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Pazuzu:

Epic. Great stuff.

Only on TSS are we treated to Gentleman Gerry punching out St. Nick, and then making good on it.

Merry Christmas, fellas.

Reply

Radam G:

You were NICE with it! That dat was da BOMB! Holla!

Reply

Radam G:

"You read it wrong, Rad. Lampley has unimpeachable integrity. He couldn't buy a Jim Lampley with a boxcar full of money."



Hehehehe! I was being a sarcastic Grinch who loves being down with O-P-P on Christmas morning. Hey! Y'all know me!



I know that J-Lamp is a shinning star of honest in a seedy, shady, sleazy sport that we all like like a naughty, old uncle who is always talking syet and beating you climbing up coconut trees at a 114-year-old.



I told Tio Mamoy that Santa Claus might be passing by on his sleigh with the reindeer, and Rudolph might kicked him in the dome.



Tio went OFF! "I will have P-Island nighthawks to puck up 'em reindeer, and I'll kick Santa's pat arse. Muthapuckaaaaa...." And then Tio Mamoy felt to sleep. Hahaha! Holla!

Reply

Froggy:

WOW, great stuff again Randy G and also merry Christmas to all at TSS !

Reply

stormcentre:

Brilliant stuff Commish.

Reply

Froggy:

Great article and great post brownsugar ! How is tsAH selling his product to NBC ? I can't believe NBC is dumb enough to put out money for one-sided fights, if they are that dumb, good, they should lose their shirt if boxing fans start watching only what is worth their time to watch !

Reply

brownsugar:

There is really nothing good to say about a promoter who pits his fighters against international unknown "journey men" week after week ( l struggle out of respect not to call them bums).

How many times can a dyed in the wool boxing fan watch a top level boxer fight another unknown no-hope opponent? And still maintain any level of interest. Watching a fighter fight just for the sake of watching a fight is like playing poker for a glass of water.

People watch football all season because the regular season games lead to the climax of the going to the Super Bowl. There's a sense the competing teams on a quest... and not just simply treading water for our lack of amusement.

However in 2013 Haymon gave us many blockbusters when he had to go head to head with HBO... ( after being booted for dribbling and dabbling with the competition)....boxing has always been about "what have you done for me lately" . I really don't want to see Dawson or Fonfara get their groove back on live TV. Complacency on Haymon's behalf is a huge error when a Deep Pocketed Mogul like J-Z is throwing buckets loads of cash at your fighters in broad daylight just to promote quality Shows.

Combining a music concert featuring top entertainers with an entre' of competitive fights will become the norm eventually, especially for the jaded thrill seekers of NY NY. Its only a matter of time.

Fights like Berto / Guerrero, Thurman/ Soto Karas, Mayweather / Canelo, and Mattysse versus Garcia actually had us glued to the tube and generated interest, ....it got people talking about boxing again. The only people profiting this year under the Haymon banner are the companies making anti-sleep preparations and caffiene products ...
Why suddenly start shifting in reverse after gaining so much foreward momentum the year before?
Why duck a middleweight whom Andy Lee could stop within 6 rounds? Not to take anything away from Lee but Quillen passed on 1.5 mil just to supervise his couch and change diapers. I would have went after the money and paid somebody else to watch my new borne...college is pretty expensive these days.

Match 'em tough, they won't die. Maybe boxing will return to its former Glory.

Reply

brownsugar:

"@bs. No such thing as a fledgling Leonard.



By the way, your usual great work as of late has been a notch above phenomenal. I know I speak for everyone here when I say we appreciate it. Thx brown..."




Thanks I'm also smart enough to know when fold'm you guys have way to many excellent posts for me to argue with. So I'm stepping away from this one ....lol.

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dino da vinci:

@bs. No such thing as a fledgling Leonard.

By the way, your usual great work as of late has been a notch above phenomenal. I know I speak for everyone here when I say we appreciate it. Thx brown...

Reply

dino da vinci:

You read it wrong, Rad. Lampley has unimpeachable integrity. He couldn't buy a Jim Lampley with a boxcar full of money.

Reply

Gabrielito:

Haymon is attempting to do what Dana White has done, and that of course is securing a monopoly on fighters. And there will be lawsuits just like the one Cung Le and others have filed against White. ...

Edit

Dino da Vinci

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Radam G:

Wow! Danggit! I smell a shadow! Somebody and dey sidekick tell me ain't it so!

The mysterious tsAH now has J-Lamp in his camp. OMFG! This dude tsAH is a giving-dat-big-moolah tramp. With any of the corrupted, crooked alphabet-sanctioning organizations, he can decide who is going to be champ.

TsAh is on the go, and having it his way. Nobody appears able to run this _____ ______ _____ off the becoming the top-dawg-controlling-the-whole-9 ramp. Holla!

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deepwater2:

"Big Floyd was not able to clinch SRL because SRL prevented it with his arm tucked close to his body and firing straights and shoeshines when Big just try to tie him up. Clinching requires cooperation and tuck-less arms so that you can grab them to prevent oncoming shots and missiles.



Lil' Floyd also would not have been able to tie SRL up. SRL was a demon against clinchers. He gave them no cooperation and fast shot and missiled them silly. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYNEp7qjQQ4. Holla!"




I love that video. SRL is a real p4p champion. Floyd falls short compared to Sugar Ray. One look at this video clip settles any argument.

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Radam G:

"While I agree SRL was too big, too strong, to brash and relentless for little Floyd to handle, I think there are chasms that separate little Floyd and Floyd SR. The beatdown SRL put on senior Floyd was tough to watch, an example of how merciless a fighter gets when he smells blood and SRL was suffocated by it as early as round 2. Little Floyd would NEVER allow himself to be stationary target practice. I was stunned watching the damaged incurred by Floyd SR and in large measure because he didn't/wasn't able to tie SRL up on the inside, something little Floyd is very adept at. Could someone explain this? Floyd SR was a very capable boxer, with A tier speed, effective countering abilities and a tight shoulder roll defense, and yet could not throw his arms out to grab an opponent who is throwing everything but the kitchen sink? It was the behavior of a frightened child, who accepts the doled out punishment."



Big Floyd was not able to clinch SRL because SRL prevented it with his arm tucked close to his body and firing straights and shoeshines when Big just try to tie him up. Clinching requires cooperation and tuck-less arms so that you can grab them to prevent oncoming shots and missiles.



Lil' Floyd also would not have been able to tie SRL up. SRL was a demon against clinchers. He gave them no cooperation and fast shot and missiled them silly. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYNEp7qjQQ4. Holla!

Reply

ericfarrell85:

While I agree SRL was too big, too strong, to brash and relentless for little Floyd to handle, I think there are chasms that separate little Floyd and Floyd SR. The beatdown SRL put on senior Floyd was tough to watch, an example of how merciless a fighter gets when he smells blood and SRL was suffocated by it as early as round 2. Little Floyd would NEVER allow himself to be stationary target practice. I was stunned watching the damaged incurred by Floyd SR and in large measure because he didn't/wasn't able to tie SRL up on the inside, something little Floyd is very adept at. Could someone explain this? Floyd SR was a very capable boxer, with A tier speed, effective countering abilities and a tight shoulder roll defense, and yet could not throw his arms out to grab an opponent who is throwing everything but the kitchen sink? It was the behavior of a frightened child, who accepts the doled out punishment.

Reply

stormcentre:

I like SRL against Mayweather if the fight is at light welterweight or welterweight.

Actually I can see SRL stopping Floyd at welterweight.

Not sure about the outcome of the fight between them if it was at featherweight or lightweight, as Floyd was bottled lightening there - but my understanding is that Leonard only fought there, in those weights, as an amateur - not as a professional.

Notwithstanding the below mentioned caveat; (unlike Floyd) as a professional fighter the only major titles SRL contested for where at welterweight or above.

SRL may have professionally boxed as a light welterweight, but if so then (unless he contested welterweight contests as a light welterweight) this would have been prior to 1979 where, in that year, he successfully fought for (his first and) the NABF Welterweight Championship title and in doing so he TKO'd Pete Ranzany within 4 rounds - in August of that year.

As an adjunct, the weight division thresholds between the professional ranks and amateur/Olympic boxing can also differ; leading to some confusion - I know that's caught me out sometimes too.

Additionally, there is also the fact that sometimes - particularly when assessing fantasy match-ups that include past times, divisions, fighters and sanctions - often there were no "super" and "junior" divisions then.

More on that later *.

But yes, as an amateur boxer, SRL did compete, many times successfully, at featherweight, lightweight, and also light welterweight - but (according to my understanding) not ever as an amateur welterweight; as he rose through the ranks and ended up representing America in many inter/national championship contests . . . including;

1) The 1973 National Golden Gloves - Lightweight Champion

2) The 1974 National Golden Gloves - Light Welterweight Champion.

3) The 1974 North American Championships (Milwaukee, Wisconsin) - Light Welterweight Gold Medalist.

4) The 1975 National AAU Championship - Light Welterweight Champion.

5) The 1975 North American Championships (Miami, Florida) - Light Welterweight Gold Medalist.

6) The 1975 Pan American Games (Mexico City, Mexico) - Light Welterweight Gold Medalist.

7) The 1976 Olympics (Montreal, Quebec, Canada) - Light Welterweight Gold Medalist.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

* The junior welterweight, super lightweight, and/or light welterweight weight division in professional boxing usually has a lower weight limit of 63.5 kg or 140 pounds.

Pinky Mitchell was one of, if not, the first champion of the light welterweight weight division, and that was way back in 1946.

At the time, controversy was abound with that consideration though; a light welterweight weight division and champion.

As records have it that Mitchell was only awarded his light welterweight championship by way of voting by readers of a popular boxing magazine of the times back then.

Initially, widespread acceptance of Pinky Mitchell as a light welterweight champion, and/or the light welterweight division itself, was met with raised noses and eyebrows.

In fact, during the light welterweight divisions' early years, which (I think) was somewhere around 1930 - 1940 . . . it's believed that the New York State Athletic Commission, rather pretentiously, withdrew their recognition of the entire (light welterweight) division; defaulting to consider all those whom thought they were light welterweights as simply welterweights!

Apparently the (initial, partial and temporary {remember boxing has a very splintered structure}) death nell for the light welterweight division took place in the mid 1930's when the much loved champion of it, Barney Ross, then relinquished his professional light welterweight title to . . do nothing other than focus on regaining the welterweight championship; which was widely considered to be a more "real" and/or legitimate division.

Back then, the symbolic inference with Ross’ relinquishment of his professional light welterweight title was widely interpreted and/or considered similarly to that of nowadays when one considers how numerous, splintered, and fragmented the WBA champions (in any weight division) can be.

When Barney Ross made this move some of the other boxing organisations then also discontinued to recognize the light welterweight division/championship as a legitimate consideration - further leading to its temporary demise.

However, as/after that happened and throughout the 1940s, some boxing commissions still acknowledged light welterweight bouts, and this kept the candle burning for the weight division’s current popularity.

But, with that said, the true genesis of the modern light welterweight era and its championships are really widely considered to originate around 1960; symbolized by Carlos Ortiz' defeat of Kenny Lane for the vacant light welterweight title.

When that happened both the WBA and WBC also (meaningfully) recognized the light welterweight division and its champion(s) like Ortiz.

What ensued was the WBC doing the same and meaningfully recognizing the light welterweight division and its champion(s).

This happened (roughly) in 1967, and it was the result of Pedro Adigue defeating Adolph Pruitt for the WBC light welterweight championship over a hard fought fifteen round decision.

As soon as the WBA and WBC jumped on board with the light welterweight division, as above-mentioned, the IBF, in 1984, also saw the pecuniary potential of such a business model (with more weight divisions and therefore fees to collect).

As a result, it is largely accepted that the IBF then symbolically and officially ushered in the light welterweight division.

They did this with their acknowledgement of Aaron Pryor as the first IBF light welterweight champion, and what a great champion he turned out to be.

I am not sure whether it is Kostya Tszyu or Julio Csar Chvez (probably the latter) that currently holds the light welterweight division record for the most consecutive title defences (although Tszyu was the first to unify the light welterweight division for quite a few decades).

My uncertainty arises from the fact that, aside from a decent initial reign in the division, both guys have also successfully defended their light welterweight titles after losing and regaining them.

Not many light welterweights have done that.

A good light welterweight can hit almost as hard as a modern day super/middleweight, whilst also retaining the speed of a featherweight, and that’s frightening.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As you can see from the above information, SRL (as an amateur) had competed in the light welterweight division at around 1974, for the national golden gloves; where he became the light welterweight champion.

To the best of my knowledge SRL also competed - as an amateur - for some of the preceding year (1973) - also in the light welterweight division.

But that couldn't have been for more than a year.

Because early in 1973 SRL also became the amateur lightweight champion, and that took place at the 1973 national golden gloves championship.

Therefore, given . . . .

a) All the above, particularly the fact that SRL was an amateur light welterweight champion in 1974.

b) When the professional boxing sanctions first began to seriously recognise the light welterweight division.

c) The fact that SRL's first fight was in 1977 against Louis Vega - where he won a unanimous decision over 6 rounds.

It's extremely probable that the light welterweight division was established and up and running when, in 1977, SRL had his first professional fight.

Particularly considering that, at that time, amateur boxing took many pointers (or more than they now do) from professional boxing, with the greatest immediately observable differentiator being the amount of rounds fought.

So if Leonard was competing as an amateur light welterweight in 1974, then the chances are that the professional light welterweight division was also well established by then; which was a few years before SRL’s first professional fight in 1977.

This all seems to both, support the fact that SRL debuted at light welterweight whilst also aligning with the above-mentioned information pertaining to the true genesis of the modern light welterweight era and its championships being widely considered to originate around 1960; when Carlos Ortiz' defeated Kenny Lane for the vacant light welterweight title

Therefore any confusion that may exist as to whether the light welterweight division (and its assumed upper/lower weight thresholds) was in such a metamorphic state when Leonard turned, or was a, professional light/welterweight fighter, to such an extent that we can consider - for the purposes of the fantasy matchup and SRL’s career - that a light welterweight fighter is the same as a welterweight fighter (please note; a similar consideration existed in a Shadow's previous fantasy matchup); is almost completely null and void.

Confirming this viewpoint is the fact that Leonard's first two professional fights (and possibly even more after that) were actually against light welterweights.

Once (probably even before these guys, but I can't be bothered checking) SRL was fighting guys like Dick Eklund and Floyd Mayweather Sr; Leonard was professionally competing as a welterweight fighter, and in that division - where he arguably was the most dangerous and enjoyed most of his boxing prowess, fame and success.

Therefore, for me . . . when considering - professionally and at welterweight - Sugar Ray Leonard against Floyd Mayweather Jr. . . . .

Sugar Ray Leonard would have too much; (overall hand, mind and feet) activity, (proven) power, combinations, and ring savvy; for Floyd.

Under that pressure I don’t believe Floyd would be able to feel loose and relaxed enough to move all the intricate parts of his slick machinery whilst also strategically thinking and breathing the way he needs to.

Something would give.

Also, Floyd's style; I don't think it would bother Leonard that much either.

Not sure about the boxing IQ debate.

As Floyd is not only a genius fighter – but his IQ is (to some extent) on display more than Leonard's.

But with that said, Leonard fought better opposition as well. So even though SRL’s displays of boxing IQ may be less than Floyd’s, for me, I actually think . . . . . . . . . had Floyd fought all the best in his division(s) (the way SRL did) . . . or, . . . had Floyd faced who SRL did; then Floyd’s visibly displayed boxing IQ would perceivably be less than Ray’s.

Make no mistake about it though Mayweather is a boxing mastermind.

But just as I say here (http://www.thesweetscience.com/forums/showthread.php?19074-The-Ten-Point-Total-System&p=72918&viewfull=1#post72918 ) how Floyd’s fight-plan approach has cleverly evolved to best suit professional boxing, judges and scoring; so too did Leonard’s.

In fact, I wouldn’t mind betting that Floyd was seriously/heavily influenced by SRL as Floyd grew up and fought as an amateur – particularly the beating SRL laid on Floyd Sr.

Yes, as I write this and think of how good Leonard was, particularly against seriously dangerous opposition, I feel it must be SRL whose better.

I mean, could you imagine Floyd being faced with (that’s if he signed the contract) Hagler - or even today's closest version of him . . . 3G?

(Yes I know the Hagler V Leonard fight is not a light/welterweight bout, but still it shows the success and/or confidence Leonard had, at almost any weight he campaigned at, with his skills, experience and power).

I should say that I am probably biased with this review though, as SRL is the man as far as I am concerned.

I loved SRL's style, substance, and skills.

To come out of retirement and fight Hagler, let alone do it so well, . . well, that’s just incredible.

And, I also loved how Leonard could sustain technical perfection (or close to it) during both shootouts and very high levels of both fatigue and fighting duress (against quality operators); which was a widely unrecognized skill that - in equal quantities to how well SRL carried his power into the welterweight and higher divisions - sets SRL apart from Floyd in my opinion.

Then, of course, as above-mentioned, you have the fact that Ray also dominated the man that taught Floyd; Floyd Sr.

That’s a serious psychological advantage right there.

But then the laws of relativity and causation do not permit - not even for this TSS fantasy matchup - Floyd Jr. travelling back in time to a historical reference point where Floyd Jr. could meaningfully be concerned about the fact that his father had not fared incredibly well about the man his son is (now, in the past) about to fantasy fight.

It's a similar consideration to (supposedly) travelling back in time and killing your grandparents.

Aside from whether one can travel back in time (let's just imagine you can); what happens when you do and if you accidentally kill your grandparents?

Puff of smoke.

Crystal Meth anyone?

OK, wake up now.

Merry Xmas TSS crew.

Reply

deepwater2:

"@deep. That's great to hear. Good for you. When you come to Vegas I'll share some insights that you're free to do what you want with. But in a nutshell, start with this.

In the way they have systematically destroyed amateur boxing, whatever they show you there you should leave there.

Effective aggression comes into play as often as they hit grand slam home runs in the bottom of the ninth with two outs and down by 3. Exactly 3.

Be humbled by the position. You have a huge impact on not only the career of a fighter, but his life, his hopes, his dreams.
Throw out all prejudices. All. Doesn't matter one fighter has sneakers on and trunks worn by half his gym. Forget he has a nonentity working his corner while across the ring there's the trainer of the hour. Who's kid is in a thousand dollar robe, trunks and matching cornermen garb. Who's kid looks flashy while the opponent drew his name on with a magic marker.
Rounds are scored in 180 second increments. It's really hard to get them wrong. After you see the round, forget you've seen it. Start fresh. Great work in the opening stanza means nothing in a less than competitive 2nd round. There are no mulligans. You don't owe anybody on the planet anything except those two brave souls who start each round at center ring. And those two? Those two you owe everything. They've brought every mile of road work with them. Every setback, every injury. Every time they suffered a setback in the gym or in a bout they had to look their spouse in the eye, or trainer, or parent , or whoever have you and summons the courage to do it all over again. Who are you to get it wrong?
Pleasing styles mean nothing. Punches that miss thrown by a stylist miss. Punches thrown by the Ernie Shavers of the world that miss or land to no effect are to be graded accordingly.

(As I type slow I'm 50-50 to lose this work. Putting my kids to bed. Will be right back.)"


Thanks. Very good advice. I would never want to be in the amateurs for too long but it is recommended to have up to 6 months experience but not more than that. I want to be used to the crowd , filling out the card with a drunk fan yelling behind my ear and get used to it. I will be a machine in there with no emotion and just use the criteria. No favorites for me.

Reply

deepwater2:

"Lol! So, you want to be a fight judge, huh?



-Randy G."




I sure do.

Reply

Froggy:

"I don't think this would be a close fight. SRL at 147 was the best welter I have seen as a fan of boxing for 35+ years. Ray at 147 beat ATG's Benitez, Duran, and Hearns. Floyd's best wins at 147 are Judah, Mosley, and Maidana. Ray was a mean streak killer. If he got you hurt you were in big trouble. If Floyd lands a hard punch he will most likely circle away. Two different eras. Floyd might not have been Champion if he had to deal with the likes of Benitez, Duran, and Hearns. Floyd might not have been Champ if he had to deal with prime Trinidad, De La Hoya, and Quartey. SRL would stop a bleeding Floyd in 9 or 10 one sided rounds"



100% correct, Floyd would never have been welterweight champ at the time of Leonard, Benitez, Duran and Hearns ! He would not even fought any of them if he could avoid it, but junior welterweight had Aaron Pryor and he wouldn't want to face him either ! He would probably have moved up to lightweight after Duran left the division and not before ! It would be a terrible era for poor Floyd !

Reply

New York Tony:

Hey, he looks a bit like Slapsie Maxie.

Reply

stormcentre:

"I don't think this would be a close fight. SRL at 147 was the best welter I have seen as a fan of boxing for 35+ years. Ray at 147 beat ATG's Benitez, Duran, and Hearns. Floyd's best wins at 147 are Judah, Mosley, and Maidana. Ray was a mean streak killer. If he got you hurt you were in big trouble. If Floyd lands a hard punch he will most likely circle away. Two different eras. Floyd might not have been Champion if he had to deal with the likes of Benitez, Duran, and Hearns. Floyd might not have been Champ if he had to deal with prime Trinidad, De La Hoya, and Quartey. SRL would stop a bleeding Floyd in 9 or 10 one sided rounds"



Good points.



Of course I like them because they agree with me.



:cool:

Reply

stormcentre:

I like SRL against Mayweather if the fight is at light welterweight or welterweight.

Actually I can see SRL stopping Floyd at welterweight.

Not sure about the outcome of the fight between them if it was at featherweight or lightweight, as Floyd was bottled lightening there - but my understanding is that Leonard only fought there, in those weights, as an amateur - not as a professional.

Notwithstanding the below mentioned caveat; (unlike Floyd) as a professional fighter the only major titles SRL contested for where at welterweight or above.

SRL may have professionally boxed as a light welterweight, but if so then (unless he contested welterweight contests as a light welterweight) this would have been prior to 1979 where, in that year, he successfully fought for (his first and) the NABF Welterweight Championship title and in doing so he TKO'd Pete Ranzany within 4 rounds - in August of that year.

As an adjunct, the weight division thresholds between the professional ranks and amateur/Olympic boxing can also differ; leading to some confusion - I know that's caught me out sometimes too.

Additionally, there is also the fact that sometimes - particularly when assessing fantasy match-ups that include past times, divisions, fighters and sanctions - often there were no "super" and "junior" divisions then.

More on that later *.

But yes, as an amateur boxer, SRL did compete, many times successfully, at featherweight, lightweight, and also light welterweight - but (according to my understanding) not ever as an amateur welterweight; as he rose through the ranks and ended up representing America in many inter/national championship contests . . . including;

1) The 1973 National Golden Gloves - Lightweight Champion

2) The 1974 National Golden Gloves - Light Welterweight Champion.

3) The 1974 North American Championships (Milwaukee, Wisconsin) - Light Welterweight Gold Medalist.

4) The 1975 National AAU Championship - Light Welterweight Champion.

5) The 1975 North American Championships (Miami, Florida) - Light Welterweight Gold Medalist.

6) The 1975 Pan American Games (Mexico City, Mexico) - Light Welterweight Gold Medalist.

7) The 1976 Olympics (Montreal, Quebec, Canada) - Light Welterweight Gold Medalist.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

* The junior welterweight, super lightweight, and/or light welterweight weight division in professional boxing usually has a lower weight limit of 63.5 kg or 140 pounds.

Pinky Mitchell was one of, if not the first, champion of this weight class, and that was way back in 1946. At the time, controversy was abound with that consideration though. As records have it that he was only awarded his light welterweight championship by way of voting by readers of a popular boxing magazine of the times back then.

Initially, widespread acceptance of Pinky Mitchell (as a champion of the following weight division) and/or the light welterweight division itself was met with raised noses and eyebrows.

In fact, in the light welterweight divisions' early years, which (I think was) somewhere around 1930 - 1940 . . . it's believed that the New York State Athletic Commission, rather pretentiously, withdrew their recognition of the entire (light welterweight) division; defaulting to consider all those whom thought they were light welterweights as simply welterweights!

Apparently the (initial, partial and temporary {remember boxing has a very splintered structure}) death nell for the light welterweight division took place in the mid 1930's when the much loved champion of it, Barney Ross, then relinquished his professional light welterweight title to . . do nothing other than focus on regaining the welterweight (and what was widely considered to be a more "real" division and therefore) championship.

When Barney Ross did this some other organisations discontinued to recognize the light welterweight division/championship as a legitimate consideration - further leading to it's demise.

As that happened some boxing commissions still acknowledged light welterweight bouts throughout the 1940s.

But, with that said, the true genesis of the modern light welterweight era and its championships are really widely considered to originate around 1960; symbolised by Carlos Ortiz' defeat of Kenny Lane for the vacant light welterweight title.

When that happened both the WBA and WBC also (meaningfully) recognized the light welterweight division and its champion(s) like Ortiz.

What ensued was the WBC doing the same and meaningfully recognizing the light welterweight division and its champion(s). This happened (roughly) in 1967, and it was the result of Pedro Adigue defeating Adolph Pruitt for the WBC light welterweight championship over a fifteen round hard fought decision.

As soon as the WBA and WBC jumped on board with the light welterweight division, the IBF, in 1984, also saw the pecuniary potential of such a business model (with more weight divisions and therefore fees to collect), and as a result it is largely accepted that the IBF then symbolically and officially ushered in the light welterweight division with their acknowledgement of Aaron Pryor as the first IBF light welterweight champion.

I am not sure whether it is Kostya Tszyu or Julio Csar Chvez (probably the latter) that currently holds the light welterweight division record for the most consecutive title defences. As, aside from a decent initial reign in the division, both guys have also successfully defended their light welterweight titles after losing and regaining them.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As you can see from the above information, SRL (as an amateur) had competed in the light welterweight division at around 1974, for the National Golden Gloves; where he became the light welterweight champion.

To the best of my knowledge SRL has also competed - as an amateur - for some of the preceding year (1973) - also in the light welterweight division.

But that couldn't have been for more than a year, because in 1973 SRL also became the amateur light weight champion at the 1973 national golden gloves championship.

So given . . . .

a) All the above.

b) Particularly when the professional boxing sanctions first began to seriously recognise the light welterweight division.

c) And also the fact that SRL's first fight was in 1977 against Louis Vega - where he won a unanimous decision over 6 rounds.

It's extremely probable that the light welterweight division was established when SRL turned professional - particularly considering that, at that time, amateur boxing took many pointers (or more than they now do) from professional boxing, with the greatest immediately observable differentiator being the amount of rounds fought.

Therefore any confusion that may exist as to whether the light welterweight division and its assumed upper/lower weight thresholds, was in such a metamorphic state when Leonard was a professional light/welterweight fighter, to such an extent that we can consider - for the purposes of SRL, the fantasy matchup, and his career - that a light welterweight fighter is the same as a welterweight fighter (note; a similar consideration existed in a Shadow's previous fantasy matchup); is almost completely null and void.

Confirming this viewpoint is the fact that Leonard's first two professional fights, and possibly more, where against light welterweights.

Once (probably before, but I can't be bothered checking) SRL was fighting guys like Dick Eklund and Floyd Mayweather Sr; Leonard was professionally competing as a welterweight and in that division - where he arguably was the most dangerous and enjoyed most of his boxing prowess, fame and success.

Therefore, for me . . . when considering - professionally and at welterweight - Sugar Ray Leonard against Floyd Mayweather Jr. . . . .

Sugar Ray Leonard would have too much; (overall hand, mind and feel) activity, (proven) power, combinations, and ring savvy for Floyd to feel loose and relaxed enough to move all the intricate parts of his machinery and strategically think and breath the way he needs to.

Also, Floyd's style, I don't think, would not bother Leonard that much either.

But could you imagine Floyd being faced with (if he signed) Hagler - or even today's closest version of him . . . 3G?

Yes I know the Hagler V Leonard fight is not a light/welterweight bout, but still it shows the success/confidence Leonard had with his skills, experience and power.

I am probably biased though, as SRL is the man as far as I am concerned.

I loved SRL's style, substance and skills.

And I loved how Leonard could sustain technical perfection (or close to it) during both shootouts and very high levels of fatigue and fighting duress (against quality operators); which was a widely unrecognised skill that sets SRL miles apart from Floyd in my opinion - in equal quantities to how well SRL has carried power into the welterweight and higher divisions.

Then, of course, you have the fact that Ray also dominated the man that taught Floyd; Floyd Sr.

But then the laws of relativity and causation do not permit - not even for this TSS fantasy matchup - Floyd Jr travelling back in time to a historical reference point where Floyd Jr. could meaningfully be concerned about the fact that his father had not fared incredibly well about the man his son is about to fantasy fight.

It's a similar consideration to (supposedly) travelling back in time and killing your grandparents.

Aside from whether one can travel back in time (let's just imagine you can); what happens when you do and if you accidentally kill your grandparents?

Merry Xmas TSS crew.

Reply

the Roast:

I don't think this would be a close fight. SRL at 147 was the best welter I have seen as a fan of boxing for 35+ years. Ray at 147 beat ATG's Benitez, Duran, and Hearns. Floyd's best wins at 147 are Judah, Mosley, and Maidana. Ray was a mean streak killer. If he got you hurt you were in big trouble. If Floyd lands a hard punch he will most likely circle away. Two different eras. Floyd might not have been Champion if he had to deal with the likes of Benitez, Duran, and Hearns. Floyd might not have been Champ if he had to deal with prime Trinidad, De La Hoya, and Quartey. SRL would stop a bleeding Floyd in 9 or 10 one sided rounds

Reply

stormcentre:

"Julie Ledermans recent work even surpassed the ineptitude of CJ Ross this past weekend, but up to that moment she was considered to be a competent judge.

Where do you draw the line? Is Lederman to become the next protected sacred cow? Or does she need to be villified to the point of resignation, Or do they send her back for a refresher course?



It seems like until a big name has suffered at the hands of poor judging and there's a public outcry for change......its just business as usual. The bigger the fighter the bigger the consequences.



my question is where do judges come from? The Commish wrote about the process of how he hired a judge through a mutual acquaintance. That was a marvelous comment, and im certainly not picking on the Commish, but is there an official formal application process for the judges position?



Mailmen, Policemen and Firefighters take rigorous exams from a field of thousands of applicants to determine the best people qualified for the specific challenges of the job.

Hollywood producers hold regular auditions where hundreds of hopefuls compete from all around the country to earn a spot in a show.



It would seem that such a high profile and coveted position as judging fights,....... A position that directly effects the careers of their clients, ( the fighters ) ... whose success and finacial livelihoods depend exclusively on their ability to pick the correct winner, ....would broaden its hiring process to recruit the best qualified applicants from the largest pool of talent possible.



As it stands ... Most judges have never boxed a day in their lives...thier names are heard week after week but nobody even knows what they look like. They never have to give interviews like the often embarrassing interviews given to the boxers ......."how does it feel champ, to get knocked the f@%k out in front of millions of viewers??".



Where is the accountability? If a ref has to give an interview, why can't a judge?



Robbers and thieves get tossed in jail, judges just pick up their paychecks and slink out the backdoor with no one any the wiser.



I think we need to increase the visibility of the judges. It would be like making a hair trigger cop wear a body-cam.

Have them enter the ring and take a bow before the fight official starts.

If they can't climb up the steps I question their ability to have the occular coordination to judge a fight.



Give them star status, let the fans see them holding their pencils. Give them a twitter account so the social media express their opinions to the source.



Maybe that's too extreme. My point is....everything about judging should be way more transparent than it is today and the recruiting process should be opened up to attract more qualified applicants."




Good post/points BS.



Merry Xmas.

Reply

dino da vinci:

@deep. That's great to hear. Good for you. When you come to Vegas I'll share some insights that you're free to do what you want with. But in a nutshell, start with this.

In the way they have systematically destroyed amateur boxing, whatever they show you there you should leave there.

Effective aggression comes into play as often as they hit grand slam home runs in the bottom of the ninth with two outs and down by 3. Exactly 3.

Be humbled by the position. You have a huge impact on not only the career of a fighter, but his life, his hopes, his dreams.
Throw out all prejudices. All. Doesn't matter one fighter has sneakers on and trunks worn by half his gym. Forget he has a nonentity working his corner while across the ring there's the trainer of the hour. Who's kid is in a thousand dollar robe, trunks and matching cornermen garb. Who's kid looks flashy while the opponent drew his name on with a magic marker.
Rounds are scored in 180 second increments. It's really hard to get them wrong. After you see the round, forget you've seen it. Start fresh. Great work in the opening stanza means nothing in a less than competitive 2nd round. There are no mulligans. You don't owe anybody on the planet anything except those two brave souls who start each round at center ring. And those two? Those two you owe everything. They've brought every mile of road work with them. Every setback, every injury. Every time they suffered a setback in the gym or in a bout they had to look their spouse in the eye, or trainer, or parent , or whoever have you and summons the courage to do it all over again. Who are you to get it wrong?
Pleasing styles mean nothing. Punches that miss thrown by a stylist miss. Punches thrown by the Ernie Shavers of the world that miss or land to no effect are to be graded accordingly.

(As I type slow I'm 50-50 to lose this work. Putting my kids to bed. Will be right back.)

Reply

stormcentre:

"Oh, absolutely. The root of the problem is most certainly the judges. If judges aren't seeing a fight the right way, then it doesn't matter what system is in place; I'm definitely not disputing that. I'm just bringing up the point that the 10 point must system in itself is flawed. Fighters that win a round big aren't getting the credit that they deserve. Like my baseball point I brought before, If the Yankees are up 5-0 on the Red Sox after one inning, but the Red Sox score 1 run in the 2, 3, and 4th innings with the way boxing is scored the Red Sox would be up 3 rounds (or innings) to 1 over the Yankees when in fact the Yankees should still up 5-3 because of that huge first round (inning) they had.



The ten point total system definitely isn't the be all end all, I just think that it would be an improvement and a step in the right direction over what we have now. But, again, I agree 100% that the root of the problem is the judges. The judges need to score fights the right way, absolutely. And when they don't they need to be held accountable and I like what oubobcat is saying, the judges need to be judged and graded on their scorecards. Whether it be a weekly report, monthly report, quarterly report, whatever it is there should be a running total of how well a judge is judging fights. And it's especially important for the commissions to do that in their respective state because we only see a fraction of boxing that actually happens. There are tons of 4 round, 6 round fights, etc. that happen every week that we won't see on HBO, Showtime, Fox Sports, ESPN, BoxNation, TV Azteca, etc.



We'll use Julie Lederman for example, she obviously had Diego Chaves beating Timothy Bradley 116-112....that's just an awful scorecard. She should get a major black mark because that's an F scorecard. But, what about the fights that aren't in the spotlight? A couple of weeks before the Bradley-Chaves fight there was a card in New Jersey. Lederman, Al Bennett, and John Poturai scored the majority of these fights and I want to highlight a couple of these fights.



Elvin Sanchez beat Brad Austin by MD. Lederman and Poturai scored the bout 39-36 in favor of Sanchez. Al Bennett meanwhile, scored the fight 37-37. So, the question is, who was right? Did Sanchez clearly beat Austin, or was Bennett right in scoring the fight 37-37?



Here's another fight: Juan Rodriguez Jr. beat Greg Jackson by Split Technical Decision. Lederman and Boturai scored the fight 39-37 in favor of Rodriguez. However, Bennett scored the fight 40-36 in favor of Greg Jackson. Quite the discrepancy in scores, but who's right? Personally, I think Bennett might have been in the wrong, but I don't know, and that's a problem. We, as fans, can only speculate because we aren't watching every single fight that goes on around the world. It's up to the commissions hold their judges accountable for the fights that happen in the dark.



We can, however, hold the judges accountable for fights that do happen with the spotlight on and I think we should do that.



We'll use Levi Martinez for example, in July he had Canelo Alvarez beating Erislandy Lara 117-111. That's a bad scorecard, that's an F scorecard. Before that fight, though, he scored Matt Korobov-Jose Uzcategui (97-91), Terence Crawford-Yuriorkis Gamboa (78-72), and Evgeny Gradovich-Alexander Miskirtchan (117-110). For the most part, these are good scores. These would receive passing grades, although the Crawford-Gamboa fight does seem a little bit off, because I see to recall Gamboa pretty much won the first four round pretty handily, but nevertheless, it's not a horrible scorecard, but not a great scorecard, but the rest are fine.



So, heading into the Canelo-Lara fight you had to think that he would deliver a solid scorecard, but he didn't, for whatever reason. And that would be something to investigate further. Does he favor money GBP fighters? Does he just like the aggressive fighter? Did he just have a bad night? Who knows, but that would be something to dive deeper into.



I don't know, I'm just sort of rambling now. Hopefully, I made a little bit of sense, but it's an interesting topic there's a lot to unpack when it comes to scoring fights, scoring systems, judges, judging judges, commissions, etc."




Good post DD.



Alvarez V Lara is a good fight to use as a case study for evaluating judges.



I personally think judges are not (always) seated in the right position to see whether scoring events really take place as perceived.



Now before everybody says; "Yeh, well Storm that's why there are several of them scattered around the square supporting framework of the ring". . . . . what I mean is that - as far as the vertical plane is considered - their seating position is seriously compromised.



They should be elevated up so they have a reasonably clear and unobstructed view.



There are a few ways to do this, but I am not sure about the best way.



Also, one reason why fighter "A" - who may really dominate fighter "B" for the first round, or the first 3 rounds - only gets (usually) awarded a 10-8 round in his favour; by the current scoring system's standards, is so that fighter "B" has a chance to keep the 10 or 12 round promotion and fight alive.



Take the Pacquaio V Marquez fight (where Marquez was down a lot during the initial stages of that fight) as an example.



But before you do, please be aware of the fact that, I am not saying it is right or wrong . . . but had some judges scored some of the initial rounds of that fight as 10-7 round(s) for Pacquaio - as many thought should rightly happen - then it would be tremendously difficult for any fighter to come back (on the scorecards) from a bad round; regardless of their stamina reserves - thus rendering the fight's outcome (and in some sense it's entertainment and betting value) a foregone conclusion.



They are serious considerations for which some very good arguments - in favour of the judge's position that didn't score and award Pacquaio with more than a 10-8 round for the said Pacquaio V Marquez fight - were successfully mounted.



That Pacquaio V Marquez fight is yet another good fight to use as a case study for evaluating judges.



Finally, what can also be a reasonably misunderstood aspect of professional boxing is that many fighters do not know how to participate in a way that meaningfully acknowledges the scoring system.



Look at Olympic style amateur boxing for example.



Particularly after the computer-assisted scoring system (that in some countries, quite scandalously, for qualifying finals was not even full duplex in a electronic sense; meaning if two judges simultaneously pressed their buttons, only one was registered) was implemented.



What happened there - even when bad scoring and/or the above-mentioned electronic limitations of the system were not prevailing - was that boxers and trainers started to change their game-plans to suit and a new - perhaps less popular - style emerged.



That new style was not always preferred by spectators, and it didn't always transfer across to the professional ranks well (Lara); but it provided the sought after returns and as such it also had a much higher success rate with amateur fights and international medals.



As an ajunct, that new (amateur) style also didn't mean you couldn't rough up your opponent (within the rules) and fight - rather than box - him in a way that would "hurt" him; professional boxing style.



It just mean if you did that and expended gas doing so, it may not necessarily be a wise strategic move.



Now - and this is just food for thought on this subject - as I am not saying the Ten Point Total system is rubbish; more playing the devil's advocate and providing proof and/or examples for that view and why the current system will probably prevail for a little longer.



If the international amateur boxing fraternity can acknowledge how best to compete to any given regulatory structure, why then can't the professional boxing fraternity do the same?



Basically we are saying that - with the current professional boxing scoring system that most sanctions use - once a fighter and his corner feels they have a 10-8 or 10-9 round in the bag, and unless they want to;



a) Hurt their opponent's stamina and/or ability to compete in upcoming rounds, and strategically invest energy in that.



b) Try for a stoppage on their opponent, and strategically invest energy in that.



c) Try for a knockdown and/or count on their opponent, and strategically invest energy in that.



There is very little point expending more energy and putting your efforts into the justifiably/highly subjective and possibly inconsistent perception of the judges.



This brings me to perhaps one of the most watched (for his technical, brilliant, efficient and smooth style) - but also criticised (for his boxing fight-game approach) modern day boxers; Floyd Mayweather.



People seriously criticise Floyd for his so called "safety first" approach when in the ring.



But look at what happened when he fought Saul Alvarez in terms of contingency.



Floyd's understanding of how boxing both works and is scored ensured that, even in the event of what appeared to be a gift scorecard for GBP, there was not another suspicious scorecard to tip the scorecard scales in Oscar or Saul's favour.



Aside from that Floyd almost always performs shut outs and has an unbeaten record.



The Mayweathers don't trust other promoters/influence, judges or the opponent, and neither should anyone wanting to make a career out of boxing regardless of whether you're as outspoken as the Mayweathers or not.



They go into a fight like how most good motorcyclists ride; defensively and thinking anything can and will happen.



And it works for them and their bank accounts.



Floyd and his often disjointed and warring team may be a lot of things but they know boxing and how to win fights in the ring and around the apron.



They know that getting overly/unnecessarily caught up in shootouts and/or always going for the knockout can increase the chances you could lose even if you don't succeed in getting the KO.



Furthermore, overly/unnecessarily getting caught up in shootouts and/or always going for the knockout may not get you the scores you want - even if the KO isn't achieved but you clearly dominated.



This approach is often misunderstood, ridiculed, extremely clever, and (like most top level promotional outfits) full of avarice.



But aside rom the relevant and important point that Floyd is self promoted Floyd's above-mentioned approach is also the professional boxing approaches' equivalent of the aforementioned changes in amateur boxing, that were brought about by clever thinking and of course the new controversial electronic scoring system.



Floyd ensures (as much as possible) that he always throws uncontested and clean punches, that are almost always very easy (for even senior citizens) to both score and see their impact; that's clever.



Floyd ensures he almost always gets full championship rounds in something that puts him way, way, ahead of others in terms of; championship stamina, big fight/lights familiarity, and nervous tension all of which are incredibly advantageous cards to hold in boxing.



The opposite is that is;



a) Taking big risks.



b) Not relying on your superior defensive skills that can and should (officially/technically) provide you with a points advantage on the scorecards.



c) Going for the KO.



d) Hoping to please fans, that will turn on you at the drop of a hat and/or when the next best thing comes along.



e) Giving your opponent an advantage (if you subscribed to points "a", "b" and "c", and were a KO artist; like Tyson was) if he can take you into the later rounds. Notice how, when you look at the really big picture and start engineering meaningful fight strategies that suit your charge's skillset and experience; being a KO artist whilst enormously crowd and network pleasing - has many up and downsides. But being a consistent 12 round upper tier fighter also has particularly for those with a great defence - many up and less downsides plus it's better for longevity in ways that easily/financially surpass the extra money a fighter may earn in his shorter career as a (more exciting and possibly better paid) KO artist.



That list alone - even aside from how it preserves your reputation and health - is both a serious advantage and literally money in the bank that Money simply can't buy; over all up and coming opponents in a sport where at the very top and aside from talent possessed there are usually very few genuine advantages to be found.



This is fighting to the system we have at its finest example, or playing the hand you have.



Floyd ensures that if he is not exchanging - but under attack, it is easy for even senior citizens and/or judges that are poorly positioned/seated to see most of the received punches he takes, either; land on the gloves, are rolled, slipped, or parried, and therefore don't (and shouldn't) score because they had no meaningful impact.



And in that sense (received punches having no meaningful impact) . . . and just for good (public, opponent, and psychological scoring) measure(s) Floyd will often shake his head in a "no" gesture when his opponents attacks are seemingly thwarted - so judges can see the received punches had minimal effect and score it as such.



Aside from being clever, this is the psychological counterpunch (for the scorecards) - to that of the crowd cheering (that often motivates and influences judges) in the thought that Floyd is finally getting tagged and beaten up.



Floyd rarely goes for the knockout and/or kill for many reasons - some that people assume they know of and ridicule him for - and these reasons probably include the fact that Floyd knows, until the current judges and scoring system make it worth it, and whilst he knows how to safely win fights within the existing rules and with his defence; it's simply not worth it and the millions of future dollars in earnings he could lose.



But mostly, in my opinion, when a knockout is there and available for him provided the opponent hasn't pissed Floyd off Floyd doesn't like to knock nice boxers/guys out because he likes people and understands a fighter's life.



Yes, I believe that; as I know and have seen this trait in several fighters.



This doesn't mean Floyd has never fought in a more risky, KO-seeking and crowd-pleasing way - as he did recently (career-wise) against Hatton, Cotto, and Oscar.



Additionally, many of Floyd's fights at the lighter weights were also quite brutal and aggressive; Corrales, Chavez, Ndou . . etc.



What it does mean is that Floyd is a highly evolved (to the system we are discussing) fighter that understands best what winning options suit him, his style, and perhaps more importantly, also the judges and the current scoring/point system.



That's clever in the same way that the Cubans, Germans, Russians, Ukrainians and others adopted a new amateur boxing approach that best suited the rules and scoring system, and it's perceived limitations.



Floyd fights to minimise the risk and both the incompetent and subjective nature of boxing's scoring system, and that's also really clever; even if he may not personally be considered as such.



Notice you rarely hear Floyd explicitly or seriously complain about the professional boxing scoring system, and the overall results. The most Floyd says is that the game is chess and everyone else is turning up with a checkerboard well now you know another reason why Floyd is so confident with that view and has no interest in changing the system.



And why would he want to when he knows most other fighters don't know how to develop or implement a game-plan that best suits the current system and its limitations? The way it is now, (even with his skills aside), with what Floyd knows, he holds most of the cards and advantages; as above-mentioned.



Additionally given how the proposed Ten Point Total system would not remove the human and therefore subjective nature of scoring fights, it may be worthwhile to also consider whether Floyd's approach of (seriously) thinking about meaningful game-plans that are tailor made for the above-mentioned rules, sanctions and circumstances - or even another approach (there actually are other ways of fighting that best, or better, suits scoring frameworks; than just Floyd's), might suit and address the problem we say exists with our current system as we (possibly) discount how many correctly judged and non-controversial fights there are assumed to be around the world.



After all (whilst it is a considerable component), the fact of the matter is that there really is much, much more to both amateur and professional fighting than simply grinding your opponent down in ways that yield you no more, or very little, official advantage; particularly in the eyes of those scoring that usually have never laced up a pair of gloves for a meaningful professional fight.



I mean, if fighters know and/or believe that questionable, scoring, and judges routinely happen . . and they/we all say we know it's hard to change the system . . . then why not change your fight's game-plan where you can to suit the only system we have; at least until the new scoring system is ushered in?



After all it's your career and health that's on the line, and there really are more ways than a KO win to minimize the impact of questionable, scoring, and judges.



Surely all boxers and those managing in the gyms that they attend are not that dumb?



Or are they?



That comment goes more for the latter personnel than the fighters by the way, and I say that as when was the last time you visited a gym that meaningfully emphasized defence as much as it should be?



When was the last time you saw bunches of fighters shadow boxing that regularly integrated the wide array of available defensive moves which are in equal count to boxing's available offensive moves - into their moves . . . and/or get blasted by their trainers for not doing so?



Of course, there's no need to waste time/energy doing that is there?



After all it hasn't served Floyd at all.



Back to the judges and how it's their fault (by the way, I don't say it is or it is not remember my above-mentioned devil's advocate caveat).



The review of judges and their scorecards is a great idea - but as the Commish pointed out it does already happen; albeit in a less accountable/public sense.



Unfortunately, I see that idea - perhaps in a more matured sense and also applied directly to the existing professional boxing scoring system (not the Ten Point Total system we're discussing) - gaining traction easier with the powers that be.



Well, more so than the Ten Point Total system anyway but that's not to say I don't like Ten Point Total system DD.



However, as brilliant as the Ten Point Total system may be I just don't see a future for it in boxing.



Many extremely rich, influential, and powerful companies/people have come into boxing with very good ideas.



Some have sought to change things, and some haven't.



Mostly though, they the majority of them have failed at changing the system to suit their interests or those of the perceived public.



Don't believe me?



Take a look here at someone else's opinion on that matter then . . . .



http://ringtv.craveonline.com/news/372003-dougies-monday-mailbag-209



It's written by Doug Fischer whom, aside from attending most big USA fights, has considerable repute with GBP and in particular their "The Ring" website. Doug is also reasonably popular amongst boxing and its spectators.



It's a part of the first response in Doug's regular mailbag section (that I rarely read) to a fan's New Year's wish list.



"I've only covered the sport for 15 years, but so many entrepreneurs claiming that they would "change the game" have come and gone I can't even remember them all. But here's a few off the top of my head: Mike Tinley and America Presents, Tony Brown (AKA "The Tycoon," or as Don King called him "the black Bill Gates") and his CMX Sports & Entertainment, TV producers Mark Burnett and Jeff Wald with The Contenders series and promotional company, Hip-Hop producers Damon Dash and Chris Gotti with their brief association with Lou DiBella, and even my boyhood idol Ray Leonard with SRL Boxing. These folks entered the sport with millions to spend, sometimes with the backing of billionaires and exclusive network deals or guaranteed TV dates, but boxing chewed 'em up and spat 'em out. I gotta feeling 50 Cent's SMS"





Like most banks and/or wealthy, powerful, and influential enterprise organisations; there are powerful forces at work here in boxing and things have not simply grown and evolved to be how they are now because, both;



a) It doesn't suit those forces.



b) And, they won't push/fight back (seriously if need be) if things start to impact their operational and/or financial activities.



Aside from adoption rates in the ivory towers of boxing; one (or a few) more reason(s) to think the Ten Point Total system won't work is - and this is something that many of us consistently overlook when attempting to redesign the system here are two of those above-mentioned reasons;



a) There are far, far more reasonable and appropriate scorecards delivered than those that raise eyebrows.



(Whether this is true or not - or whether we believe and/or accept it, means absolutely nothing. Because, until that statement can be confidently toppled we can't even begin to mount a reasonable case to even entertain discussing change of the current scoring system; let alone the implementation of the Ten Point Total system).



b) Currently PED/PES use in the sport is a far bigger (and potentially life/death; for fighters and boxing's revenue) issue, and look at what has happened there; despite the fact that its danger, stigma and negativity is far more difficult for the industry to ignore, claim solutions are too difficult/expensive, and explain away with the usual rhetorical rubbish.



And, yes, I am aware of the WBC's recent announcements related to testing.



But let's wait and see;



a) Who does it.



b) How it's implemented.



c) How easy it is to defeat.



d) What the aforementioned powerful forces at work's response is to it.



Finally, welcome to politics and influence at the seriously heavyweight big end of town . . . . and of course boxing; arguably the world's richest, most dangerous, oldest, and most influential sport. Here those that sit in the ivory towers have the power to (and, if need be, regularly do) destroy boxings' most ruthlessly efficient KO and money generating participants; without losing sleep.



And, currently our scoring system and most other associated things are just as those I refer to like it.



Please don't shoot the messenger.

Reply

The Commish:

"I am very interested in becoming a judge in NY. Just some things I have found out on my journey.

They want you to have experience in the amateurs ,not many years but something to prove you are competent.

In NY they do an extensive background check. They check your finances to see if you have money trouble or a history of bankruptcy or owe creditors or child support to the court. You do not want to be open to outside forces for funny business. Most if not all judges have good full time careers and do community service and/or are involved with charities . You must have a good track record ,be a reputable person and provide character references from members of the community.

You can not drink the day off or before the fight.

Like any other job you must pay your dues and be available for all the small cards that are out of the way. There is a yearly seminar that is mandatory.There is not much money in being a judge. You really must love the sport and be passionate because you will not become rich. If you do a good job ,work well with your co workers you will get to be part of the boxing fraternity and be behind the scenes doing what you love.

I'm sure some people get in because of who they know but I can't see too many people doing it for years or decades unless they love the sport. For all the blind judges that fill their scorecards out before the fight it seems there are many good judges out there."


Lol! So, you want to be a fight judge, huh?

-Randy G.

Reply

deepwater2:

I am very interested in becoming a judge in NY. Just some things I have found out on my journey.

They want you to have experience in the amateurs ,not many years but something to prove you are competent.

In NY they do an extensive background check. They check your finances to see if you have money trouble or a history of bankruptcy or owe creditors or child support to the court. You do not want to be open to outside forces for funny business. Most if not all judges have good full time careers and do community service and/or are involved with charities . You must have a good track record ,be a reputable person and provide character references from members of the community.

You can not drink the day off or before the fight.

Like any other job you must pay your dues and be available for all the small cards that are out of the way. There is a yearly seminar that is mandatory.There is not much money in being a judge. You really must love the sport and be passionate because you will not become rich. If you do a good job ,work well with your co workers you will get to be part of the boxing fraternity and be behind the scenes doing what you love.

I'm sure some people get in because of who they know but I can't see too many people doing it for years or decades unless they love the sport. For all the blind judges that fill their scorecards out before the fight it seems there are many good judges out there.

Reply

stormcentre:

"Oh, absolutely. The root of the problem is most certainly the judges. If judges aren't seeing a fight the right way, then it doesn't matter what system is in place; I'm definitely not disputing that. I'm just bringing up the point that the 10 point must system in itself is flawed. Fighters that win a round big aren't getting the credit that they deserve. Like my baseball point I brought before, If the Yankees are up 5-0 on the Red Sox after one inning, but the Red Sox score 1 run in the 2, 3, and 4th innings with the way boxing is scored the Red Sox would be up 3 rounds (or innings) to 1 over the Yankees when in fact the Yankees should still up 5-3 because of that huge first round (inning) they had.

The ten point total system definitely isn't the be all end all, I just think that it would be an improvement and a step in the right direction over what we have now. But, again, I agree 100% that the root of the problem is the judges. The judges need to score fights the right way, absolutely. And when they don't they need to be held accountable and I like what oubobcat is saying, the judges need to be judged and graded on their scorecards. Whether it be a weekly report, monthly report, quarterly report, whatever it is there should be a running total of how well a judge is judging fights. And it's especially important for the commissions to do that in their respective state because we only see a fraction of boxing that actually happens. There are tons of 4 round, 6 round fights, etc. that happen every week that we won't see on HBO, Showtime, Fox Sports, ESPN, BoxNation, TV Azteca, etc.

We'll use Julie Lederman for example, she obviously had Diego Chaves beating Timothy Bradley 116-112....that's just an awful scorecard. She should get a major black mark because that's an F scorecard. But, what about the fights that aren't in the spotlight? A couple of weeks before the Bradley-Chaves fight there was a card in New Jersey. Lederman, Al Bennett, and John Poturai scored the majority of these fights and I want to highlight a couple of these fights.

Elvin Sanchez beat Brad Austin by MD. Lederman and Poturai scored the bout 39-36 in favor of Sanchez. Al Bennett meanwhile, scored the fight 37-37. So, the question is, who was right? Did Sanchez clearly beat Austin, or was Bennett right in scoring the fight 37-37?

Here's another fight: Juan Rodriguez Jr. beat Greg Jackson by Split Technical Decision. Lederman and Boturai scored the fight 39-37 in favor of Rodriguez. However, Bennett scored the fight 40-36 in favor of Greg Jackson. Quite the discrepancy in scores, but who's right? Personally, I think Bennett might have been in the wrong, but I don't know, and that's a problem. We, as fans, can only speculate because we aren't watching every single fight that goes on around the world. It's up to the commissions hold their judges accountable for the fights that happen in the dark.

We can, however, hold the judges accountable for fights that do happen with the spotlight on and I think we should do that.

We'll use Levi Martinez for example, in July he had Canelo Alvarez beating Erislandy Lara 117-111. That's a bad scorecard, that's an F scorecard. Before that fight, though, he scored Matt Korobov-Jose Uzcategui (97-91), Terence Crawford-Yuriorkis Gamboa (78-72), and Evgeny Gradovich-Alexander Miskirtchan (117-110). For the most part, these are good scores. These would receive passing grades, although the Crawford-Gamboa fight does seem a little bit off, because I see to recall Gamboa pretty much won the first four round pretty handily, but nevertheless, it's not a horrible scorecard, but not a great scorecard, but the rest are fine.

So, heading into the Canelo-Lara fight you had to think that he would deliver a solid scorecard, but he didn't, for whatever reason. And that would be something to investigate further. Does he favor money GBP fighters? Does he just like the aggressive fighter? Did he just have a bad night? Who knows, but that would be something to dive deeper into.

I don't know, I'm just sort of rambling now. Hopefully, I made a little bit of sense, but it's an interesting topic there's a lot to unpack when it comes to scoring fights, scoring systems, judges, judging judges, commissions, etc."


Good post DD.

Alvarez V Lara is a good fight to use as a case study for evaluating judges.

I personally think judges are not (always) seated in the right position to see whether scoring events really take place as perceived.

Now before everybody says; "Yeh, well Storm that's why there are several of them scattered around the square supporting framework of the ring". . . . . what I mean is that - as far as the vertical plane is considered - their seating position is seriously compromised.

They should be elevated up so they have a reasonably clear and unobstructed view.

There are a few ways to do this, but I am not sure about the best way.

Also, one reason why fighter "A" - who may really dominate fighter "B" for the first round, or the first 3 rounds - only gets (usually) awarded a 10-8 round in his favour; by the current scoring system's standards, is so that fighter "B" has a chance to keep the 10 or 12 round promotion and fight alive.

Take the Pacquaio V Marquez fight (where Marquez was down a lot during the initial stages of that fight) as an example.

But before you do, please be aware of the fact that, I am not saying it is right or wrong . . . but had some judges scored some of the initial rounds of that fight as 10-7 round(s) for Pacquaio - as many thought should rightly happen - then it would be tremendously difficult for any fighter to come back (on the scorecards) from a bad round; regardless of their stamina reserves - thus rendering the fight's outcome (and in some sense it's entertainment and betting value) a foregone conclusion.

They are serious considerations for which some very good arguments - in favour of the judge's position that didn't score and award Pacquaio with more than a 10-8 round for the said Pacquaio V Marquez fight - were successfully mounted.

That Pacquaio V Marquez fight is yet another good fight to use as a case study for evaluating judges.

Finally, what can also be a reasonably misunderstood aspect of professional boxing is that many fighters do not know how to participate in a way that meaningfully acknowledges the scoring system.

Look at Olympic style amateur boxing for example.

Particularly after the computer-assisted scoring system (that in some countries, quite scandalously, for qualifying finals was not even full duplex in a electronic sense; meaning if two judges simultaneously pressed their buttons, only one was registered) was implemented.

What happened there - even when bad scoring and/or the above-mentioned electronic limitations of the system were not prevailing - was that boxers and trainers started to change their game-plans to suit and a new - perhaps less popular - style emerged.

That new style was not always preferred by spectators, and it didn't always transfer across to the professional ranks well (Lara); but it provided the sought after returns and as such it also had a much higher success rate with amateur fights and international medals.

As an ajunct, that new (amateur) style also didn't mean you couldn't rough up your opponent (within the rules) and fight - rather than box - him in a way that would "hurt" him; professional boxing style.

It just mean if you did that and expended gas doing so, it may not necessarily be a wise strategic move.

Now - and this is just food for thought on this subject - as I am not saying the Ten Point Total system is rubbish; more playing the devil's advocate and providing proof and/or examples for that view and why the current system will probably prevail for a little longer.

If the international amateur boxing fraternity can acknowledge how best to compete to any given regulatory structure, why then can't the professional boxing fraternity do the same?

Basically we are saying that - with the current professional boxing scoring system that most sanctions use - once a fighter and his corner feels they have a 10-8 or 10-9 round in the bag, and unless they want to;

a) Hurt their opponent's stamina and/or ability to compete in upcoming rounds, and strategically invest energy in that.

b) Try for a stoppage on their opponent, and strategically invest energy in that.

c) Try for a knockdown and/or count on their opponent, and strategically invest energy in that.

There is very little point expending more energy and putting your efforts into the justifiably/highly subjective and possibly inconsistent perception of the judges.

This brings me to perhaps one of the most watched (for his technical, brilliant, efficient and smooth style) - but also criticised (for his boxing figh-game approach) modern day boxers; Floyd Mayweather.

People seriously criticise Floyd for his so called "safety first" approach when in the ring.

But look at what happened when he fought Saul Alvarez in terms of contingency.

Floyd's understanding of how boxing both works and is scored ensured that, even in the event of what appeared to be a gift scorecard for GBP, there was not another to tip the scorecard scales in Oscar or Saul's favour.

Aside from that Floyd almost always performs shut outs and has an unbeaten record.

The Mayweathers don't trust other promoters/influence, judges or the opponent.

They go into a fight like how most good motorcyclists ride; defensively and thinking anything can and will happen.

And it works for them and their bank accounts.

Floyd and his often disjointed and warring team may be a lot of things but they know boxing and how to win fights in the ring and around the apron.

They know that getting overly/unnecessarily caught up in shootouts and/or always going for the knockout, can increase the chances you could lose if you don't get it, and it may not get you the scores you want even if the KO isn't achieved but you dominated.

This approach is often misunderstood, ridiculed, extremely clever, and (like most top level promotional outfits) full of avarice.

But it is also the professional boxing approaches' equivalent of the aforementioned changes in amateur boxing that were brought about by the new and controversial scoring system.

Floyd ensures (as much as possible) that he always throws uncontested and clean punches that are easy (for even senior citizens) to score and see their impact.

Floyd ensures that if he is not exchanging but under attack, it is easy for even senior citizens to see most of the received punches don't score and have no meaningful impact . . . and just for good (public/psychological scoring measure) he will often shake his head in a "no" gesture so judges can see the received punches had minimal effect.

This is the psychological counterpunch (for the scorecards) to the crowd (that often motivates and influences judges) cheering in the thought that Floyd is finally getting tagged and beaten up.

Floyd rarely goes for the kill for many reasons - some that people assume they know of and hate him for - and these reasons include the fact that he knows, until the current judges and scoring system make it worth it, and whilst he knows how to safely win fights within the existing rules; it's simply not worth it and the millions of future dollars in earnings he could lose.

This doesn't mean Floyd has never fought in a more crowd pleasing way - as he did against Hatton, Cotto, and Oscar.

Plus many of his fights at lighter weights were quite brutal and agressive; Corrales, Chavez, Ndou . . etc.

It means he is a highly evolved fighter that understands best what winning options suit him, and perhaps more importantly, also the judges and the current scoring/point system.

Floyd fights to minimise the risk and both the incompetent and subjective nature of boxing's scoring system, and that's really clever.

Notice you rarely hear Floyd explicitly or seriously complain about the scoring system, and the overall results.

Additionally given how the proposed Ten Point Total system would not remove the human and therefore subjective nature of scoring fights, it may be worthwhile to consider whether Floyd's approach of (seriously) thinking about meaningful game-plans - or even another approach (there are other ways of fighting that best, or better, suits scoring frameworks; than just Floyd's), might suit and address the problem.

After all (whilst it is a considerable component) there really is much, much more to both amateur and professional fighting than simply grinding your opponent down in ways that yield you no more, or very little, official advantage; in the eyes of those scoring that usually have never laced up a pair of gloves for a meaningful professional fight.

Also, the review of judges and their scorecards is a great idea - but as the Commish pointed out it does already happen; albeit in a less accountable/public sense.

Unfortunately, I see that idea - perhaps in a more mature sense and also applied directly to the existing professional boxing scoring system - gaining traction with the powers that be; more than the Ten Point Total system.

However, as brilliant as the Ten Point Total system may be (and I like it) I don't see a future for it in boxing.

Many extremely rich, influential, and powerful companies/people have come into boxing with very good ideas. Some have sought to change things, and some haven't. Mostly though, they have failed at changing the system to suit their interests or those of the perceived public.

There are powerful forces at work here and things have not evolved to be how they are because it doesn't suit those forces.

One (or a few) more reason(s) to think it won't work is, and this is something that many of us consistently overlook when attempting to redesign the system;

a) There are far, far more reasonable and appropriate scorecards delivered than those that raise eyebrows.

b) Currently PED/PES use in the sport is a far bigger (and potentially life/death; for fighters and boxing's revenue) issue, and look at what has happened there.

And, yes, I am aware of the WBC's recent announcements related to testing.

But let's wait and see;

a) Who does it.

b) How it's implemented.

c) How easy it is to defeat.

d) What the aforementioned powerful forces at work's response is to it.

Finally, welcome to politics and influence at the big end of town . . . and of course boxing; arguably the world's richest, oldest and most influential sport.

Reply

brownsugar:

I think it comes down to when and what weight class. The current, preretirement version of Floyd would get slaughtered by any welterweight version of Ray.



Ray started at 140 I believe.... The Floyd who beat Gatti would have been too tactically adept to lose to the fledgling Leonard. Floyd was too Physically gifted and he was the epitome of calculating, technical. perfection who was gifted with peerless ring generalship and armed with an incectile grace that Leonard had never encountered before. Duran would have been easier. I saw the DeJesus fight live, Floyd could do everything DeJesus did... Only better faster and with a much longer reach. The question is relative to the time period of their respective careers and which weight.

Reply

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FIGHTER Result Rnd

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