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dino da vinci:

Look, let's pretend the godson of a dictatorial self-appointed-for-life president of a sanctioning organization strips a real champion, in order for godson to fight a guy who barely has a pulse for the now vacant title. Godson wins. You're fighting godson next. Why on gods earth does he get the ties? Red Sox win the World Series and they are recognized as world champions. They playing any extra inning ball games this year?

Gotta tell ya, for an overall intelligent group of guys, you are missing the boat on this. Big time.:mad:

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The Shadow:

"And you'd be wrong in doing so."

Perhaps. But that's just my interpretation of the championship advantage. I'm just an armchair judge, thankfully! :)

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The Shadow:

"I think the UFC people were smart to cap bouts at 25 minutes, maximum.

A lot of people beefed when boxing went from 15 to 12 rounds for title fights, but I remember Ring historian Herbert G. Goldman predicting that any future changes would continue the downward trend. New technologies seem to have reduced our attention span.

It's a funny thing about "time." It's quantifiable but also subjective. A robust 12-round fight, e.g., Barrera-Morales (pick one), goes by in a snap. A fight with mostly posing and/or clinching seemingly takes forever.

A British writer (I forget his name) likened watching a really dull fight to standing on a train platform on a frigid day awaiting a late-arriving train."


It really does. A 12-round fight is really 12 battles in one, by virtue of the scoring system, where different stories can unfold, which lends itself well to riveting drama.

The original UFC bouts -- intrigued by the barbaric violence, I remember buying a UFC DVD in London featuring Ken Shamrock -- were really just long and boring unless it was a mismatch. Then it would end spectacularly. (But isn't that the case in boxing also?)

I think this is why they cut it from 30 minutes of continuity to avoid the dreadful monotony of hugging.

Even as I practiced BJJ, which I started about six years ago, and could gain an artistic appreciation for their grappling, it's still boring as hell. Just like soccer is fun to play but boring to watch.

MMA is ever-evolving but seems to finding its identity nicely.

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dino da vinci:

And you'd be wrong in doing so.

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The Shadow:

"Wrong mod, Shadow. That was supposed to be delivered for the last one. Probably why you didn't chart. :-/

Just say in'"


You're right.

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The Shadow:

"@Storm. Can you please reword it, because I think I disagree with you, but I'm not sure. And I think this would be the first time.

@ everyone who has ever asked me what it means by 'you have to take the title from the champion.'

Here's what it means.

Example. Please assume we live in a perfect scoring world. Picture three Pat Russells sitting ringside.

Fight begins.

First round challenger does just enough to win it. Russell sees that and scores the round accordingly.
This continues for five more rounds. Challenger leads 6-0. Champion proceeds to win the next six rounds and we go to the scorecards. With the score six rounds apiece, it's a draw. Champion retains title.

That's it.

There is no point where any timeframe has greater value. First 30 seconds have no greater or no less value than any other 30 second block of time. Last 30 seconds? The only difference with the last 30 seconds of every round is the happens to fall in the last 30 seconds of the 180-second period of time. Of course, there's a mountain of judges who only score this portion of the round, and why, god only knows. Hey, it just occurred to me that we should only pay them 1/6th of their pay.

No round has greater value. Round five has the same value as round nine. Or ten. Or twelve.

Because it would then be a matter of 'exactly where do we rob the challenger?' At the end of the fight when we tabulate the scorecards? Give the champion every close round? If the champion is so great, he shouldn't of fought a close round.

Recap.

Whoever wins the round gets the round scored in their favor, and by the margin that's appropriate. Then knockdowns and points deducted for infractions such as low blows, etc. are added in and voila! Onto the next round. Fight ends, add the total scores and the one with the most points wins. Simple really. The only thing different about a fight when a title is at stake is if the fight ends in a tie (draw), the title stays with the titleholder. Yes, you could argue that if the champion is supposed to be the best, shouldn't he have to be the one to successfully defeat the challenger and leave no doubt. But let's leave that for another day."


I also see champion advantage is getting the benefit of the doubt in rounds you would otherwise be inclined or tempted to score 10-10.

Not saying the challenger has to win every round convincingly, though philosophically, I'm sure many feel that way.

But simply as one measure of scoring. If a round is up in the air, give it to the champion rather than scoring it even -- if in fact even it was.

I believe the champion should get the benefit of the doubt in those rare cases where a round is too close to call.

I applied this same logic in my scoring of Hopkins-Dawson II. I believed Hopkins had accumulated so much "bad will" while also fighting the lingering impression that Dawson would beat him unless something crazy happened, the fight was viewed through that lens.

Or watching the fight from "Dawson's perspective," while working under the impression that Hopkins was "old."

Judges are humans, humans have biases, and biases shape our perceptions. That's just human nature.

But I digress.

All that being said, in the rare case of completely, evenly matched rounds, I would give the edge to the champion.

Reply

dino da vinci:

Wrong mod, Shadow. That was supposed to be delivered for the last one. Probably why you didn't chart. :-/

Just say in'

Reply

ArneK.:

I think the UFC people were smart to cap bouts at 25 minutes, maximum.

A lot of people beefed when boxing went from 15 to 12 rounds for title fights, but I remember Ring historian Herbert G. Goldman predicting that any future changes would continue the downward trend. New technologies seem to have reduced our attention span.

It's a funny thing about "time." It's quantifiable but also subjective. A robust 12-round fight, e.g., Barrera-Morales (pick one), goes by in a snap. A fight with mostly posing and/or clinching seemingly takes forever.

A British writer (I forget his name) likened watching a really dull fight to standing on a train platform on a frigid day awaiting a late-arriving train.

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The Shadow:

Until Al Haymon gets involved, of course. Then you can kiss MMA goodbye, it will die.

UFC fighters are notoriously underpaid. If he came around and actually got the performers compensated fairly, oh man, the fans would lose and the sport will vanquish.

It would rip the integrity of the sport as fighters would no longer be fighters but reduced to selfish professional athletes with no concerns for what fickle fans want.

I hate professional athletes. They're so selfish. How dare they make money.

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The Shadow:

It definitely isn't, Dino.

Boxing is definitely bigger globally, not that there's a competition between the two. I don't know how this boxing vs MMA stuff started. They are more complementary products than competing products.

A good analogy is Formula One vs. Tour De France. It's both racing but totally different means, rules and so forth. Or badminton and tennis. Or even tennis and table tennis.

MMA is still establishing itself globally. Right now, while growing, from a mainstream sports perspective, it's as obscure as can be, as fringe as fringe gets. Just call them WBO.

Domestically, however, the UFC the benefit of having a platform and a pretty loyal fan base. But I think that has more to do with the UFC brand rather than the sport itself.

Beyond Dana White's promotional powerhouse, I don't think casual fans bother to watch whatever other leagues exist out there.

Not to mention, boxing has a rich history. Part of the allure and appeal of boxing, I believe, is the element of nostalgia; being able to look at today's fighters and compare them to the icons of yesteryear.

I was watching Ali-Quarry 2 the other day. In those days, they would bring in old champions, for that whole nostlgia effect tht everyone eats up.

A lightweight champion by the name of Roberto Duran was fighting on the undercard. Just before the fight, some (historically fringe) former lightweight champion, whose name escapes me, was introduced.

Yet as he was introduced, the announcer said, "surely he would take out the current champion Duran with rather ease." I'm paraphrasing a bit since I don't remember it verbatim but that was the gist of it.

That speaks to that nostalgia element, too. Of course, you have barbershop chats like the famous scene in Coming To America.

MMA doesn't have that same cultural and historical wealth. It doesn't elicit the same type of emotion.

But then again, it's a completely different sport, still evolving, still finding its identity.

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dino da vinci:

We were combining shows in CR and I'd have to say without a doubt the MMA bouts had much more overall action.

I once went to a Billy Joel/Elton John concert. I happen to be the worlds biggest Billy Joel fan. If I was to have scored it fairly, I would have to have given it to John in a close effort. Maybe it's the iconic Benny and the Jets and Saturday Night is alright for Fighting, but the energy ticked up just a tinsy winsy bit. Hey, on second thought, let me score it for Joel.

That said, there's something romantic about boxing that I've never really been able to put my finger on the why of it.

MMA is not. Nor do I find any other discipline to be so. Also, I'm not so sure UFC/MMA is bigger globally than boxing.

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dino da vinci:

@Storm. Can you please reword it, because I think I disagree with you, but I'm not sure. And I think this would be the first time.

@ everyone who has ever asked me what it means by 'you have to take the title from the champion.'

Here's what it means.

Example. Please assume we live in a perfect scoring world. Picture three Pat Russells sitting ringside.

Fight begins.

First round challenger does just enough to win it. Russell sees that and scores the round accordingly.
This continues for five more rounds. Challenger leads 6-0. Champion proceeds to win the next six rounds and we go to the scorecards. With the score six rounds apiece, it's a draw. Champion retains title.

That's it.

There is no point where any timeframe has greater value. First 30 seconds have no greater or no less value than any other 30 second block of time. Last 30 seconds? The only difference with the last 30 seconds of every round is the happens to fall in the last 30 seconds of the 180-second period of time. Of course, there's a mountain of judges who only score this portion of the round, and why, god only knows. Hey, it just occurred to me that we should only pay them 1/6th of their pay.

No round has greater value. Round five has the same value as round nine. Or ten. Or twelve.

Because it would then be a matter of 'exactly where do we rob the challenger?' At the end of the fight when we tabulate the scorecards? Give the champion every close round? If the champion is so great, he shouldn't of fought a close round.

Recap.

Whoever wins the round gets the round scored in their favor, and by the margin that's appropriate. Then knockdowns and points deducted for infractions such as low blows, etc. are added in and voila! Onto the next round. Fight ends, add the total scores and the one with the most points wins. Simple really. The only thing different about a fight when a title is at stake is if the fight ends in a tie (draw), the title stays with the titleholder. Yes, you could argue that if the champion is supposed to be the best, shouldn't he have to be the one to successfully defeat the challenger and leave no doubt. But let's leave that for another day.

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deepwater2:

Cool. That's the mike Tyson I like! IMP might be a big outfit in the future

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deepwater2:

"MMA, or at least the UFC brand of it, has surpassed boxing in global popularity. I was aware of the numbers, but it never really hit home until former UFC star Chuck Liddell turned up as the answer to a trivia question on the TV game show "Jeopardy."



I have yet to meet a boxing fan of my vintage who follows MMA closely. The late, great Bert Sugar had no use for it. "It's really bad boxing," he said, "combined with one guy sitting on top of another, punching him in the face. Where's the martial part? Where's the arts part?" (I pilfered this quote from Allen Barra's obit of Sugar in the online edition of the Atlantic Monthly.)



Flipping through the TV the other night I stumbled on a female MMA fight and it was exactly as Sugar described it -- and completely unwatchable.



There's definitely some talent in MMA. I don't doubt that guys like Liddell, Anderson Silva, Georges St. Pierre, and Jon Jones could have transitioned successfully to boxing. But I just can't get into it -- and it's right here in my backyard. Then again, I'm a traditionalist so maybe it's just me. I'm still pissed that there's a designated hitter in baseball, and that's been around for 40 years."




Nope. Don't like it. I'm friendly with coach Ray Longo and Matt Serra though and I respect that these guys train nonstop. As far as the sport I find it hard to watch. It's not a street fight either because if you try and bend an arm in a street fight an eye is getting poked out or something worse since there are no rules. I actually will be going by my friends in a week or so for some mma fight party but it's just to catch up with old friends not the actual fights for me. We will argue all night about which is more entertaining boxing or mma and there never is a winner. He won't concede. This is the same guy that used to have everyone over for boxing. De la Hoya fights,Trinidad fights,Tyson fights,Roy Jones fights. I brought him and his son to the GGG Stevens fight and they loved it so maybe there is hope that he will come back as a big fan.

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dino da vinci:

I love each and every one of you with all my heart. That said, I'm taking none of you with me to Boxing Nirvana that I'm building. Guys, if some of these lame ducks can't get the easy rounds scored properly, why would you trust them with indistinguishable rounds? Really? If they can't see the skyline of Manhattan, then why would you want these boxing scholars splitting atoms to find a winner of a round?

You ask: Who would I rather be?

How would you like to be the guy who's on the receiving end of a great deal of incoming, go out for the next round, run some risks, earn the round (albeit by the narrowest of margins you can earn a round) and have some non-knowing-full-time-hamburger-stand-owning maniac give the round to your opponent?

After you give this question much consideration, in order to get the correct answer, go find someone who has had the experience of having won a fight only to have to watch someone else's hand get raised. You can do this anywhere in the world, day or night, with junior flyweights or super heavyweights. Be nice to the junior flyweights (aren't they cute? They look like little people doing grown-up activities. I always want to tell them not to run with scissors! But I have digressed...). Now, argue your side vehemently along with being antagonistic to anybody three weight divisions or more than yourself. And, well, you just might end up dead.

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stormcentre:

I agree with RG.

They can come out even and when/if they do, they should; otherwise it favours one guy over the other if/when they are really close/even and the judge must chose a "winner" (of the round).

Philosophically though, I am unsure whether it would be accepted amongst the sanctions, fighters and other boxing aficionados.

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ArneK.:

Yo, Admin....I wouldn't want to mod unless I could do it as well as Editor Mike, and i can't....

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The Shadow:

"He's been signing guys non stop recently. Especially 140-7'ers. Presumably with the same message... "i'll feed and cloth you well, and take you to your world title son."

Surely one or two of them must have clocked that there's not enough belts for the all of them?"


It's not about trinkets. It's about that check.

He's diversifying his portfolio in cunning fashion. He owns light heavyweight. Hopkins, Dawson, Stevenson, Shumenov.

If he gets Chavez, he has 168 on lock, domestically (Hearn owns most of that), and Andre Ward might have to partner up as well.

He's also starting to add to his cruiserweight collection. So evil.

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oubobcat:

I think this is a smart move by Golden Boy as well as a just move. Herrera fought very well against the champion at 140, Danny Garcia, and could very easily have gotten the nod in that fight. If the rematch if Garcia cannot happen, this is the next best move for his career. Fighting on a high profile PPV will keep Herrera's name relevant, make him a nice payday and maybe even collect a belt if he fights Perez.

From Golden Boy's perspective, Herrera generally makes entertaining fights especially if matched properly. If Perez does end up being the opponent, then this stylistically is a great matchup up. Perez comes forward and likes to mix it up on the inside. Herrera has shown in the past if pressed that he will exchange. There will be exchanges and they will go toe to toe at times. What is not to like about this fight from a fan's perspective?

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oubobcat:

I saw him fight a few times on tape and never thought he was that good. He was able to make a lot of money in Germany fighting guys that he should handle easy. The one time his people took a risk, against Virgil Hill, it was a very calculated move as Hill had just beat Henry Maske in Germany and had name recognition over there. So the risk was worth the reward and the gamble paid off as Michalczewski prevailed with the best win of his career. But after that the competition level was never very strong and his management was satisfied with making lots of money with relatively easy fights.

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oubobcat:

I will not score a round 10-10. In my opinion, in each round there has to be something to separate one combatant from the other. Its like the old "rule" in baseball about a tie going to the runner. But if you really think about, is there ever really a tie situation. No, either the ball got their first or runner's foot touched the base first. There is no real "tie" in that case. And the same principle can be used for scoring a close round. Somebody had to have an edge, even if very slight and thus they would deserve to win that round.

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oubobcat:

I like this card a lot and this really goes back to what HBO's Boxing After Dark was all about when the series debuted in the 90's. We have two very competitive fights and the styles of the combatants in each bout should make for very entertaining bouts as well. To me, this is what I want to see from a regular basis from either Showtime or HBO. Yes I want to see the stars but also I want competitive action packed fights. That is what this card certainly is and the only thing I am disappointed about is that it did not end up on the east coast so I could attend.

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oubobcat:

This is a horrible matchup of styles. First of all, I like Crawford a lot but as we have seen from some of his fights if he is not matched properly they can turn out to be quite lackluster. Gamboa can be explosive but this is generally only when it is safe. If he faces an opponent who poses a threat, he tends to lay back and fight very cautiously.



I see both men being very tentative and simply trying to pick their spots throughout the fight. They will each look to counter and search for mistakes while not trying to take any chances. I see a very dull fight tactical fight with a very low punch output from both men. Lets hope the promoter and HBO are smart enough to see this and look to steer both fighters in a different direction.

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oubobcat:

This is a horrible matchup of styles. First of all, I like Crawford a lot but as we have seen from some of his fights if he is not matched properly they can turn out to be quite lackluster. Gamboa can be explosive but this is generally only when it is safe. If he faces an opponent who poses a threat, he tends to lay back and fight very cautiously.

I see both men being very tentative and simply trying to pick their spots throughout the fight. They will each look to counter and search for mistakes while not trying to take any chances. I see a very dull fight tactical fight with a very low punch output from both men. Lets hope the promoter and HBO are smart enough to see this and look to steer both fighters in a different direction.

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oubobcat:

Shumenov has good skills. Generally, I also do not buy into the fact that experience beats youth and skill. However, Hopkins has used his vast experience in recent fights to out smart his much less experienced opponents. I expect Shumenov to pose some issues but Hopkins will find a way, mostly by stealing some close rounds, to win a tight decision.

Reply

admin:

Arne, my man, you wanna Mod?? ---Editor Mike

Reply

ArneK.:

I cringe whenever a boxer over the age of 40 enters the squared circle. But then I'm reminded of Archie Moore who had 219 pro fights (perhaps even more), answering the bell 1474 rounds (the comparable numbers for Hopkins are 64 and 482). Archie Moore was lucid well into his 70s and, for all I know, right up to the very end. But Archie was a freak of nature.

Most people know that BHop lost his first pro fight. Here's another oddity. The main attraction on that card pitted Saoul Mamby against John Meekins. Mamby had his last pro fight in the Cayman Islands at the preposterous age of 60 (shame on the promoter; whoever that was), so if Hopkins wants to be the ultimate greybeard, he has quite a ways to go.

For the record, Mamby lost his last fight to an opponent with a listed record of 6-21-1 who would go on to win only two of his next 17 fights. Hopkins is forewarned. Say goodnight Bernard, you have already cemented your status as one of the most remarkable athletes of all time.

As for a selection, I'm with Carmine Cas. I don't know enough about Shumenov to venture a pick.

Reply

amayseng:

Shumenov looked solid all around from what I saw, he also seems very well composed.

I favor Hopkins, but at 49 anything can happen.

Great overall card though, and on Showtime not PPV

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The Commish:

This could very well be Bernard Hopkins' toughest fight. Gotta' give him a round of applause for taking on Beibut Shumenov.

Late last year, Hopkins told me he intended to carefully watch Shumenov in action against Tamas Kovacs. B-Hop was ringside to witness Shumenov's three knockdown destruction of Kovacs. He liked what he saw, and now is hours away from facing his taller, younger opponent from Kazakhstan.

While many veterans and authorities believe this will be the end of the line for Hopkins, and while I feel it will be a close, competitive fight, I see Hopkins using his decades of ring experience to show Shumenov and the rest of us just why he is a future Hall-of-Famer. He will nullify Shumenov on the inside, even tire him out. From the outside, B-Hop will keep the pace just as he wants it to be, controlling the action with his terrific jab.

I see this one going deep...probably the distance. When it does, B-Hop will have won for the 55th time, while Shumenov will have lost for just the second time.

-Randy G.

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Shoulder Roll Defense:

TC by decision if this fight actually gets made. TC is as skilled as Gamboa and has better ring IQ/ring generalship than the Cuban. The longer Crawford will fight behind his jab and switch back and forth between orthodox and southpaw, thus neutralizing the hand speed of Gamboa. Hand speed would be the only advantage Gamboa would have in the matchup.

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Battle Hymn - Part 9: Gone to Glory

Live not for battles won. Live not for the-end-of-the-song. Live in the along. —Gwendolyn Brooks Anyone looking for Aaron Wade in the early 1970s could find him at the Anchor Rescue Mission, a storefront church located at 1253 McAllister Street. It was in the Fillmore district, only a few blocks from the flat he rented thirty years before. Much had changed. Between 1940 and 1970, the black population in San Francisco shot up from 4,846 to 96,078. In 1956, a federally-funded urban renewal project began in the Fillmore that saw large...

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watchqmaravillaqattribecagetchancetowinmartinezcottotix Press Release
Watch "Maravilla" At Tribeca, Get Chance To Win Martinez-Cotto Tix

PRESS RELEASE "MARAVILLA" PREMIERE AT TRIBECA FILM FESTIVAL OFFERS MOVIEGOERS CHANCE TO WIN TICKETS TO SERGIO MARTINEZ VS. MIGUEL COTTO AT MADISON SQUARE GARDEN WHAT: To kick off the premiere of "MARAVILLA," at the Tribeca Film Festival (TFF), presented by AT&T, lucky moviegoers will have a chance to win tickets to the Martinez vs. Cotto championship fight. As a special gift to lucky fans who purchase tickets to the "MARAVILLA" film premiere, three pairs of fight tickets will be given away to the Martinez vs. Cotto bout taking...

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collazosupportingnephcurefoundation Press Release
Collazo Supporting Nephcure Foundation

LUIS COLLAZO SUPPORTING NEPHCURE FOUNDATION ONCE AGAIN IN VEGAS BATTLE VS. AMIR KHAN ON MAY 3 MAYWEATHER CARD LAS VEGAS (April 16, 2014)— Former WBA Welterweight World Champion boxer Luis Collazo will once again demonstrate his support for The NephCure Foundation when he meets Amir Khan in a critical confrontation May 3 as the co-featured bout on the blockbuster Floyd Mayweather card at the MGM Grand in Las Vegas. When he knocked out Victor Ortiz before his hometown fans Jan. 30 at Barclays Center in Brooklyn, Collazo entered the ring...

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