ufc will be ko d in 10 secs. Its gonna b so predictable, ufc guy tries to knee tyson in the face, tyson catches him, bites both of his ears off and then knocks his head right in. I'm white and im no rascist, but ufc is just a bunch of white losers who just cant overcome the dominating black boxers.
Tuesday May 26, 2009
Continentalop:  Five things: 1) no mma fighter has faced the punching power and hand speed of a top notch pro boxer. Why? Because a pro boxer spends all his time developing one thing, boxing ability. A olympian who focuses on the 100 m dash is going to be faster than a decathlete who focuses on 10 events; 2) at the same time no boxer has ever faced going to the ground. You think college and olympic wrestlers are slow when they shoot on you? A boxer might be surprised to find himself on the ground before he knows it; 3) why should a mma fighter have to take a boxer on in the ring? It they fight it should be in a mma match because fighters are claiming their sport is superior. If a european fencer claims he is the best swords man he should just take on a kendo expert and his katana, he shouldn't force the guy to fight with a rapier and obey fencing rules. He is taking him out of his element; 4) Personally, I think boxing is the best individual skill you can develop and that if a top-notch boxer decided to train in mma, learning how to stuff takedowns and basic grappling and bjj, he could dominate. Having said that the idea that a guy who knows only boxing would kill a mma is ridiculous. The boxer would only win if the mma fighter lets him dictate the fight. If you are in battle and your opponent is armed wit ha HMG you don't rush him, you either get a M24 and shoot him at a distance, or you get behind cover and lobs grenades at him. You change your tactics to fit the circumstances. A boxer is only equipped for one type of fight - fist to fist. A smart MMA fighter will never stand and go toe-to-toe when he can shoot him and take him down where a boxer is helpless. I'm not saying a boxer couldn't win - he might very well and I wouldn't be surprised - but to think a mma fighter couldn't throw something at him he has never seen is just wishful thinking; 5) anyone who thinks mma is bs should write to his congressmen because the government wasted millions training me and others in MAC, which is based on many facets from mma.
Wednesday Jun 17, 2009

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