The Good Doctor:
You guys are so much smarter and deeper than me. I think you have to have 10-10 rounds and the reason is simple. Boxing scoring by definition is subjective, therefore all results must be considered due to the fact that there are no restrictions in judgement.Reply
Gamboa? when has he fought last? 2 years ago?
I will take Crawford
"Interesting analogy with baseball and calling a ball or strike. I'm ok with an even round, provided it's used as judiciously as a 10-8 round with no knockdown, and not simply as an out due to indecision. Bowe-Holyfield 1, Round 10. I scored for Bowe, 10-9, thought he did the greater damage. But Holyfield was the champ, so does he get a slight edge as the incumbent? Holyfield came on strong, turned the tide, and was winning the latter part of the round. Are the final 45 seconds more important, weighed more heavily, than the first 45 seconds? Ray Leonard deliberately flurried against Hagler at the end of each round in order to influence the judges. Going back to Bowe, I'd certainly have no qualms about that round being scored even. I believe Kellerman likes to say that when in doubt, he asks himself which fighter he'd rather be, and I'm with that."
I agree with the which fighter would I have rather been.
"You make a good argument and I suppose 10-8 can be used in some situations. But if you carpet bomb a guy for the full round the ref can step in and stop it, step in and give a standing 8 ( which makes it a 10-8) or the fighter getting bombed that bad should get knocked down. So yes a 10-8 without a knockdown can be awarded but it shouldn't be easy . The key is getting competent judges in there."
To me a 10-8 round is a knockdown or if you stagger a guy all over the place where he is clearly hurt.
Interesting analogy with baseball and calling a ball or strike. I'm ok with an even round, provided it's used as judiciously as a 10-8 round with no knockdown, and not simply as an out due to indecision. Bowe-Holyfield 1, Round 10. I scored for Bowe, 10-9, thought he did the greater damage. But Holyfield was the champ, so does he get a slight edge as the incumbent? Holyfield came on strong, turned the tide, and was winning the latter part of the round. Are the final 45 seconds more important, weighed more heavily, than the first 45 seconds? Ray Leonard deliberately flurried against Hagler at the end of each round in order to influence the judges. Going back to Bowe, I'd certainly have no qualms about that round being scored even. I believe Kellerman likes to say that when in doubt, he asks himself which fighter he'd rather be, and I'm with that.Reply
I don't like Gamboa's chances against Crawford, the Nebraskan will make the Cuban pay for his poor habits in the square jungle!Reply
With all the talk regarding Shumenov I wouldn't be surprised if we see an upset, but I have not seen enough of him to make a prediction.Reply
Congratulations guys all three of you contribute beautifullyReply
The fight should still happen, and I think Bob will make it once he's milked Manny enough.Reply
"Could it be the first shot towards ending the cold war? This day may live in infamy"
Quite possibly? I hope so, knock down those walls!
Shumenov reminds me of a Mongolian Holy field... Deep heart..not as good but formidal nonetheless. I wouldn't be surprised if he shocked Bhop....he'd better be on his toes.Reply
"And why not a 10-8 round without a knockdown? You're overrating the knockdown. It's the same as saying, no, you can't have an inside the park home run, you have to hit it over the wall. What are we, playing in Lil Jimmy's backyard? You carpet bomb a guy for 180 seconds, whal-la! 10-8."
You make a good argument and I suppose 10-8 can be used in some situations. But if you carpet bomb a guy for the full round the ref can step in and stop it, step in and give a standing 8 ( which makes it a 10-8) or the fighter getting bombed that bad should get knocked down. So yes a 10-8 without a knockdown can be awarded but it shouldn't be easy . The key is getting competent judges in there.
Excellent discussion. Nice to sit back and just read without feeling the need to participate for the first time in 16 days. I look forward to more from the reign of ArneK. You are killing it so far Arne.Reply
"Yeah deep, but for every Marc Ratner and Randy Gordon, you get hundreds of clueless government appointees who have literally no idea of what they're looking at which begs the question, 'who is judging the judging of the judges?'
If you think I'm wrong on this, then you don't have any firsthand experience in this arena."
No I agree with you. Political hacks ruin the sport. If you give these same judges the power of the 10-10 , I see them ripping off the clear winner of the round even more often then they do.
I picked Shumenov also .Reply
The fans want it even if it past it's due date. It will gross the most money in history. Floyd might even be favored 2-1 by the books . I still think PAC has a chance to pull it off. The fans deserve this fight. Floyd was upset and nervous because when it was time to make the fight years ago PAC was the the favorite 8-5. Floyd wants that 0 at any costs. He thinks if he retires 49-0 he can be mentioned with Robinson or better. Just make the fight before time runs out.Reply
dino da vinci:
And why not a 10-8 round without a knockdown? You're overrating the knockdown. It's the same as saying, no, you can't have an inside the park home run, you have to hit it over the wall. What are we, playing in Lil Jimmy's backyard? You carpet bomb a guy for 180 seconds, whal-la! 10-8.Reply
dino da vinci:
Yeah deep, but for every Marc Ratner and Randy Gordon, you get hundreds of clueless government appointees who have literally no idea of what they're looking at which begs the question, 'who is judging the judging of the judges?'
If you think I'm wrong on this, then you don't have any firsthand experience in this arena.
I hear you, the clown judges really do give the sport a black eye. I don't want 10-8 rounds without a knockdown or 10-10 rounds if it's close. Many rounds are close and can go either way but the judges have to pick a winner of the round. I think too many wishy wash judges would be calling way too many rounds even. I think judges should be reviewed and have to explain their scores while watching video with the commission. The sport needs top notch judges.Reply
dino da vinci:
Oh, we can spend hours on this topic. First, I spearhead the class that demands 10-10 rounds.
Here is why.
I prefer to use the same examples over and over, as to make as few enemies as possible. So when I do, I tend to site the best of the best (Money May) or the worst of the worst. (Depends on the topic.)
Some years ago, I managed a fighter named Anthony Johnson, a clever boxer out of Cleveland. He's fighting Tony West at the Great Western Forum. The worst official in sports history is one of the three judges. My kid wins three of the four rounds. However, in the third, my kid hit Tony with so many shots over the course of three minutes with nothing of note being returned that I started to score it, you ready...pause...even with no knockdown...pause for effect...10-8. Thought better of it, it was right on the line of where a round leaves 10-9 and enters 10-8.
Score is announced, guess who gives ALL four rounds to the opponent, yep, Gwen Adair.
And I may not have remembered this piece of inept work, because, well, she has an astounding body of work if it wasn't for Dean Lohois calling me the following day and asking me how I scored my kids fight. Shared the story I just shared with you. He said he too almost scored it 10-8 but that he too brought it back to 10-9.
So, the Queen of there are no even rounds possibly had a three point swing in a no knockdown round. If you take away a 10-10 round possibility, with today's never ending pool of incompetent judges, you quite quickly create a 2 point swing potential. In the sport of boxing, it's tough enough to beat the guy in front of you trying to rip your head off, without having to overcome someone with the unearned title 'judge' who can't decipher close rounds.
And deep, there are many even rounds, so why would you want to possibly reward the wrong guy?
I respect your opinion, Randy, but you still haven't convinced me. I'm guessing that on your trips to Las Vegas, Flip Homansky, the ring doctor, sometimes joined you and Chuck Minker. I haven't talked to Flip since he and Dr. Goodman stopped working the fights, so I don't know the reason why they left the scene. What I do know is that the local fight game lost two good people.Reply
Mike Perez is going to have to snap out of the funk he was in for his last fight. If he doesn't, the smooth-boxing Bryant Jennings is going to throw a shutout against him. However, if the Mike Perez who was in that war against Magomed Abdusalamov shows up, this could be a FOY candidate.
Wow! A fighter who didn't turn his back on his longtime promoter. A salute to Jean Pascal.
Domenic--In the Gerry Cooney chapter I am writing, Gerry gives up a lot about his relationship and feelings towards his managers, Dennis Rappaport and Mike Jones, better known as the "Wacko Twins."
I really believe that, with different handling, guidance and development, Cooney would have beaten Larry Holmes.
If you like Cooney and want to talk with him, he is my co-host every Monday & Friday on SiriusXM Radio, channel 92 from 6-8pm (ET). You can call us toll free at 1-866-522-2846. If you were a big fan of his before, you will be a bigger fan of his once you speak to him.
He really lives up to his nickname.
"Gentleman" Gerry Cooney.
Arne, I smiled when I read of your friendship with Chuck Minker. Chuck had two "best" friends. One was, as you stated, Marc Ratner. The other was me. On the many occasions I went to Vegas, it was at Minker's house I would stay. On those occasions, we would stay up through most of the night and talk about boxing. We were like two kids in a toy store. You should have seen us when Kayo Cards came out with Chuck Minker & Randy Gordon cards!
I never liked seeing a round scored even. My friendship with Minker made me dislike 10-10 rounds even more. From the time I became Commissioner in New York, I was quite vocal to my judges about how I felt about even rounds. I asked them to do their best to refrain from scoring any round even. I said watch the round and then tell me who won. My judges listened. Very rarely did they ever turn in a card with a 10-10 round.
Many rounds are extremely close and competitive (see Manny Pacquiao v Timothy Bradley I). To score a round even is too much of a crutch. Allowing a judge to score a round even will give you scores (in rounds) of 3-2-7, 2-1-9 and worse. I don't mind seeing 10-8, 10-7 and on a few occasions, a 10-6 round. The points are there. Use them.
But please don't use those 10's on both sides of a round!
I'm down for even. Literally, I've seen times where I thought it was even steven. And after seeing the video, it was exactly that way.
In "the theatre of the unexpected," anything and everything is possible.
I've seen fighters KTFO win fights. I've even saw a bout, where a mommy got into squared jungle and started beating the hebejeebeez outta the cat who was whacking and attacking her son.
I've seen a second kayo a referee. I've even seen a badly beaten fighter get off the stool and tap the ring girl on the arse to get D'Qed.
You never know what da haps will be in this "theatre of the unexpected" and bizarre. Holla!
"During my lifetime, few sportsmen were as well-respected as Chuck Minker. Minker was the executive director of the Nevada Athletic Commission from 1987 until 1992 when he died of a rare form of lung cancer at the age of forty-two. His best friend, Marc Ratner, was named to succeed him.
Minker was the consummate sports junkie. Although best known for boxing (he judged numerous title fights before becoming commissioner), he officiated all sports in various capacities, from slow-pitch softball to NCAA basketball.
He and I had a friendly disagreement with respect to scoring a round "even." He was adamantly opposed to it and I believe that his influence is largely responsible for the fact that the practice is less common today. In supporting his position, he liked to use the example of a home plate umpire. If the batter doesn't swing, the ump has to call it a "ball" or a "strike." There is no other alternative.
I argued that, to the contrary, some rounds were simply too tight to favor either side. I did concede that the "even" option should be used sparingly. The scoring of the Italian referee in the first Leonard-Duran fight was a bit much. His card favored Duran 3-2 with 10 rounds even. But, hey, at least his card was consistent with his colleagues and with the general opinion that Duran won the fight (although many in the ringside press scored the bout for Sugar Ray).
Anyway, perhaps we'll continue the debate in the afterlife. Until then, what's your opinion of scoring a round "even" ?"
Nope. It would make it even more complicated. it is very hard to have an exact result from both boxers in a given round. The rules are good as they are but its the judges that have to do some work. no one can have the same effective aggression,clean hard punching, defense and ring generalship in the same round. its almost mathmatecally impossible.
Oops. The ref was actually a Filipino, Carlos Padilla. He did not have a scorecard.Reply
Redemption is a powerful thing true character from the ashes of defeat and despair this leaves me feeling so happy Lil Tiger found it and peace and at the same time sad that the story is over thanks again for humanizing someone who would have otherwise been just a name on a pageReply
Jose Felix Jr.
Who will win #MayweatherMaydana?