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oubobcat:

I have not had a chance to chime in on this subject yet but when I first saw the topic the name that screamed out to me that would give many all time greats a tough fight is Winky Wright.

Up until the very end of his career, Wright was a nightmare for anyone he fought. He was also very avoided particularly in what was really the prime of his career after he beat Andrew Council and Bronco McKart. It took Wright three years after beating McKart to force his way into a big fight against Fernando Vargas and in my opinion defeat Vargas who at that time was just entering his own prime.

Wright was a southpaw of course. His style was unique though and this is what made him so tough to fight. He was a slick southpaw, no doubt but not slick in the manner of a southpaw who uses his legs and moves to frustrate his opponents. Wright would stand in the pocket and use angles and precise timing to land punches, not always hard punches, but land scoring shots. But he was slick enough and skilled enough defensively, especially in his prime, to slip punches in the pocket and rarely get hit clean. He knew what precise angle to throw at to avoid counters landing and would step away at just the right time to avoid punches while going back on his own offensive. Defensively, in the pocket he was always moving his head and a master at picking/deflecting shots whether with his shoulder or gloves.

There was a reason for example why Shane Mosley had such a difficult time twice with Winky Wright and made to look like silly at times trying to land on him in his two losses to Wright in 2004.

Wright was primarily a Junior Middleweight. But I am going to project him at Middleweight in his prime against a prime Marvin Hagler.

Wright would give Hagler a very tough fight. He would stand in the pocket with Hagler and use the slick skills I mentioned above to fight Hagler standing in the pocket all night. It would one one of those fights that would be very tough to score. Hagler would land but not always cleanly. Wright may land more but not with the thud that Hagler's punches may have behind them. I see a very close fight between the two and one of those fights that would go to the cards with nobody really knowing who actually won the fight.

Hagler was great but Wright's style, particularly in his prime, would give a lot of great fighters fits including Hagler.

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oubobcat:

"OK - fair enough.

Lobby Dino to set up a UI (user interface) on the website that accepts registered forum user's scores/votes on each judge's performance after significant fights.

Whether the identity of the scorer remains published or not can be up for debate.

I will support it/you so long as the system is not used to vent disappointment, and so long as there is a means by which the judges can also log in and have the right of reply and/or respond to the criticism/applause and explain their actions.

Let's see how much traction it gets."


I like that suggestion and think that's a great idea. It has to start somewhere and frankly I don't have confidence in the commissions to start a grading system on their own as this has been an ongoing problem in the sport that has yet to be corrected. Its up to us fans to make our voices heard correctly (like you said not to vent disappoint and allow the other side to state their case) and get the necessary change implemented in this sport we all love.

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oubobcat:

"Yes, not bad DD.

Actually, very good.

The flaws with the current sanction(s) scoring/judging system (mostly) all stem from how subjective, and therefore both justifiably different and theoretically correct (because scoring is quite literally/legally allowed to be subjective, rather than purely objective - which is, ironically, how we critiques sometime {wrongly} feel/justify we are judging the judging) each scorecard is.

With many sanctions points or subjective success within each round can be allotted by a judge for defensive moves also - but this rarely happens and as such is often forgotten about when scorecards are presented that seem unusually wide.

Despite how it may be wrong or right; if you and I sit across from each other, watching and judging Carl Froch - on his home turf - swing and miss against Andre Dirrell; but we both score the fight wildly different due to;

1) Your interest in (the highly subjective term) "effective" aggression and also a fighter that "makes" the fight, but lands both fewer but the more powerful blows.

2) My interest in a boxer that can make his mark miss and pay, but in doing so - whilst he easily out-lands his mark - he is in/out so much that some (as many do) see this approach to boxing and/or fighting as one that's afraid to stand and trade - despite the fact that; (a) boxing is the hit and not get hit game, and (b) other than any which morally may exist to spectators and the promoter, there actually is no contracted/legal obligation for any fighter to stand and trade - whether or not he has the ability to hit and make his opponent miss.

In the context of most sanction's rules; it is entirely possible that we would both be entirely correct in what we did - even if our cards were wildly different.

I don't see how your system would resolve that - often misunderstood - conundrum with prizefighting and its scoring.

That said, you, in some ways, and perhaps indirectly, acknowledge that issue.

Furthermore, you don't profess to solve it.

Therefore, it's fair that your proposal should be reasonably safe from judgment on that aspect of consideration and how it applies.

Reasonably safe, is, as you no doubt are aware, is a subjective term in itself.

I still think your scoring idea, which has similarities to tennis, has merits though.

I see how the main thrust of your construct or concept is that you want to introduce a greater degree of granularity to scoring, and also perhaps expose the quantitative elements and/or the quantifiable data that a scoring card and scored round comprises of.

That's both a noble and challenging thought.

Essentially, if successful, you would - in one move - potentially bring both more transparency and accountability to scoring, and therefore controversial decisions.

This would potentially also remove, or greatly reduce, influence and how it is exerted within commercial boxing matches; which may actually be the the death nell for the idea as much as it explains why out current system has lasted for so long.

But let's leave that thought there for a while - as it is a little negative, and your idea is remarkably positive - or at least it can be advertised as such.

For your idea, and its increased granularity, accountability and transparency to work . . I think there would need to be clearly defined aspects of boxing/judging that points can be awarded and/or deducted for, and a way to ensure points are allocated for those aspects of the game, fight and promotion; which would understandably put a lot more pressure on judges.

If not, the increased granularity that the (extra) numbers themselves represent (that you propose), would possibly give rise to greater questions.

Such as why they exist on certain scorecards within certain fights.

As you can see, along with the increased granularity potentially comes a lot of questions.

And a lot (more) of questions about the way one of the most subjectively judged (both from officials and spectators) sports is officiated, might just (at least in the eyes of those that control large aspects of the sport) expose and/or confirm certain uncomfortable truths about how the sport really works.

In it's current guise the sport has a financial means of profiting from the controversy associated with it's subjective and controversial nature; without anyone really being able to confirm their suspicions as to how/why the controversy and/or concerning scorecard came to exist in the first place.

Usually that means is associated with if not directly connected to commissions and rematches.

I am unsure how the entire establishment, promoters, advisors, and other boxing kingpins would respond to more granularity, accountability and transparency.

Usually small doses of such commodities result in large repercussions and backlashes, and as such they are usually treated as a "problem" in the same way as you have (justifiably) treated the existing, and largely exploitable, scoring system.

None of this means your idea is not theoretically clever - it is.

More than likely - particularly whilst there exists no reliable, objective, and accepted electronic means of tallying scoring punches and all the other boxing aspects/maneuvers (such as effective evasiveness) that may comprise of and/or be associated with the additional numbers and granularity you have suggested - it means that the idea is, practically, uninteresting; due to the changes and "problems" it may represent to the entire establishment, promoters, advisors, and other boxing kingpins.

Where I possibly see it initially gaining traction is with networks, but then if the promoters don't like it, or it gets in the way of how they do business; that will kill the network's interest to.

Change and accountability is a scary thing in this world to a lot of people - particularly those that profit from ambiguity and controversy.

However, within a plutocracy, change can be considered to be downright horrific and as such treated like either the devil, VADA, police or taxman; take your pick - or take them all.

Personally, I like your idea and would like to see it implemented as I have above described."


I have been on this subject for the last week begging that something needs to get done.

As boxing fans, we all know the system is broke. We have known that for some time. And some results from the events last week once again illustrated that point.

I am open to any change. The change I have been pitching for the last week is to implement a simple but necessary grading system for the judges. They need to be held accountable once and for all. I was upset when I saw that for example that Raul Caiz Jr. was on of the judges for yesterday's Showtime card (he was a judge during the main eveny between Jesus Cuellar and Ruben Tamayo). He should frankly be under review and suspension at the moment for the card he turned in for the Tyson Cave-Oscar Excandon fight. In that fight, he scored it 117-111 for Escandon in a fight that Cave dominated most rounds and certainly could not have won only three rounds.

I also like the change proposed above DD. There are some rounds that are razor thin that go 10-9 for a fighter. But other rounds that are dominant by the other fighter also go 10-9. How is that logically possible? Shouldn't we be scoring every second of the fight equally. I think so and I think the scoring system we have in play currently needs an overhaul. The one proposed above is an excellent idea in my opinion.

Its time to change this sport and do it the right way. The old way is broke and we all know it. Lets start implementing pass/fail grades as I have proposed before for the judges (judges only receive a fail grade on blatantly bad cards) and look at implementing a different scoring system such as the one proposed above.

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oubobcat:

"This fight was not supposed to be on tv because it was a joke setup to begin with. Another tsAH special.
The opponent isn't even a featherweight and was knocked out in his last fight. Fights like this should be kept of TV and should not be discussed openly because boxing gets a black eye these mismatches are promoted.

The fact that Gary couldn't knock out this guy says everything about Gary."


It was a horrible fight to watch. It was completely one sided with Martin having zero answers for Russell's speed.

I thought at first Russell was carrying Martin. He was literally playing with him at times. But as the fight progressed, there were spots that Russell sat down and tried to throw harder shots that just didn't have any force behind them. Martin has been knocked out a few times and was coming up in weight. I think this tells you all you need to know about Russell's power.

Jesus Cuellar fought in the main event and knocked a similarly over matched opponent. A fight between him and Russell would actually be very interesting if Haymon would make it. Cuellar is rugged and throws a lot of punches. And he can crack some. Skill wise, no question Russell is much more talented but the rugged aggressiveness and punching power of Cuellar would make for an interesting fight. Its very makeable and if Russell is as good as he claims to be this is an opponent he needs to handle.

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Birddog:

Stormie, You said it so nice you posted it twice. I commented on the possibility or no possibility of the Mayweather - Pac, fite. What I wrote it the truth, if the fight doesn't happen. Take for example the Jack Dempsey vs Harry Wills fight, both have passed away quite awhile ago and the there is still a debate over that fight that never happened. Yes, my friend, if both retire without fighting each other it will be the same.

Pac has at least stated his willingness to fight even at a lower pay. Mayweather meanwhile is setting conditions that put a damper on negotiations. Sure Mayweather has the right, but he is leaving no room for negotiation. "Must get rid of Bob, must fight on SHOWTIME PPV, Testing, the split, pleeeeeeeeeeeeze.

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deepwater2:

That is funny. Gary can't even ko the fix he had in front of him last night. I think the tsAH is signing up all the NYC cab drivers to help launch his network deal. It might backfire on him because NYC cabbies would knockout lil Gary .

In all honesty Khan is making a fool of himself. At welterweight he beat a washed up Louie Collazo and out boxed Alexander. Nothing to brag about. He should rematch Garcia for redemption or take on Brook at Wembley.

Khan does not deserve to fight Floyd so that is actually why Floyd will fight him. There will be no Floyd vs Pacman.

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deepwater2:

This fight was not supposed to be on tv because it was a joke setup to begin with. Another tsAH special.

The opponent isn't even a featherweight and was knocked out in his last fight. Fights like this should be kept of TV and should not be discussed openly because boxing gets a black eye these mismatches are promoted.



The fact that Gary couldn't knock out this guy says everything about Gary.

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amayseng:

"Yes, it's interesting (to the racism in boxing debate) that many white people associated with boxing have actually helped both Frazier and Ali, and even other fighters.

I'm not saying there is no racism - because there always will be.

But, even with Dan Goosen and other guys like Max Kellerman and/or his brother; in the sport there are plenty of examples that blow the "white man hates and/or is prejudice towards the black guy" myth apart.

Your comments on Merchant prove it.

I wonder if Floyd - when he, a few years ago, made his remarks about Larry being racist - realised what Larry did.

Because if Floyd was aware of that - and let's face it, with the boxing/historical knowledge that many of the Mayweathers have, it's hard to imagine that someone in the TMT was not aware of it - then he himself looks rather hypocritical and, dare I say it, silly."


"silly" ?

Storm you are always so polite. Let me say it for you, Floyd can be a "dumbass" and his sheep would follow him off of a cliff.

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stormcentre:

Kahn really is running off his mouth about Floyd and the possible fight.

Sounds a little desperate and silly sometimes.

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Radam G:

Hehehe! That was funny. Poor Amir Khan should have taken the gig last time, instead throwing out a ridiculous alibi about the Muslim's Holy month of Ramadan preventing him from training properly to dance with Money May at that time.

Life in boxing is that if on an opportunity you snooze, you lose. Holla!

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Radam G:

Humans are forever bias. I maintain that robots should be judges. Holla!

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stormcentre:

"I hope that Holy comes out of retirement and retires him, and then retires again. Hehe! Holla!"

Oh that's just mean.

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stormcentre:

Yes, not bad DD.



Actually, very good.



The flaws with the current sanction(s) scoring/judging system (mostly) all stem from how subjective, and therefore both justifiably different and theoretically correct (because scoring is quite literally/legally allowed to be subjective, rather than purely objective - which is, ironically, how we critiques sometime {wrongly} feel/justify we are judging the judging) each scorecard is.



With many sanctions points or subjective success within each round can be allotted by a judge for defensive moves also - but this rarely happens and as such is often forgotten about when scorecards are presented that seem unusually wide.



Despite how it may be wrong or right; if you and I sit across from each other, watching and judging Carl Froch - on his home turf - swing and miss against Andre Dirrell; but we both score the fight wildly different due to;



1) Your interest in (the highly subjective term) "effective" aggression and also a fighter that "makes" the fight, but lands both fewer but the more powerful blows.



2) My interest in a boxer that can make his mark miss and pay, but in doing so - whilst he easily out-lands his mark - he is in/out so much that some (as many do) see this approach to boxing and/or fighting as one that's afraid to stand and trade - despite the fact that; (a) boxing is the hit and not get hit game, and (b) other than any which morally may exist to spectators and the promoter, there actually is no contracted/legal obligation for any fighter to stand and trade - whether or not he has the ability to hit and make his opponent miss.



In the context of most sanction's rules; it is entirely possible that we would both be entirely correct in what we did - even if our cards were wildly different.



I don't see how your system would resolve that - often misunderstood - conundrum with prizefighting and its scoring.



That said, you, in some ways, and perhaps indirectly, acknowledge that issue.



Furthermore, you don't profess to solve it.



Therefore, it's fair that your proposal should be reasonably safe from judgment on that aspect of consideration and how it applies.



Reasonably safe, is, as you no doubt are aware, is a subjective term in itself.



I still think your scoring idea, which has similarities to tennis, has merits though.



I see how the main thrust of your construct or concept is that you want to introduce a greater degree of granularity to scoring, and also perhaps expose the quantitative elements and/or the quantifiable data that a scoring card and scored round comprises of.



That's both a noble and challenging thought.



Essentially, if successful, you would - in one move - potentially bring both more transparency and accountability to scoring, and therefore controversial decisions.



This would potentially also remove, or greatly reduce, influence and how it is exerted within commercial boxing matches; which may actually be the the death nell for the idea as much as it explains why out current system has lasted for so long.



But let's leave that thought there for a while - as it is a little negative, and your idea is remarkably positive - or at least it can be advertised as such.



For your idea, and its increased granularity, accountability and transparency to work . . I think there would need to be clearly defined aspects of boxing/judging that points can be awarded and/or deducted for, and a way to ensure points are allocated for those aspects of the game, fight and promotion; which would understandably put a lot more pressure on judges.



If not, the increased granularity that the (extra) numbers themselves represent (that you propose), would possibly give rise to greater questions.



Such as why they exist on certain scorecards within certain fights.



As you can see, along with the increased granularity potentially comes a lot of questions.



And a lot (more) of questions about the way one of the most subjectively judged (both from officials and spectators) sports is officiated, might just (at least in the eyes of those that control large aspects of the sport) expose and/or confirm certain uncomfortable truths about how the sport really works.



In it's current guise the sport has a financial means of profiting from the controversy associated with it's subjective and controversial nature; without anyone really being able to confirm their suspicions as to how/why the controversy and/or concerning scorecard came to exist in the first place.



Usually that means is associated with if not directly connected to commissions and rematches.



I am unsure how the entire establishment, promoters, advisors, and other boxing kingpins would respond to more granularity, accountability and transparency.



Usually small doses of such commodities result in large repercussions and backlashes, and as such they are usually treated as a "problem" in the same way as you have (justifiably) treated the existing, and largely exploitable, scoring system.



None of this means your idea is not theoretically clever - it is.



More than likely - particularly whilst there exists no reliable, objective, and accepted electronic means of tallying scoring punches and all the other boxing aspects/maneuvers (such as effective evasiveness) that may comprise of and/or be associated with the additional numbers and granularity you have suggested - it means that the idea is, practically, uninteresting; due to the changes and "problems" it may represent to the entire establishment, promoters, advisors, and other boxing kingpins.



Where I possibly see it initially gaining traction is with networks, but then if the promoters don't like it, or it gets in the way of how they do business; that will kill the network's interest to.



Change and accountability is a scary thing in this world to a lot of people - particularly those that profit from ambiguity and controversy.



However, within a plutocracy, change can be considered to be downright horrific and as such treated like either the devil, VADA, police or taxman; take your pick - or take them all.



Personally, I like your idea and would like to see it implemented as I have above described.

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Radam G:

I hope that Holy comes out of retirement and retires him, and then retires again. Hehe! Holla!

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Radam G:

"Yes, it's interesting (to the racism in boxing debate) that many white people associated with boxing have actually helped both Frazier and Ali, and even other fighters.

I'm not saying there is no racism - because there always will be.

But, even with Dan Goosen and other guys like Max Kellerman and/or his brother; in the sport there are plenty of examples that blow the "white man hates and/or is prejudice towards the black guy" myth apart.

Your comments on Merchant prove it.

I wonder if Floyd - when he, a few years ago, made his remarks about Larry being racist - realised what Larry did.

Because if Floyd was aware of that - and let's face it, with the boxing/historical knowledge that many of the Mayweathers have, it's hard to imagine that someone in the TMT was not aware of it - then he himself looks rather hypocritical and, dare I say it, silly."


Floyd was and is totally aware of that, as all boxers know the truthfully good guys and the minute amount of racists.

Lil' Floyd is an arch hypocrite, and just pops off at the mouth for effect and to control the dimwitted, naive groupies fanfaronades and lazy-will-never-do-their-research fan boys who go along to get along to get along. Holla!

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Radam G:

"I never thought of Cooney, but I have to agree with you, his size and power could have been too much for many former champs ! I did think of Buster Douglas, but only the one who fought Mike Tyson, not the one who showed up to pick up his check against Holyfield !"

Definitely not the over slob who came to fight Holy. Holla!

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Froggy:

"You guys thought of Chuvalo dancing with Doc Wlad G, but I was thinking Buster Douglas and Gerry Cooney. I pick them both to kayo Doc Wlad K, "Brown Bomber" Joe Louis, Jack Johnson, Jack Dempsey and Rocky Marciano. Styles make fights and those greats that I named would have ducked Douglas and Cooney. Holla!"



I never thought of Cooney, but I have to agree with you, his size and power could have been too much for many former champs ! I did think of Buster Douglas, but only the one who fought Mike Tyson, not the one who showed up to pick up his check against Holyfield !

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stormcentre:

I can't see Froch wanting to fight Dirrell again.

I know his fight with Froch was controversial.

But for my money Andre won that fight, and in some senses (even though he is somewhat of a timid fighter, particularly when faced with a powerfully punching opponent; regardless of their skill level and/or inferiority) he schooled Carl.

Froch was made to miss and look amateurish.

Froch was beaten to the punch and seriously exposed for the weaknesses he has with slick fighters and movers.

The Dirrell V Froch fight was essentially a perfect prequel and brilliant timing for Ward, who must have been licking his lips with joy knowing that both;

a) He was soon going to (in the super 6 tournament) meet Froch.

b) Froch is a basic, but very successful, fighter who is reliant on his stamina and incredible determination/toughness; who exhibits the above-mentioned difficulties when faced with pure and well skilled boxers that possess similar championship levels of stamina, determination, experience and toughness.

I'd like to see Andre Dirrell get a title and/or in position to fight 3G as a professional.

The fight would show us how 3G deals with guys that aren't so hand picked . . guys that perhaps represent top (or thereabouts) level fighters . . whom possess; good amateur experience/fundamentals, excellent boxing skills that are tried/tested in the professional ranks, good defence, good speed/mobility, and also (at least) decent power - all wrapped up into one.

After all, it's this package (and perhaps more) that 3G possesses - which is why he is usually superior to most of his opponents; that usually lack some essentials off the aforementioned list

Dirrell or someone else possessing the aforementioned list of attributes, would foreseeably be able to pressure and make Gennady work for distance and position - which he needs to time and set up his KO punches.

For those reasons it would be a good fight, where the outcome was perhaps not such a foregone conclusion - as Rubio and many other 3G opponents and fights are.

Anyway, that said; I still think 3G would eventually "catch" and roll over Andre Dirrell.

As Dirrell often closes up and changes in a negative sense during the fight (like Khan can), as soon as he feels power and knows his opponent is not bothered/bamboozled by his superior speed and skills.

Interestingly though (or perhaps it's not) - and despite the fact that, for the above-mentioned reasons, at times Dirrell looked down right timid against Curtis Stevens whom 3G has destroyed – whilst there are other easier opponents, I still don't think Gennady is interested in a Dirrell fight.

In my opinion this is due to how tricky Andre Dirrell is, how hard it may be for 3G to look good against him, and also how Dirrell has also, previously, fared quite well against 3G as an amateur.

Moving back to and finishing this post off with Froch; in my opinion, really, to sustain his current status, I think he needs to fight guys that are not faster and/or similarly - but not more - ring savvy than him.

Julio Cesar Chavez or retire then?

Perhaps that’s a little rough . . I mean, after all, ever since the super 6 tournament, Carl – with whatever limitations he may have as a boxer – still, really has travelled aboard and taken on a rouges gallery of opponents.

Even in the fights he has lost, save for the one with Andre Ward, he has never really been dominated and/or beaten up.

Plus the guy is almost always prepared to rematch.

They don’t come tougher that’s for sure.

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stormcentre:

I can't see Froch wanting to fight Dirrell again.

I know his fight with Froch was controversial.

But for my money Andre won that fight, and in some senses (even though he is somewhat of a timid fighter, particularly when faced with a powerfully punching opponent; regardless of their skill level and/or inferiority) he schooled Carl.

Froch was made to miss and look amateurish.

Froch was beaten to the punch and seriously exposed for the weaknesses he has with slick fighters and movers.

The Dirrell V Froch fight was essentially a perfect prequel and brilliant timing for Ward, who must have been licking his lips with joy knowing that both;

a) He was soon going to (in the super 6 tournament) meet Froch.

b) Froch is a basic, but very successful, fighter who is reliant on his stamina and incredible determination/toughness; who exhibits the above-mentioned difficulties when faced with pure and well skilled boxers that possess similar championship levels of stamina, determination, experience and toughness.

I'd like to see Andre Dirrell get a title and/or in position to fight 3G as a professional.

The fight would show us how 3G deals with guys that aren't so hand picked . . guys that perhaps represent top (or thereabouts) level fighters . . whom possess; good amateur experience/fundamentals, excellent boxing skills that are tried/tested in the professional ranks, good defence, good speed/mobility, and also (at least) decent power - all wrapped up into one.

After all, it's this package (and perhaps more) that 3G possesses - which is why he is usually superior to most of his opponents; that usually lack some essentials off the aforementioned list

Dirrell or someone else possessing the aforementioned list of attributes, would foreseeably be able to pressure and make Gennady work for distance and position - which he needs to time and set up his KO punches.

For those reasons it would be a good fight, where the outcome was perhaps not such a foregone conclusion - as Rubio and many other 3G opponents and fights are.

Anyway, that said; I still think 3G would eventually "catch" and roll over Andre Dirrell.

As Dirrell often closes up and changes in a negative sense during the fight (like Khan can), as soon as he feels power and knows his opponent is not bothered/bamboozled by his superior speed and skills.

Interestingly though, (or perhaps it's not) I don't think Gennady is interested in a Dirrell fight - due to how tricky Andre Dirrell is, how hard it may be for 3G to look good against him, and also how Dirrell has also, previously, fared quite well against 3G as an amateur.

Froch, really, to sustain his current status, needs to fight guys that are not faster and/or similarly or more ring savvy than him.

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stormcentre:

Yes, it's interesting (to the racism in boxing debate) that many white people associated with boxing have actually helped both Frazier and Ali, and even other fighters.

I'm not saying there is no racism - because there always will be.

But, even with Dan Goosen and other guys like Max Kellerman and/or his brother; in the sport there are plenty of examples that blow the "white man hates and/or is prejudice towards the black guy" myth apart.

Your comments on Merchant prove it.

I wonder if Floyd - when he, a few years ago, made his remarks about Larry being racist - realised what Larry did.

Because if Floyd was aware of that - and let's face it, with the boxing/historical knowledge that many of the Mayweathers have, it's hard to imagine that someone in the TMT was not aware of it - then he himself looks rather hypocritical and, dare I say it, silly.

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stormcentre:

Well, I echo BS' sentiments.

"I hope he doesn't hurt himself".

Sure, age can be - for some - just a number.

But boxing - even just the training that doesn't involve contact that's required to get into match-condition - can be extremely demanding on a 20 or 30 year old body; not to mention one that's 40 or 50.

Father time waits for no man, and if Billy is (justifiably; for his age) set in his ways and sleeping in at 5.30am most mornings .. it may just be that he finds out the hard way that his while he was doing that his opponent was doing road work and angrily thinking of how to remove him from his consciousness in ways that do involve sleeping - but not in a bed.

Hope I am wrong, as I admire the guy's tenacity to still competitively jump in the ring at 50.

Wonder how hard and who he will be matched to.

No need to - father time, in good time, will probably tell us that too.

:)

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stormcentre:

Agree, but with several caveats that I can expand on later.

Regardless of the caveats the guy is a living legend that has, quite literally, eclipsed several other rock and movie stars by just showing up to their gigs and/or similar places they frequent.

I remember (years ago) a Diana Ross event in the USA where there were hundreds if not thousands of fans waiting there to see her.

Ali rocks up (for some reason) and - just as Diana Ross is making her long awaited exodus - the very reason all the fans where there and waiting; the entire crowd discards her, and turns to pay Ali respect.

So . . Diana Ross did the same!

Aside from that when ever has there been - or when will there ever be - another more memorable fight - replete with an absolutely sensational "once in a lifetime ending", where both guys are (in some way, shape or in/direct form) ready to quit, with, and rather sensationally;

a) One totally exhausted and legendary fighter (Ali) ready to quite openly quit - but indirectly and, as luck would have it, fortunately, via the clever, hesitant and rewarding reluctance of his trainer (Dundee) - who shrewdly thought to, first, before following Ali's request to cut his gloves off, look across the ring . . . to see how Frazier, and more importantly what (his trainer) Futch, was doing.

b) Another not quite so exhausted, but both almost blind and equally legendary fighter (Frazier), who was very reluctant to have the fight stopped; only to have Eddie Futch dismiss that iconic and insanely brave notion to make a judgment call in favour of his fighter's health - something that turned out to be both a fateful and famous decision (in many ways) that would go on to echo through eternity for . . not just Futch - but also both Frazier and Ali in equal magnitudes - but, unfortunately for Frazier, at entirely opposite ends of the integer scale.

You - or even Mickey Rourke - simply couldn't script an ending like that, and that's why boxing is the theatre of life and the unexpected; as both are not mutually exclusive.

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stormcentre:

"Floyd,the ghost of fights you should have taken will haunt you forevvvvvvvvvver and follow you to the grave and beyond, "Why didn't you fite Pac, or Why didn't Fraud fite Pac, why o why?!"

BirdDog.

Where you been man?

Cool alias.

Tell us (what you're comfortable with) about yourself.

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stormcentre:

Oh did I mention this game is all about money?

You have to understand all the revenue streams before all the decisions even start to make sense.

Reply

stormcentre:

"Arum loses nothing if Pacquiao loses to Mayweather. Future PPV marketability? Those days are over for both fighters, but particularly for Pacquiao. The prospect of Pacquiao losing doesn't aound like a feasible reason to block a fight that will yield Top Rank more money than two or three other Pacman fights combined"



You may be right.



But then you may be wrong too.



Bob and TR's new (2 year old) business plan involves capturing the Asian market, and currently I still see no-one (in the TR stables) that can assist Mr. Arum with that task as well as Pacquaio; particularly whilst he is both a wildly popular active fighter and politician.



Aside from that, and on a pure boxing level, who (at the moment) has TR got that is marketable and dynamic as Pacquaio both has been and is?



The guy is a flowing river of money for Bob and TR in so many ways.



Plus, he doesn't give Bob any of the egotistical push-back and/or other legal headaches that most other big (or even half Manny's popularity) boxing stars do.



For the most part Pacquaio just acts in accordance with the promotional contract.



Finally, (regardless of TR's above-mentioned Asian interests and business model) what a future contact for Bob Arum to have in (looking after) Manny Pacquaio . . . I mean, look at (the geographic locations of) some of the biggest and most memorable fights in history . .



Thriller in Manilla, Rumble in the Jungle . . etc.



I can't see how it does Bob any good not to nurture and covet the best investment he has got and had for a while.



Particularly considering that Pacquaio could one day be the guy that influences/decides whether an Asian and/or Philippine nation and/or given territorial area spends tax dollars (or the equivalent in Philippine currency) on a big Top Rank fight - just as the Indonesian heads of state did for Frazier and Ali with the Thriller In Manilla all those years ago.



Arum may rub the fans, fighters and other promoters up the wrong way from time to time, but the guy is shrewd, smart and a lawyer.



You don't get to be, and last, in the boxing-promotional game, for as long as Bob has been without being absolutely crackling sharp and extremely savvy.



Additionally, there's a reason Bob promoted and lined up Chris Algeiri (a solid B grade fighter) to fight Pacquaio (a solid A++) fighter, and it's not because Arum loses nothing if Pacquiao loses, to Mayweather or anyone.



Anyway, I get your point and appreciate the fact you made it.



I see you're relatively new here - welcome.



Finally, we all enjoy a solid and healthy debate on this forum, and I am by no means right just because I come across with confidence.



So, please, let me have it if I am wrong.



:cool:

Reply

dino da vinci:

I want to say the last time I saw him fight was about 20 years ago. Remember absolutely nothing other than he was tough.

Reply

Birddog:

Floyd,the ghost of fights you should have taken will haunt you forevvvvvvvvvver and follow you to the grave and beyond, "Why didn't you fite Pac, or Why didn't Fraud fite Pac, why o why?!

Reply

dino da vinci:

"John the Beast Mugabi vs Gennady Golovkin.

It's 2014, John Mugabi has 31 straight knocouts, including a ko victory over Chavez Junior at a catch weight of 169 lbs. He's been made the number one challenger at 160 lbs by every alphabet sanctioning body. But it just so happens that none of the other champs are quite ready to face the beast even when threatened with being stripped of their titles.

Jacobs, Quillen, Lemieu, and even Andy Lee find ways to be too busy by either feeding their newborn babies, Participating in polical activism, assisting in feed the hungry drives or carrying sand bags in some foreign country after a being hit by a hurricane.

But there is one fighter who saw Mugabi's destruction of the cement chinned Chavez Jr.... And his juices started flowing. Finally a challenger has emerged...GGG thinks to himself.... he looks like a veddy good boy.
Held 200 ft below ground and locked behind a five inch thick solid iron door the monster stirs.

Gennady's handlers remove the shackles, chains, and restraining bars that have held him in his self imposed imprisonment until a worthy challenger could be found.
*****************************************************************************************************
I know ...sounds like an epic action flick directed by Stephen Chow ( Kung Fun Hustle) but I think Mugabi vs GGG would be and equally epic fight.
When fighters are still undefeated, they usually carry an aura of invincibility and supreme confidence that seems to elevate them to a status of near immortality as the fighter cannot comprehend the meaning of losing a fight......Its a frame of mind in which they usually do their best work.

Even the Marvelous Marvin Hagler had to keep his hands high while chipping away at Mugabi from the out side until the Beast finally revealed his mortal side.

After the fight Hagler literally had knots on his forehead where Mugabi hit him over his high guard. (Who does that???)

I think Golovkin has a 60-40 chance to defeat Mugabi if he can keep from getting cut too badly. I also envision him tasting the canvas at least once or twice for the first time due to his irresistible tendacy to trade. But in the long run Golovkins ability to change the arc of his punches on the fly and land punches from every angle, eventually wears the fearless Mugabi down by the late rounds, ... subsequently ending the fight via stunning KO."



Some of your best work. I loved the middleweights from that era. Led by the Marvelous One himself.

Reply

dino da vinci:

Great, accurate posts.

By the way, you're not obligated to stay at the host casino. You have literally 150,000 choices.

Reply

Radam G:

"Merchant was in on that eh?

Well, I didn't know that."


Hehehe! I'm not the only one that has ever hid in plain sight. Larry Merchant is a serial investor in pugs. Holla!

Reply

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Boxing Results

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Adonis Stevenson

Dmitry Sukhotsky

KO Rd. 5

Bryan Vasquez

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RTD Rd. 9

Hanna Gabriels

Paty Ramirez

KO Rd. 2

Roman Martinez

Herbert Quartey

KO Rd. 2

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