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The Good Doctor:

"Thank you, Doctor...Thrown at him, or thrown at you?

I saved my Joe Louis "blasphemy" for my last post as a mod so that I could make a quick getaway."


Sorry I should say thrown at me. (Escapes again)

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ArneK.:

Thank you, Doctor...Thrown at him, or thrown at you?

I saved my Joe Louis "blasphemy" for my last post as a mod so that I could make a quick getaway.

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The Good Doctor:

Awesome piece ArneK. You brought thunder with this one. You always post good stuff and this one stands well with the rest of them.

Now, I may be blaspheming when I say this........................but could you do one and replace the words Joe Louis with Roberto Duran?

(Ran out of the room to duck all things being thrown at him)

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ArneK.:

Another candidate for Provodnikov will emerge in a few weeks when two undefeated welterweights clash at the StubHub Center in Carson, California: Akron's Shawn Porter (24-0-1) vs. England's Kell Brook (32-0). From 147 to 160 pounds, there's an abundance of talent.

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ArneK.:

Appreciate it.

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amayseng:

I like the Kid C but GGG will be spanking him all over that ring


no way TSAH puts him in there to be slaughtered

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The Shadow:

"No boxer has inspired more monuments than Joe Louis. He is the only boxer to have an arena named after him. Statuary dedicated to his memory can be found in places as diverse as the Detroit Institute of Art and Caesars Palace in Las Vegas. He was the first boxer to appear on a United States postage stamp.

The record book testifies to his greatness. After winning the title, he made 25 successful defenses. By contrast, the eight heavyweight champions before him had 18 successful defenses combined.

Louis was lethal in rematches. He avenged his first defeat with a sensational knockout and upended the other seven men he fought twice with wins inside the distance that were briefer than the first encounter. He suffered only three losses in 66 fights -- to a former, a current, and a future heavyweight champion - and two of those losses came after a two-year retirement when his best years were behind him. Nonetheless, I submit that those who insist that Louis was head-and-shoulders above any heavyweight that ever lived are all wet.

The nickname that stuck to Joe Louis was Brown Bomber, but he was also dubbed Shufflin' Joe, a favorite of New York Times sportswriter John Kieran. Yes, Kieran was guilty of insensitivity - or worse - but it was a fairly accurate description of Louis's fighting style.

Joe was an economical fighter -- "dangerous in a tight circumference" in the words of legendary trainer Eddie Futch, an early sparring partner -- but his economy of motion was less a strategy than an involuntary constraint.

Louis had blinding hand speed and could knock a man unconscious with one short punch, but he was remarkably slow-footed for a man of his stature. This was never more apparent than in his 1941 fight with slick Billy Conn who flustered the 27-year-old Louis for 12 rounds until he recklessly charged inside the Brown Bomber's web with his jaw exposed and became another knockout victim.

Joe Louis fought only two fighters of his color during the first 13 years of his pro career, a figure that does not include two quasi- exhibitions with former sparring partners. The first African-American to test him was Willie Davies, a fellow novice. The second was light heavyweight champ John Henry Lewis who was without lateral vision in his left eye when he opposed Louis in 1939.

It wasn't until his 24th title defense that Louis finally risked his belt against a man of color who was a true heavyweight, Jersey Joe Walcott. Louis was younger than Walcott but yet fortunate to beat him in their first of two encounters, winning a widely disputed decision.

In 1937, when Louis won the title, an estimated 35 percent of licensed professional boxers in the United States were black. Their number included Leroy Haynes and Jack Trammell, both of whom would be ranked as high as third in The Ring ratings.

Louis avoided these men -- more exactly his management avoided them; promoter Mike Jacobs had the final say -- in favor of defending his title against the likes of Jack Roper, Tony Musto, and Al McCoy. Roper was an electrician at Warner Brothers Studio who had won barely half of his 99 fights. Musto, a bartender by trade, carried 200 pounds on a five-foot-eight frame, but was a powder puncher with only six knockouts to his credit in 36 fights. McCoy, a beefed-up middleweight, had lost seven of his last 11 starts and was 39-17-6 in bouts outside his native Maine.

During the 1940s, the heavyweight division was fortified by good black heavyweights like Walcott, Curtis Sheppard, Turkey Thompson, Elmer Ray, Ezzard Charles, and Jimmy Bivins. Charles and Walcott would become champions when Louis left the scene, but the others were consigned to a treadmill, fighting mostly other blacks. (Louis eventually fought Bivins and outpointed him in a non-title fight.)

An amazing fact about Louis is that he was favored by odds of 6/1 or higher in 20 of his 27 title fights. This says a great deal about him, but perhaps even more about his opponents.

These comments aren't meant to disparage Joe Louis the man. He became a public figure as America was clawing out of the Great Depression, reached the pinnacle of his fame during a horrific war, and was a beacon of inspiration to millions who were buffeted by this great trauma. "We will win (World War II) because we are on God's side," Louis famously said in 1942 when he was honored for his work on behalf of the Navy Relief Society. Those words, uttered extemporaneously by a humble sharecropper's son with little formal education were words of comfort to those whose loved ones were overseas in the theaters of war.

But that was Louis the man, whose contributions to mankind should be kept separate from Louis the fighter.

"God made only one perfect prizefighter and that was Joe Louis," wrote a boxing correspondent whose work I respect. But I'm compelled to play devil's advocate. In my mind, the Brown Bomber could not have defeated Jack Johnson or Muhammad Ali."


Wow! Awesome piece! A TSS Universe Special if there ever was one! I like it. That's stuff that could go on the front page.

EM, can you copy/paste this to the front? This deserves an audience!

Or maybe not... This should encourage people to join in!

Anyway, I love the perspective you give to his career. And because of the mythical standards we hold our legends to, it almost becomes blasphemous to express something that doesn't support that godly standard.

What it does support, however, is what Radam has said on numerous occasions: every champion is managed, and managed carefully.

The notion of "back in the day, the best fought the best -- not like now," has been proven to be a fallacy. Over and over.

And over.

Truth is every champ was steered carefully. Radam often points out Sugar Ray Robinson avoiding the "Black Murderer's Row." And as you point out, Louis same well. And they had lots of reasons to avoid the black fighters of the day.

Another immortal in Rocky Marciano was moved with guile as well. He has that mythical record, yet only fought at championship level for a handful of fights.

The Rock's successor Floyd Patterson was notoriously carefully managed. For years, Patterson's management -- specifically, Cus D'Amato -- avoided Sonny Liston like the plague, listing excuses such as the mob, Liston's criminal background (which Floyd had, too!) and every other manufactured reason they could think of.

In fact, his team ducked Liston with such vehemence that the honest Patterson felt like a fraud for holding the heavyweight title hostage, finally forcing his management to give Liston a shot in 1962.

Now, Patterson could've continued his spectacular career that had already set several historically significant marks, well before turning 30 at that:

1) the first Olympic gold medalist to become heavyweight champion of the world

2) the youngest heavyweight champion of all time

3) the first to ever regain the world heavyweight championship

Had he continued the course of his up-to-then well-managed career and avoided Liston, Patterson could've held the title until inevitably bumping into Cassius Clay.

Or he could've retired at a young age with many questions unanswered, much like The Rock. Then where would his place in history be?

It would be lofty! (Much like Roy Jones' mythical all-time statues, had he elected to quit after beating John Ruiz.) Just something to ponder.

So Arne, your point is very well taken. The immortal Joe Louis, much like most champions in history, were carefully managed by those who invested in them.

As for his skill-set for A-Z? I tend to agree with you. I'm not familiar enough with Jack Johnson to agree or disagree (he's simply too boring for me to watch) but I definitely believe Muhammad Ali beats him, easily at that, by virtue of dimensions and ability.

That said, I also believe the aforementioned Liston beats him -- again, by virtue of ability and dimensions.

Liston's jab would be too much, the power would be too much -- George a Foreman has said that Liston was the only person EVER who stood toe-to-toe with him and forced him to box off the back-foot -- and his underrated boxing smarts would be troublesome as well.

All that said, slow feet aside and overmatched opponents aside, Louis was an awesome fighter. His clinical dissection of opponents is a beauty to behold.

At least from I can see on those black/white films. Lol.

Again, awesome piece. Thanks

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ArneK.:

I love boxing at the grassroots level. Young promoters like Dmitry Salita are the lifeblood of the sport. The make-up of this card certainly has a Brooklyn flavor to it. Brooklyn has to be one of the most ethnically diverse places on the planet.

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Radam G:

Happy BIG 1, tS. I'm getting slow. Normally, I would have picked it up and gave tS a shout out. Holla!

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Radam G:

Terence Crawford is pretty sharp and definitely can go down in history as the best from the Cornhusker State."Top Rank has announced that Terence Crawford will defend his lightweight belt against Raymundo Beltran on Nov. 29. The fight will be staged in Omaha, Crawford's hometown, where he scored his most impressive triumph, a TKO9 over Yuriorkis Gamboa in his last outing....

McCarty, from sparsely populated Hitchcock County, was considered the best of the "white hope" heavyweights, arguably the only good one in the bunch. His death at age 21 in 1913 -- he collapsed and died after absorbing a light punch to the heart in the opening round of a bout in Calgary -- stands as one of boxing's most mystifying moments.

"
On another subject, TSS Reader/Poster Spit Bucket started an awesome Thread about damages of body punching. As ev'ybodee and dey momma probably know, I gave my two cents.

With McCarty falling dead from "a light" body shot over a century ago, and umpteen pugs falling dead since in similar ways -- four in the P-Islands and two in on the mainland USA this year, that I'm aware of -- why do our sport not give the same about of copy and studies to from torso-related deaths versus the stereotypical head ones?

Holla to me, somebody! Holla!

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The Shadow:

"Me too.In his last two fights, Kid C was getting out boxed and walked down by Gabe Rosado before the Dr stopped the fight on cuts in the 10th round.. Kid C went the distance against a long in the tooth and under-weight Konecny. Not too impressive when compared to what GGG has been doing. Kid C might be tough and strong but weak on the boxing skills. I see no advantage for Kid C over GGG.

Boxing ability goes to GGG
Speed goes to GGG
Power goes to GGG
Experience goes to GGG
Chin might be equal -both have good chins."


Have you ever seen Quillin in and around the New York boxing scene?

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The Shadow:

I was going to start a new thread but I'll just say it here...

These last two weeks have been the strongest on the competition, in my view.

Arne has put on a TREMENDOUS mod run with a variety of informative post, participating in the debates, steering the discussions and been Steve Smoger-esque in letting the talks take their course.

The topics have been plentiful and we've seen lively debates on both sides of the fence. It's just been clickin' on all cylinders, whether the discussions have been mythical matchups, blasts from the past, expert, publication level breakdown of PEDs or just (sweet) scientific dissections of the absolute highest order.

On top of that, many of the top guys have been bringing, really going for gold by bringing their best traits and putting them to the forefront. I honestly wouldn't want to judge this one.

I can see at least five guys legitimately taking 1st place and I wouldn't have an issue with either.

And then we've even had a trainer join in to take on the Commish!

I really think this period has shown TSS, if not from its best side, then close to it. If this keeps up, we might have to monetize this wealth of knowledge by charging subscriptions.

According to the numbers, at any given time, we have the regulars carrying the load but close to 30,000 (!) just absorbing the wisdom.

What's up win y'all? I see you peekin' but you ain't speakin'?! Join in!

Also, today is my 1-year anniversary.

I'm freakin' glad I joined.

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Radam G:

"Excellent choice. And yes, that Dude was far out. He ran into the Roast and ran for the hills."

Hehehe! The Roast straight-up "El Douche" bagged him. OMG! Hehe! Holla!

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The Shadow:

"Thanks for the support "El Shadow""

Always, my dude.

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deepwater2:

Good news that Top Rank is investing into Omaha. Beltran is tough ,should be a good fight and a packed house. Crawford has the chance to become top star.

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Radam G:

"Golovkin is supremely skilled. Ward will pump a few punches then come and grab. What makes you think that after a few rounds Golovkin won't figure out what to do and give him some leather he can't handle? I don't see the fight happening soon, I hope not anyway. I'd much more prefer to see Golovkin reign supreme as the undisputed king of the 160 division. After a few defences of that crown when his legacy in the division is cemented, then he should further advance his position in the all time rankings by challenging Andre Ward and any other champion at 168."

Three 3g has one history -- and that is cobra striking. And his trainer has him doing that to the death. Trainer Abel Sanchez's has always preferred cobra-like striking pug. His best known fighter is Terry Norris. Go and holla at Terry's old fights. And be honest. And you will see the same cobra moves in him that 3g is using nowadays. As it is said in this game: "$ame old $yet. Different time. Different Playa . Terry had a china chin. Three g has an iron one. And it's going to take intense heat to melt it.

Three 3g is good -- very good -- but the present crop of middle that he's fought have been accommodating his crobra-ism. He is more cobra than Froch. And many cannot see it because of inattention blindness by his pop and bang. But with certain types of fighters, he cannot hang. Holla!

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flackoguapo:

Yeah I think it was a Pacquaio vs BradleyII post after the fight happened and he was describing how/why he thought Bradly won. It was a crazy read lol...Great pick in Amayseng and looking forward to these next two weeks!

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deepwater2:

"Kid Chocolate will melt under the glare of the Kazakh sun.



I'd love to see the fight made!"




Me too.In his last two fights, Kid C was getting out boxed and walked down by Gabe Rosado before the Dr stopped the fight on cuts in the 10th round.. Kid C went the distance against a long in the tooth and under-weight Konecny. Not too impressive when compared to what GGG has been doing. Kid C might be tough and strong but weak on the boxing skills. I see no advantage for Kid C over GGG.



Boxing ability goes to GGG

Speed goes to GGG

Power goes to GGG

Experience goes to GGG

Chin might be equal -both have good chins.

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The Commish:

I have to believe that Brandon Rios is going to be ultra-impressive in his upcoming bout against Diego "I Just Got My Visa" Chaves. Rios said his new weight division is Welterweight.

"I'm a 147-pounder now, and that's where I am going to stay," he told Gerry Cooney & me on our SiriusXM show on Monday.

"I killed myself to make 140. I don't kill myself to make 147. I feel strong at the weight."

With that, expect Rios to take care of business this weekend against Chaves, judging by the impressive training camp Rios had, perhaps his best ever. Following the Chaves fight, I'd love to see him face Ruslan Provodnikov. The fight could not be anything less than a top candidate for "Fight of the Year" honors. No running. No mauling. No clinching. Just brawling.

Let Rios first take care of business against the tough Diego Chaves.

Then: Rios-Provodnikov.

Let's get it on!

-Randy G.

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amayseng:

"Excellent choice. And yes, that Dude was far out. He ran into the Roast and ran for the hills."

Thanks for the support "El Shadow"

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Skibbz:

Golovkin is supremely skilled. Ward will pump a few punches then come and grab. What makes you think that after a few rounds Golovkin won't figure out what to do and give him some leather he can't handle? I don't see the fight happening soon, I hope not anyway. I'd much more prefer to see Golovkin reign supreme as the undisputed king of the 160 division. After a few defences of that crown when his legacy in the division is cemented, then he should further advance his position in the all time rankings by challenging Andre Ward and any other champion at 168.

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The Shadow:

"Dang! That was cold, tS! But is likely what SOG will do to 3g. Three g reminds me of a cobra -- just striking and striking -- not the bit of aware of an on-coming mongoosized stealth encounter.

I say that 3g remains smart g-g-g and stay at one-sixty. And don't get in the same zip code with SOG. Team 3g don't want nona-ur-dat . Holla!"


Precisely. Too much filth and stealth is not good for your health.

He don't want that work.

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thegreyman:

Kid Chocolate will melt under the glare of the Kazakh sun.

I'd love to see the fight made!

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Radam G:

Dang! That was cold, tS! But is likely what SOG will do to 3g. Three g reminds me of a cobra -- just striking and striking -- not the bit of aware of an on-coming mongoosized stealth encounter.

I say that 3g remains smart g-g-g and stay at one-sixty. And don't get in the same zip code with SOG. Team 3g don't want nona-ur-dat . Holla!

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The Shadow:

"I anticipate finding out this Friday where negotiations between the GGG camp & Quillin camp are. Quillin will be my in-studio guest on SiriusXM from 6-8pm.

We've got a lot to talk about.

-Randy G."


Colgate Quillin is not to be messed with.

If he's on point, he could take his new Colgate smile and make the Good Boy lose his, HBK-style.

Or the other way around.

Either way, I'd like to see that fight.

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The Shadow:

"Don't be hating on my Girl Serena, I've never even seen her on a Proactive commercial. I always see the one with Adam Levine and I always want to choke slam him while watching it. If Serena trained as a fighter she would beat 3G. I don't know if she could make 160 but if she could he would get TKOed in 5."



Oh, no doubt!



Five?? Why so late?



Paulie would edge her, though.

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The Shadow:

"Good point Commish! I should have said revisited it. I never got through it the first time.


El dude, wow, what a trip, el dude needed some el medicine.


Thanks Commish I will do my best!"


Excellent choice. And yes, that Dude was far out. He ran into the Roast and ran for the hills.

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The Shadow:

"Grimm, the only question which I can pose against your informed opinion is aimed at Andre Ward's chin. I strongly believe that when, and it will happen, Golovkin lands his shot on Ward, the Son of God will drop to his knees in submission to the man blessed with power that can seemingly only come from something beyond the realm of the man. If Ward believes that his life has been preordained for greatness and his is a path destined for greatness, than the shocking realisation that only the hardest blow can bring will provide the necessary wake up call to his delusions. I am not argue against religion or a notion of a God, simply arguing that Ward will tumble like those before him.

His chin is not the one that can handle the punch of a Golovkin. We have seen him dance to the canvas in a way that would make Trout's two step and slide look simple. It's hard to believe that Ward, even with all his ability, would be able to evade Gennady for 12 3-minute rounds whilst winning them tough rounds and tying him up. It becomes even more compelling when you factor in the argument how rusty the Son of God must be, with his perpetual inactivity that he so stubbornly decides to resume without thought for his fans or his pugilism.

I don't know who out there can beat Gennady between 160-168. At 160 the market has been cornered and the belts are ripe for Gennady to pluck. The real challenge lies in his inevitable campaign at 168. He is not a natural super-middleweight, the fights will certainly be closer, but I still see the skill and power riding through to give the Kazakh fire brand victory."


You're on fire, aren't you?

Contrary to popular belief, Ward actually has a good chin. Remember, Muhammad Ali got floored a lot in his younger days, too.

Besides, I don't think GGG will land a clean shot on him. It reminds me of the hype prior to Pavlik vs. Hopkins.

Sure, Kelly's got that firepower but if you can't land a clean shot, what does it matter? I'm not sure Golovkin can land a clean shot on Ward. Too elusive and crafty. He's almost impossible to hit on the inside when he smothers an opponent.

Where GGG's chance lies is downstairs -- he may get him to the body.

All in all, it also comes down to temperaments. GGG is a predator in the ring. But Ward is a hybrid of a stone-cold assassin and vicious, nasty pit bull.

I could easily see something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdg9gkmWsEA

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Radam G:

The Kid Chocolate Q is beginning to not feel 3g. Maybe they are both blind and can't see. They need to sit down and drink some Dill Weed Tea. And quit talking about the sparring sessions, and have a bout. This way, they can remove any doubts. "I've whupped his @$$," one of them could then SHOUT! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSwg98SJKvY. Holla!

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thegreyman:

Ward is supremely accurate and intelligent, in both his offence and defence. He is exceptionally physically gifted, with superb reflexes.

Ward has two serious flaws though, that will make him shark bait for GGG.

As Skibbz has pointed out, his chin isn't rock solid, which is certainly an attribute you need if you plan to beat Golovkin over 12 rounds. If guys so notoriously 'durable' and 'tough' as Proksa and Geale went down so fast and hard, how will Ward fare? Not well.

And it will go 12 rounds- because Ward lacks power. He punches with surgical precision, but without the hurt to knock Golovkin off his tracks for 12.

Reply
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Boxing Results

FIGHTER Result Rnd

Gennady Golovkin

Daniel Geale

TKO Rd. 3

Bryant Jennings

Mike Perez

SD Rd. 12

Ola Afolabi

Anthony Caputo Smith

RTD Rd. 3

Dusty Hernandez Harrison

Wilfredo Acuna

UD Rd. 8

Julian Rodriguez

Yankton Southern

KO Rd. 1

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